Going to the media.....

Fog has a great point. This site could become something that could be great for the agency.

This site was founded, funded and operated by a handful of individuals and has already served its purpose beyond our wildest expectations. It was never intended to "become something great for the agency". For one thing, simply breaking the "Fast & Furious" scandal and facilitating the media and congressional scrutiny it has received exceeded most of our (the founders') expectations. The recent adverse actions involving top Bureau leadership are icing on the cake, and they are almost certainly just the tip o' the iceberg. You personally may never know what role this website played in the big picture, but I do, and it is not insignificant by any rational measure.

The reality is most ATF agents don't come here. They look at this site as something for a bunch of malcontents and conspiracy nuts.

Really? How would you know? Have you taken a poll? If so, let's see it. Or, do you somehow monitor the Internet usage of all ATF agents? It fascinates me how pompous know-it-alls can claim to speak for an entire group as you have (while simultaneously criticizing others for making unfounded statements). And besides, you're here (or at least, were). Does that make you a "malcontent" or "conspiracy nut"?

By sticking to fact and calling out the crap, we could move towards something so much more. Seriously, asking people to be careful of making unfounded accusations is not that much to ask for. This website says it is for "Restoring integrity and accountability to the Bureau." Well, why can't the website hold it's self to the same standard. Stick with facts. Be careful of what you say. If we get a crazy conspiracy nut on the site, call him out and tell him - no! No more bull. Again, let's hold ourselves to the same standard we hope to become the standard for all of ATF, including upper management. Wow! I am curious how you argue with that.

I do not intend to argue with most of that, as I happen to agree with much of it. But in any site such as this, there will be those who go off the reservation. The problem is that I do not have the time to keep close tabs on everything that is said and must rely on others to inform me when things get out of hand. That said, you are not the anointed arbiter of what constitutes "unfounded accusations". And finally, calling another user an "idiot" and publicly calling into question his or her personal integrity is not the same as merely, "asking people to be careful of making unfounded accusations".

I wonder did you sanction the guy that said ATF agents shot children in the back?

No, I did not, but only because I was heretofore unaware of such a post. And if and when I confirm it, that poster will join you in the "banned" section of our database. However, even if that were not the case, whether someone gets banned is at my exclusive discretion. In my assessment, an overarching problem with today's American society is a feckless and shallow sense of entitlement and egalitarian "fairness", even when there is absolutely no foundational basis for such an expectation. The registration rules clearly state that the Webmaster and Moderators have complete and unfettered authority to act or not as they see fit. If you find this "unfair" or otherwise objectionable, call the ACLU or better yet, start your own website.

I understand. I kind of thought that it might come to this although I have obeyed carefully every forum rule stated.

That is a bald-faced lie. Calling another user an "idiot" (which you did at least once) is a categorical violation of the Forum rules. If I cared enough to do so, I would cite the sections violated, but...I don't and shan't.

I gather I won't be long for this site then. Its true. You have all the power here. Use it to silence and retaliate against those that challenge you.

You gathered correctly. However, although there has been plenty of disagreement in this site and with me, I have banned (including you) a grand total of just 4 out of the well over 1,000 total users in the 3 years that this site has been existence, and one of those was for repeatedly posting off-topic 2nd Amendment stuff after being politely asked not to. That is a whopping aggregate ban rate of 0.004%, and less than one user per year, hardly rampant "censorship" or "retaliation"). No, I just don't like arrogant pricks who act is if they have some "right" to say whatever they want on someone else's website.The fact is that I rarely get involved in here, but when and if I do is at my complete and utter discretion (ownership being 9/10 of the law and all).

Fog has a great point. This site could become something that could be great for the agency. The reality is most ATF agents don't come here. They look at this site as something for a bunch of malcontents and conspiracy nuts. By sticking to fact and calling out the crap, we could move towards something so much more. Seriously, asking people to be careful of making unfounded accusations is not that much to ask for. This website says it is for "Restoring integrity and accountability to the Bureau." Well, why can't the website hold it's self to the same standard. Stick with facts. Be careful of what you say. If we get a crazy conspiracy nut on the site, call him out and tell him - no! No more bull. Again, let's hold ourselves to the same standard we hope to become the standard for all of ATF, including upper management. Wow! I am curious how you argue with that.

Fog13, I have no idea who you are and frankly don't care. But as all-powerful Master of this "extremely low-traffic, rarely visited" website (that ass-umptive statement alone indicts both your credibility and motives), I've had just about enough of your pompous, sanctimonious pronouncements. Tone down the provocation or I will ban your arrogant ass before breakfast.

Fog13, I have no idea who you are and frankly don't care. But as all-powerful Master of this "extremely low-traffic, rarely visited" website (that ass-umptive statement alone indicts both your credibility and motives), I've had just about enough of your pompous, sanctimonious pronouncements. Tone down the provocation or I will ban your arrogant ass before breakfast.

Your claim of insider knowledge of continued mistreatment of ATF employees should compel you, then, great crusader of justice, to go now to the media. Go now to congress. Who better than you to stand and fight for these employees who have been wronged. They, in most cases, have jobs they go to. You, on the other hand, do not. You could be the great spokesperson for the movement. Why continue to waste your time here, on this extremely low-traffic, rarely visited web site? Be the face of the disenfranchised.

Wait. Did your "settlement" bar you from such activity? Did you make a deal with the "devil" to keep your salary? I certainly hope that's not the case. And if not, then I challenge you to stand up for what is right. Go public now with all the detailed information you have of all the injustice being heaped upon so many.

Go to the media, Sandy. You don't need any encouragement. Vincent has some good contacts in the media. I'm certain he can get you some air time to talk about things you know nothing about. Can't wait to see you're shiny little face on CNN, sugar...

Had to edit this after learning that you left ATF 15 years ago. I'm afraid most news organizations will find your story quite... uninteresting. Gosh, if only you would have been so set on getting the truth about ATF out into the public eye back then when you were a part of the agency.

FOG trying to keep you factual is becoming a full time job. I have no reason to go to the media b/c this isn't about me. I no longer have a personal axe to grind with ATF. When I did, I did indeed go to the media, my Congressmen, to court, and to anyone else who would listen. I am one of the few who were "fortunate" enough to get public, judicial, and financial vindication in the end. I'm here for all those who have not. And while you do not appreciate my support of these employees, as long as they do, I'll be here.

This is a direct quote from former agent Michelle Roberts to Mike Wallace on "60 Minutes" over 18 years ago:

Going public is our very last hope. We've done everything but go to the White House and stand on our heads for attention. Until somebody looks at this, nothing is ever going to get better and it could even get worse". The "it" she refers to is the pattern of corruption and retaliation that has always been the hallmark of ATF HQ, I.A., and the COO.

Let's see, it's been almost 20 years now and not only has "it gotten worse", it is now worse than any of us could have ever imagined.

My personal motivation for going on this same show was for an agent by the name of David Watson who was 4 years from retirement when he took the stand in my case to tell the truth, which God bless him, he did. ATF, knowing that he knew the truth and would likely testify to it, proposed to fire him with the usual trumped-up nonsense. This proposal was hanging over his head at the time he took the stand. The choice David had to make was very clear, become part of ATF's conspiracy to cover up an illegal activity and perjure himself, or take the stand and tell the truth against ATF. Once he told the truth, he was not off the witness stand good before they did indeed fire him. I imagine he would have had quite the promotion had he just fallen in line.

For those of you who think one should just let the attorneys slug it out in court on behalf of the whistle blowers and not go public, the attorneys were the very reason David lost his case, as many times they are. They screwed up his case and left him flat broke. He lost his job, his retirement, and his reputation as an agent, and there will never be any sort of vindication for him.

After all these years, I still grieve for what ATF did to this very fine man and for all the others they have attempted to destroy throughout the years.

I am still waiting for just one example of someone who went directly to the media before exhausting all other possibilities. Anyone? And please, feel free to go back as far as you need to for an example.

I don't mind telling you it breaks my heart that the very first feeling you had was embarrassment.

Today, I happen to be in an ICE Office. When it came out that I was a retired ATF Agent I was asked about what was going on with ATF, because a few of them knew Terry? For a moment I was a little embarrassed but I told them I was sorry for their loss, but reminded them that it was OUR loss, that it was Managers at ATF that caused this situation. I then told them I know Vince and Jay and if either one of them told me the sun was coming up in the west tomorrow morning, if I were standing on the beach at 6:00 am, I'd be wearing sun glasses looking west. I told them that no street level agent in ATF believes the congressional testimony of the SES cadre and that hopefully a Special Prosecutor will soon be appointed. Concerning Newell's Letter to the committee I had a one word description....HORSESHIT! The active duty agents really do need to consider a class action suit against this agency.

Today, I happen to be in an ICE Office. When it came out that I was a retired ATF Agent I was asked about what was going on with ATF, because a few of them knew Terry? For a moment I was a little embarrassed but I told them I was sorry for their loss, but reminded them that it was OUR loss, that it was Managers at ATF that caused this situation. I then told them I know Vince and Jay and if either one of them told me the sun was coming up in the west tomorrow morning, if I were standing on the beach at 6:00 am, I'd be wearing sun glasses looking west. I told them that no street level agent in ATF believes the congressional testimony of the SES cadre and that hopefully a Special Prosecutor will soon be appointed. Concerning Newell's Letter to the committee I had a one word description....HORSESHIT! The active duty agents really do need to consider a class action suit against this agency.

I do not disagree for what its worth. HOWEVER, something like that is going to be sooooo divisive that it may be the final straw. Theres yet another new Acting Director, lets see what he does.

Sandy, good post! When ATF comes after you, you have no protection nor do you have much of a recourse. If they say you're wrong, YOU'RE WRONG! Period! One thing you will never hear in ATF is, "we were wrong. We shouldn't have put you through these disciplinary proceedings". That's never going to happen! The only solution I see is a class action law suit. It's been done before, and they won! I don't think it's hard to beat ATF. We just need to do it as a group. The African American agents did it, and they prevailed. At the time, I was resentful that they did it. But not now. I totally understand why they did it. They pulled together, and got the job done! Whether you agree with the class action or not, the fact is, they did not back down and they did it as a group. Why agents are not pursuing a class action suit, is something I will never understand. The money really doesn't matter. The goal would be "don't treat agents unfairly". Depending on congress to do this for us is not acceptable in my opinion.

Rest assured, and this is a FACT. All of the Agents who have gone to the media did so after using EVERY conceivable Bureau provided mechanism to INFORMALLY resolve their grievance before resorting to airing our dirty laundry. With VERY FEW exceptions, those who have spoken publicly, did so as a last resort. They are good and in some cases great Agents and Inspectors who were deemed malcontents because they chose to not lay down and accept unethical and sometimes illegal management practices and abuses retroactively by ATF Chief Counsels Office.
The grievance system is broken beyond repair. You may grieve ONE level up from the person/boss you have issue with. If you grieve an ASAC you have to convince the SAC to be impartial against a guy HE or SHE selected in the first place. Aint happenin, has never happened. Guaranteed reprisals. Ill be glad to provide, although its already been posted, my personal grievance where I was threatened if I filed another one. IN WRITING. I myself suffered 5 transfers, 3 reprimands, two suspensions, a psyche eval recommendation and an illegal attempt to terminate me while on JOB RELATED medical leave and yet another attempt to terminate me now. Did I mention, the bosses were bragging publicly and attempting to chill others who may complain in the SFFD. Was it ever released that in the 20 years prior to these actions, that I received EFS or outstanding evaluations? That 15 days before I filed formally, after being threatened by my RAC, that I would wake up to find myself transferred to North Dakota if I filed, that I received a mid year stating "YOU ARE EXCEEDING THE SACS EXPECTATIONS IN EVERY CATEGORY? Yes 15 days before I either lost my mind after 20 years or simply called them out. Even then I tried to find a voice of reason for 4 years, yes 4 years until they idled me in a room. THEN and only THEN did I go public.

Ombudsman? Was good when they reported to Director only. Now they do not maintain confidentiality, pass on your complaint to Chief counsel and the reprisals begin. If you write internally and informally advising the Executive staff, you are slammed for a chain of command violation.I personally exhausted EVERY mechanism, WITH DOCUMENTATION, and my information was ignored. CNN saw clear merit and abuses or they wouldn't have put it on Anderson Cooper. The agencies response, deny deny deny, even when faced with the egregious comments and attitudes made by then Assoc. Chief counsel Ethics Division, Elenor Loos, placed in writing by an honorable Supervisor and supported by DOZENS, (their words not mine) of interviews across the country. Hell, when the number two guy in the Bureau (Edgar Domenech) has to file for protection and states ON THE RECORD, he knew he was committing career suicide, that seems fairly credible and compelling.
It has been said of me, that I am out to destroy this Bureau. First, to those of you who say that crap at the water cooler or whisper it to gain the good graces of those who have absolutely DESTROYED my Bureau, I dare you to say it to my face. I have NEVER said no, turned down an assignment, was the first one to go home or denied a request for assistance to ANY agent or field division. I have spent more nights than most(not all) agents in a sleeping bag on my office floor doin the job. I have been privileged to work with the most dynamic Special Agents in the world and I love this Agency and the Agents, Inspectors and the clerical people as if they were my family. So if you think you get to use the easy out that I am disgruntled and out to do this Bureau harm, you are wrong and we can figure this out OLD school if you like. I didn't corrupt our very clear cut mission to impress our new fathers at DOJ and run willy nilly crazy grandstanding T-III cases with all kinds of international intrigue but NO crime guns in our vault. I didn't tank our explosives jurisdiction, I didn't fail our ESF 13 commitments, I didn't smoke and mirror border gun runner surges and walk guns. I didn't promote leaders who failed NIBIN, arson and explosive even higher up. They did. I have never lied under oath or to congress. Ive never invoked Attorney client privilege or redacted documents. Ive never relied upon obscure legal wrangling to cover my tracks.
So if any of you want to point the finger of blame, turn it toward those in charge.

Sandy, good post! When ATF comes after you, you have no protection nor do you have much of a recourse. If they say you're wrong, YOU'RE WRONG! Period! One thing you will never hear in ATF is, "we were wrong. We shouldn't have put you through these disciplinary proceedings". That's never going to happen! The only solution I see is a class action law suit. It's been done before, and they won! I don't think it's hard to beat ATF. We just need to do it as a group. The African American agents did it, and they prevailed. At the time, I was resentful that they did it. But not now. I totally understand why they did it. They pulled together, and got the job done! Whether you agree with the class action or not, the fact is, they did not back down and they did it as a group. Why agents are not pursuing a class action suit, is something I will never understand. The money really doesn't matter. The goal would be "don't treat agents unfairly". Depending on congress to do this for us is not acceptable in my opinion.

The media is often the only way to get any movement. The "hurting the agency" theme is always from someone who has nothing on the line. It is from some person who would rather leave the dirty laundy to rot in their own house instead of exposing it and airing it out. It usually the person who is content to observe the corruption and as long as it doesn't touch them personally because they don't want anyone ruining their game which in most cases is a $100,000 a year job with low expectation of performance. I do not know of one single instance where any agent ever first move was to the media. When an agent has an issue and brings it forward, regardless of the credibility or evidence it is immediatley attacked and denied by the ATF attorneys. Does anyone have one single example of a case where a complaint was filed and the attorneys examined it and concluded that ATF was wrong and remedy was in order? Just one example will shut me up. Every time a complaint is filed it is defended by ATF's attorneys. In ATF's attorneys minds a manager has never one time ever done anything wrong or made a mistake and that is beyond ridiculous. The media shines the light on the cockroaches. I say more power to the person who is willing to risk all to expose the corruption in the media when ATF refuses to even try to address it internally.

I hear criticisms about ATF whistleblowers going to the media. The argument is always that this harms the agency, and it is always stated like there is an option. I’d like to know just what this option would be.

No one loves this agency any more than I do. I practically cut my teeth on the guns of some of ATF’s very first and very finest agents. But going to the media is almost always the only protection and help available to anyone who is slugging it out with the thugs in D.C.

Every time someone is forced to use the ‘media card’, the very first thing the 5th floor does is start putting out the word that the whistleblower is harming the bureau, and that the agency and it’s mission will suffer. And every time they do, there is always a significant percentage of ATF employees/agents who buy into this. I ask you, who is actually causing the harm? The ATF employee who is fighting for their paychecks, pensions, health care, children's futures, etc., or, is it the agency that has always been so vicious in it’s retaliation and that is now leaving quite a trail of dead bodies in it’s wake? I also wonder if more agents had stepped out years ago to expose the corruption of ATF’s leaders, would there be so many dead right now?

I think when McMahon testified to congress recently that he hoped ATF “would close ranks”, that this statement is very telling. It’s obvious to me, that what he was actually saying was he wanted the agents to close ranks around him and his, even though he and his buddies have been actively and viciously going after these very agents for years now. McMahon’s statement is also consistent with the efforts by ATF leadership to encourage agents to pull together against anyone who may think about talking to the media.

By all means close ranks, just make sure you aren’t closing ranks around the very bastards who are trying to take you out.

I do not know this for a fact, but I would bet the farm that the agents slugging it out with ATF right now are open to all suggestions in how one goes about fighting this monster without the help of the media. However, if you have criticisms but no alternatives, I challenge you to start posting under your real name. Let’s see how fast you climb into bed with the media when it’s your pension and your family’s welfare in the balance.

I can not help but feel like if this agency does not survive, that it will not only be the fault of ATF’s historically corrupt leaders, but also all those who have sat back through the years and pretended not to see damn thing.

I think once you have your time in they can fire you, but you still get your full pension, if not you lose it, but others would know better. Lol, my tenure in the agency was a relatively short one.

I hear criticisms about ATF whistleblowers going to the media. The argument is always that this harms the agency, and it is always stated like there is an option. I’d like to know just what this option would be.

No one loves this agency any more than I do. I practically cut my teeth on the guns of some of ATF’s very first and very finest agents. But going to the media is almost always the only protection and help available to anyone who is slugging it out with the thugs in D.C.

Every time someone is forced to use the ‘media card’, the very first thing the 5th floor does is start putting out the word that the whistleblower is harming the bureau, and that the agency and it’s mission will suffer. And every time they do, there is always a significant percentage of ATF employees/agents who buy into this. I ask you, who is actually causing the harm? The ATF employee who is fighting for their paychecks, pensions, health care, children's futures, etc., or, is it the agency that has always been so vicious in it’s retaliation and that is now leaving quite a trail of dead bodies in it’s wake? I also wonder if more agents had stepped out years ago to expose the corruption of ATF’s leaders, would there be so many dead right now?

I think when McMahon testified to congress recently that he hoped ATF “would close ranks”, that this statement is very telling. It’s obvious to me, that what he was actually saying was he wanted the agents to close ranks around him and his, even though he and his buddies have been actively and viciously going after these very agents for years now. McMahon’s statement is also consistent with the efforts by ATF leadership to encourage agents to pull together against anyone who may think about talking to the media.

By all means close ranks, just make sure you aren’t closing ranks around the very bastards who are trying to take you out.

I do not know this for a fact, but I would bet the farm that the agents slugging it out with ATF right now are open to all suggestions in how one goes about fighting this monster without the help of the media. However, if you have criticisms but no alternatives, I challenge you to start posting under your real name. Let’s see how fast you climb into bed with the media when it’s your pension and your family’s welfare in the balance.

I can not help but feel like if this agency does not survive, that it will not only be the fault of ATF’s historically corrupt leaders, but also all those who have sat back through the years and pretended not to see damn thing.