290 replies to this topic

[Historic Arms LLC]

To "GoodWorker":

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

To "Citizen":

Be careful when using a broad brush. Yes, there are instances (you gave one example) when a small group of people within ATF did "manufacture a criminal". They are not all like that and that you were able to post what you did proves that.

To "Avatar":

"In a real-world sense, ATF mismanagement that affects the firearms industry (manufacturers, importers, gunsmiths) through the unannounced reinterpretation of long-standing rules is a legitimate issue." Absolutely correct.

You are also correct about the attorneys who concoct this stuff rarely if ever have to clean up the mess.

As you stated it is NOT mismanagement by Special Agents. That being said there were only a couple of unfortunate times when I have had the displeasure of interacting with Special Agents who enjoyed enforcing the ATF attorney's agenda a little to much. They were few to be sure, out many many interactions with Special Agents; Just as some wack job doesn't represent the whole firearms industry, neither do they represent all of ATF.

As to MAC style "upper" you speak of...yes, all true. The really sad tale there is ATF then Associate Chief Counsel (now Deputy assistant Director) in early 2006 wrote a memo concerning ATF new interpretation on MAC "uppers" for FTB. Myself and my company and products were mentioned throughout...ATF never shared the information or the document with my company.

I never would have designed or built the "arrested" MAC "upper" if my company had been aware of the memo (which was released in a FOIA to another party recently). I certainly would not have agreed with it's conclusion, but I would not have wasted the enormous time, money, and resources. ENFORCEMENT BY AMBUSH.

The growing frustration of "How can I be compliant with something held secret and only revealed when I'm in Federal Court?"

I'm a reasonable person, certainly not violent in any manner. I prefer to work methodically within the system. Beware however, not all are like me and this dangerous game of destroying lives, marriages, businesses, savings, etc. is eventually as any statistician can tell you come up "all lemons" as some point.

Since we apparently all concur on the source of this foolishness, we have a responsibility to correct it. Look through darned near any thread on this forum and the common denominator is CCO or Chief Counsels Office.

How do we fix it?

[GoodWorker]

SY,

To clarify some things, the person in charge of the operation was a first line supervisor (a RAC - resident agent in charge) just as this guy Voth was a RAC at the heart of the Gunwalker fiasco in Tucson. A bad supervisor can do a lot of damage. The vast majority of ATF agents are hard working, honest and cherish the 2nd amendment. Many ATF agents served or still serve in the military, and most own their own firearms outside of what we carry. Because of this, it hurts ATF agents when stupid initiaitives (like what happened in Richmond and Tucson) damage our credibility and paint us as "gungrabbers" or ignorant about the impact of ill conceived "initiaitives". For the majority of the 5100 ATF employees, nothing is further from the truth. Look at the FBI, DEA, ICE or any large law enforcement agency - they all have a few bad apples and we are no different.

As to the "whims of some agent who happens to be reviewing the books," that would typically be our inspectors (now known as investigators or IOIs). These IOIs are the person that FFLs usually encounter. They are NOT law enforcement, carry no powers of arrest, search or seizure. When agents come knocking on a dealer's door, it is typically for another reason, like getting 4473s for criminal cases, conducting interviews (FFLs are our key partner in stopping straw purchases and firearms trafficking), etc.

To help out the majority in ATF, write to or call your Congressman or U.S. Senator and demand accountability for those at all levels of ATF who violate ATF and DOJ ethical rules, aided in the trafficking of guns to Mexico ("Gunwalker"), lied to or misrepresented facts to Congress, etc. Only when the likes of Melson, Hoover, Chait, McMahon, Newell, Needles, Gillett, Voth are gone from positions of authority can ATF begin to heal. Believe me when I say we want nothing more than to serve the public as the honored law enforcement officers, IOIs and support that 99% of us are.

Well put Valkyrie

[Valkyrie]

This is the type of stuff that scares me. I am not any type of LEO... I am just your average shooting enthusiast and the son of a 25 year plus FFL. The capriciousness of some members of the ATF doesn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies (and they are the ones in charge, no less...). It would seem that my father and I stand to lose quite a bit based solely on the whims of the agent who happens to be reviewing the books that day.

I have spent fifteen years of my life serving in the military for THIS?!?

Kudos to those agents trying to turn things around. You have the support of us folks on the "other side of the line." I know you are risking much and appreciate your integrity.

Wish I could do more to help...

SY

SY,

To clarify some things, the person in charge of the operation was a first line supervisor (a RAC - resident agent in charge) just as this guy Voth was a RAC at the heart of the Gunwalker fiasco in Tucson. A bad supervisor can do a lot of damage. The vast majority of ATF agents are hard working, honest and cherish the 2nd amendment. Many ATF agents served or still serve in the military, and most own their own firearms outside of what we carry. Because of this, it hurts ATF agents when stupid initiaitives (like what happened in Richmond and Tucson) damage our credibility and paint us as "gungrabbers" or ignorant about the impact of ill conceived "initiaitives". For the majority of the 5100 ATF employees, nothing is further from the truth. Look at the FBI, DEA, ICE or any large law enforcement agency - they all have a few bad apples and we are no different.

As to the "whims of some agent who happens to be reviewing the books," that would typically be our inspectors (now known as investigators or IOIs). These IOIs are the person that FFLs usually encounter. They are NOT law enforcement, carry no powers of arrest, search or seizure. When agents come knocking on a dealer's door, it is typically for another reason, like getting 4473s for criminal cases, conducting interviews (FFLs are our key partner in stopping straw purchases and firearms trafficking), etc.

To help out the majority in ATF, write to or call your Congressman or U.S. Senator and demand accountability for those at all levels of ATF who violate ATF and DOJ ethical rules, aided in the trafficking of guns to Mexico ("Gunwalker"), lied to or misrepresented facts to Congress, etc. Only when the likes of Melson, Hoover, Chait, McMahon, Newell, Needles, Gillett, Voth are gone from positions of authority can ATF begin to heal. Believe me when I say we want nothing more than to serve the public as the honored law enforcement officers, IOIs and support that 99% of us are.

[GoodWorker]

OK, as Webmaster, I'll weigh in on this...

We would never intentionally engage in activity, commercial or otherwise, that makes light of F & F, Gunrunner, etc., for obvious reasons. That said, this entire endeavor has expended an extraordinary amount of uncompensated time and money. Merely responding to daily member and visitor inquiries, login problems, media requests, monitoring rules compliance, etc., etc., has become a full time job as we approach 700 registered users and an average of 3,000 to 4,000 visits a day. I happen to have a full-time job already, and the manner in which this site exploded over the last 2 years is frankly more than I ever bargained for. I'm not complaining; just sayin'.

Accordingly, we are considering the pursuit of some suitable advertisers to generate operating revenue for the site. Our initial thoughts are that we would limit available advertising exclusively to companies/products/services that would be of direct or indirect interest to federal law enforcement personnel and/or their families. Obviously, we would need to determine what such items should/would be.

Although this is a privately-owned website and not a democracy per se (meaning that we can do pretty much whatever we feel like), we would be interested to hear the membership's opinion, particularly as to what types of advertisers you would view as appropriate.

CUATF.org Webmaster

CUATF staff,
Thank you for doing all that you do and I am sure this is very time consuming. If you sell advertising space, I would prohibit any company that is regulated by ATF to avoid any nonsense later on in a court or administrative hearing. Keep doing what you are doing and Happy 4th of July everyone.

[Citizen]

"Manufacturing criminals" from normally law-abiding citizens has been a long-standing technique of ATF. History is full of examples. David Olofson is a prime example. There are many, many others. Sometimes ATF wins, and sometimes the citizen wins - but ATF always ensures that the citizen will have to spend a small fortune on lawyer fees.

[avatar]

In the very early days, CleanUpATF professed to be open to all, but it seemed like there was an unwritten rule that it was essentially for ATF personnel only, but that perception has waned considerably. Still, there IS, I think, tension between the mission of CleanUpATF as a site for ATF employees versus a "platform" for firearms industry complaints, and this might be a useful time to clarify this.

In a real-world sense, ATF mismanagement that affects the firearms industry (manufacturers, importers, gunsmiths) through the unannounced reinterpretation of long-standing rules is a legitimate issue. The reason is that since ATF has declined to, for example, make public its various Letter Rulings, and manufacturers, importers and gunsmiths find out about the "new" rules only after the fact in proceedings that are rightly termed "enforcement by ambush," because the enforcement falls to ATF Special Agents, Industry Operations Investigators (who have no enforcement powers, per se, but whose reports can be and are used to support enforcement activities) and others, the perception of not getting a fair shake falls on THEIR backs, not on the backs of ATF attorneys who concoct the rules.

In an environment, then, in criminal cases where Discovery motions cause ATF to fork over ONLY those Letter Rulings and other documents that justify and support the ATF position, while declining to provide exculpatory or potentially exculpatory Letter Rulings and other documents, the enforcement process gets subverted.

To be clear, this is not "mismanagement" by ATF Special Agents and others who are tasked with doing enforcement; rather, it is a case where ATF mismanagement victimizes ATF Special Agents and others by putting them in crummy positions of having to unfairly enforce the law, typically against SELECTED manufacturers, importers and gunsmiths. Not across the board.

Let me close with an example. There was a recent case involving an "upper" manufactured by Historic Arms, LLC, that was ruled to be a machine gun as the result, in part, of ATF putting chains, zip ties and other devices on the "upper" to convert it into a machine gun. As such, those items were conversion devices. What was troubling about that case, is that Historic Arms, LLC, selected 5 or so other "uppers" that ATF didn't even classify as firearms; used the same chains, zip ties and other devices to convert these uppers into machine guns; and doing that had no bearing on the legal outcome of the case involving the Historic Arms, LLC "upper."

Now, I personally have no interest in "uppers" or the issues involving them, which apparently revolve around changing calibers in a machine gun to make it more versatile. The problem that I have with the ruling in that case is WHAT on Earth would or could prevent ATF from arbitrarily selecting, from the MILLIONS of "uppers" that ATF has not even ruled to be firearms, some poor guy who has one installed on his lawfully registered and possessed machine gun; coverting that upper into a machine gun; and then charging the guy with Possession of Unregistered Firearm, to wit, a machine gun?

This "retroactive noncompliance" to which you refer seems to fall squarely into the situation that I have just described, but carries it to even more treacherous ends. It boils down to ATF arbitrarily dishing out felony violations of the NFA against people whom ATF did not in the past regard as criminals. I suppose manufacturing criminals is one way to improve ATF's performance statistics--but is this a proper way to do it? And is this a proper/ethical use of ATF Special Agents and others at ATF?

[The Original Ralph]

don't know that the industry would be too inclined to advertising on CUATF. but not because they don't or wouldn't want to support CUATF but suspect there'd be concern regarding retailiation from ATF. There'd be some like Len Savage at Historic Arms LLC that would, and myself that feels ATF already treats me bad enough it's hard to imagine it getting much worse. But overall i doubt you'd see many advertisers in spite of the fact this website is a strong draw to the gun owning public. (i could be wrong, have been before).

I'm not sure you'd want advertisers from the industry, though, for a lot of obvious reasons - a) to avoidd the appearance of any "quid pro quo" relationship with the advertisers, and then the embarrassment of an advertiser turning out to being someone like Cavalary Arms or Ben Paz (former owner of that glock parts site). (google him - caught selling glocks from a suitcase in a hotel room to a non-resident alien, and found to have 140+ glock frames in his shop without their serial number plates, and he got 7 years of home confinement for a sentence.

I think you're chances of drawing industry advertisers would grow a little if you had an industry side of this forum - ie where industry members could detail their experiences with ATF, Washington DC in the way of incompetence, arrogance and corruption. personally i'm at the point of writing a letter to technology branch that may well prove to be my suicide note but i'm ready to retire anyway. They've re-interpreted so many regs, so many times, and done mental gymnastics in their "re-interpretations" that a reasonably intelligent individual would need more than one roll of duct tape to keep his head from exploding.

Then layer on top of that, on one of those mis-interpretations i had then Chief Counsel's Office Theresa Ficaretta, in a mocking tone of voice agree with me that the newest "re-interpretation" was ridiculous & she asked me to commit it to writing and send in the letter direct to her. Two weeks later i rcvd a response that, and I kid not, basically said "we can do this because we never said we wouldn't". Then to make the letter worse, (tech branch and her were reversing long standing policy that Title I regs didn't apply to NFA items, ie in the way of "non-sporting" weapons regs), in my letter i had indicated that the 450 -500 customers that had bought the shoulder stock (for a pistol) in good faith based on the previous FTB's chief, Ed Owen ruling(who was no slouch in the way of knowledgeability of the regs) - Those owners had presumably registered their pistols as SBRs - at least they were due a variance or exemption otherwise by this new interpretation, ATF was putting them into felony violation retroactively. And ATF was complicit in their "felony violation" as ATF had accepted their SBR registrations. That request was also denied by Mrs Ficaretta.

I realize this site was started by ATF agents for ATF agents, but i think if you had another side or page on this forum for industry members, it would expand support for your cause and expose the corruption & incompetence ATF demonstrates on a daily basis to the industry.

But back to point - another suggestion for revenue for the board to help cover costs. Have you considered offering "premium" memberships. it wouldn't entail anything or everything you would decide it to include. On another gun forum HK Pro, members can view & post without paying any fees, but if a member chooses to cough up the "Premium" fee, the title "Premium" member under their identity in postings. They've added some other benefits to being a Premium member overtime, the fee is basically a chance for members/users to support the forum financially.

I and i'm sure a lot of others, recognize that this forum takes quite a bit of effort & time by the webmaster, and with the membership fees some of the "ditch digging" work could be farmed to an IT guy to handle, and let the webmaster devote his time to managing the site. I don't think most folks would have a problem with paying a $15-20 annual fee for membership.

Between membership fees, and some revenue from a "CleanUPATF.Org" T-shirt, it should lighten the cost of maintaining this forum. Servers cost money and need upgrading, bandwith costs, etc - I remember when the owner of HKPRO.com told me, in the early years what the monthly costs were, it surprised me. In fact, if the webmaster wanted to contact him, he's a captain on a Missouri PD, i'm sure he would share his experiences and how he handled them when he was in the same situation this forum is, with viewership climbing the way it is. If so, throw me an email thru my profile, and i'll send you his contact info.

again, just some suggestions

[Steve Y]

This is the type of stuff that scares me. I am not any type of LEO... I am just your average shooting enthusiast and the son of a 25 year plus FFL. The capriciousness of some members of the ATF doesn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies (and they are the ones in charge, no less...). It would seem that my father and I stand to lose quite a bit based solely on the whims of the agent who happens to be reviewing the books that day.

I have spent fifteen years of my life serving in the military for THIS?!?

Kudos to those agents trying to turn things around. You have the support of us folks on the "other side of the line." I know you are risking much and appreciate your integrity.

Wish I could do more to help...

SY

[avatar]

Getting advertisers is logical for a lot of reasons, but I think the politics of doing that will cut both ways in that the advertiser will be seen as identifying with CleanUpATF, and vice versa. It is not different from any other commercial publication (newspaper, magazine, etc.) in that regard. CleanUpATF is also, in my experience, unique because it is a reform-minded site that has deeply involved ATF employees, and arguably represents an aspect of federal law enforcement that takes what have traditionally been internal, hidden matters and gone public with them.

I am not a federal law enforcement officer (or any type of law enforcement officer) and am not familiar with federal law enforcement publications, but would respectfully suggest that to the extent such exist on some commercial basis, take a look at them and see who advertises, and what they advertise. I suggest this because federal law enforcment is a specific target "audience" and there is probably some common experience there. By that, I mean one thing I know about ANY law enforcement is a concern about showing any sort of favoritism or political tendencies. Of course, politics and favoritism exists everywhere, but I don't think concern about image is anything to be sneezed at. I realize that saying "study these issues" isn't a quick answer, but I think in this case it is important to think all of the objectives through. If, for example, it is a matter of needing to raise some money to get technical assistance with the CleanUpATF site, and manage it, consider an appeal to members and others to make anonymous donations and see what gives or not.

[The Original Ralph]

Lest we forget:

May 2004 - August 2005. Richmond, VA and Pittsburgh, PA. ATF Agents, in conjunction with Virgina State and local police, conducted an operation at some eight gun shows in Virginia. With special attention to female purchasers, hundreds of gun show attendees were stopped by Virginia State Police (VSP) as they returned home, were detained and interrogated by ATF Agents, and many had their purchases confiscated by these ATF agents who failed to cite any legal authorization for confiscation. The purchasers were compelled by an ATF letter (under threat of arrest) to appear later at ATF offices to explain and justify their purchases. ATF provided purchaser names and addresses to the local police who then conducted "residence checks". ATF task force personnel involved in the operation were Ed Melton, Andrew Stanley, and Ricky Williams. The Resident Agent in Charge, Scott L. Sammis signed the confiscation letter. "One ATF Agent had a t-shirt on which read, "If you can read this, the bitch fell off". Gun show participants objected. (From an official Virginia State Police Report, dated 22 August 2005)

In addition, in Pittsburgh, Pa., ATF agents showed up at gun show customers’ homes a week after a show, demanding to see the buyers’ guns or sale paperwork and arresting those who couldn’t — or wouldn’t — comply.

Great PR, Guys..... "How to win friends and influence people". Wouldn't Dale Carnegie be proud?

Actually there's more detail to that report - first, apparently the agent wearing that T-shirt, was attempting UC dress as a biker, as he had motorcycle gang type attire (chain going from his belt to his wallet, etc). An employee of a local gun shop (that shop has never exhibited at gun shows and will not exhibit / sell at shows), was at the richmond show, trying to sell a personally owned Remington 870 & a S&W M60 (boxed) walking around with them with index cards on both indicating "for sale". The ATF agent that seemed to be in charge of the operation pulled him cause he had seen him at another show selling guns and wanted to know if he was selling without a license. The kid tried to explain that while he had been at another show BUT WITH THE SAME TWO GUNS for sale. The agent in charge interviewed him or held him in a henrico PD cruiser for 45 minutes as a check of his driver's license came back "showing it had been suspended" - after 45 minutes or so, he released the kid saying it must have been a computer glitch, driver's license was good.

Now comes the great PR work part. The kid had enough sense, when released from the henrico cruiser to ask the ATF agent for identification, as he wanted to know who had interviewed him. With a henrico cop standing right there, the agent stated "do you want to be in more trouble than you're already in?" in a loud beligerent voice.

The kid insisted there was no honest reason to not identify himself and he wanted to know who had interviewed him. The agent stepped forward and got in the kid's face, and in an even louder voice bellowed "I'm Agent McClosky, got that?" (that id is from my memory from listening to the kid being interviewed on the Gordon Liddy talk show, and McClosky was in the richmond office)and turned to walk away. As the agent turned to walk away, the kid saw that T-shirt with the "b---h fell off" inscription and asked him "Agent McClosky, is it customary for representatives of my gov't to wear clothing with profanity detailed on it, in an environment where there are children and family members?". the agent turned & walked back over and in the kid's face bellowed "I'm a federal f--king agent and i'll do what the f--k i please!" That's the part that really made that operation the winner in the "excellence in public relations" competition.

If that guy wasn't the richmond SAC, then he at least was in the management training program.

The seizure of the purchased firearms, this was the first i heard of that, but what i do know was happening was that background checks being performed at the show (state of VA Police maintain a booth for bc checks), were being delayed by Va State police due to "computer problems" and dealers told to come back in an hour or so. while they waited, that info was given to either a City of Richmond officer or a Henrico officer, depending on where the purchaser resided, for the officer supposedly to confirm the purchaser resided where the purchaser had indicated. And that's when they would interview the occupants of the purchaser's address. WTF??

There were 54 marked PD cruisers (city of richmond & Henrico PD, as reported on the radio in richmond), and 70+ officers and with no arrests for mis-represented addresses on their 4473s. A lot of money spent on an imagined problem. I have no doubt some mis-represent info on their 4473, but to treat innocent buyers the way those were, ON THE ASSUMPTION, that there was a violation there somewhere - kind of turns my opinion on what law enforcement is supposed to be about, upside down.

the second part of that op that was disturbing, that the info on the 4473s that was released to city of richmond & henrico county pd was privacy protected material. The State Police of Va forms (counterpart to the 4473 ) do not detail addresses, only name and SS#, so it had to have been ATF releasing that info.

The real purpose of that operation, i suspect, was to kill gun show attendance, that day and in the future. What the papers didn't report at the time, the entrance to the state fairgrounds, where the show was being held, was framed by six cop cars, with lights flashing, 3 on either side of the entrance road. And if you did decide to drive thru the entrance to the parking lot, seeing 54 "black & white" cruisers parked in the lot would definitely cause most folks to head somewhere else. Most folks, if they pull into a 7-11 to get their morning java, see one or 2 cop cars nosed up to the store's entrance with lights on, tend to think, maybe i'll get my coffee at the next 7-11. Same here - and sure enough, that weekend's attendance was down over 60%.

the part that made it curious, if the operation was to catch straw purchasers with a strong UC presence (ATF had a number of UC working the show, that would follow female attendees around hoping to hear them tell a dealer she was "looking for a gun for her boyfriend" or blacks looking to buy for their "homies in the hood"), then why announce a Law enforcement presence with that many marked police cruisers, out front and in the parking lot? If i recall the congressional hearing correctly, no one was charged with any violations at that show.

the genius at HQ that thunk this operation up sure left a lot of his IQ turned off that day.

[avatar]

There was a Congressional hearing on that, actually; see http://www.nfaoa.org...ments/26053.pdf

Oversight hearing on Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE): Gun Show Enforcement (Part I and II)

On February 15 and February 28, 2006, the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, held a hearing on ATF enforcement activities at gun shows; and, specifically, its activities at a Richmond, Virginia, gun show. The latter included "uniformed law enforcement [visiting] the address of every purchaser form Richmond or Henrico County attempting to purchase a gun and ask for a full description of the individual attempting to purchase the firearm, where he or she worked, how many firearms the potential purchaser owned, and in some instances, if there were any concerns about the person in question purchasing the firearm. If no one was at the listed address, a neighbor was interviewed."

For ATF and other folks who may be interested, there is a Web Site called National Firearms Act Owners Association (NFAOA) that has an a large number of hard-to-find documents posted as PDFs (so one can see the copy of the document itself, rather than electronic text), which delve mainly into experiences of citizens, gun collectors, and FFLs with ATF mismanagement in a number of areas. The above PDF is taken from that site. It is an interesting site, in part, because it seems to complement the CleanUpATF site in the sense that the NFAOA site was created because many citizens, gun collectors, and FFLs were disgruntled by how ATF was treating them and wanted to band together and memorialize common experiences as well as put into public view the many public documents that ATF created to deal with them.

By the way, the NFAOA "Resources" page did not spring fully formed out of the head of Zeus during the past few weeks. It has been around since 2003, and its managers have slowly but methodically added documents as time allows. Nobody is paid anything for this work, and much like CleanUpATF, it has been perpetuated by a core group that believes ATF and the Government can give its citizens, gun collectors, and FFLs a fairer shake in a significant number of instances. The principle behind the NFAOA "Resources" page is to (1) make hard-to-find documents that are in the the public domain more widely available, for free, (2) briefly or not so briefly discuss aspects of the documents such that cold readers will have some notion about what the issues are, and (3) act as clearinghouse for such documents.

The contents of the NFAOA "Resource" page is too extensive to summarize, but below is a listing of what amounts to its Table of Contents. You can get there by going to http://www.nfaoa.org/resources.html

• New: Amnesty Documents and ATF activities relevant to §207( b ) and §207( d ) of the Gun Control Act of 1968
• 5th Amendment rights: An attorney explains why not to talk to the police, which includes ATF
• Federal District Court cases with a significant focus on the NFRTR, 2007 to present
• CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight reports on the Olofson case and ATF abuses
• Citizen's Guide to using FOIA and Privacy Act to obtain Government Documents, and Example Letter
• ATF Special Agents prepare for million dollar lawsuits nationwide, consider class actions
• District of Columbia v. Heller -- Parker v. District of Columbia case on 2nd Amendment
• Resources for the NFA Owners Association - General Items
• James Bardwell: NFA and other gun law and related info and cases
• Legal discussions of NFA issues by James H. Jeffries III, Esq.
• ATF or Department of Justice responses to letters from Members of Congress
• Len Savage Court Testimonies, Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) Classification Letters and Related Issues
• National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers FOIA BATFE Manuals
• Letters by Members of Congress regarding ATF mismanagement
• War Trophy firearms, DEWATs, and related issues
• Legal issues regarding the accuracy and completeness of the NFRTR
• ATF and Treasury Department Inspector General investigations and audits of the NFRTR, and related documents
• Department of Justice Inspector General Reports on BATF, and related documents, 2005 to present
• National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934, as amended
• Gun Control Act of 1968: Hearings, Legislative History and related documents
• Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986: Hearings, Legislative History, and related documents
• Congressional reports on ATF, and related documents
• Proposed NFA and other firearms legislation in the 110th Congress (2007-2008), and related documents
• Proposed NFA and other firearms legislation in the 109th Congress (2005-2006), and related documents
• 2006 ATF Oversight Hearings before the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security
• Congressional testimonies and statements of Eric M. Larson, 1996 to 2001, and related documents
• Congressional Research Service (CRS) reports on the National Firearms Act and related issues

[Ike]

Lest we forget:

May 2004 - August 2005. Richmond, VA and Pittsburgh, PA. ATF Agents, in conjunction with Virgina State and local police, conducted an operation at some eight gun shows in Virginia. With special attention to female purchasers, hundreds of gun show attendees were stopped by Virginia State Police (VSP) as they returned home, were detained and interrogated by ATF Agents, and many had their purchases confiscated by these ATF agents who failed to cite any legal authorization for confiscation. The purchasers were compelled by an ATF letter (under threat of arrest) to appear later at ATF offices to explain and justify their purchases. ATF provided purchaser names and addresses to the local police who then conducted "residence checks". The VSP acknowledged at least twenty-one individuals were deterred from making purchases due to questioning from Task Force members (Gee, I wonder why?) ATF task force personnel involved in the operation were Ed Melton, Andrew Stanley, and Ricky Williams. In addition, the Congressional Hearing listed Acting Resident Agent in Charge, Brian Swann and Agent McComas. The Resident Agent in Charge, Scott L. Sammis signed the confiscation letter. "One ATF Agent (Agent McComas) had a t-shirt on which read, "If you can read this, the bitch fell off". Gun show participants objected. (From an official Virginia State Police Report, dated 22 August 2005) ATF stated at the Richmond gun show, that this was a "Pilot Program" that ATF was planning to apply throughout the country. Witnesses at the Congressional Hearing testified that ATF Agents were verbally abusive......

In addition, in Pittsburgh, Pa., ATF agents showed up at gun show customers’ homes a week after a show, demanding to see the buyers’ guns or sale paperwork and arresting those who couldn’t — or wouldn’t — comply.

Great PR, Guys..... "How to win friends and influence people". Wouldn't Dale Carnegie be proud?

[The Original Ralph]

Absolutely not. There are definite problems and issues with our agency but this forum or its name does not need to be hijacked by enemies of ATF (not you Original ralph). This is not "abolish ATF" as many in the industry and public would like to see, its "cleanup ATF". In my opinion, purpose and messages on this site need to be used to inform those who are unaware of the issues and corruption AND to let the public know that these terrible decisions and policies that have occurred do NOT represent most of the agents and employees of ATF who work each day to try and make a difference for the safety of the country. I wish we did not need it, but this site is a good mechanism of checks and balances of the commoners of ATF against the corrupt elite of ATF - and I don't think all of our top mgt is corrupt.

Merchandise? I would not support any t shirt or merchandise that made light of the F&F issues. I think that would be in poor taste and insulting to the Terry family and others.

There are some things associated with this site I do not agree with, for example Vince recording himself in the office and airing it on TV. Many agents I know wished he would not have done that. However, I have not walked in his shoes and I understand he must have felt that was a good decision for him. I knew Vince back in the day and would still go through a door with him anytime (even if I think he is a little extreme) but that is his way.

on the point of the "F&F" t-shirt possibly offending the Terry family, sorry, that possibility hadn't occurred to me - sometimes i'm tunnel visioned

but a simple "CLEANUPATF.ORG" t-shirt - not sure how that's hijacking the website or it's focus. I'm suggesting this website do the shirt and use the proceeds to support this board and to gain more notoriety ie attention of the public, which would directly serve this forum's purpose as you stated

sorry for the mis-step on the t-shirt making light of "F&F"

[The Original Ralph]

don't know if you guys have thought about but the possiblity of some CUATF related merchandise to help cover the board's costs

obviously, a couple of just plain "CleanUPATF.ORG" T-shirts, maybe in some different colors, reasonably priced would sell, but they'd have an additional benefit. Once some folks wear them into a gun shop, it will draw some folks into visiting this site, and the more aware the public is, especially the firearms owning public, the more support you'll get. And a lot of the folks drawn to this website, i'd be willing to bet would buy one of the T-shirts. You may think you know how much animosity there is in the firearms industry toward ATF management, but it's deeper than i suspect you realize.

2nd idea for a T-shirt - this one will at least give someone a chuckle, and maybe an idea for other T-shirts, but one that pokes fun at ATF management with a pix of the Taco Bell chihuahau (or one close) with the caption - "My owner went to the US, and only came back with an AK-47" or a "fast & furious AK-47), then again, with the CUATF.org somewhere across it

if you guys need or want an assist with organizing the T-shirt production, it's easier than you think and i wouldn't mind giving someone contacts (printer, t-shirt supplier etc).


I assume the idea of marketing something is probably totally foriegn to most in law enforcement, and the possibility of it may even be an anethema to some, but especially the first t-shirt would sell well, and the more folks are wearing it, that's free advertising

another idea, might be to seek assist from some industry organizations (and i'm not saying the NRA, but i would talk to them as well) to see what kind of finanncial support, and other kinds of support they could offer - whether in direction, legal, etc. I'd also consider contacting the major firearms manufacturers, for the same support, financial and basic directional support.

I've been in the industry since 1982, and as Len Savage at historic Arms LLC can tell you, the industry's opinion of ATF management would make a sailor blush. The regs get re-interpreted so often, and usually in a 180 degree fashion from the last interpretation, that you have to be a mental gymnast of Olympic caliber to keep up.

the more organized this effort gets, the more management is going to be worrying.

02 from an old fart

[Zorro]

How about no more of this?

http://www.atf.gov/p...observance.html

Taxpayer funded celebrations of sex habits has NO place in government. Sex acts have caused this agency enough grief already. If someone is gay, straight, multiple discipline or whatever and needs a self esteem boost.... annual leave and personal finances can fill the void.

The best part is, the HQ crew really believed they were going to get blessings from the taxpayers by advertising this on the web. THE COUNTRY IS BROKE - NO MORE SEX CELEBRATIONS!

[Casual Observer]

John Boy, As a citizen, I got to tell you, you sound as nutty as a squirrels breakfast. This site isn't dangerous to the field agents, it's just the right thing the ATF needs to get the ATF right. Sure, there's some exposure here but I think the dialouge does more good then harm. You know what is really damaging to the field agent? Concocting an operation where the ATF sends guns in to the hands of drug cartels in another country with the expectation that in doing so a case can be made against the cartel kingpins. And, when say the first, oh. 200 guns are lost in transfer, ATF management says, step on the gas. Send a couple of thousand more! Yea, that's resulted in to U.S. citizen's and U.S. Agent's being killed along with hundreds of Mexican nationals. And, the guns are still out there and unaccounted for. What's your name Holder?? Tell me something. Back in the day when George Hunter White was making cases against Mexican & Chinesee drug cartels the old fashioned way, it was the Bureau of Narcotic's (now DEA) job to do that. Why's the ATF management doing it??

[reddog]

Broken ATF SA, Very insightful comments on the state of affairs we find ourselves as employees of ATF. And Avatar, very good suggestions. I am going to follow your suggestion and write to Mr. Issa, Mr. Grassley, and my State representatives, on both sides of the political spectrum. Maybe if enough of us yell from the mountain tops, somebody will hear us. Reddog out!

[avatar]

The answer is in a way easier than you think, but it requires what might seem like grunt work from a lot of people. The simple answer is to send that letter to both of your Senators and your Representative, at United States Senate, Washington, D.C. 20510, and House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. 20515. Yes, call them by all means; they have folks who answer telephones who record what constituents call about. There is also some formula that Congressional offices use to "score" or weight the calls and letters they receive. I don't know what it is, but I can assure you it is multiples; for example, an office might consider every telephone call on an issue to represent the opinion of 10 constituents; one letter on an issue may count for representing the opinion of 25 constituents, because letters take more effort. I don't know if those are the ratios; I do know that there is some multiple effect. The harder answer is to get other people to do the same. The eyes of top officials at the Department of Justice, ATF and the Department of State (at the least) are reading every word on CleanUpATF right now, because the stakes are so high. Members of Congress do listen to their constituents---massive expressions of outrage about an issue can and do produce results. Maybe not quickly, maybe not all the results that need to happen, but NOT expressing your concerns dooms your concerns not to be heard. You don't need to be a professional lobbyist or attorney or represent anybody except yourself, and I suggest you just be yourself and speak for yourself. Assistant Attorney General Roland Weich was particularly truculent and disrespectful during the June 15, 2011, hearing called by Chairman Issa, Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, House of Representatives. At that hearing, Assistant Attorney General Weich testified that the Department of Justice would not retaliate against whistleblowers. His demeanor is, rightly, taken to represent the attitude of Attorney General Holder and the Department of Justice. The fact that ATF has initiated termination proceedings against Special Agent Vincent Cefalu, who is an ATF whistleblower, is evidence of the contempt in which Attorney General Holder holds all ATF whistleblowers. Whether the whistleblowing is about Project Gunrunner/Fast and Furious, about ATF's failure to provide protection to an ATF Special Agent whose home was burned down by members of the Hell's Angels, about ATF's failure to discipline managers (including one who was arrested in New Orleans for building a "glory hole" in his motel room), about ATF's inappropriate reliance on attorneys who disregard the letter and spirit of the law in so-called "disciplinary" proceedings whose standards are not uniformly applied to ATF Special Agents and ATF managers, whistleblowing is whistleblowing, and there are laws against retaliating against whistleblowers. There are also laws against retaliating against federal employees who discuss their concerns with Members of Congress. Reprisals for doing so are flat out illegal. As we have seen, that has not kept ATF from doing reprisals and retaliations. Please send your letter; please make the corresponding telephone calls. Please urge others to do the same, in their own words, and in their own way. If enough of you do that, it will create awareness of the problems and engage the public. Some years back, there were studies of when and how then-President Nixon lost the support of the public over Watergate. Turns out it was the late-night talk show hosts and comedians---once they started joking about Watergate, public support was lost. Note the sarcastic "report" that John Stewart did recently; it was an absolute hoot! Some people get their news from him, and his "report" was expertly done, spot on, and made the folks who concocted Fast and Furious look like dangerous idiots who are out of touch with reality. It won't be that far a skip and a jump to more mainstream venues. If you sent your letters and make your calls, you can help make that happen. So can others.

[Broken ATF SA]

All, After laying awake, so angry I couldn't sleep, I composed this letter. I just don't know how to get it out to the intended audiences. So, if you care to, please help. I wrote it for all of us... Who am I to do so? Just a working agent who is among the long and distinguished list of agents who've been convicted for charges completely and utterly made up by management because I speak the truth. I am proud to be a part of this group even as it saddens me to know what is happening to us all. Thank you for reading this. "Dear Sir: On behalf of all Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Special Agents, please allow me to voice what we are all thinking and feeling at this point. I should like to address two specific audiences with this letter; the American People and the more than 50 Senior Executive Service (SES) employees who compose ATF's "senior management." First, to the American People, we would like you to know how saddened and disgusted we are with Operation Fast and Furious and the resultant death and destruction. As ATF special agents, we take great pride in our mission and believe in the oath we swore when we earned our badges. We try to earn them again every single day. While our agency is not widely known, outside of certain scandalous moments, we enjoy being the quiet professionals whose mission is among the easiest in federal law enforcement to explain: we are sworn to combat violent criminals who use firearms, arson and/or explosives as their tools to terrorize our citizens. Many of us willingly face danger, injury, and death as we strive to make our communities safer by putting together rock-solid criminal investigations of the most violent among us. We are far from perfect and make mistakes. We also know we enforce what can be controversial laws because they are tied directly into the debate over our rights as citizens in the Second Amendment to the Constitution. We are also members of the same communities we serve and know as well as any the effects of violence upon our friends and neighbors. We ask for your support and understanding that the failure being exposed to the light of day at this moment was not our doing. In fact, special agents showed great moral courage in coming forward to reveal the details of an operation that can only be called a disaster. Those agents now face retribution which is common within ATF for anyone who dares speak out. To our senior management, we say this: it is time for you to go. We don't care how you leave or where you go as long as you just go away quickly. You represent to us a group that has failed us and the American People repeatedly and we hold you in contempt. There is one enduring legacy of Waco, where your actions enabled the murder of four of our brothers; horrendous ATF management. Now, once again, your actions and reprehensible treatment of us has brought our proud agency to the brink of extinction, which is a travesty. The American People need us to go after those who terrorize our communities. There is no one better suited to do this than us. Yet, you, our "visionaries," can see only how to feather your own nests as you lie, cheat and steal your way to the top. We realize some of you are exceptions to this and we apologize for casting such a wide net, though we have yet to hear your voices. The reality is, then, you can ALL just go away thus allowing us to get back to our important work unencumbered by you and the anchors you've placed around our necks. Let us save our agency and try to design a system where good work is rewarded not punished and where we have a voice, something you've stripped from us. Please, just leave now. Sincerely, An ATF Special Agent Anytown USA"

[SA FOG]

Does anyone know if this has been pushed out to the field yet? I haven't seen it yet.

[avatar]

NOTE: This posting, which discloses a new June 13, 2011, Memorandum by Attorney General Eric Holder on reducing gun violence, is copied from Sipsey Street Irregulars, at http://sipseystreeti...s.blogspot.com/ Sipsey Street Exclusive: Straight from Eric Holder's desk. New "Law Enforcement Strategies for Reducing Gun Violence." "Okay, guys, you remember what I said about straw purchasers? Well, forget it. It just didn't work out, in case you hadn't noticed." Over the electronic transom I received this document issued Monday by Eric Holder regarding "Law Enforcement Strategies for Reducing Gun Violence." Although I received it pdf form, I transcribed it to shield the source of this document from easy trace. This memo announces a crack-down on straw purchasers, something that the October 2009 DOJ policy meeting declared was no longer of particular concern. You will note that this memo is dated the same day as the first Gunwalker hearing, and reverts to the old policy of catching straw buyers and rolling them, something the agents at Wednesday's hearing bitterly complained that they were not allowed to do under Gunwalker. Irony compounded. Office of the Attorney General Washington, D.C. 20530 June 13, 2011 MEMORANDUM TO ALL UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS CC: DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, CRIMINAL DIVISION ADMINISTRATOR, DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE ACTING DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS & EXPLOSIVES FROM: The Attorney General (MBV: Initialed in blue ink, "E H") SUBJECT: Law Enforcement Strategies for Reducing Gun Violence The events in Tuscon in January and the continued upsurge in shootings of law enforcement officers serve as painful reminders that too many innocent citizens die senselessly each year at the hands of dangerous and violent individuals armed with a gun. Over the past five years, 67 percent of homicides in the United States have been committed with firearms. And too often, these gun crimes occur at the hands of persons who are prohibited from possessing firearms. Over the last several months, the Department has conducted numerous firearm policy meetings with outside stakeholders, including law enforcement officials, representatives from state and local governments, and firearms retailers, to discuss common sense approaches that will help keep guns out of the hands of criminals and others for whom possession of a firearm is against the law. Last July at the Project Safe Neighborhoods (PSN) Conference in New Orleans, I outlined the Department's committment to modernizing our violent crime strategy and emphasized that enforcement, prevention, and re-entry must be the cornerstones of that strategy. The AGAC outlined this strategy in a November 2010 memo to all U.S. Attorneys. The U.S. Attorney community has always been at the forefront of the Department's anti-violence strategies, working with state, local and tribal officials to devise community-based anti-violence solutions. Our Federal investigative are integral to these efforts. As your AUSAs work to implement the anti-violence strategy outlined last year, you should endeavor to heighten awareness of gun-related crime and the unique factors that cause it in your respective districts, and continue to work with state, tribal and local counterparts to identify the communities in which gun violence persists. Each District-specific anti-violence strategy should implement, in those communities, the enforcement, prevention and re-entry programs that will be most effective at reducing gun violence. As we approach the end of the school year and the warm summer months, our enforcement and prevention efforts will become even more important. (1) As we work to refine our strategies in this way, certain features of the most successful programs -- such as stepped-up enforcement against the most violent offenders, targeted enforcement in "hot spot" areas, and creative prevention and re-entry initiatives -- can and should be exported and adapted as best practices throughout the nation. I have begun mobilizing all available resources and expertise within the Department to support the adoption of those best practices. Of course, we must focus not only on investigating and prosecuting violent crimes committed with guns, but also on stopping violent criminals from getting guns in the first place. Our violent crime strategies must therefore address both the criminals from getting guns in the first place. Our violent crime strategies must therefore address both the criminals who unlawfully possess and use firearms and the "straw purchasers" and other firearms traffickers who supply those criminals with guns. In this regard, we encourage each district to carefully review recent enhancements to the Sentencing Guidelines that are aimed at "straw purchasers." The Sentencing Commission has amended the primary firearms guidline, S2K2.1, to increase penalties for straw purchasers whose offense of conviction is making false statements but who engage in the offense with knowledge, intent or reason to believe that the offense would result in the transfer of a firearm to a prohibited person. Under the newly-approved amendment, the base offense level will increase from 12 to 14 so that straw purchasers have the same base offense level as a straw purchaser convicted for knowingly distributing a firearm or ammunition to a prohibited person. The amendments to the guidlines also include higher penalties for straw purchasers who are involved with certain especially dangerous firearms and for those gun offenders involved in moving guns across the border. In the absence of Congressional actions, these enhancements recommended by the Sentencing Commission will go into effect in November, but in appropriate cases they can and should be brought to the court's attention now, as potentially relevant to a particular sentence. In addition, the Department is undertaking an effort to coordinate multi-district gun-trafficking investigations in both source and market districts. These districts will be identified using ATF trace data. The aim is to dismantle firearms trafficking organizations and shut down the pipeline of illegal guns by improving our ability to share evidence and leads between law enforcement at both ends of the supply chain. As a part of that effort, the Criminal Division's Organized crime and Gang Section will be working with the United States Attorney's Offices and ATF in market districts and corresponding source districts to pursue coordinated investigations that utilize the resources, intelligence, and evidence found in both the source and market areas. Finally, to enhance our ability to detect, investigate, and prosecute violent criminals and the traffickers who supply them with guns, I am further instructing each of you to implement a policy in your District to ensure that defendants who proffer in cases involving guns, drugs, gangs, or acts of violence are thoroughly debriefed about gun crime and gun trafficking, including the sources of illegal guns, and to ensure that relevant information obtained from these debriefings is shared with ATF for further investigation as appropriate. Whether the information obtained during such debriefings constitutes substantial assistance is of course a determination to be made by prosecutors in accordance with District and Department policies. Many of you (2) already encourage your AUSAs to debrief such individuals about gun crime; these debriefings should now be mandatory, and the information developed should be shared with your ATF field offices. Such debriefings will help ensure that we are maximizing our efforts to develop and utilize intelligence and evidence about gun crime in each district. I appreciate your cooperation and your help with this important endeavor, one that can help communities and save lives. I also will appreciate knowing about your District's experiences with the initiatives outlined in this memorandum so that the Department may learn from your work in this area and your successes. (3)

[Zorro]

All excellent points. When hands-on is essential and it is practical, ship instructor(s) to the students vs. shipping students to the instructors. With reduced funding, we may have to do something many LE agencies have utilized for years - local trainers for recurring subjects.

[CaptainWho]

Training - instead of shipping all students, instructors, and training staff to different locations, do teleconferences. It makes no sense to send 30-40 people to stay for two weeks out of town when you can traing 200-300 people via teleconference. I understand the importance of some hands-on training but I don't see why it is necessary. You will save thousands on lack of per diem and M&IE. SATO has to go. Several Divisions have been told not to use SATO by the SAC but A/Ss are saying to use it anyway because there is a gov't contract. Booking online costs $4.25 for skanky hotels, use fedrooms it's free. Use cost comparisons for supply purchases. If paper is cheaper at Wal-Mart buy it from Wal-Mart not Staples.

[Winston Smith]

Perhaps the budget is an area where this website can make a difference? Instead of assigning cars to Admin/Support positions such as DOO's, SOO's, and PIO's, why not provide them with a car only for mission critical travel each day, which does not include home to work privileges. These folks seldom if ever work after hours or need to have take home vehicles. You could also have these staffers pay for their own parking since they would be commuting in personal vehicles. The savings would be astronomical! While we are at it, any SAC or ASAC who has a commute in excess of 50 miles from home to work one way should have to reimburse the "G" for each mile over that amount. Keep the ideas coming.

[Zorro]

1. Elimination of SES positions - GS-15 cap. 2. No commuter cars for office workers (that includes "big dogs"). 3. No AUO/LEAP for admin/support personnel (no cases = no car, no assured OT). 4. Reduced personnel for Vegas/Europe boondoggles - you go, you work. (some improvement already seen here w/SHOT)

[Patriot]

It has been awhile since the status of our budget has come to the forefront. Just this week th AD spoke about all the areas that are being looked at for 2012 in order to keep functioning properly. Much of what he said has already been posted here. Can't help but wonder if they are finally realizing that many of the contributors here, really do have the best interests of ATF in mind. He also said that they are continuing to look at every possible way to save money. So now I present a suggestion. Educate SAC's as to the meaning of "mission critical" I know one SAC who has stated everything is mission critical.

[Doc Holiday]

Lack of Candor was CREATED in the "Final" disciplinary Matrix, CHECK THE TIME LINE, Because Marvin Richardson would have had to be fired, and the OIG coined the phrase directly related to his lies. Now they are tryin to fire brick Agents for lack of Candor related to 3 yr old testimony which was nothing more than the inability to recall minor details exactly. No lies, just a pissed of U S Attorney in Chicago who wanted to blame a field Agent, and a management staff (Traver et al) who were afraid of the political ramifications of standing up to the U S Atty. Cowards. If I didn't know better, I'd say Valerie Bacon is channeling Elenor Loos. You cant get rid of Agents to handle your mismanagement of the salary budget. How about this. ANY SAC who is an SES, whos manypower numbers are the same or less than two years ago, Make them GS - 15 SACs like they have always been. Do the same for allllll the SES' in HQ. Rememeber, when there are no more agents, there is no more SES gravy train for Melson and boys.

No! Do not let ATF do that to you! They have set their precident!

Vanessa McLemore lied to investigators under oath (perjury) on two separate occasions and was allowed to retire and praised as an agency "trailblazer" when she left. That was arranged courtesy of Carter and Hoover.

When someone lies but is not under oath they call it "lack of candor". It is perjury without the formality.

Ask Marvin Richardson how that works. As an ASAC in Phoenix he answered questions with a "lack of candor" to OIG investigators. He then told the OIG that all the Agents who recalled the situation in question in the same way but, different from him, were lying. His lack of candor was documented.

In all their wisdom ATF then promoted him to be the Cheif of the Professional Review Board so he could oversee and impose punishments on Agents for the same violations he got a free pass on! Then he got promoted again to the SAC of Denver.

I dare one person to step up and claim that any of that is not true. Please. Challenge my statements but, be careful. Because when you do I am going to jam the documentation that validates these claims down your throat.

abc, if you need this documentation it will be gladly supplied to you.

[mad dog]

no

[Ike]

For those who want to send an automated message against the ATF proposed multiple reporting, click here: http://onlygunsandmo...power-grab.html Don't wait!

[Ike]

Regarding the ATF proposed information collection action to register multiple sales of certain rifles with ATF from the 04/29/2011 Federal Register: http://www.gpo.gov/f.../2011-10355.pdf

This information collection is both illegal and unnecessary. ATF justification for collection of the data is based upon lies, false and misleading data.

Analysis of the number of firearms seized shows that Mexico may be primarily supplied with firearms by South American countries, NOT the United States. In fact, a STRATFOR report indicates that fully 90% of of the firearms traced in Mexico are NOT coming from the United States, contrary to assertions by ATF and the mainstream media: http://wwwprod-17561...0-percent-myth.

Additionally, Wikileaks cables have shown the US Government is at least partially responsible for supplying Mexico from the United States: http://narcosphere.n...repower-mexico. These firearms are NOT from the US commercial market.

1. ATF admitted it (falsely) overstated the "trafficking" problem and deliberately mislead Congress and the American People. Between 2008 and 2010, ATF quoted 90% of guns seized in Mexico came from the United States. In September 2010, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) Office of the Inspector General (OIG) issued a draft report critical of Project Gunrunner, followed by a final version in November, 2010. The OIG analysis of ATF data shows, of the guns submitted for tracing, a much lower percentage of guns (about 27 percent) traced to the United States. These percentages significantly differ from those in ATF testimony before Congress. See below for additional detail.

Only after being confronted with the OIG analysis, did ATF then admit to the OIG that the 90% figure cited to Congress is misleading. During this 2010 review by the OIG, ATF could not provide updated information on the percentage of traced Mexican crime guns that originated in or imported through the United States.

2. ATF's proposed reporting is overly broad and vague. Rather than "a very narrow group of long guns" as ATF stated, the proposed rule includes a huge number of guns unlikely to be trafficked. Instead of specifying the guns ATF keeps saying are the problem (AK47, AR15, .50 caliber, etc.), they have included a huge number of curio and relic rifles up to 100 years old - of interest mainly to collectors. Many ordinary hunting rifles, and many rifles chambered for obsolete ammunition no longer manufactured are included. This is a strange way to gather information on firearms traffickers!

3. ATF's proposed reporting violates the Firearm Owners Protection Act:

a. By requiring these records be transferred to the United States Government, and
b. Creating an additional system of registration of firearms and firearm owners.

"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation."

4. Once reported to ATF, these proposed registration records never go away, but permanently remain in ATF databases at the National Tracing Center, and if traced, will be reported to corrupt Mexican police.

If a trace links to any of these records, even in error, many innocent American gun owners personal information (including name and address, height, weight, drivers license number, possibly Social Security Number, date of birth, place of birth, and all other guns linked to that last name and date of birth) will be reported with each trace to Mexican police. If your name is Smith or Jones (Garcia or Martinez in the Southwest), there are many people with the same date of birth!

5. ATF is attempting to exceed it’s authority to require reporting of rifles. 18 USC Section 923(g) explicitly gives ATF authority to gather information on multiple handgun sales, but not rifles.

6. ATF has been complicit in supplying Mexican Narco-terrorist forces with firearms. Source documents of the ATF uncovered by US Senator Grassley and US Representative Issa show that ATF has been complicit in supplying Mexican Narco-terrorist forces with firearms: http://www.scribd.co...CEG-to-DOJ-ATF.

7. ATF will use violations of the multiple rifle sale reporting requirement to punish dealers. The proposed rule is vague (by not defining “greater than .22, etc.) and deliberately misleading. As a result, many law-abiding dealers will misunderstand and inadvertently fail to report some sales. These unintentional violations will be used by ATF in attempts to revoke dealers licenses.

8. ATF is attempting an “end run” around Congress. As expressed in a letter from Montana’s Congressman, Denny Rehberg to the President, implementing ATF’s proposal will subject firearms dealers and their customers to:

a. New, onerous reporting requirements that will inevitably track and register the purchases of innocent law-abiding gun owners.
b. Congress authorized multiple sales reporting for handguns, but have never extended this authority to other types of firearms.
c. Expanding multiple sales reporting for rifles by executive decree would be an end run around Congress.

9. ATF is focusing on the wrong group. ATF seeks to restrict and report actions of law-abiding citizens — lawful gun owners and licensed firearms dealers — while largely leaving actual criminals untouched. It’s hard to keep up with the criminals of this world, but really easy to focus on law-abiding citizens who don’t conceal their activities, have permanent addresses, published phone numbers, keep regular hours, and don’t shoot back. The proposed rule doesn't focus on straw purchasers. Rather, the proposed reporting requirement imposes further restrictions on law-abiding citizens by reporting innocent gun purchases to ATF and imposes further restrictions on law-abiding gun dealers who will be prosecuted or licenses revoked by ATF if the new reports aren’t filed properly in the ATF approved manner.

10. ”FFL” holders are already required by law to respond to ATF requests for information on firearms distribution pursuant to criminal investigations: Title 18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(7).

11. There is a grave potential for this regulation to unduly burden citizens who are collectors or must obtain purchase permits at the local or state level to possess firearms. The proposed regulation does not say what the agency intends to do with the information but ostensibly it would be for criminal investigations. Subjecting law abiding gun owners to this type of investigation under the guise of “information collection” is an overt attempt to prevent them from exercising their 2nd Amendment rights to purchase and own firearms.

ATF has repeatedly lied to Congress and the American People regarding sources of seized Mexican guns;

1. On February 2008, William Hoover, Assistant Director for Field Operations of ATF falsely testified before Congress that over 90% of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States.

2. In May, 2008, William Newell, Special Agent in Charge of the ATF Phoenix Office falsely reported: "When 90 percent-plus of the firearms recovered from these violent drug cartels are from a U.S. source, we have a responsibility to do everything we can to stem the illegal flow of these firearms to these thugs."

3. President Obama, Hillary Clinton, California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, CBS newsman Bob Schieffer and several others falsely and foolishly repeated the same 90% figure in public - to the media.

4. On April 02, 2009, Fox News published "The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.".

5. On June 19, 2009, The U.S. Government Accountability Office falsely reported to Congress (based on ATF data), "Over 90 percent of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced over the last 3 years have come from the United States."

6. On July 16, 2009, William McMahon, Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations, ATF, falsely testified before Congress that about 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico that ATF has traced were initially sold in the United States. (Committee on Homeland Security Subcommittee on Border, Maritime, and Global Counterterrorism, U.S. House of Representatives, concerning “Combating Border Violence: The Role of Interagency Coordination in Investigations”).

7. In September 2010, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) Office of the Inspector General (OIG) issued a draft report, followed by the final version in November, 2010, critical of Project Gunrunner. The OIG analysis of ATF data exposed the false statements and shows, of the guns submitted for tracing, a much lower percentage of guns traced to the United States, ranging from 44 percent in FY 2005, falling to 27 percent in FY 2007 and 31 percent in FY 2009. These percentages significantly differ from those in ATF testimony before Congress (see above).

8. Between September and November 2010, ATF admitted their prior statements were false and that “the 90% figure cited to Congress could be misleading because it applied only to the small portion of Mexican crime guns that are traced.” During this 2010 review by the OIG, ATF could not provide updated information on the percentage of traced Mexican crime guns that originated in or imported through the United States.

9. In October 2010, ATF announced they would no longer release estimates of how many guns came from the United States because the numbers have become "too politicized". ATF’s Kenneth Melson stated, "It doesn't matter if 20 percent are coming from the U.S. or 80 percent...". [Many people think it does matter...]

10. On December 14, 2010, despite ATF's announcement they would no longer release estimates, yet, NBC reported "U.S. firearms agents estimate that around 80 percent of the weapons used by Mexican drug traffickers come from the United States...", a percentage previously disavowed by ATF and discredited by the DOJ OIG in November 2010 (see above).

11. On February 10, 2011, Stratfor Global Intelligence published an analysis which concluded "almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States."

12. On April 5, 2011, in a formal letter to a constituent, Senator Tom Udall (D-NM) [who should know better], repeated the same lie, “According to ATF, 90 percent of the weapons seized in Mexico are from sources within the United States.”

ATF has failed to address significant misleading factors in eTrace statistics of seized Mexican guns; legitimate export sales. These firearms are included in eTrace statistics, which further skews the statistical reports.

ATF fails to separately identify:

1. American origin guns legitimately sold to the Mexican military.
2. American origin guns legitimately and commercially exported to the Mexican gun shop in Mexico City.
3. American origin guns legitimately sold to Mexican police - at the Federal, state or local level.
4. American origin guns legitimately sold to Mexican banks, private security firms, or other companies.
5. American origin guns legitimately sold to other Mexican government entities.
6. American origin guns legitimately sold to police, military, security companies or private parties in other countries, which were later smuggled into Mexico from those countries.

Further, ATF fails to properly address:

7. American origin guns exported many years ago. (Average age of traced Mexican guns is over 14 years).
8. Foreign guns with American markings never imported into the United States for any number of reasons.
9. Counterfeit guns made elsewhere with fake American markings. ATF acknowledged this is a problem.
10. Frequently, pictures of seized Mexican guns show many .22 rimfire rabbit rifles and sporting shotguns. Are these included in ATF statistics? ATF doesn't say.

In an April, 2011 study titled "Update on U.S. Firearms Trafficking to Mexico Report", author Colby Goodman reported that ATF now reports tens of thousands of Mexican trace requests are duplicates. In some cases, ATF received information on the same firearm up to five times as Mexican police, a crime lab, the military, and the Attorney General’s office all write down information on the same firearm, and the Attorney General’s office in Mexico City submitted trace requests on all of them.

As as result of these duplicate 'successful' traces:

1. The American first purchaser receives up to five duplicate 'crime gun' trace reports on one gun that he may have innocently bought years ago.
2. The selling dealer will also receive up to five duplicate 'crime gun' traces on his record.
3. Mexican authorities submitting the traces will receive multiple duplicate trace reports providing the personal information (name, address and personal data) of the American first purchaser, and the name and address of the selling dealer.
4. Statistics on "seized Mexican guns" are even more seriously inflated than previously reported.

[GoodWorker]

Sir,

I appreciate the response, and believe me, I or anyone in my circles have any ill will toward you hard working agents, or any LEO who is sticking his neck out to protect the American people for that matter. I also get your point on the whole "They're coming for us" thing, and normally I ignore it. Especially if theres a Congress/Administration I am at least mildly comfortable with. I'm not that good a writer, so maybe I was too vague or inconsistent, but we have your back sir as agents and appreciate the grueling hours and work that you put in to keep America safe. I feel its an extremely short sighted mistake to paint any agency, group, or community with a broad brush. I did counterdrug work with the DEA and Arkansas State Police back in 2000-2001, so I understand how perception isnt always reality and how you can become the boogieman over night. That said, the political/bureaucratic wing of your agency sometimes scares the bejeezus out of me.

I agree and appreciate everything you put in your reply. I just hope the Constitution and our society are strong enough to allow our children to enjoy the freedoms we both have served and worked so hard to protect. Stay safe, and keep your powder dry. We ever meet up, the first beers on me. Be home in another 6 months.

Check out this link for an article from Time magazine in 1995. Do you see the reoccuring themes?

http://www.time.com/...,983197,00.html

[Doc Holiday]

Mr. Melson and Hoover, Please stop with the disgruntled, malcontent accusations against everyone who steps up and tells the truth. You have not realized that you have a whole shitload of disatisfied field staff. Are you going to just classify ALL of them as disgruntled? That's a page out Martins management book. IF Cefalus a malcontent, why is he being idled at taxpayer expense. Same with Dobyns. Same with Dodson and Gil and Jaquez and on and on. We approached you and your inner circle didn't want that because they would have immediately been shown for their incompetence and corruption. Everytime you and your staff starts scapegoating another Agent,Inspector or clerical worker, you send another member to CUATF. Because unlike Mr. Melson saying it on national television, WE really WON'T tolerate reprisals and retaliations. We don't go backwards in order to sully an agents reputation as you are doing to Dodson. Why else would you have agents (NOT IA) out re-interviewing old suspects in an attempt to generate information to discredit him? Are you doing it for all F and F cases or just Dodson. You called the ball so step up and own it with whatever personal integrity you MAY have left.

[GoodWorker]

"We’re not investigating the sale of guns across the border. We’re investigating the lack of judgment at the highest levels."
"This goes all the way to the top. … If you made a decision this felony stupid you shouldn’t be making decisions any longer on behalf of the American people." Darrell Issa, Chairman of the House Oversight Committee, April 2011

ATF Executive staff,
Notwithstanding political agendas which we all know exist, it is time to retire, resign, and step down for most of our executive leadership. You have failed and you have done so across the board. Are you going to wait until they close down our appropriations? You have lost the trust and confidence and respect of the field. There is only a small handful of management across the country who will still support you. The American people are livid and demand accountability.

As a gentle reminder, the Democrats have always been on our side. During the post Waco period DeConcini and Republican James Lightfoot used ALL their power to save and rebuild us, but NOW you have the most powerful Congressman in the country holding you in contempt. You have insisted that a handful of self promoting managers had ALL the answers to the issues that confront this Bureau. We have fought tooth and nail to be heard and stop the train wreck everybody but you and your staff saw coming.

You have the ability to do the right thing. Your careers are not without merit and MOST of your service has been honorable and is and should be respected in its totality. HOWEVER, you have disgraced this Bureau and everybody who stood by and lied and manipulated to allow this to happen must quietly leave. Msrs. Melson, Hoover, Chait, Newell, Gillette, Martin, Ford, Ficaretta, Loos, Bouman and others can NO longer lead with any respect or authority. If you question my views, review the OVER 100,000 views of this website. The hundreds and hundreds of Postings and new membership WHICH GROWS DAILY. Of the 100,000 views, how many of your 5000 employees are included in those numbers? Do you think they are aware of the outrageous conduct and abuses of those who have been left in power?
Withholding information from the Legislative branch and manipulating data is NEVER a good idea, but it is unacceptable from a Federal Law Enforcement Agency. These are difficult times and difficult decisions must be made. Let your LAST decisions show that you LOVE this Agency and the sacrifices made by its Agents for decades, AS MUCH AS WE DO. BY STEPPING ASIDE WITH A REBUILD AND TRANSITION PLAN, YOU CAN LEAVE WITH DIGNITY AND HONOR. Do not continue with this scorched earth policy. The truth is coming out daily. Not even your managers are going to continue to withhold information.

Well said.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

"We’re not investigating the sale of guns across the border. We’re investigating the lack of judgment at the highest levels."
"This goes all the way to the top. … If you made a decision this felony stupid you shouldn’t be making decisions any longer on behalf of the American people." Darrell Issa, Chairman of the House Oversight Committee, April 2011

ATF Executive staff,
Notwithstanding political agendas which we all know exist, it is time to retire, resign, and step down for most of our executive leadership. You have failed and you have done so across the board. Are you going to wait until they close down our appropriations? You have lost the trust and confidence and respect of the field. There is only a small handful of management across the country who will still support you. The American people are livid and demand accountability.

As a gentle reminder, the Democrats have always been on our side. During the post Waco period DeConcini and Republican James Lightfoot used ALL their power to save and rebuild us, but NOW you have the most powerful Congressman in the country holding you in contempt. You have insisted that a handful of self promoting managers had ALL the answers to the issues that confront this Bureau. We have fought tooth and nail to be heard and stop the train wreck everybody but you and your staff saw coming.

You have the ability to do the right thing. Your careers are not without merit and MOST of your service has been honorable and is and should be respected in its totality. HOWEVER, you have disgraced this Bureau and everybody who stood by and lied and manipulated to allow this to happen must quietly leave. Msrs. Melson, Hoover, Chait, Newell, Gillette, Martin, Ford, Ficaretta, Loos, Bouman and others can NO longer lead with any respect or authority. If you question my views, review the OVER 100,000 views of this website. The hundreds and hundreds of Postings and new membership WHICH GROWS DAILY. Of the 100,000 views, how many of your 5000 employees are included in those numbers? Do you think they are aware of the outrageous conduct and abuses of those who have been left in power?
Withholding information from the Legislative branch and manipulating data is NEVER a good idea, but it is unacceptable from a Federal Law Enforcement Agency. These are difficult times and difficult decisions must be made. Let your LAST decisions show that you LOVE this Agency and the sacrifices made by its Agents for decades, AS MUCH AS WE DO. BY STEPPING ASIDE WITH A REBUILD AND TRANSITION PLAN, YOU CAN LEAVE WITH DIGNITY AND HONOR. Do not continue with this scorched earth policy. The truth is coming out daily. Not even your managers are going to continue to withhold information.

[SFC_Swede]

Sir, I appreciate the response, and believe me, I or anyone in my circles have any ill will toward you hard working agents, or any LEO who is sticking his neck out to protect the American people for that matter. I also get your point on the whole "They're coming for us" thing, and normally I ignore it. Especially if theres a Congress/Administration I am at least mildly comfortable with. I'm not that good a writer, so maybe I was too vague or inconsistent, but we have your back sir as agents and appreciate the grueling hours and work that you put in to keep America safe. I feel its an extremely short sighted mistake to paint any agency, group, or community with a broad brush. I did counterdrug work with the DEA and Arkansas State Police back in 2000-2001, so I understand how perception isnt always reality and how you can become the boogieman over night. That said, the political/bureaucratic wing of your agency sometimes scares the bejeezus out of me. I agree and appreciate everything you put in your reply. I just hope the Constitution and our society are strong enough to allow our children to enjoy the freedoms we both have served and worked so hard to protect. Stay safe, and keep your powder dry. We ever meet up, the first beers on me. Be home in another 6 months.

[Ike]

John Boy:

Prepare to be shocked and surprised then, because ATF is releasing first purchaser data to Mexican authorities - and Colombia, Guatemala, Costa Rica, El Salvador, and Panama - just to mention a very few. Mexico and Colombia have their own in-house tracing centers, staffed by Mexican and Colombian nationals, directly connected to eTrace. You may recall that eTrace Version 4.0 is the bilingual version deployed in January to Mexico, Guatemala and Costa Rica. ATF has officially announced a specific goal to provide eTrace capability to all 31 states within Mexico. A trace system that doesn't release trace results wouldn't be much of a trace system, would it? You should review my eTrace postings in "Tracing and Industry policy mismanagement" here on CleanUpATF.org. I've got references for virtually everything I've written.

From: "FFL Newsletter", June 2010 http://www.atf.gov/p...ter-2010-06.pdf

"What information is provided to the foreign law enforcement agency?
ATF provides foreign and domestic law enforcement agencies with similar information, with the exception of Social Security number of the firearm’s purchaser (if provided on ATF Form 4473). The Social Security number of a firearms purchaser is not provided to foreign law enforcement agencies."

"The identity of the firearms purchaser provided to a foreign law enforcement agency is of particular concern to people, because the purchaser is not necessarily involved in any crime. FFL and retail purchasers of firearms recovered in crimes by law enforcement may not have committed any crime; ...... ATF traces firearms for more than 50 foreign countries each year, either through eTrace or via request by Interpol. ATF has no record of an American being at risk in a foreign country as a result of innocent involvement in the history of a firearm subsequently recovered and traced by a law enforcement agency." Just how would ATF know if an American was put at risk? Can anyone explain?

According to the U.S. State Department, Americans have become victims of harassment, mistreatment and extortion by Mexican law enforcement and other officials - even without being identified in a trace report. It should also be noted that in Mexico (as in many other countries), anyone accused of a crime is "guilty until proven innocent", and cash bail may be the only option to avoid incarceration.

ATF isn't allowed to share trace information between different police jurisdictions, but advertises to those police agencies that they can share between each other and release trace data on their own. Kinda defeats the intent of the legislation, doesn't it?

ATF isn't supposed to be creating databases with purchaser information, but they're doing it regardless of the law. Read the ATF Fact Sheets, where it's all laid out for us.

ATF can't get multiple sales reports on 'assault-style' weapons - because:
1. Unlike multiple handgun reports, it isn't allowed under current law,
2. ATF didn't restrict the reports to 'assault-style' weapons, but overreached and tried to include every semi-auto ever made with a detachable magazine over .22 caliber - including 100 year-old guns. Stupid.

[John Boy]

John Boy: Again, I appreciate your comments. A lot of what you say makes sense.

On one point, I'll have to disagree. Giving info to Mexico doesn't appear to be a myth. In April, 2010 the author of “U.S. Firearms Trafficking to Mexico: New Data and Insights Illuminate Key Trends and Challenges” by Goodman and Marizco, interviewed an ATF official in Washington who admitted, “If a trace is successful, Mexican authorities receive information from ATF such as when the firearm was purchased, the name of the person that purchased the firearm, and the total number of firearms the person may have purchased.“ Goodman is a numbskull, but I've done a lot of reading and research on this issue, and it appears that ATF is indeed, providing first purchaser personal info to the Mexicans. But don't take my word for it.....

Ike,
I don't claim to be the holder of all knowledge, but I would be shocked and surprised to find out that we are sharing purchaser information from the trace reports with Mexico. We aren't even allowed to share information from US Police department to US Police department, even if they agree to give each other access to the information. Again, I could be wrong, but I think congress would be having a fit if we were sharing trace data with Mexico without their permission. Our trace data is strictly controlled by congressional mandate. We are not allowed to create databases with purchaser information. We can't even get multiple sales reports on assault weapons. Most of the firearms traffickers are quickly learning how to circumvent our FFL reporting requirements.

[Historic Arms LLC]

From my point of view what is destroying ATF is it's management team. You have revolving doors in headquarters, some less than effective leaders using that situations an opportunity to work their way up, failure is nearly certain.

You add to that the internal law firm at ATF [ATF chief counsels office] that has by default ran the place in the leadership vacuum. Now one of theirs {CCO} is a Deputy Assistant Director {TF}. CCO has grown it seems so that there is one of their attorneys in nearly every field office.

Some of the craziest crap seems to come from CCO both toward the industry and street agents. You add in the fact it appears they dictate to Firearm Technology Branch testing formats or results...it gives the entire bureau a bad name.

Fact is most ATF street agents I know are decent folks looking to prevent bad guys from making mayhem or hurting good folks. Only a few over the years were real turds. I suspect that in any group of people your going to have that.

To ATF employees on this forum:

Does any other Federal Law Enforcement have their own in house law firm?

Why does ATF need one now that they are under DOJ since the Homeland Security Act?

Has ATF CCO done anything positive? I can't find anybody praising them to date...


I'm looking for the source of the universal discontent with the bureau (from within and without), I suspect CCO may one of the major sources, if not THE source. Identify the root cause, and address it seems to be the first step in fixing any situation.

[Ike]

John Boy: Again, I appreciate your comments. A lot of what you say makes sense.

On one point, I'll have to disagree. Giving info to Mexico doesn't appear to be a myth. In April, 2010 the author of “U.S. Firearms Trafficking to Mexico: New Data and Insights Illuminate Key Trends and Challenges” by Goodman and Marizco, interviewed an ATF official in Washington who admitted, “If a trace is successful, Mexican authorities receive information from ATF such as when the firearm was purchased, the name of the person that purchased the firearm, and the total number of firearms the person may have purchased.“ Goodman is a numbskull, but I've done a lot of reading and research on this issue, and it appears that ATF is indeed, providing first purchaser personal info to the Mexicans. But don't take my word for it.....

[John Boy]

Ike, While I don't have a crystal ball and I can't truly examine ever example of ATF's "stupid stuff", I can tell you that every agency makes mistakes that potentially ruins lives and careers. Most agencies do the best they can to prevent it from happening, but again, "stupid stuff" happens. The only perfect person I know of was crucified 2,000 years ago. I could bad mouth other agencies to make my point, but I think we can all agree that everyone makes mistakes. We don't run NICS, that's the FBI. We don't give purchaser information to Mexico, another myth. Trust me, if you saw the traces that come from Mexico, it's a miracle that anything gets traced. I have seen trace request from Mexico that only have - .223 caliber. No make, model, serial number, nothing. If the military was held to the same standard as ATF, we would still be contemplating Pearl Harbor. The bottom line is ATF is the only agency that has the third largest lobbying group in the US using it as a whipping boy. I wonder how the FBI, DEA, USMS, etc.. would stand. Remember, under Reagan, the ATF was to be disbanded until the NRA realized that the FBI would be taking over the gun laws. Be careful of what you wish for. Unlimited funding and ten times the agents. J. Edgar Hoover will have a field day. ATF has problems and they need to be addressed. The biggest is accountability. The same lessons we teach our children seem to be lost on DOJ. When you do something, take responsibility and explain yourself. Then learn from the incident and make improvements. Trust me, DOJ is pulling ATF's strings.

[Ike]

John Boy: I appreciate your comments. However, unlike most other agencies and organizations, some ATF 'stupid stuff' ruins lives and careers..... By 'Brady', I presume you mean the NICS Background Check. I agree that it appears to be stopping some criminals from buying guns from dealers. Unfortunately, it seems to be moving from blocking actual criminals, to "potential" criminals and "thoughtcrime".... Which might be ok if they had an infallible crystal ball to foretell the future. I also agree with you that tracing can produce suspects - and it would be appropriate for ATF and the firearms community to work more closely together. And then we have the eTrace situation where American first purchaser personal info is passed directly to Mexican authorities (possibly corrupt). Would you care to comment on that?

[John Boy]

You are right about the stupid stuff. No doubt every agency, department or corporation has stupid people pulling stupid stunts. No matter where you work, that is true. Tracing provides great leads on trafficking and straw purchases. Before Brady came about, it was even more powerful. Believe or not, a lot of criminals just went in and purchased guns from FFLs. People have been convicted on the 4473s or yellow form. I have done it. I had Armed Career Criminals or ACC (person previously convicted of three violent felonies) purchase guns and fill out of the forms from an FFL. I have convicted multiple criminals because of the trace. Today, it doesn't happen very often because of Brady. Today, because of tracing and multiple sales, we find traffickers and straw purchasers. It happens quite often. Don't believe everything you read. These tools work. I wish ATF would bring in a rep from the NRA and work more closely with them. I think we could come to a better understanding. I really believe that guns don't commit crimes, criminals commit crimes. We don't have enough agents to enforce the laws on the books. The last thing we need is more gun laws.

I believe I am representative of most ATF agents.

[Ike]

John Boy:

That's a powerful post.... We fully support the decent hardworking agents, supervisors, and administrative employees who spend their time hunting and locking up the 'bad guys'. However....., there's a bunch of other ATF employees, supervisors, administrative types, and lawyers who do concentrate on creating stupid regulations and rulings, and who target FFLs for minor bookkeeping violations and criteria based on nonsense.

ATF also has the entire National Tracing Center, which seems to be spending much of it's time trying to "Make Chicken Salad out of Chicken Shit" (as Winston Smith just posted), spouting statistical nonsense. (Now, I grant that occasionally a trace will generate a genuine investigative lead - but traces also point to a lot of innocent people.)