95 replies to this topic

[Doc Holiday]

That's just a hilarious song. If it wasn't tied to the most dismal time in this agency's history, it would be even funnier. With the exit of Billy Hoover, can anyone count how many SACs, AD's, DD's and Directors have left in outright shame and degradation? And took part of this agencies credibility with them? Lets Start with Domenech and Bouchard, Gordon and McLemore. A security firm hired Billy after his shameful performance in this agency? Wow.

[Observer]

The official ATF Song....

http://ec.libsyn.com...60&c_id=4768699

[Doc Holiday]

RUMOR HAS IT, the FAAP is meeting again. Anybody have any information?

[Doc Holiday]

Lack of accountability and personal integrity. Mr. Jones aint a lawman, but we all expected better from Mr. Brandon and Turk. Notwithstanding the difficult times they face, they have not hesitated to pull the trigger on line Agents for far less egregious violations of our oath. Our last hope may be to bring in strong competent OUTSIDE lawmen leadership. IF we even still have a chance. They came out of the gate strong. Man did they fizzle quick. But hey, at least they reigned in that heinous Dobyns with that personally delivered 5 day suspension WHEW. As long as Newell, Mc Mahon, Gillette, Voth, Gleysteen, Martin, Crenshaw, Ford and Torres are still unscathed, for COMPLETELY TANKING THE CREDIBILITY OF THIS GREAT AGENCY. Cowardly yes but more shameful is they are COUNTERFEIT.

I agree Patriot. The panel tried to do the right thing. However, the money and energy was never necessary that I could see. The things the panel brought to HQ’s attention, were things HQ already knew. After all, they are the ones who created this mess. As is always the case with these panels, all that happened was the panel members have now been put onto HQ’s nasty radar. They can expect retaliation to follow.

There is a long history behind these panels and it always comes out the same way. If there is leadership, the leaders would actually be DOING something, not standing around, scratching their collective asses, and acting like they don’t know what the hell the problem is. They know exactly what the problem is. It’s them. It’s no surprise that they don’t want to fix themselves.

[Patriot]

This is the hot topic around here as well. By all indications it is a dead initiative. I feel sorry for the committee members who put forth a great effort and took their responsibilities serious. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with their suggestions, I believe they tried to address the most serious concerns of the rank and file. Management once again has failed the organization, abused hard working employees and demonstrated their inability to make a decision. Jones and Brandon seem to be paralized by political fear and therfore completly ineffective. Their lack of leadership amounts to larceny of their paycheck. They are paid to lead and make decisions and there is no evidence of that being done. It is so sad to see the selfishness of managers, not invested in the organization only concerned about themselves. Cowards !!! I do not use that word freely, it is, in my opinion the worst thing you can say about a person. I think it applies.

[Doc Holiday]

Has ANYONE heard word ONE about the FAAP committee? Was this just a play by Mr. Jone and Msrs. Brandon and Turk to quiet the uproar over their survey result about unethical and incompetent management? They came out of the gate strong, and then just went away. NOT the FAAP members, the management enthusiasm.

[Zorro]

I believe Doc's post speaks to the core of this agency's dysfunction - no professionalism; no sense of duty; no honor; no public service. The badge is just metal - the culture that allowed its physical and symbolic damage with no accountability is what ails us.

For those who are laughing at congress and feeling comfortable that the gun lobby will rescue ATF again if the wolves are at the door - careful what you think you know.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Madea, I'm reasonably certain he was talking about MY badges. I think he was making the point that our leadership only pays attention to that which can hurt them and their bosses. I would hope Doc was pointing out the significance of THE BADGE to the line Agent and how disgusting this one act was and how symbolic it is of the pettiness of the Old Guard. I got brand new ones with my same badge number. So at the end of the day, the only ones who suffered were the tax payers AND the credibility of management and Internal Affairs. I think you were referring to Jeff Ryan as one of the Agents who quite possibly was pressed to the edge and committed suicide at the hands of the previous regimes. DON'T expect them to care. Remember, Ms. Loos (who hired and trained almost ALL of the current attorneys in the Ethics div.) is of the opinion that EEOC, Grievances are just bitching platforms and bosses will be protected at all cost.

Dear Doc, excellent post. It’s clear that you have a very deep emotional attachment to this badge, however, why don’t we focus on the lack of investigations and sloppy investigations, regarding events tied to severe management harassment of employees? Why not focus on the managers who push an agent to suicide? Was Agent Medrano’s suicide ever investigated? Was anyone fired over that? I personally notified Loos. ATF knew about Medrano’s emotional state as they continued to harass him. Why the sloppy investigation over the new agent who was shot in the head by his training agent? Sorry Doc, but there’s a litany of agents who have been damaged severely and I.A.’s lies have always been accepted by management to the detriment of the families of the deceased. Currently there’s a suicide case where an agent was driven to the brink by management, but Julie Torres is too busy trying to find out who is posting on CleanUp to investigate an agent’s death. Why is no one accountable in the deaths of Medrano, Brad Brown, and Brian Terry (just to name a few)? And let’s not forget the intense coverup going on right now on the death of Agent Terry.

Good job Tom and Todd! You’ve covered up the death of Brian Terry very effectively so far. Everyone should give both of you a standing ovation for your most excellent efforts. Everyone should recognize that the two of you are obstructing justice in the death of this young agent. But let’s not forget public opinion has always been that “Tom is a nice guy”. Let me tell you folks, this kind of a “nice guy” deserves a blanket party.

Back to the destruction of this badge Doc - Todd and Tom should be much too busy to be “re re re” investigating the destruction of a piece of tin.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Outrageous. Same coaches same old approaches. Perhap this explains the crumbling of this agency at breakneck pace.

AS CLEAR AND AS CREDIBLE AS MUD.

Ken Melson: I will not address anybody who uses pseudonyms and spouts vitriolic statements at managers.

B. Todd Jones: I want people to use pseudonyms but ONLY in the arena I control and can spin. Those who want accountability before trust and order can be restored to the agency and in management are small minded people, (quote from Atlanta town hall). Stop looking backwards. THEN he asks us to believe his "confidential" portal is confidential.
Factor in that the FAAP already told him openly, candidly and transparently exactly what is wrong, and how to fix it. All SEEMED well, UNTIL the leadership decided WE CANT HOLD Chief Counsel to the same standard as lowly field Agents. ANY HOPES OF CREDIBILITY WENT RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW. Yes Mr. J, the fact that you are a lawyer and pulled the Chief Counsel criticisms down makes YOU NOT the change agent but the spin doctor. PS, have you seen the recent survey regarding your managers and your leadership? May, just MAY have to do with your obvious goal of tamping down dissension and pretending none of this happened. While Hoover, Chait, McMahon, Newell, GiLlette, Voth, Ford, Martin, John Torres, Gleysteen and Crenshaw are STILL CARRYING ATF BADGES, ANY REORGANIZATION OR SHIFTING AND SMOKE AND MIRRORS WILL FAIL.

[Doc Holiday]

The title of this post is an oxymoron. A government run survey PROVES what was said in 2010 regarding retaliation and reprisal and gross mismanagement. Yet Loos only get shifted to a equal position. The agency has terminated or attempted to terminate more field agents in 5 years than in its ENTIRE history. Yet the architects of the failed border programs, the failed ESF 13 program, the failed arson/explosive and NRT program and of course Fast and Furious debacle are ALL still actively employed. Mr. Jones, we may not be friends of Mr. Obama, or important Bureaucrats, but WE ARE SPECIAL AGENTS. That means we know the difference between change and rhetoric. Sidenote: Mr. Jones has directed Internal Affairs to report the circumstances of the SF Agent whose badges were destroyed by two managers RAC Downs and now DAD Gleysteen. Seriously? They destroyed them (which should have resulted in immediate termination AND an asswhippin). Instead, Crack IA investigator Fred Milanowski called the two (the only two who ever touched the badges), took their telephonic denials. Then after it was revealed that Gleysteen contacted a program manager and solicited the manager to lie and say the badges were damaged in transit, IA Inv.Milanowski panicked because his apathetic and shoddy investigation was being scrutinized, sent the damaged badges to the lab. FOR WHAT? Can't do tool mark comparisons without a tool MORON. NOW, two Directors later, Mr. Jones is RE RE RE inquiring. Why not just polygraph both bosses. Dobyns house is burnt to the ground and not ONE ATF Agent is assigned to respond? Why are Newell, and Gillette still getting a paycheck again? They DID however fly Dobyns to D.C. for an ADFO to PERSONALLY suspend him, #1 to protect the Phoenix FD(violation of the chain of command), #2 suspended him for telling the truth. Oh, THATS RIGHT, that only applies to subordinates.

Not only is the Secret Service running rings around us in professionalism, even the freak show that is GSA ousted the hot tub party guy and several others in the wake of their scandal. Granted, it looks like hot tub was allowed to retire so as to continue to soak the taxpayers for life, but at least he is not on the role any longer.

http://usnews.msnbc....d-with-gsa?lite

[Zorro]

Not only is the Secret Service running rings around us in professionalism, even the freak show that is GSA ousted the hot tub party guy and several others in the wake of their scandal. Granted, it looks like hot tub was allowed to retire so as to continue to soak the taxpayers for life, but at least he is not on the role any longer.

http://usnews.msnbc....d-with-gsa?lite

[Doc Holiday]

AS CLEAR AND AS CREDIBLE AS MUD.

Ken Melson: I will not address anybody who uses pseudonyms and spouts vitriolic statements at managers.

B. Todd Jones: I want people to use pseudonyms but ONLY in the arena I control and can spin. Those who want accountability before trust and order can be restored to the agency and in management are small minded people, (quote from Atlanta town hall). Stop looking backwards. THEN he asks us to believe his "confidential" portal is confidential.
Factor in that the FAAP already told him openly, candidly and transparently exactly what is wrong, and how to fix it. All SEEMED well, UNTIL the leadership decided WE CANT HOLD Chief Counsel to the same standard as lowly field Agents. ANY HOPES OF CREDIBILITY WENT RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW. Yes Mr. J, the fact that you are a lawyer and pulled the Chief Counsel criticisms down makes YOU NOT the change agent but the spin doctor. PS, have you seen the recent survey regarding your managers and your leadership? May, just MAY have to do with your obvious goal of tamping down dissension and pretending none of this happened. While Hoover, Chait, McMahon, Newell, GiLlette, Voth, Ford, Martin, John Torres, Gleysteen and Crenshaw are STILL CARRYING ATF BADGES, ANY REORGANIZATION OR SHIFTING AND SMOKE AND MIRRORS WILL FAIL.

[Patriot]

Remember the term "too big to fail". It was frequently mentioned with regard to GM, Chrysler and several big banks during the economic downturn. The government realized the bailouts were necessary to keep them going. ATF has a similar term, "too broken to fix" Notice that nothing has been done to fix anything, because one failure highlights another and so on. Management is afraid to take any corrective action for fear that another failure will come to light beyond those that are known. I disagree with the strategy and think it is self serving of management, but it has become clear that nothing will change at ATF and management will spin everything to give themselves credit for saving ATF using the logic that any drastic measures may lead to abolishment. The wastefull spending at SOD should not come as a surprise to anyone. They have had an open check book for years with little or no oversite. Dont forget that a small contigent of competative Glock shooters tried to influence the aquisition of Glocks. Didn't anyone think it strange that they were carrying Glocks on duty before any testing was done. Before anyone says that was the test, I ask, was anyone at SOD carrying any other make?

[Iceman]

Since appropriations is the topic. Does anybody know what the outcome of the INTERNAL AFFAIRS investigation into SOD was? Apparently Pallets full of gear were purchased with allegations of bid rigging and underhanded dealings with vendors. It is said THOUSANDS of flashlights were purchased. That perks from vendors (including possible housing arrangements)were exchanged. That IA confirmed the allegations, and then the responsible bosses were transferred out and the findings were QUASHED. At a time when we are running off agents, Closing down our arson and explosive capabilities, Why is this being covered up? Well then again, why are we flying Agents to HQ to personally receive 5 day suspensions from the ADFO? Those with information please provide ASAP and it will be forwarded to the appropriations folks and oversight.

[Doc Holiday]

The following is a quote: FROM AN EXTREMELY WELL PLACED SENIOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL. SEE ATTACHED 2013 APPROPRIATIONS BILL

Quote:(The Highlights are "additions" to the text to CUATF)

The bill repeats the usual language of ATF can't have its duties
assigned to anybody else, and there's nothing about how ATF should be
internally reorganized--and I doubt that Appropriations would get into ATF
management issues unless something really exploded. HMMMM Like failed programs, promoted managers who were responsible for failed programs, failure of accountability of corrupt managers. this must be the "change" Mr. Jones keeps referring to. Oh thats right, we have a motto now, WHEW.....burn, bang, book, bada bing, bada boom.

There's some effort to keep some explosives jurisdiction under ATF that I
saw, and a requirement for ATF to not lie about what e-Trace data says
about use of firearms in crimes, but my guess is those things aren't high
on your radar. SOME?????? So now we are the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and SOME Explosives?

DOJ is hanging ATF out to dry. GO FIGURE We refuse to believe that with the focused and determined response from our NEW NEW leadership. They would NEVER roll over. After all we are ATF. Oh my bad, Mr. Jones said we have to play nice and stop demanding accountability. Holder ought to back ALL of his people, and
he's not doing that. ATF is going to get progressively crazier and
crazier, beyond belief, and those dumb ass ATF managers are going to get
people turning on each other, dog eat dog, and show utterly no mercy. WOW, that's a new spin. So unlike previous Executive philosophy's and Ms. Loos' playbook. The
idea is to intimidate the shit out of the people at ATF who do all the
actual work, get them scared, and really F#$% with people who don't go
along with it. Jones is no more than a lackey, a place holder who could
give a shit. Look what that weasel Melson did, and look for more of that,
so much for Melson giving a shit about anybody except himself
Again, notice the absence of ANY dynamic future plans for repairing ATF in the approp. bill. For clarity, THE ABOVE HIGHLIGHTS WERE ADDED TO THE TEXT FROM THE WELL PLACED GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL.

Attached Files

•  ATF2013Appropriations.doc   72KB   13 downloads

[Patriot]

So true Vince. These initiatives are bogus attempts at satisfying politicians all in the hope that they will be supportive when it comes time to allocate budgets. How has that worked out for us in the past. I have talked to agents that have been launched on these details. They usually arrive in a new city and it is make it up as you go, no preparation, no planning, no cooperation from USAO, local agents become handholders and when it is over have to deal with the aftermath. Frankly, if I were a SAC, I would be embarrased to have to supplement my Division with outside agents for anything but a large takedown. A Division should handle its own crime problems, why do other Division have to be impacted and at what cost, not only financially but from an operational viewpoint. Investigations have momentum, take agents away from what they are doing and their work loses momentum as does that Division's local strategy. A SAC who decides there is a particular crime problem that has to be attacked should divert his own resources and not rely on any others. Maybe then some thought would go into the value of doing it. We are all aware that these details have been done before. I question whether anyone ever made an after action assessment of the value of the detail. Until that is done and some value is documented there is no reason to think they make a difference in crime rates.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Surge? Seriously? Didn't we JUST have to run off a large portion of our senior agents and inspectors because our salary budget is obscene and we are so top heavy that we are going to tip over? So now that we are operating at about 70% of our needed strength, with very little real experience in the field, we are going to rob other field divisions to concentrate on divisions that have high crime rates? Where did that money come from? Do you think each field division sends their best workers to these things? They don't. You will get their dogs. If they send their best then those field divisions will be short. If its a short term surge, save our money. 30 days just to find their way around. Another 30 days to get marginally productive. Another 30 days to start finalizing cases and reports and 30 days to stand down. DOES ANYBODY think these things through? Padding the stats with a bunch of adopted cases isn't going to suggest success.Everybody see's right through the smoke and mirrors. The absence of ANY focus on the day to day mission in this agency suggests there is more to this silliness that meets the eye. And at what cost to tax payers? Who comes up with these ideas? You gotta wonder how many AGENTS, REAL AGENTS sat in on the planning of this foolishness.

The latest with the "mobile" Violent Crime Agency:

Here in [city redacted by Webmaster], we're getting "surge" detail of 20-30 agents for 120 days -- [dates redacted by Webmaster] or so.

Mayor Nutter went to AG Holder and told him that Obama needs to win [a certain U.S. state] to get re-elected. The only way Obama can win that State is to get out the vote out in [subject city] and the only way he'll get it is if something is done with the rampant everyday violence here. Holder called in the FBI and the VCA and basically, the FBI ignored Holder. VCA jumped all over it since it fits in with B Todd's vision.

Agents from around the country have already received notification of the detail. An "advance" team of bosses and Intel people are in town already, identifying home invasion rings and Hobbs Act robbers so that when the detail agents get here, there will be targets for them.

Dare I note, if these targets already exist, why hasn't anything been done yet? Why are we waiting? Well, I think that's due to the fact that the USAO declines everything left and right, EVEN FBI cases. And who runs the violent crime section here in the [subject city] USAO? Kathy Stark -- Tony Tropea's old friend [more on him later].

Besides bringing in agents from out of town [let's see, travel, per diem, hotel---what will that cost?] -- and let's not wonder, for now, what will happen to their cases Back Home -- the existing groups/teams in the city all have to give up a couple of agents for this surge.

The group made out of the out-of-towners will be run by PIO Steve Bartholemew. It's the second time in his brief tenure as [subject city] PIO that he's been made an Acting RAC. A little background on Steve -- he worked [subject city's] HIDTA with Tony Tropea under Sam Rabadi. The three of them got transferred to Trenton when one of their cases got screwed up. Tropea cried like a little bitch when he got transferred -- tough [subject city] boy that he is. He's gotten to spend his whole career in his home town and has a sense of entitlement that he deserves to get promoted without transferring. But I digress -- Tony cried that he couldn't do cases in Trenton [only 30 miles north] because he HAD NO LOCAL CONTACTS. He got back to [subject city] within weeks. Steve stayed in Trenton; Rabadi made it back to [subject city] as ASAC when Stankiewicz literally got caught trying to pull down his pants on Intel GS Jill Tucker during the Coatesville Serial Arson case [the same case which made national headlines].

Steve went on and passed the -14 AC. The Trenton RAC slot opened when Rabadi went to [subject city], so Steve thought the job was for his taking. However, Mat Horace gave it to Kent Montford. Steve got upset and wanted an explanation from Horace, who told him he didn't have the breadth of experience [I paraphrase -- I don't think Horace knows the meaning of breadth except maybe the lisping plural of bread?] So, Rabadi and Tropea, who had [subject city] SAC Mark "Cadillac" Potter's ear, got Steve transferred into [subject city] as the **new** PIO [even though [subject city] hadn't had the need for a PIO for two years] in exchange for our [subject city] based FIC [we now have an FIC who works 70 miles away in [another city].

Almost immediately upon his arrival in [subject city], Steve was made acting GS of Tropea's group, the band of merry thugs, while Tropea was anointed acting ASAC, replacing Russ May. This being the same Tropea who has worked his whole career in one city doing only HIDTA cases.. This, in the same city in which we have two GS's with HQ experience, both of which has actually passed the GS-15 AC. Steve then got to work as a GS for almost a year. He went "back" to PIO back in January, but five months later, he's given another group to run.

As for the local agents tasked for this surge, they will work in an "expanded" Tropea "super" group. This detail will work 0900 to 1700 [and I know exactly who will get those easy hours since Tropea's group is known for "owning the late afternoon" --whereas the NYPD Street Crime Unit "owns the night"] and noon to 2200 or so. I don't know who responds to those shootings after 2200 which seem to be the plurality here.

From a separate source, I hear that a surge is also planned for [several other big cities] [Madea should get a kick out of that]. How much money are we going to spend on details when it could be used to actually hire agents?

Yes, the new mobile Violent Crime Agency. It's just that arson and explosives aren't considered violent any more.

[Patriot]

With that thought, it will be interesting to see where the "surge efforts" are directed. We all know where the first one is going, there will be more. I suspect they will be in states where Romney is strong.

[x1811]

The latest with the "mobile" Violent Crime Agency:

Here in [city redacted by Webmaster], we're getting "surge" detail of 20-30 agents for 120 days -- [dates redacted by Webmaster] or so.

Mayor Nutter went to AG Holder and told him that Obama needs to win [a certain U.S. state] to get re-elected. The only way Obama can win that State is to get out the vote out in [subject city] and the only way he'll get it is if something is done with the rampant everyday violence here. Holder called in the FBI and the VCA and basically, the FBI ignored Holder. VCA jumped all over it since it fits in with B Todd's vision...

This is troubling:

FUBAR states; "Mayor Nutter went to AG Holder and told him that Obama needs to win PA to get re-elected. The only way Obama can win PA is to get out the vote out in Philly and the only way he'll get it is if something is done with the rampant everyday violence here. Holder called in the FBI and the VCA and basically, the FBI ignored Holder. VCA jumped all over it since it fits in with B Todd's vision."

So, is ATF now being used as a political tool to re-elect Obama? It seems Holder is still intent on using ATF as a political tool again. First Fast and Furious, now this. Be careful folks! ...just sayin!

[FUBAR]

The latest with the "mobile" Violent Crime Agency:

Here in [city redacted by Webmaster], we're getting "surge" detail of 20-30 agents for 120 days -- [dates redacted by Webmaster] or so.

Mayor Nutter went to AG Holder and told him that Obama needs to win [a certain U.S. state] to get re-elected. The only way Obama can win that State is to get out the vote out in [subject city] and the only way he'll get it is if something is done with the rampant everyday violence here. Holder called in the FBI and the VCA and basically, the FBI ignored Holder. VCA jumped all over it since it fits in with B Todd's vision.

Agents from around the country have already received notification of the detail. An "advance" team of bosses and Intel people are in town already, identifying home invasion rings and Hobbs Act robbers so that when the detail agents get here, there will be targets for them.

Dare I note, if these targets already exist, why hasn't anything been done yet? Why are we waiting? Well, I think that's due to the fact that the USAO declines everything left and right, EVEN FBI cases. And who runs the violent crime section here in the [subject city] USAO? Kathy Stark -- Tony Tropea's old friend [more on him later].

Besides bringing in agents from out of town [let's see, travel, per diem, hotel---what will that cost?] -- and let's not wonder, for now, what will happen to their cases Back Home -- the existing groups/teams in the city all have to give up a couple of agents for this surge.

The group made out of the out-of-towners will be run by PIO Steve Bartholemew. It's the second time in his brief tenure as [subject city] PIO that he's been made an Acting RAC. A little background on Steve -- he worked [subject city's] HIDTA with Tony Tropea under Sam Rabadi. The three of them got transferred to Trenton when one of their cases got screwed up. Tropea cried like a little bitch when he got transferred -- tough [subject city] boy that he is. He's gotten to spend his whole career in his home town and has a sense of entitlement that he deserves to get promoted without transferring. But I digress -- Tony cried that he couldn't do cases in Trenton [only 30 miles north] because he HAD NO LOCAL CONTACTS. He got back to [subject city] within weeks. Steve stayed in Trenton; Rabadi made it back to [subject city] as ASAC when Stankiewicz literally got caught trying to pull down his pants on Intel GS Jill Tucker during the Coatesville Serial Arson case [the same case which made national headlines].

Steve went on and passed the -14 AC. The Trenton RAC slot opened when Rabadi went to [subject city], so Steve thought the job was for his taking. However, Mat Horace gave it to Kent Montford. Steve got upset and wanted an explanation from Horace, who told him he didn't have the breadth of experience [I paraphrase -- I don't think Horace knows the meaning of breadth except maybe the lisping plural of bread?] So, Rabadi and Tropea, who had [subject city] SAC Mark "Cadillac" Potter's ear, got Steve transferred into [subject city] as the **new** PIO [even though [subject city] hadn't had the need for a PIO for two years] in exchange for our [subject city] based FIC [we now have an FIC who works 70 miles away in [another city].

Almost immediately upon his arrival in [subject city], Steve was made acting GS of Tropea's group, the band of merry thugs, while Tropea was anointed acting ASAC, replacing Russ May. This being the same Tropea who has worked his whole career in one city doing only HIDTA cases.. This, in the same city in which we have two GS's with HQ experience, both of which has actually passed the GS-15 AC. Steve then got to work as a GS for almost a year. He went "back" to PIO back in January, but five months later, he's given another group to run.

As for the local agents tasked for this surge, they will work in an "expanded" Tropea "super" group. This detail will work 0900 to 1700 [and I know exactly who will get those easy hours since Tropea's group is known for "owning the late afternoon" --whereas the NYPD Street Crime Unit "owns the night"] and noon to 2200 or so. I don't know who responds to those shootings after 2200 which seem to be the plurality here.

From a separate source, I hear that a surge is also planned for [several other big cities] [Madea should get a kick out of that]. How much money are we going to spend on details when it could be used to actually hire agents?

Yes, the new mobile Violent Crime Agency. It's just that arson and explosives aren't considered violent any more.

[Citizen]

Lest We Forget.....

It's been 19 years: Waco, 19 April 1993

This is not intended to denigrate those dedicated and ethical ATF employees who served with honor, but to remind us of those who did not.

http://www.hardylaw.net/waco.html

Waco, Ruby Ridge, Fast & Furious.... How many ATF disasters do the American People have to endure before this Agency gets "Cleaned Up"?

[Doc Holiday]

Can ANYONE confirm that someone in charge of our computer services, dropped the ball regarding the service and maintenance contract and we are currently paying in a the area of 3 Million dollars, yes that's $3,000,000 a month to maintain our Government computers? PLEASE say it aint so. Please say with our budget limitations and the word that we are getting no new cars, will have huge administrative and investigative restrictions in the coming year isn't because we have another failed manager. And please tell me he/she has NOT been promoted.

[Zorro]

Ike, once again we are in agreement but while you are acknowledging reality, no use hoping for the ideal. I don't know if Peele is even alive in the agency, much less a common philosophy.

Other info inbound.

[Ike]

Absolutely. Not too long ago a nice industry member introduced an idea that would have been burdonsome and distracting to agency, collectors, and industry with zero safety aspect if it had come to fruition - not to say that it won't because the folks who tried to run with it are persistent.

No one in the agency was giving it a thought until the mail man arrived. Consequently, several groups had to burn considerable time, effort, and money dealing with it.

No offense intended, Zorro, but isn't that part of ATF's job? For which we (the taxpayers) provide funding? If not, it should be. It's not all about busting civilians for having a couple of Brillo Pads and a legal silencer, or having a piece of string hanging off a Mini-14. Or is it? Oh, wait.... The more "criminals", the more funding ATF can request, right? And the more arrests and prosecutions ATF can report, right? If ATF helps people, that doesn't fit well on any of the reports, right?

ATF should be more about helping citizens not break the laws. It should be more about willingly providing helpful information to keep us on the straight and narrow. It should be about allowing periodic amnesties to permit registering that MP-40 that Grandpa captured on D-Day, or that full-auto AK47 that Dad sent back from 'Nam. After all, machine guns are perfectly legal if properly registered. Oh, wait. If ATF allowed an amnesty, that would mean Grandpa and Dad would no longer be criminals, right? And that 1910 Maxim silencer that Mom found in Grandpa's estate? That means Mom is now a criminal, too. Not to mention that H&R .410 Handigun that was out on the farm since 1920 to keep the rats out of the barn? Mom didn't know it was supposed to be registered. And that rusty MG.08/15 that Great Grandpa had in his barn since 1918? Or the DeWat that Dad legally bought back in 1960? No one knew ATF had changed their minds about DeWats and it's now illegal. In 1960, it wasn't even a firearm - just a hunk of wood and steel which could be sold to anyone.

Heaven forbid that ATF would actually help people by encouraging amnesties to get those NFA weapons off the streets..... Why, according to ATF, "An amnesty would suspend enforcement of the NFA. Pending investigations and prosecutions for violations of the NFA might have to be terminated." You mean these folks would no longer be criminals? [Gasp!] Heaven forbid! If these NFA weapons were properly registered (with the help of an amnesty), there would be no violation of law and no need to prosecute! And how, exactly, is this a problem?

Aren't there enough real criminals out there to chase without putting Grandpa in jail and destroying Mom and Dad's lives?

[Historic Arms LLC]

Zorro,

Are you willing to give us hint of what you are talking about?

What was the burdensome idea?

Where are the several groups spending time, effort, and money; ATF or outside the ATF?

It is pretty well known I pushed for the Fairness in Firearms Testing Act, maybe your speaking about that and myself? Ike has a point and I can see yours. From bitter experience; even if an industry member approaches ATF with concerns or ideas to make life easier for ATF and the industry it gets ignored. Only a select chosen few will the ATF sit down with. Even then it only happens if ATF management see it in their best interests.

I only seek compliance as a manufacturer. Getting a straight timely answer that won't be spontaneously reconsidered seems to be beyond ATF's current management doctrine. How many times in anticipation for a court case has ATF issued spontaneous "reconsideration" letters to bolster a prosecution or forfeiture?

What would happen if the shoe were on the other foot? Imagine an ATF manager, Chief Counsel attorney, you, or one of your co-workers, getting a unrequested letter stating you have to take a $10K loss in income? A $100K loss in income? The letter would end if you don't take the loss we are going to try and put you in jail?

To give you a real life example: I approached ATF with a product idea. I consulted with FTB prior to construction. I send it in and the "classification" is based on duct tape, plastic wire ties, aluminum plates, and chains being attached to it. I try and talk with ATF (no luck). I let them begin a forfeiture and seizure case to get it in front of a judge (ATF kept the submitted sample). I bring up a similar product to explain the error in judgment.

ATF's response? To send a spontaneous letter to the manufacturer of the example I used in my discussions with them and declare it's use now is unlawful...

How do we (read that the firearms industry and ATF employees) fix this broken system?

[Zorro]

Still think it cuts both ways?

Absolutely. Not too long ago a nice industry member introduced an idea that would have been burdonsome and distracting to agency, collectors, and industry with zero safety aspect if it had come to fruition - not to say that it won't because the folks who tried to run with it are persistent.

No one in the agency was giving it a thought until the mail man arrived. Consequently, several groups had to burn considerable time, effort, and money dealing with it.

[Ike]

Lest we forget......

On June 26, 1934, Congress passed the National Firearms Act (NFA), since amended, to limit the availability of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, sound suppressors (silencers), and other similar weapons. The NFA required a registry of all NFA firearms in the United States that were not under the control of the United States [government]. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) maintains NFA weapon registration records in a central registry. This central registry, called the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR), consists of all registration documents, attachments to those documents, and an electronic database that includes information from many of the documents and that enables computerized searches of the registry.

Treasury IG has also investigated and documented problems ( OIG-99-009, dated October 26, 1998, and OIG-99-018, dated December 18, 1998). Some of the problems and errors include:

• Thousands of registrations to dead persons (firearm whereabouts unknown - Unknown disposition)
• Duplicate registrations (same weapon registered to different persons)
• Duplicate registrations (same weapon registered twice to the same person)
• Unknown numbers of registrations destroyed by BATF employees
• Unknown numbers of transfers which BATF failed to update in the NFRTR.
• Unknown numbers of legal transfers destroyed by BATF employees (who were transferred, not fired).
• Unknown number of erroneous updates to registrations by BATF employees
• Thousands of existing registrations no longer required because requirement was administratively removed by BATF.
• Many registrations are for guns now defined as antiques and exempt from registration.
• Registrations for guns never required to be registered.
• Illegal registrations allowed when BATF failed to follow their own amnesty procedures and allowed such registrations beyond the 1968 amnesty.
• Registrations to incorrect or obsolete addresses.
• Incorrect or inaccurate serial numbers
• Mispelled or inaccurate names.
• Mispelled or inaccurate make or model.
• Registrations for non-existent weapons (spurious registrations).
• Current location of many (if not most) registered NFA firearms is unknown.

In other words, ATF has lost track of hundreds of thousands of machine guns, and other restricted firearms. Where are they? Who owns them? ATF doesn't know. However, ATF repeatedly states "...we do not believe that the fact that an individual registrant is deceased affects the accuracy of the Record or that it make the registry unreliable or ineffective as a law enforcement tool. To the contrary, the registry is reliable and effective for law enforcement purposes...." (Oh, yeah?)

Remember the infamous statement Busey made at the roll call teleconference: "When I came on board (as chief NFA 2 years earlier) the registry [NFRTR] was suffering from a 49-50% error rate. We have reduced that to an approx 8% error rate. However, as you are aware, we have always and will always testify the NFA registry is 100% accurate".

Under Section 207(d) of the Gun Control Act of 1968, Congress authorized the Secretary of the Treasury to establish unlimited numbers of amnesty periods, not to exceed 90 days each, after publication of notice of his intention to do so in the Federal Register. A 30 day amnesty was declared in Nov./Dec., 1968, but none since. BATF has consistently objected to another amnesty - even though multiple amnesties were the specific intent of Congress in 1968. Many people think BATF should have other, more important work to do instead of prosecuting otherwise honest citizens for technical violations and spending time objecting to an amnesty.

Selected Quotes by John W. Magaw, BATF Director. in a letter dated Nov. 19, 1999, regarding a proposed amnesty:

"As you know, the Secretary of the Treasury has authority to establish amnesty periods if such periods would contribute to the purposes of the NFA."

"Since 1968, the Department of the Treasury and ATF consistently have taken the position that ......granting an additional amnesty period would be of no value."

"We do not support your proposal for another amnesty period."

"Moreover, further amnesty periods would disrupt our efforts to enforce the NFA."

"The fact that the registrant [NRFTR] is deceased does not affect the validity of the registration."

"The NFRTR is reliable and effective for law enforcement purposes, as it accurately reflects the identity of the person legally entitled to possess a particular firearm."

Has anything changed since 1999? Does ATF ever change?

[Ike]

And that's exactly why people write stupid letters. Not to elicit stupid responses, but to keep from going to jail for doing something totally innocent. If I own a silencer, then now I'm damn sure not going to stockpile any Chore Boy pot scrubbers around my house. Brillo Pads, maybe.....

You say common sense cuts both ways? Well, if any of us civilians make a minor technical error (like having a couple of Chore Boys in the same house as a silencer), we can go to jail. If Firearms Technology violates common sense with such a stupid ruling, us civilians still go to jail. People in Firearms Technology put in their years in and retire...... Still think it cuts both ways?

If this agency had an ounce of common sense, then it wouldn't be necessary to write stupid letters. Unfortunately, there are also some agents (and agent wantabes) who will attempt to prosecute (or persecute) individuals for trivial technical violations. That's why civilians write letters to get stupid rulings.

Hell, you can improvise a silencer with an old rag wrapped around the muzzle. Next thing you know, Firearms Technology will rule that rags must be registered.... Where does it all end?

[Zorro]

Not the first time it has been suggested by people inside and outside the agency, but we are too smart to get input.

Conversely, people in the public and industry might consider not writing stupid letters with the intent of eliciting stupid responses then doing a Fred Sanford routine when said response arrives. Common sense cuts both ways.

[Retired and loving it]

One step forward, three steps back. Cant figure out for the life of me why the gun owning public and the industry wont cooperate with us. Oh yes I can because we waste their time and money on such rulings while real criminals are shooting up our neighborhoods. Mr. Jones, form a cross section panel made up of industry folks and civilians to review ridiculous rulings and to possibly insert a level of common sense into our process.In the end, it will save us money, time and grief, and allow our stakeholders to be involved.

An excellent idea Vince.

Mr. Jones, I'll bet your staff says "Don't listen to this rabble rouser". But Vince has a good idea and it's more than well worth you considering it.

Let's give some balance to the screwy Firearms Technology decisions of the past. FT people and OCC people in ATF do not have all of the answers and quite often they don't show any common sense in their decisions.

As an aside, everyone in ATF should be investigated to see if they own stock in Brillo Pads. Anti-competition seems to be the only reason for such a senseless ruling as the Chore Boy one. Geez, now people cant even buy in bulk! Costco, Sam's Club, and BJ's need to sue.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

One step forward, three steps back. Cant figure out for the life of me why the gun owning public and the industry wont cooperate with us. Oh yes I can because we waste their time and money on such rulings while real criminals are shooting up our neighborhoods. Mr. Jones, form a cross section panel made up of industry folks and civilians to review ridiculous rulings and to possibly insert a level of common sense into our process.In the end, it will save us money, time and grief, and allow our stakeholders to be involved.

News Flash!

On November 26, 2010, the ATF Firearms Technology Branch ruled that common household Chore Boy pot scrubber pads (and simple fiberglass insulation) are NFA Firearms subject to a $200 NFA registration fee. First, they declared strings to be machine guns, and now they decided that Chore Boy pot scrubbers are silencer parts.....

Brilliant!

http://www.examiner...._alerts_article

What's next?

[Ike]

News Flash!

On November 26, 2010, the ATF Firearms Technology Branch ruled that common household Chore Boy pot scrubber pads (and simple fiberglass insulation) are NFA Firearms subject to a $200 NFA registration fee. First, they declared strings to be machine guns, and now they decided that Chore Boy pot scrubbers are silencer parts.....

Brilliant!

http://www.examiner...._alerts_article

What's next?

[Doc Holiday]

There are multiple instances around the country where the U S Attorney attempts to scapegoat ATF Agents for whatever personal gain or to cover their own culpability or unethical conduct. They are accountable and can be investigated. Ask Mr. Hurley and Mr. Burke.
If the agency isnt backing you up, use the media. Its unfortunate, but until Mr. Jones or someone in Congress removes ATF counsel from calling the shots in this agency and resolves some of these abuses, the only forum is the court of public opinion.

I have notified OIG ASAC, OSC is also aware of FACTS along with ATF I.A. I hope OSC takes this seriously because when an official of the courts i.e. an AUSA or AUSA's abuses his or her authority and puts the public in danger that is in-excusable. I beleive this happens all over the counrty NOT just Arizona. AUSA's ARE NOT GODS, as some in ATF unfortunately believe, they should be held to the same standard as anyone else in public service, you lie/cover-up facts for whatever agenda it is a crime and if it is exposed REPORTING SUCH MISCONDUCT should be imperative.

[mad dog]

I have notified OIG ASAC, OSC is also aware of FACTS along with ATF I.A. I hope OSC takes this seriously because when an official of the courts i.e. an AUSA or AUSA's abuses his or her authority and puts the public in danger that is in-excusable. I beleive this happens all over the counrty NOT just Arizona. AUSA's ARE NOT GODS, as some in ATF unfortunately believe, they should be held to the same standard as anyone else in public service, you lie/cover-up facts for whatever agenda it is a crime and if it is exposed REPORTING SUCH MISCONDUCT should be imperative.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

YES they do. The SAME duty to report applies. However, do NOT look for senior management to admit error OR fulfill their obligation to report.....FAST AND FURIOUS?????? You can and should report ethical and judicial misconduct to the Attorney Generals ethics division in DC, The Office of Special Counsel and The DOJ OIG. If your SAC be it Chicago or elswhere failed to report or attempted to ignore such conduct out of political reasons, you should report him or her as well. THIS SORT OF CORRUPTION must stop now.

QUESTION?

If ATF Management finds that an AUSA gave ATF a document with false information, pertaining to an agent and that ATF finds that that document/INFORMATION was in FACT found to be false against an agent, does ATF management have a responsibilty to report their findings to either ATF OPR or OIG for follow-up?

[mad dog]

QUESTION?

If ATF Management finds that an AUSA gave ATF a document with false information, pertaining to an agent and that ATF finds that that document/INFORMATION was in FACT found to be false against an agent, does ATF management have a responsibilty to report their findings to either ATF OPR or OIG for follow-up?

[Ike]

I've got a question for the Agents. According to James Moore, retired ATF SAC, ATF agents are trained to shoot for only one reason - to kill. His recall of ATF (Treasury) training is; "You shoot only to save a life - yours or someone else's. Once that test is met, and only then, you always shoot to kill."

Is this an accurate statement of ATF training/policy?

What about a duty not to retreat?

Thanks for the assistance.

[The Original Ralph]

Mods - please delete - somehow my edit showed up as a 2nd reply

[The Original Ralph]

TO GIVE that report a little more depth, the complete "shoot himself in the foot" statment Busey made at the roll call teleconference: "When I came on board (as chief NFA 2 years earlier) the registry was suffering from a 49-50% error rate. We have reduced that to an approx 8% error rate. However, as you are aware, we have always and will always testify the NFA registry is 100% accurate"

Gary Schaibel then got on the podium, right after Busey and tried to do damage control, which basically made it worse. Jim Jeffries was the attorney that discovered the Busey seminar (tipped off by a FBI buddy of his alerting him to it) and used it to win the appeal on the conviction of an honest dealer, convicted by Gary Schaibel's perjured testimony re the registy's accuracy. When i read the attached mag article, i called jim asking him if that magazine article was true or was it a magazine writer selling magazines. his response was "there was material they should have put into print that they didn't". It was actually worse than just what's in print

Courthouses around the country manage to keep real estate titles straight & accurate (real estate deed room at your local courthouse is no different than the NFA machinegun registry), and land title chains can get extremely convoluted, considering you can subdivide land, rejoin parcels later and then re-subdivide that new parcel. I'd have thought that on something like machineguns, silencers etc, ATF would be religiously sacrosanct in their record keeping.

When jim introduced the roll call transcript into the appeals trial (after getting Schaibel to repeat the 100% accurate stmt four times on the stand), and embarrassing Schaibel with it, the judge stopped the trial, overturned the conviction and took an unprecedented step (jim's words) - he ordered treasury to re-imburse the dealer for all attorney's fees he'd incurred to date. Jim asked the judge to indulge him, while they had Schaible on the stand under oath, and allow him to ask a couple more questions related to another trial Jim had coming up in Ohio - the judge did. Jim Jeffries
asked Schaibel if anyone at NFA had been reprimanded for "malfeasance in the performance of their duties in any way related to the charges levied against his client in this case".

Schaible, not knowing if jim was on a fishing expedition or had more material to embarrass him with, fessed up that "2 staff members were "punitively" transferred, having been caught shredding faxed in forms (registration & transfers) to lighten their own work load". The subject machine guns that ATF NFA were claiming were "unregistered" had been faxed in. So basically a dealer lost his house, store, all inventory, hit with a $250,000 fine & a 20 yr sentence in a federal gray bar hotel, with his wife and 2 teenage sons living in his brother-in-laws basement, all because NFA wanted to shield themselves from the embarrassment of how sloppy their record keeping was (and still is).

Jim later sued ATF and i'm sure won him millions in the settlement, but the guy is free only by the grace of god that he found Jim to represent him, and that Jim had a FBI buddy who knew about the roll call training teleconference. Otherwise he'd still be making license plates with his kids growing up with a "convicted felon" for a father.

In the meantime, because of this discovery, a number of convictions of true felony machinegun violations have been subject to being overturned because of ATF Management's basic lack of integrity & professionalism.

Two weeks after the roll call teleconference, Busey was re-assigned back to alcohol (i assume as a quality control taster) and Gary Schaible was made "acting chief NFA" and remained so for a number of years before his retirement.

[Ozark Noodler]

Regarding ATF lies.... Some of you may not have seen this very interesting internal ATF document:



By ATF's own admission, NFA employees always testify that the NFRTR is 100% accurate when they know it's not.

I personally would never testify to it being 100% accurate. It is a paper and computer system. It is operated by humans. Everything, including humans who work for ATF, is fallible. The system, ANY SYSTEM, is only as good as the input information and the person doing the input. So, any agent who actually testified it was 100% accurate was foolish and not very learned in how to testify about anything. Just like using a tape measure, the distance is approximate, never EXACT.

AS to Brad Buckles, he was the Atty relied upon and heavily consulted by the 2 Dans during the WACO aftermath. The 2 Dans were forced to retirement, no punishment. Buckles stayed in HQ, hired female attys he found [deleted by the Webmaster], and was the JOKE that MAGAW left for us on his way out the door. SO, Buckles says, hey I don't need that executive protection, just let me drive myself. HAHAHA, No what he meant was I'm [deleted by the Webmaster] the ATF Ethics Atty Monique Korn, don't get in my way you pesky agents. So when he was about to slide into the Director's spot with no problems as a direct appointment of Atty General Ashcroft, he just couldn't control his lust. [deleted by the Webmaster] What a putz! Next we bring you Edgar Domenech, always Acting, but never the Actual Director. Then we got oh so lucky with MAGAW's baby prodigee, churchlady Truscott, then back to Edgar, then Sullivan, the R. Carter, then Melson. Sullivan was a descent man, as is R. Carter, but they had no way of actually controlling the insane SES muck within ATF. They were lied to be SES and those wanting to be SES. They were decieved by SES on a regular basis. HQ is not a place for making friends, it is like Survivor, you make alliances. You strive for a Coup. Trust me, a coup is ongoing, so let's see what turd rises to the top of the HQ toilet bowl next. Any bets? I'm banking on a DAD to come out of this mess without a scratch, and to then be appointed "acting". Efforts will be made to bring in Traver but you can be assured the DAD will be building strong alliances just in case Traver gets the job.