Improving ATF
#51
Posted 14 July 2011 - 07:34 PM
Reynold N. Hoover
Assistant Vice President, Law & Risk Management,
CSX Intermodal, Jacksonville, Florida
He joined CSX Transportation as its Assistant Vice President for Police & Infrastructure Protection in May 2007. In that capacity, Reynold is responsible for CSX’s Police Department and Infrastructure Protection programs, securing a 21,000- mile rail network, along with the company’s critical infrastructure assets in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. He also represents CSX on matters relating to national rail security policy. Prior to joining CSX, Reynold was appointed by the President of the United States as a Special Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Senior Director for Nuclear Defense Policy on the Homeland Security Council within the Executive Office of the President. In that capacity, Reynold was responsible for leading domestic nuclear defense policy issues and was responsible for coordinating national continuity of government policy.
Reynold also served as the Director of the Office of National Security Coordination in the Department of Homeland Security’s Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA); and as Chief of Staff for then-FEMA Director Joe M. Allbaugh, responsible for the day-to-day operations of the agency and for executing the priorities and policies of the FEMA Director.
Reynold earned a Bachelor of Science degree from the United States Military Academy and a Master’s Degree from Birmingham-Southern College. He also holds a law degree from The Catholic University of America’s Columbus School of Law and is a graduate of the U.S. Army War College.
Anyone have a suggestion as to how we can get Congress to recommend this man to be our next leader? Nothing against Traver, but he has been a part of the broken SES system for too long, and we need someone with outside leadership experience, a law background to know when ATF and DOJ attorneys are lying, and a street background to relate to those in the field. Reynold Hoover worked the streets, understood explosives quite well, and worked great with the Regulatory side of the house. He has even prosecuted criminal cases in federal court, so he truly has accomplished many things on his own merit.
chase
#52
Posted 13 July 2011 - 07:33 PM
A little bird told me that ATF Lab Services is still running NIBIN into the ground. Wasted another $400,000 by not shutting down over 30 sites they already agreed needed to be shut down. Wasted $450,000 the previous quarter by not getting around to shutting down the sites they already agreed on shutting down. That is $850,000 in the past six months pissed away. Over $20,000,000 in the past two years wasted on sites that don't produce and everyone agrees needs to be shut down. I heard that Risenhoover complained to DOJ IG and they did nothing. It is only a matter of time till they go after him. The government is broke and ATF can't be bothered to save $20,000,000. NIBIN is a great program and works well in big cities. No one listens and keeps on driving the bus into the river. Why????Pinacolada,
It sounds like some DIO/Area Sups unique interpretation of instructions. I've been told by IOI's who worked for DAD McCabe when he was a DIO he had the exact same policy but if you finished your assignments and traveled home without staying overnight he never said a word, because it saved the Bureau money. He just didn't want IOIs spending most of their shift driving or running up milage on personal vehicles by driving back and forth on the same assignment.
Zorro, haven't a clue what ATF's mission is in Denmark but i'm willing to "take one for the team" and go on a fact finding mission...
#53
Posted 13 July 2011 - 06:08 PM
It sounds like some DIO/Area Sups unique interpretation of instructions. I've been told by IOI's who worked for DAD McCabe when he was a DIO he had the exact same policy but if you finished your assignments and traveled home without staying overnight he never said a word, because it saved the Bureau money. He just didn't want IOIs spending most of their shift driving or running up milage on personal vehicles by driving back and forth on the same assignment.
Zorro, haven't a clue what ATF's mission is in Denmark but i'm willing to "take one for the team" and go on a fact finding mission...
Lone Wolf
#54
Posted 13 July 2011 - 02:46 PM
Congress needs to trim some fat in this regard. People can and would run the agency as GS-15s. No retirement PCS, 20% pay hikes, "incentives", etc. Without even trying to be specific, seems like 500,000-1 mil could be saved on bonus payments alone.
If I am missing anything, someone please chime in.
#55
Posted 13 July 2011 - 10:16 AM
occasionally we had some issues with our OSHA inspector - this guy had personal issues, serious ones and took them out on the companies he inspected. i could see most of the issues were or had to be, plain and simply, he was unhappy with his life, he was short so the napolean complex was strong, and it was apparent the only satisfaction he got was demonstrating what authority he had by his inane citations. I kid not when i say we knew that at night, he must have laid out aspirin tablets on a table and practiced giving them a headache.
i finally found the cure - we had a secretary here, cute as a button with a personality that was golden and she always wore the nicest perfume i'd (or anyone) ever smelled. We let her assist him on his tour of the plant, offering him coffee, answering his questions etc. Wow what a difference in his reports a basic simple move like that made.
Problem with ATF mgmt or Medusa is, what or how do you appease them to get them to conduct themselves in something approaching a fair and professional manner?
but again, back to my basic assertion - there is no way you or anyone not involved with Medusa, can truly appreciate the depravity of their conduct.
#56
Posted 13 July 2011 - 09:53 AM
With the number of innocent lives destroyed and lost by incompetent or arrogant ATF management, I think the word "evil" would aptly describe them. No other federal law enforcement agency has this level of problems and I have worked with all of the major ones.After 20 years I have come to the very same conclusions. And while I have no doubt that other gov agencies operate like this to some extent, I have yet to talk to the attorney who represents agents from various agencies not say, "I've never seen anything like it" about ATF. I have always felt that one of the reasons it was so much worse at ATF in this regard was that before Waco, most people had never heard of ATF. It was much harder to get any type of media coverage (and then political help) b/c of this. And if you did get someone to finally listen, what you told was usually so unbelievable, that you were just written off as a nut.
Also Ralph, loved your "Medusa" analogy. The main attorney who used to handle all the cases against the agents was a Michelle Davis King. She represented the agency in it's personnel actions, as well as represented everything wrong and twisted in ATF. She trained Eleanor Loos if that tells you anything. Anyway, bless her heart, Ms. King was not an attractive woman and her hair was very curly. My attorney, the late Prather Randle, started calling her "Medusa", and we never referred to her as anything else. When I looked at her, I saw pure evil. It was obvious that she truly enjoyed what she did and was not merely an attorney for ATF after a personnel action, but that she was up to her very unattractive neck in the conspiracies to go after any agents who dared stand against HQ, and no despicable act was beneath her. I don't think I've ever been as personally offended by another human being in my life. She was truly representative of what HQ was all about and I see that not much has changed - there are just new names.
Since there is so much confusion between the fine agents in the field and snakes in HQ, maybe instead of referring to "ATF" when we talk about the corruption in HQ, we can just refer to "Medusa".
Like in Waco when DOJ needs some dirty work done they know to come to ATF
#57 Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Posted 13 July 2011 - 09:39 AM
After 20 years I have come to the very same conclusions. And while I have no doubt that other gov agencies operate like this to some extent, I have yet to talk to the attorney who represents agents from various agencies not say, "I've never seen anything like it" about ATF. I have always felt that one of the reasons it was so much worse at ATF in this regard was that before Waco, most people had never heard of ATF. It was much harder to get any type of media coverage (and then political help) b/c of this. And if you did get someone to finally listen, what you told was usually so unbelievable, that you were just written off as a nut.. Reading how they treat their agents, I can only assume mgmt conducts itself the way it does solely for the pleasure of being evil. I know that has to sound harsh, but there’s no other explanation and per glenn beck, makes me want to wrap my head in duct tape to keep it from exploding. They apparently take enjoyment from demonstrating their power, irregardless of the harm they cause to their agents, the industry or the public, with the more vile the position they can take, the more arrogance they've demonstrated, which apparently generates the most pleasure or satisfaction.
They get away with it or have, simply because the American public would never believe it – nor the audacity of it.
Also Ralph, loved your "Medusa" analogy. The main attorney who used to handle all the cases against the agents was a Michelle Davis King. She represented the agency in it's personnel actions, as well as represented everything wrong and twisted in ATF. She trained Eleanor Loos if that tells you anything. Anyway, bless her heart, Ms. King was not an attractive woman and her hair was very curly. My attorney, the late Prather Randle, started calling her "Medusa", and we never referred to her as anything else. When I looked at her, I saw pure evil. It was obvious that she truly enjoyed what she did and was not merely an attorney for ATF after a personnel action, but that she was up to her very unattractive neck in the conspiracies to go after any agents who dared stand against HQ, and no despicable act was beneath her. I don't think I've ever been as personally offended by another human being in my life. She was truly representative of what HQ was all about and I see that not much has changed - there are just new names.
Since there is so much confusion between the fine agents in the field and snakes in HQ, maybe instead of referring to "ATF" when we talk about the corruption in HQ, we can just refer to "Medusa".
#58
Posted 13 July 2011 - 08:31 AM
Years ago they use to put out a list of awards, both cash and comp. time that was given to every Agent all the way up the chain. I think that was some part of the Black Agent Law Suit. Whatever happened to that list getting published? Sure was interesting to see all the 8 hours of comp time awarded and then the 5 figure bonuses going to the SESs.
#59
Posted 13 July 2011 - 08:13 AM
What will never make sense to me is ATF mgmt’s motivation in their conduct. I’m a simple guy - a guy robs a bank, the motivation is easy to discern – he wants the money inside. Before this website I assumed their motivation was simply anti-2nd amendment with some arrogance developed from lack of accountability. Reading how they treat their agents, I can only assume mgmt conducts itself the way it does solely for the pleasure of being evil. I know that has to sound harsh, but there’s no other explanation and per glenn beck, makes me want to wrap my head in duct tape to keep it from exploding. They apparently take enjoyment from demonstrating their power, irregardless of the harm they cause to their agents, the industry or the public, with the more vile the position they can take, the more arrogance they've demonstrated, which apparently generates the most pleasure or satisfaction.
Sandy Davis – to be clear, I’ve no issues with inspectors. In general, the couple of bad experiences were irksome, at worst, and due to their lack of knowledge of the regs, and even that is understandable as FFl inspections are probably, at most, 3% of their workload with Alcohol & Tobacco compliance being the dominant workload. Those two areas, I’m sure the regs are the same as the FFL regs, kind of like the IRS tax code, mind boggling. It’s been the constant 180 degree cycling of rulings that ATF Washington seems to enjoy generating, that has amounted, as Len Savage referred to it, “enforcement by ambush”. They have put citizens that have made purchases in full compliance of the regs, then they’ll change or twist the “interpretation” of those regs while openly acknowledging they are putting those individuals into felony violation status retroactively. They get away with it or have, simply because the American public would never believe it – nor the audacity of it.
You guys putting this stuff out there makes the industry realize the corruption at ATF HQ is more serious than we had thought, and helps give the industry issues credence - that’s my primary reason for supporting this website. On the reverse side, the industry issues becoming more public helps give the true picture of ATF mgmt more depth, and has to help the agents' cause.
#60
Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:48 AM
Meanwhile, BOLO for this bit of intel this year - SES bonuses are to be limited to 5% (no more 20% pay hikes) for 2011 and 2012. Please post any incidents of non-compliance.
http://www.chcoc.gov...nsmittalID=3997
Does anyone know what ATF's mission is in Denmark?
#61
Posted 12 July 2011 - 09:39 PM
#62
Posted 12 July 2011 - 08:46 PM
#63 Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Posted 12 July 2011 - 07:55 PM
The law enforcement agents are in SHARP contrast to the snakes running the agency. Polar opposites! We bash "ATF" because of what it does to it's agents. And agents think highly enough of other agents, and generally have such a high level of integrity, that putting their jobs on the line to defend their fellow agents is a common occurrence. My attorney said to me once, "I've been suing the federal government for 30 years and this is the first time I've ever seen co-workers (in this case ATF agents) show up to tell the truth on behalf of my client". And they showed up with bells on! Sadly, every single one of my witnesses (agents) were either fired or suspended the first working day after their testimony. This was 20 years ago.
This retaliation was happening long before I came along and is obviously still going on today. That is why everyone gave you such a hard time. We assumed that you were an agent, and all agents know this is a long-standing, deeply ingrained pattern of behavior on the part of "ATF". The suggestion that agents stop complaining and work with HQ to correct the problems really is a far-fetched fantasy and would be insulting if coming from another agent who knew better.
Please accept my apology. I can easily see why if the LE agents are your only experience with ATF, you would stand up and defend them - good for you as they are indeed an impressive group! It also explains why you sincerely thought these agents could just sit down with "ATF" and work everything out. It would be a reasonable assumption, that like the agents, the managers are people of integrity also. They're not and they haven't been for the 20+ years I've been around. They are as sinister as the agents are honorable. And yes, there are bad agents and good managers, but both are few and far between. Few bad agents, few good managers. It really is the damnedest thing.
Again - sorry I gave you such a hard time. Anyone who has such a deep respect for ATF street agents, is a friend in my book.
Sandy
#64 Guest_old school_*
Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:08 PM
Thank you Chainsaw. Working with my state and local partners was the best part of my 20+ years with ATF and I was always honored to work with the "real Police". Thank you for your service.All off you that are upset with Chainsaw assumed that I worked for ATF, which I do not. No Vince, I don't have a $100,000 go along to get along gig. I am a local police officer who works very closely with ATF Agents and my salary is only around $45,000 a year. ATF helps us out when the FBI and DEA won't even return our phone calls. ATF has helped our city by taking the worst criminals federally and locking them away for a long time. ATF Agents hit the streets with us, make buys with us and kick in doors with us (with search warrants of course) on a regular basis. ATF Agents are more like street cops than any other federal agency.
Sandy Davis, I didn't say anything about Fast and Furious or Agent Terry. You are the one who brought the Terrys into the conversation. This website was up and running and the ATF bashing was going on long before Fast and Furious ever made headlines. I was simply saying that ATF is stocked with good agents who do good work and also has those of you who arent happy and may be better satisfied somewhere else.
I am grateful for the relationships I have developed with the ATF Agents that I work with. They are a bunch of good guys, unlike the way this website portrays ATF.
Not all management is bad - and not all agents are good. I regret the personal attacks and dirt that are brought up on this website but those that do it have a right to speak their mind. Because of retaliation some have nothing left to lose and few options or recourse left available. It is a very lonely road some of these guys are walking and I have walked a mile or two of it myself. I would like to come forward and have positive meetings and talks with managment but I have lost faith in our system and I do not trust that my retaliation will not occur again. I am not putting my family thru that again. I have also learned there is very little confidentiality in ATF so you cannot really open up about anything anyway. I don't think this site is the answer to our troubles but it has certainly gotten the attention of management and others. I don't like the world seeing our dirty laundry but there are reasons it evolved to this point. Its hard to do the job and keep good morale when you here about the things some of the bad managers get away with. Double standards for some. Unfortunatley I have learned A LOT about what really goes on with ATF by reading this site. I don't like to hear this stuff, I am ashamed of it, but at least I am being told what is happening.
I have no answers but I hope things can get better.
#65 Guest_ONCE PROUD_*
Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:01 PM
http://oversight.hou...ss_due_7-18.pdf
From a letter by Senator Grassley and Congressman Issa to Eric Holder released this morning:
We have recently learned that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) has afforded potential witnesses for the Committee's investigation into Operation Fast and Furious access to a shared drive on its computer system replete with pertinent investigative documents, including ATF e-mails. Although our staff has been advised the Department has since terminated access to this document cache, we write to seek additional information relating to this egregious decision. We also ask that you promptly self-report this matter to the Office of Inspector General (OIG).
As we understand it, the shared drive contains the documents that have been produced to the Committees through the course of our investigation, those made available for in camera review and possibly documents that the Department of Justice (DOJ) has not yet provided to the Committee. These witnesses had not previously seen many of these documents.
Allowing witnesses access to such documents could taint their testimony by allowing them to tailor their responses to what they think the Committees already know. Additionally, witnesses who gain access to documents they have not previously seen could alter their recollection of events. This practice harms not only our investigation, but also the independent investigation that you instructed the Inspector General to conduct.
Good God! Someone please put this agency out of it's misery!
One witness who had access to these documents informed us of this questionable practice:
Q: What other documents have you gone through other than your emails?
A. A couple of the things that have been produced. They put a link on our computer, some kind of drive that I can click on and read things that have been produced. So I do that every once in a while, but not normally.
Q: And what is the purpose of that, to your knowledge?
A. Just to refresh my recollection about what is out there, you know.
Q: So you have a link on your computer so that you know what we have been provided by Justice?
A. Yes. There is a link in our computer for Gunrunner, Fast and Furious produced to Congress, and there is updates every once in a while of those documents that are being produced.
#66
Posted 12 July 2011 - 04:20 PM
From a letter by Senator Grassley and Congressman Issa to Eric Holder released this morning:
We have recently learned that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) has afforded potential witnesses for the Committee's investigation into Operation Fast and Furious access to a shared drive on its computer system replete with pertinent investigative documents, including ATF e-mails. Although our staff has been advised the Department has since terminated access to this document cache, we write to seek additional information relating to this egregious decision. We also ask that you promptly self-report this matter to the Office of Inspector General (OIG).
As we understand it, the shared drive contains the documents that have been produced to the Committees through the course of our investigation, those made available for in camera review and possibly documents that the Department of Justice (DOJ) has not yet provided to the Committee. These witnesses had not previously seen many of these documents.
Allowing witnesses access to such documents could taint their testimony by allowing them to tailor their responses to what they think the Committees already know. Additionally, witnesses who gain access to documents they have not previously seen could alter their recollection of events. This practice harms not only our investigation, but also the independent investigation that you instructed the Inspector General to conduct.
One witness who had access to these documents informed us of this questionable practice:
Q: What other documents have you gone through other than your emails?
A. A couple of the things that have been produced. They put a link on our computer, some kind of drive that I can click on and read things that have been produced. So I do that every once in a while, but not normally.
Q: And what is the purpose of that, to your knowledge?
A. Just to refresh my recollection about what is out there, you know.
Q: So you have a link on your computer so that you know what we have been provided by Justice?
A. Yes. There is a link in our computer for Gunrunner, Fast and Furious produced to Congress, and there is updates every once in a while of those documents that are being produced.
#67
Posted 12 July 2011 - 11:13 AM
#68
Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:58 AM
Sandy Davis, I didn't say anything about Fast and Furious or Agent Terry. You are the one who brought the Terrys into the conversation. This website was up and running and the ATF bashing was going on long before Fast and Furious ever made headlines. I was simply saying that ATF is stocked with good agents who do good work and also has those of you who arent happy and may be better satisfied somewhere else.
I am grateful for the relationships I have developed with the ATF Agents that I work with. They are a bunch of good guys, unlike the way this website portrays ATF.
#69
Posted 11 July 2011 - 10:38 PM
again, i'm not atf but industry. Chainsaw - from the industry side, i can tell you point blank, i've seen, on a predicatable basis, deceptions, illogical rulings & decisions from ATF HQ (often reversing a previous decision) since the mid 1990s, all delivered with unbridled, shameless arrogance that i have never in my 61 yrs on this planet, seen anywhere else (I've got ruling letters on hand that have made attorneys shake their heads). To say ATF management has been reptilean would be an understatement (and i use that metaphor clinically, not vindictively, and i utter it with all due respect).
Up till now i had thought ATF management was simply hiper-anti 2nd amendment, in spite of their self-described mandate in 1974 that they were there to "assist" the industry. Reading the threads here regarding how ATF management has treated it's troops (ie the field agents) tells me it a combination of anti-firearms sentiment with a heavy heavy dose of arrogance from years of no accountability. I've been lied to by Theresa Ficaretta, as Chief Counsel every time i came into contact with her. She has stood rulings that were established decades ago, on their ear and put untold civilians into felony violation status RETROACTIVELY with a smugness that i cannot even fathom. Theresa - i do hope you're reading this. As someone with a law degree, she can't claim ignorance of ethical standards AND YET SHE HAS CONVINCED ME AND A NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS PRACTICING FIREARMS LAW THAT SHE HAS NO ETHICAL STANDARDS WHATSOEVER.
For the love of anything holy, how does ATF management tell a dealer in Houston for 9 months to go thru with straw sales that that dealer had called into ATF concerned about, and then turn around and actually charge that dealer with making suspicious sales and straw sales??? All for a few minutes of positive press for themselves and their "gunrunner" program. Sad, they didn't have the IQ to look 2 steps ahead & realize the charges would not only not stick, but of the embarrassment that would follow - THAT SHAMELESS CONDUCT REFLECTS ON YOUR ENTIRE AGENCY. And you want to assume that management has / will shed it's arrogance and shamelessness? It's gotten to the point where it's genetically encoded at HQ - they have no other plays in their playbook because the one they've used for years has worked so well, up till now.
The arrogance is so deeply engrained, the proof being the undeservedly poor treatment these agents have received while management gets a complete pass on serious violations (the most recent example being that pervert in New Orleans that rented hotel rooms on an ATF credit card to set up a glory hole. Even that perverse act and the embarrassment it should have brought ATF HQ did not give ATF pause to circle the wagons around him. Chainsaw, you're defending Medusa, the multi-headed snake when you defend management and ask the agents that are posting here to "trust" ATF HQ that this time mgmt has seen the light and somehow will develop some integrity. ATF HQ convinced me a long time ago they can't even spell the word, much less display it. But a question: how low or perverted a violation would a manager have to commit to be sanctioned by ATF HQ?
A $2 Tijanua hooker would have a better chance convincing me she didn't have any STDs then you will that ATF management has suddenly seen the light of their errors. But that's just me, an outsider.
I'm sure ATF HQ will put their computer forensics staff on overtime to identify me - and all the agents on this forum would no doubt eat my lunch if ATF HQ painted me as a target - so be it. I was in real estate for 21 years and an old broker warned me early, that all the little transgressions i might attempt to get away with, to be aware, the "pleasure" of those might be sweet, but they come in in small increments, but to keep in mind all those "pleasures" had an equal offsetting "pain" and the pain from those transgressions would come home all at one time. Personally, i hope those reptiles at HQ are named & shamed in pubic.
The "Shades of Many Doubts" story i posted at http://cleanupatf.or...onalism-in-atf/ . After committing unadulterated perjury to convict an innocent dealer, and caught at it, Gary Shaible not only was not reprimanded, he was made "Acting Chief" of NFA branch for 8-9 years, and only NOT made "CHIEF" because to do would have been an open admission that lying had become a professional responsibilty at ATF HQ.
Chainsaw, - try to sell eskimos ice - you'll have more success than trying to convince me that ATF HQ suddenly realizes the errors of their ways.
But that's just me, and again, the above is stated in all due respect.
#70
Posted 11 July 2011 - 10:19 PM
#71
Posted 11 July 2011 - 09:39 PM
I got totally fed up with "management craziness" the last couple of years, so I decided to put in for the AC. 20 plus years, but stuck here a dozen more to get to a real retirement, so what the heck. They canceled the AC testing, saying no funding??? I asked, what if a position comes open that I want, well apparently I have to have an AC score. OFW. I didn't want to be in management anyway, but darn I did like making HQ think I might be headed for them full steam ahead. LOL So, I thought of the Agents I've known who went into HQ with plans to change the system. OOPS, they had not realized the Institutional arrogance was so ingrained, so over-demanding, and that trying to change it at ATF means changing GSA, OPM, EEO, FLSA, DOJ, OIG, ... Trust me, I've spoken to good people who tried to move into management to make changes. They try so very hard, but more often than not, they are beat down by far more than just a few ignorant ATF managers. I had an SES tell me of the efforts to remove Vanessa McLemore and how humiliating that mess became as they realized it wasn't going to happen and that DOJ was condoning it. Yes, DOJ. Remember, she was to be indicted by the US Atty of the Northern Dist of Georgia, but that never happened. And part of the trade off to remove her from Atlanta was to allow Matt Horace his SES to go to NJ. Such a demoralizing, head shaking, laugh to keep from crying shame that mess turned out to be. That was DOJ, and NOBLE behind the scenes pulling the strings. Then again, this has been done for others in the past, repeatedly. Remember, I said I'd been here 20 plus years, so I've seen the slimmy stuff done by management to protect management, and only in recent years began to see the outside interferences that force many of the horrible management decisions. Luckily, there are some damn good men and women who have made it into management, so they give it balance. And not everyone I've seen listed on this site is totally horrible. Melson is an outsider without a clue, so he doesn't count. He has an attorney's spine. Most people will admit to having had good experiences with Hoover. Most have always known that Chaite puts Chaite first, always, but he hasn't crushed too many people on his climb. Then a few others listed on this site are just horrible people. They have no management abilities, zero leadership skills, no people skills, and really are dead weight for the agency. Wish they would let some of them jump ship to TSA, again. ATF is a small agency, but it is ruled by huge egos inside and outside, and giant agencies from all sides. Until ATF gets a true LEADER, one who puts the agency back on track, who tells OPM, GSA, DOJ, EEO, and others to get out of the way while repairs are made. Let the chips fall, let the disgruntled sue, but fix the messes and no more free passes. Fixing ATF will mean not backing down to all those OVERSIGHT Groups, and it will require ATF HQ to remove every ATF Atty within the agency. The ATF Attys are a large part of the problem, especially as they don't understand law enforcement, and they drink from the DOJ watercooler so they can't be trusted with ATF business. Then every SES who has been involved in any criminal act on the job that has been upheld by the PR board and Deciding Official, has to be removed-retire as no one will do anything to them. Next all GS 14s and above are also held to this standard. And lastly the indians. (no offense) This means agents and IOIs and staffers, and support personnel, and laboratory people and all the others. To clean a house, you start at the top, but it isn't over until the floors have been mopped.ATFSES I mean ATFSA
The only way to change ATF is to:
-Enter management and try to change policies and management decisions.
But the promotion process is so corrupted that competent honest hard working agents are shut out of the promotion process. It is a well-known fact that certain groups and individuals are given the answers and cheat sheets before attending the Assessment Center. Many very good agents have been given low scores at the assessment center because there come from the wrong background. Agents now know the AC is so corrupt they do not even bother putting in for it. ASAC assessment test scores were retroactively just lowered to get certain people into management according to good sources. The entire system is so corrupt it is not even funny anymore. What happened last Fall with ATF's secret hiring process? OPM policies require the general public be notified and ATF ignored this. Why did ATF lower the standards at the academy for recent secret hired classes? Will this improve ATF or give ATF an entire new set of future management rejects? Please respond ATFSA
-Speak out and offer suggestions and try and stop illegal, dangerous management actions. It think Vince, Jay, Dodson and others just did this. Look how management treated them. Vince is without a job. There are quite a few senior agents all over ATF now being terminated due to minor infractions. I mean really minor while management commits major violations, fraud and they are promoted. And how can you defend the promotion of glory hole?
Why did JT just reveal ATF law enforcement sensitive uc techniques and practices to the public? If I had any CI's I would deactivate them immediately because I would no longer feel I could guarantee their safety. How many good experienced agents have left ATF under JT?
Many very good experienced good agents all over the country are looking to leave ATF now and know one is stopping them. Typical SAC/ASAC answer when he/she hears that an ATF agent is leaving for another agency is "Good we don't want you" No wonder so many are leaving now.
How does one improve ATF? Please be specific and don't use the standard reply "By doing good cases" A typical ATF agent does the work of 6-8 FBI agents now with no support from management and gets no credit. Many agents, IOI's in ATF come from military and local law enforcement backgrounds and possess very strong moral characters and an ingrained sense of right and wrong. That is why they are so pissed off when they witness ATF mgt fraud, criminal behavior and bad management practices with zero consequences.
The policies and orders of some in upper ATF mgt has escalated and just resulted in the lost lives of brave fed LEO's just like in Waco.
Should ATF agents IOI's just be silent and allow more deaths?
chase
#72
Posted 11 July 2011 - 09:04 PM
Chainsaw, quitters never win, winners never quit OK, the folks who started this website, I know them professionally and personally. They are Type A, never give up, never quit, never back down, never surrender people. They would die for you, me, anyone to include a stranger if that is what it would take to save a life. Most likely, with their skills, insight, training, backgrounds, and quick thinking only the Bad Guys need worry about dying. SO your suggestion for them to Quit, that is ludicris. These guys are fighting to protect what they love and cherish, have put their lives into for many years. They did not choose the path of least resistance (management), they stayed on the streets. They learned, they made mistakes, they made great decisions, they worked hard, they made great cases, they put evil people out of the business of doing evil to others. Seems a bit melodramatic, but when an Armed Career Criminal gets caught buying a gun/drugs from an U/C ATF Agent, then spends the remaining good years of his life behind bars, many people are protected who will never know it. When homicides, bombings, arsons, gun smugglers, armed drug dealers, outlaw biker organizations, international terrorists funding sources (tobacco), and so many others are stopped because of the small handful of ATF special agents (about 1800 on the streets of the US and US Territories) it is something to be PROUD OF. So, if quitting is your suggestion, it tells us alot about you and I don't want you to have my back. If you work for ATF, you will move up in your chosen management career, because i can't imagine you are a street agent. If so, your time on the street will be short, I know because I've been on the street for a very long time. If you are worried that ATF is going to go away, quit worrying. ATF is here to stay. The NRA actually has our back, as well as Issa and Grassley. We will be fine, we've come through these issues repeatedly. Just cross your fingers we get a leader and not a manager.I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.
chase
#73 Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Posted 11 July 2011 - 12:10 PM
OK Epic - I'll apologize - I'm NOT happy about it, but here goes:I think all of you guys owe chainsaw a big apology. He is not happy anymore.
Dear Chainsaw, I am so very sorry that WE have ruined YOUR agency. Shame on anyone who stands up and says, "Hey buddies, I think these guns might be killing a few folks". Honestly, what were they thinking? And double shame on those who saw agents getting fired for telling the truth under oath, and then not only had the nerve to complain, but they went on to tell the truth THEMSELVES under oath! WTH? And then the little weenies gripe when they're fired!
And let's take a look at that whiney-ass Jay. It's NOT like his wife and kids didn't make it out of the burning house in time. And don't even get me started on Vince. The NERVE of someone wanting to make cases instead of being locked away in a closet. And I saw those windows! Back in the old days, when you got your ass thrown into the linen closet, there weren't any windows. You hardly had an airhole. And now Vince seems to be upset because the closet has been taken away. I THOUGHT he wanted OUT of there? Talk about unreasonable!
Again Chainsaw, I'm so very sorry.
And I would be remiss if I didn't touch on Brian Terry's Mama. I saw her sitting up there talking to Congress with tears in her eyes like SHE had something to whine about! I mean HELL, what does she want? I heard all the apologies she got. They said they were sorry. Oh wait a minute, the agents who told her they were sorry, were just more of the malcontents, not the actual officials responsible for F&F. OK, so scratch the ATF apologies, she still got to be on TV!
Had all this malcontents just SHUT-UP and been good boys and girls, ATF would have seen the error of their ways, and put Humpty back together again. We just didn't give them enough time. And I know that ATF would have gotten every one of those F&F guns back before too many more folks were killed. I mean, they were working on getting those guns back, right?
Again Chainsaw, I'm so sorry to be among this chorus of complainers and whiners. It's simply outrageous. You just can not please some people. I for one am glad that we have you, a voice of reason, in the midst of all these cry-babies.
#74
Posted 11 July 2011 - 11:10 AM
#75 Guest_Epic Failure_*
Posted 11 July 2011 - 10:56 AM
Maybe the Dodsons, Forcellis, Cefalus, Dobyns, Jacquez's, Andreas, Casas and the hundreds of anonymous ATF Agents posting here should have never said anything and been good little boys and girls like "chainsaw" wants. Then, none of this would be happening and ATF would be just fine.I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.
Maybe Dobyns shouldn't have whined about the attempt to murder his wife and kids. Maybe Cefalu shouldn't have whined about being fired. If Dodson hadn't whined about Brian Terry being murdered and had just been a happy ATF Agent, then "chainsaw" wouldn't be so upset.
I think Forcelli should have refused to answer the congressional subpoena, like his bosses. His time could have been better spent getting his resume up to date and finding another place to work.
You damned malconents!
I think all of you guys owe "chainsaw" a big appology. He is not happy anymore. Better yet, resign. Then everything will be fine in his perfect little ATF world.
Why didn't all of you guys just follow policy and discuss this with the Ombudsman??
#76
Posted 11 July 2011 - 10:33 AM
Are you aware that over 20 current and retired ATF Agents and Inspectors wrote and signed an open letter (along with extensive documentation) to Director Sullivan and Director Melson outlining criminal and integrity violations by the very people he was accepting counsel from? It went ignored and increased reprisals began against any of those who signed the letter.
Who in a perfect world would you approach that we haven't already? Melson, Dirty, Hoover, Dirty, Chait, Dirty, McMahon, Dirty, Loos, Bouman, Hurst, Ficaretta, Dirty, Internal Affairs? Dirty! Traver? He has been completely silent even though he is our nominee. Is it your informed and professional belief that you have some secret venue that even could clean up this mess without public and Congressional oversight, after the President of FLEOA and our ATF President were placated and then told to go pound sand?
Do you believe that anyone on this site or in the field would support your "anonymous" efforts no matter how well-intentioned? Is it your belief that Mr. Melson would lie to the American people on National CNN broadcasts and subsequently be seeking Whistle-blower protection for himself, and he could be approached?
And finally, check this out, Brother or Sister; This is how www.CleanUpATF.org has worked out for us so far. Loos? GONE. Domenech, Bouchard and Gordon? GONE. Multiple settlements for horrendous treatment of ATF employees? PAID. Numerous employees? REINSTATED. Congressional oversight? IN PROGRESS.
Should I continue or can we agree that www.CleanUpATF.org is a good thing and will go away when ATF is finally cleaned up?
Vincent A. Cefalu
Eleanor, is that you?
Seriously though, lets say that you can get ATF management to agree to stop taking off the head of every agent who dares to disagree with them, sit down with the agents, and start dealing with character and integrity. What agent is going to come out of the shadows and belly-up to that table? That's when they generally lose their heads; when they can be seen. And that would just be the first hurdle.
So here is where I think you are naive at best - you are asking agents to trust that although ATF has been outrageously treacherous for as long as anyone can remember, and tracherous with unbelievable consistency; that THIS is the time they are going to stand up and say, "ok we really, really mean it now. If you come out of the shadows, we will not take off your heads. Really".
One can not trust their career, pension, marriage, children's college, and sanity to these same people who are simply saying AGAIN, "really, trust us".
Specifically, how would you suggest getting that little problem out of the way?
#77
Posted 11 July 2011 - 10:32 AM
How can those that are sick of the corrupt double-standards of ATF improve anything by just leaving? It doesn't sound like you want the status quo to remain, but then in the next sentence, it sounds like you do.
If you or anyone you cared about had suffered the way the way many of us have you would be encouraging the exposure and accountability instead of asking everyone to stick their heads in the sand and pretend like it isn't happening. Our agency is in ruin but no person I have spoken to at ATF wants it to be vanquished. We just want ATF to get back to doing what we do without having to cheat and break the law and then cover it up and lie about it.
ATF is not in trouble because people have spoken out, but because people like you have been content to allow corruption to continue.
Please don't say that there is "another means to address the problems". Every conceivable method was attempted on multiple occasions and all we ever got was a blind eye and a deaf ear. Instead of telling us to run away, which solves nothing other than making things personally easier for you, tell us how to get some reform. We are all ears and will use any reasonable suggestion to try and get things fixed.
Chainsaw, please keep posting here. I do not agree with your "solution", but I am always willing to hear anyone out, regardless of whether I like what they.
For me personally, I challenge you to find a single public or private statement I have made that suggests "all of ATF is bad". Never have and never will. I have spilled blood for ATF and with many of the great agents and supervisors you brag on. Our leadership is the problem and the efforts of this site have only tried to expose that.
I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.
#78
Posted 11 July 2011 - 10:10 AM
Chainsaw, your points have logic, reason and common sense and that is why they make no sense in dealing with ATF. There is none of that in the management of ATF. You are not expected to understand. You are reprimanding agents who have spent 10, 20, 25 some 30 years in this agency. The posts of the "discontented" are harsh but what is your alternate suggestion? You need to understand the many of those you label as "pea brained rejects" and "discontented empoloyees" are the same people you praise a sentence or two later for hard work and long convictions.
You suggest to those that complaint to quit. Your final line, "Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted." That is nearly word for word what ATF Group Supervisor Jeff Voth wrote to his agents in Phoenix when they complained that the Fast and Furious gunwalking program was illegal and unethical. Interesting your choice of solution.
#79
Posted 11 July 2011 - 09:08 AM
ATF will remain as a bureau because the FBI(or any other federal agency)does not want you and the NRA does not want to get rid of you. You will get a new outside director that will announce ATF is going for quality cases and not quantity. That is management speak for no cases, no problems. There will be very tight guidelines on getting approval to do an original case and you will not be able to meet those guidelines. You will notice that ATF is not hiring any new agents. You will notice that more ATF agents are being put on other agencies task forces (to be helpers). You will notice that more agents in case producing positions are being assigned to non-case producing positions. State and local officers will still have coffee with you and laugh at your jokes but you will notice that they don't call you as much as they used to. You will hear through the grapevine that FBI agents have shown up at FFL locations and have told them to call the FBI when they suspect straw purchases.
#80 Guest_microscope_*
Posted 11 July 2011 - 08:42 AM
You suggest to those that complaint to quit. Your final line, "Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted." That is nearly word for word what ATF Group Supervisor Jeff Voth wrote to his agents in Phoenix when they complained that the Fast and Furious gunwalking program was illegal and unethical. Interesting your choice of solution.
I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.
#81
Posted 11 July 2011 - 03:38 AM
Till then, let's all keep working hard to put bad guys in jail, and maintain those great working relationships with the locals and prosecutors.
#82 Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:40 PM
Eleanor, is THAT you?I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.
And yes, I for one do indeed wish to see you people go by the wayside. I mean really, if all the ATF employees who aren't happy/proud/content with ATF left, that would only leave you people. How do you propose to run an agency with only a bunch of rabid chiefs left and no indians? And the general public really doesn't need to know anything other than whatever ATF is doing is resulting in innocent people losing their lives. Anything else at this point is irrelevant. I can promise you that Terry's mama thought her son was a top notch investigator too, at least before she had to bury him. And by the way, I'm willing to bet his mama is a bit "discontented" these days. I'm also willing to bet that she could care less what the difference is between a SES and a RAC.
Only someone from HQs would be arrogant enough to refer to agents who are appalled with ATF's actions and resulting deadly consequences as "discontented employees".
#83
Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:31 PM
#84
Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:29 PM
#85 Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Posted 10 July 2011 - 01:01 PM
I challenge you to name one agent who did as you recommend where management said, "oh my, we have made a mistake here and will correct it immediately. Thank you for bringing it to our attention". And hey, I'll set the bar really low here - I'll take a name going back as far as 20 years ago.
#86
Posted 10 July 2011 - 11:43 AM
Your ideas fundamentally look good in writing.
However, I can honestly say that I tried EVERY conventional method you talk about, and some you may have not known about. If you discover a serious problem (i.e., illegal acts or violations of law/regulation by GS-15s or above), and you have the evidence -- you will not be treated well.
For over ten years I tried the following avenues:
Talked with ASACs, SACs, DADLE, HQ Division Chiefs, ATF Ombudsmen, ATF Legal Counsels, Employee Assistance Program -- I got nowhere. In fact, I suffered continued and accelerated intimidation and retaliation from some of these individuals -- which I eventually settled (before trial).
Utilized the ATF EEO counselors at Division level, and HQ level to resolve intimidation and retaliation. They merely supplied my information to the offenders. When my complaints went formal and denied -- I appealed, and the EEOC ruled that I had suffered retaliation, intimidation and ordered ATF to go back and do a proper investigation as required by law. (ATF did not do as ordered and continued to increase retaliation)
Contacted ATF Internal Affairs -- twice. I was intimidated and suffered personal character assassination. Twice, I contacted the Office of Inspector General to report the incompetence and abuse practiced by ATF Internal Affairs investigators (intimidating employees to prevent exposing the malfeasance caused by GS-15 and executive staff). Eventually an official report was submitted to the Director of ATF to make corrections, which were ignored.
GAO conducted an extensive investigation of my repeated efforts to work within the established rules/regulations/avenues, concluding that ATF EEO, Internal Affairs and executive managers were working together to intimidate complainants/witnesses, and deny employees rights.
The issues that I brought to the attention of senior ATF managers were situations that threatened the safety of law enforcement officers, employees and the public. I wasn't just whining about minor issues. I could not sleep at night, knowing that some of these issues were not corrected or handled.
I ended up in federal court, MSPB and EEOC. After years of continued retaliation and intimidation -- and over $50,000 of unrecovered legal fees, I could no longer work for ATF. Even though I settled each case, I realized that I could not "fix"the problem by myself. ATF legal counsel knows this, and will wear you down with ridiculous delays and extended legal costs. Forget about Alternate Dispute Resolutions -- as ATF uses them as another form to intimidate and prolong your continuing legal costs.
atfsa, let me tell you for a fact: If you use the ATF system that is in place, you are working with a stacked deck. If you uncover or reveal a serious/illegal situation involving one of the ATF anointed ones, you better prepare yourself and your family to suffer terrible consequences. The more serious the ATF problem, and the better your evidence -- you will be assaulted with character assassinations, monetary losses, humiliation, and you will be isolated -- and this will go on for years, until you leave or they fire you. NOT fair to your family, but it happens.
#87 Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Posted 10 July 2011 - 07:25 AM
With the ultimate goal of saving ATF, I suggested banding together and attempting to improve ATF in-house in a more professional manner rather than continuously throwing the agency under the bus, releasing false allegations about an outstanding investigation, and making the entire agency appear to the world that we are incompetent overall. I even suggested using this forum to promote causes, promote ATF successes, exchange information, and encourage experienced agents to move into management and personally make a difference to improve this agency. I stand behind my post despite the negative and cynical replies. I want to see this agency improve, expand, and survive, but I truly get the feeling by the replies that some people in this great agency have just thrown in the towel. In reply to my post, I get called "ATFSES", "naive", "delusional", "lost and out of touch", etc. Are these replies truly the spirit of this website when an ATF street level peer suggests an alternative to improve this agency? Is that not our common goal? For those who have thrown in the towel, please ask yourselves what you did personally to try to improve this agency. Did you truly try anything other than listen to what others have done and then complain about it? I know that plenty of people have exposed themselves with ATF management and I admire their courage and attempts. However, I doubt that all potentially productive efforts have been exhausted. I will go a step further with my posting and volunteer to be the next street level agent to personally approach ATF management in an attempt to effectively and professionally give the street level employees a voice in an overall attempt to improve matters. For those who have replied that you are all ears and encourage such efforts, then I'll get us jumpstarted but I ask for your help. I do not have all of the answers myself, but I guarantee that if we get enough of us together to discuss options, discuss street level concerns, and iron this out, then we will come up with a feasible, productive alternative to throwing in the towel, publicly bashing this agency, and greatly risking the abolishment of ATF. It’s should be more about attempting to get solutions to a problem rather than making the problem worse. I already have some good ideas, and I want input from anyone else who would support this alternative effort (don't worry I won't ask those who have thrown in the towel and/or only wants to bash this effort and the agency). However, I am certainly not going to work through this process in a public forum for the world to see. So, anyone interested in supporting this alternative approach and anyone who wants input in exposing issues, addressing those issues, and suggesting solutions to those issues, then please send me a message or email, and feel free to remain anonymous. And, to the poster who suggested that I go fix ATF my way and those participating here will do it “our way” – good luck with that and let me know how it works out.
Eleanor, is that you?
Seriously though, lets say that you can get ATF management to agree to stop taking off the head of every agent who dares to disagree with them, sit down with the agents, and start dealing with character and integrity. What agent is going to come out of the shadows and belly-up to that table? That's when they generally lose their heads; when they can be seen. And that would just be the first hurdle.
So here is where I think you are naive at best - you are asking agents to trust that although ATF has been outrageously treacherous for as long as anyone can remember, and tracherous with unbelievable consistency; that THIS is the time they are going to stand up and say, "ok we really, really mean it now. If you come out of the shadows, we will not take off your heads. Really".
One can not trust their career, pension, marriage, children's college, and sanity to these same people who are simply saying AGAIN, "really, trust us".
Specifically, how would you suggest getting that little problem out of the way?
#88
Posted 10 July 2011 - 07:01 AM
#89
Posted 10 July 2011 - 01:13 AM
#90
Posted 09 July 2011 - 07:06 PM
#91 Guest_Epic Failure_*
Posted 09 July 2011 - 06:37 PM
#92
Posted 09 July 2011 - 05:16 PM
"We're all ears".
#93 Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Posted 09 July 2011 - 01:52 PM
How do you effectively deal with a management that not only shoots the messenger, they shoot the one who sent the messenger, and then they take out anyone who was ever seen talking to the messenger? The system that is in place is one that is understood by every agent in this agency - you NEVER question or disagree if you wish to keep your job. It's not like the agents can work with management on the QT to make things better. If that were possible, I don't think any of this latest mess would have ever occurred. I don't think Waco would have happened either if ATF had been an environment where agents felt free to say. "hey, I think this might be messed up, why don't we pull back and re-group".
But I'm with the other's, if you know a better way - I'd love to hear specifics.
#94
Posted 09 July 2011 - 12:26 PM
The only way to change ATF is to:
-Enter management and try to change policies and management decisions.
But the promotion process is so corrupted that competent honest hard working agents are shut out of the promotion process. It is a well-known fact that certain groups and individuals are given the answers and cheat sheets before attending the Assessment Center. Many very good agents have been given low scores at the assessment center because there come from the wrong background. Agents now know the AC is so corrupt they do not even bother putting in for it. ASAC assessment test scores were retroactively just lowered to get certain people into management according to good sources. The entire system is so corrupt it is not even funny anymore. What happened last Fall with ATF's secret hiring process? OPM policies require the general public be notified and ATF ignored this. Why did ATF lower the standards at the academy for recent secret hired classes? Will this improve ATF or give ATF an entire new set of future management rejects? Please respond ATFSA
-Speak out and offer suggestions and try and stop illegal, dangerous management actions. It think Vince, Jay, Dodson and others just did this. Look how management treated them. Vince is without a job. There are quite a few senior agents all over ATF now being terminated due to minor infractions. I mean really minor while management commits major violations, fraud and they are promoted. And how can you defend the promotion of glory hole?
Why did JT just reveal ATF law enforcement sensitive uc techniques and practices to the public? If I had any CI's I would deactivate them immediately because I would no longer feel I could guarantee their safety. How many good experienced agents have left ATF under JT?
Many very good experienced good agents all over the country are looking to leave ATF now and know one is stopping them. Typical SAC/ASAC answer when he/she hears that an ATF agent is leaving for another agency is "Good we don't want you" No wonder so many are leaving now.
How does one improve ATF? Please be specific and don't use the standard reply "By doing good cases" A typical ATF agent does the work of 6-8 FBI agents now with no support from management and gets no credit. Many agents, IOI's in ATF come from military and local law enforcement backgrounds and possess very strong moral characters and an ingrained sense of right and wrong. That is why they are so pissed off when they witness ATF mgt fraud, criminal behavior and bad management practices with zero consequences.
The policies and orders of some in upper ATF mgt has escalated and just resulted in the lost lives of brave fed LEO's just like in Waco.
Should ATF agents IOI's just be silent and allow more deaths?
#95
Posted 09 July 2011 - 11:29 AM
I recently published a post entitled, “Operation Castaway”, which provides the truth of that Tampa Division investigation and prosecution in hopes of preventing the new falsehoods from snowballing out of control. I understand the “credible” source who leaked the false information to an anti-ATF rumor-mill blog, as well as most people on this site, hope to make positive changes for ATF, which is a noble cause that I embrace, but I am extremely concerned with some of the methods utilized and some of the blog sites that they align themselves with in attempting to accomplish this task. Please do some research on the individuals and organizations that we think are doing us a favor by allowing our voices to be heard, and if your goals truly are to improve the condition and management of this agency, then perhaps better forums should be explored. I believe this public ATF "improvement" experiment has snowballed out of control into widespread agency trash-talk, rumor spreading, bashing, and backstabbing, and a lot of employees are jumping on the bandwagon. Again, I support your cause, but I truly believe that airing out agency dirty laundry, throwing the agency under the bus, and publishing false, detrimental information about agency investigations / operations for the world to see will end up having potentially devastating, unexpected results... and it must stop. We all know (so I hope) that ATF is the greatest agency in the world with the best criminal investigators on Earth, and this agency should grow, strive, expand, and improve into the future (even recently fired Vince Cefalu wrote the same thing this week). However, the more we bash ourselves to the world the more incompetent we appear overall, and I would confidently believe that Congress would likely decide to abolish us rather than trying to replace all of the mid to upper management personnel, which seems to be the intended message of this website. I even read a few posts recently that some agents are on USAjobs looking for new jobs. Seriously guys? That's not the solution either... It's time to band together in a better manner than to continue to utilize the potentially disastrous techniques currently being employed by some, and this website can continue to serve its original purpose to promote causes, exchange information, and encourage experienced agents to move into management and personally make a difference to improve this agency, rather than continuously complain and publish untruths in hopes that someone else will make a difference for us. Let's be the professionals we truly are, and proceed a bit more professional towards our goals.
#96
Posted 09 July 2011 - 10:59 AM
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