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Fox News: Senator Calls ATF on Allegations Agency Is Allowing Guns Into Mexico


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#1 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 09:56 AM

THE WITCH IS DEAD!

Mr. Melson is finally gone and not a minute too soon! Mr. Melson, who presided over the FAST AND FURIOUS debacle should have been gone a long time ago! Hopefully his minions will soon follow!

Some of the mistakes Mr. Melson made:

  • He allowed his executive staff to lie to him and to continue in place even when he knew they were lying to him. (Career killer for an Acting Director)
  • He blindly trusted Billy Hoover. Did I say he was on the executive staff? Please refer to #1.
  • He does not seems like he found common ground with the other law enforcement components in DOJ, i.e. the Fast and Furious scandal with DEA and FBI involved indirectly. I would not be surprised if it turns out there are other agencies involved...
  • Continued the retaliatory environment at ATF.
  • Did not resolve some of the outstanding complaints from some of your more controversial figures Vince Cefalu, Hiram Andrades, Jay Dobbins and others...
  • Maintained the status quo related to the quid pro quo, which is rampant at ATF.
  • He did not reassign the entire executive staff to Justice and got his own executive staff.
  • He allowed Eleaner Loos to continue her path of destruction until that CNN Report came out that blasted her for having diarrhea of the mouth.
  • He got into this false sense of security of thinking that everything was OK when it was not.
  • He did not have an original thought of his own.

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For Clean Up ATF!

#2 Bulletman

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 07:58 AM

Senator Grassley's Friday Newsletter:

For Immediate Release
September 2, 2011


Revised Account in Fast and Furious


In a stunning development late yesterday, the Justice Department told me that there had been 31 firearm recoveries in the United States and Mexico linked to Operation Fast and Furious, the ill-advised strategy that allowed guns to be purchased by known straw buyers and then transferred to people often transporting the guns across the border into Mexico.

The latest revelation comes from answers to questions for the record to Attorney General Eric Holder when he was testified on May 4 before the Senate Judiciary Committee, of which I am the Ranking Member. Questions for the Record are written questions for witnesses testifying before the committee that Senators are unable to ask in person.

The Justice Department initially answered my questions on July 22. I was disappointed that the Attorney General didn't answer all of my questions and even the questions the department answered were not complete. Soon after receipt of the answers, the department indicated to my staff that one answer in particular was inaccurate.

The question asked, "In addition to the two guns recovered at the Terry murder scene, how many of the guns connected to Operation Fast and Furious that have been recovered were recovered in connection with violent crimes in the U.S.?"

In the July 22 response, the department said that "…ATF is aware of 11 instances where a recovered firearm associated with this case was recovered in connection with a crime of violence in the United States."

Now, in revised answers, the department said that instead of 11 instances where a recovered firearm associated with this case was recovered in connection with a crime of violence in the United States, there is one additional firearm associated with Fast and Furious recovered in the United States (in addition to the two recovered at the murder scene of Brian Terry).

"21 additional firearms associated with Operation Fast and Furious that were recovered in Mexico and reportedly were associated with violent crimes."

The Justice Department has been less than forthcoming since day one, and this latest response is so convoluted and incoherent that it appears the department is trying to hide something instead of providing straight answers. So, the revisions here are hardly surprising, and the numbers likely will rise until the more than 1,000 guns that were allowed to fall into the hands of bad guys are recovered, most likely years down the road. What we're still waiting for are the answers to the other questions the Attorney General failed to answer per our agreement. The cooperation of the Attorney General and his staff is needed if we're ever going to get to the bottom of this disastrous policy and help the ATF and the department move forward.

© 2008, Senator Grassley


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#3 MidwestCR

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 01:02 AM

In re. to #4:

I can't imagine the ATF stands ANY chance of getting an actual director while Obama is still in the White House. Obama will never nominate anybody but seriously anti-2nd Amendment people, and that will never pass through the Senate.

A perfect example is Traver. Traver will never make it, his blatant lying on television to that reporter about AK47's has branded him as either an idiot or an incompetent liar with a political agenda to every Republican and pro-gun Democrat legislator.

So that's another 2 years to 6 years of no director.

Why the powers that be can't just appoint somebody who knows and will enforce the law, I don't know. There is zero need of politics in the director of ATF, it's not even a standalone agency. DOJ has more than enough politics in it, you ATF guys should just be allowed to do your jobs.

#4 smiley

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:50 PM

mmmm.....puuuuuke......

#5 The Original Ralph

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:22 PM

this would be the same Burke that filed a motion denying the Terry family victim status in the Avila case

i'd say he was a puke, but that would be redundant

if you find that video, i'd like to see it

#6 The Shocker

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:03 PM

Apparently, there's a video of (now) former US Atty Dennis Burke's testimony before Congressional investigators where he cries and pukes like a little girl.

Probably not relishing the thought of a "regime change" in a years time, followed by the inevitable Indictments...Burke should be ashamed to be prosecuting Citizens for real, or contrived violations of Federal Gun Law while KNOWING that Agents of the ATF and other agencies were doing WORSE!

Does one have to be a scummy hypocrite to be a US Atty? This commentator has no idea.

I'd sure love to see that video tho.

TS.

#7 Retired and loving it

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 06:39 AM

ISpy, re: # 5, if I had just been moved to the DC funny farm, I think I would rent -- then when I'm pushed around again, I could leave quickly and only have to pay a penalty for breaking a lease.

#8 ISpy

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 07:01 PM

  • Read that ACTING Director Jones has been friends with Holder for years. I immediately wonder if he wasn't put in place to help cover DOJ's preverbial ass. Hasn't everyone been saying that DOJ has been muzzling ATF Mgt to protect themselves? Is this going to be more of the same? Let's put one of our guys over there at ATF to better control it from within. Save our political careers and to hell with them.
  • Word is Martin will be #2 man. Wasn't he gonna be #2 under Traver? With Jones keeping his day job, is this just to quell the masses and then go back to his Minnesota gig or perhaps bigger and better at DOJ or the Federal Courts If he does a "good job" in Holder and Obama's view and then try to get Traver back in.
  • With Jones having been twice appointed as USATTY by Clinton and Obama and having been friends with Holder for years that makes me wonder about his politics. Quite evident he is a Democrat. Will he leave his politics at the door or is he going to be pushing their political agenda from inside ATF. We are already trying to do an end run on rifle multiple sales in the border states. What else? Only time will tell I guess.
  • Just as Vince pointed out....another ACTING. I can't even remember the last time we had an actual Director. I can see those meetings in DC. All the LE Agency heads go to a meeting. Directors of this, that and the other take a seat at the table. Our Acting has to go get the coffee. Acting just can't carry the weight and have the same pull for our Agency as those that are not Acting.
  • Sort of wonder what will happen with the rest of the first string at HQs. Waiting for the other shoe to drop. Do they all stay in place? Do those that just got moved around move around again?
  • Does the House and Senate realize we WANT to work and that we are good at what we do? Are they more concerned with politics? If Holder knew and I can't believe he didn't, he needs to GO, however don't pass over us as an afterthought in an attempt to get him and his subordinates who were in the mix. Give us some GOOD PERMANENT LEADERSHIP who will clean house and bring a sense of decency to management.
Maybe Jones will be good for us, but don't expect me to be getting a tingly feeling in my leg just yet.

#9 VINCENT A CEFALU

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:37 PM

This is the Elephant in the room. The new Acting Director said there "was precedent" for wearing "two hats". This is true; Michael Sullivan did it and we all see where we are at. All of this may have culminated on Mr. Melson's watch, but the ship started listing a long time ago. That precedent should not be repeated. This Bureau needs a full-time Director, acting or otherwise, not a part time one. There is a reason employees cannot exceed 10 hours a week on outside-the-Bureau employment. Let's Hope Mr. Jones is Superman. At least he has exposure to Law Enforcement as a Commanding Officer of a U S Marine M.P. Company. This also means he knows good leadership principles and has been taught by the best in the world. We'll see, said the Zen Master.

Such very good theater. Your rumor machine is now saying that the original man that your President wanted to be for the director job will be Mr. Jones' lieutenant. How can Mr. Jones be the director and the attorney for Minnesota at the same time? Will not Mr. Traver be the real person in charge? Where does Mr. Hoofer go? Why is no person from ATF being dismissed completely?


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#10 beckroge

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 01:06 PM

Such very good theater. Your rumor machine is now saying that the original man that your President wanted to be for the director job will be Mr. Joneses lieutenant. How can Mr. Jones be the director and the attorney for Minnesota at the same time? Will not Mr. Traver be the real person in charge? Where does Mr. Hoofer go? Why is no person from ATF being dismissed completely?

#11 spinax489

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:01 AM

Speaking of reassignments..any word on the three agents reassigned?? Did they choose to be reassigned or were they forcibly reassigned..?

#12 VINCENT A CEFALU

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 09:39 PM

Semper Fi

I commend all our heroic agents who stepped forward to blow the whistle on the f and f as well as the other topics exposed on this forum. Some people in high places were held accountable today. Semper Fi!


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#13 GoodWorker

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 07:43 PM

I will certainly give him a fair shot at our leadership but I think this is all temporary while Traver gets approved. I am still leary of anyone favorable enough in the eyes of the Obama administration to warrant an appointment. That in itself should tell us what we need to know as far as the 2nd amendment and other issues.

I commend all our heroic agents who stepped forward to blow the whistle on the f and f as well as the other topics exposed on this forum. Some people in high places were held accountable today. Semper Fi!

#14 Guest_old school_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 05:12 PM

I will certainly give him a fair shot at our leadership but I think this is all temporary while Traver gets approved. I am still leary of anyone favorable enough in the eyes of the Obama administration to warrant an appointment. That in itself should tell us what we need to know as far as the 2nd amendment and other issues.

found this for a bio on him

http://www.justice.g...ao/mn/oped.html

don't see anything re his attitude or position on 2nd amendment



#15 Guest_old school_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 05:07 PM

Burke got sick during questioning? I absolutely love it when attorneys are forced to answer questions instead of spewing them! How many times have we felt like puking from the retaliation and stress from bad vindictive managers? Me? Many times.

Apparently Dennis Burke has resigned, his deputy demoted to a "lesser post", and 3 out of 4 of our dear whistleblowers have been reassigned. I'm assuming these 3 wanted to move out of AZ and are not being given a punitive move. I hope they have not been punitively moved.

http://www.foxnews.c...furious-uproar/



#16 retired1811

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 01:05 PM

The good news is you have a new acting director. The bad news is that the new acting director did not quit his day job.

#17 VINCENT A CEFALU

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:55 PM

With the departure of Mr. Melson and Mr. Hoover and quite surely several if not numerous more corrupted and abusive managers and ATF Attorneys, it is time for Everyone to take a deep breath. That's all I have to contribute for the moment. There will be more than enough time to weigh in. HOWEVER, they were not removed or encouraged to leave (however they choose to spin it) due to their stellar leadership or profound public service. We Advised and reported the mismanagement and abuses for 4 years. Maybe this time they will listen.

Apparently Dennis Burke has resigned, his deputy demoted to a "lesser post", and 3 out of 4 of our dear whistleblowers have been reassigned. I'm assuming these 3 wanted to move out of AZ and are not being given a punitive move. I hope they have not been punitively moved.

http://www.foxnews.c...furious-uproar/


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#18 The Original Ralph

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:47 AM

not sure how this jumped up above Sandy's post - mods, please delete if you have the time

#19 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:45 AM

Apparently Dennis Burke has resigned, his deputy demoted to a "lesser post", and 3 out of 4 of our dear whistleblowers have been reassigned. I'm assuming these 3 wanted to move out of AZ and are not being given a punitive move. I hope they have not been punitively moved.

http://www.foxnews.c...furious-uproar/

#20 The Original Ralph

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:39 AM

found this for a bio on him

http://www.justice.g...ao/mn/oped.html

don't see anything re his attitude or position on 2nd amendment

#21 Retired and loving it

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 11:23 AM

As per the following, Melson leaves at COB today. Too bad he isn't taking a host of others with him!!!!

Acting head of alcohol, tobacco and firearms taskforce is reassigned
By Chris Strohm National Journal August 30, 2011
The embattled head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is being replaced in the aftermath of a botched sting operation that allowed guns to knowingly fall into the hands of violent criminals in Mexico.

Kenneth Melson will be replaced as acting ATF director by U.S. Attorney for the District of Minnesota B. Todd Jones, the Justice Department announced Tuesday. Jones is expected to assume the new position on Aug. 31. Melson is being reassigned as a senior advisor on forensic science in the Office of Legal Policy, the department said.

Melson came under fire for a program called Operation Fast and Furious, which was ran out of the ATF Phoenix field office. The operation has been halted and is under investigation by lawmakers and the Justice Department?s inspector general for failing to stop guns from flowing into Mexico.

E-MAIL THIS ARTICLE PRINTER-FRIENDLY VERSION COMMENT ON THIS STORY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED STORIESGOP lawmakers accuse Justice of gunrunner coverup 07/06/11 Acting ATF director dismisses speculation he's quitting 06/22/11 ATF: Guns and New Year's don't mix 12/30/08 The Justice Department did not mention Operation Fast and Furious in announcing the changes.

A congressional investigation into the operation being led by House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Senate Judiciary ranking member Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is examining how high up within the administration the program was known about and authorized

#22 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 09:52 AM

been offline since hurricane irene came thru - looks like i missed a lot

the aspect about ruby ridge that does bear some commality with fast & furious is the dishonesty. ATF sent a memo to USMS to help motivate them into taking part in ruby ridge or to deploying there, by indicating in that memo that "a known suspect in a string of bank robberies up in the northeast, was residing at the weaver "compound" ". I forget who the visitor to randy weaver's that was staying there, but he was not a suspect in any crime or crimes.

At the congressional hearings, one of the panel members asked the ATF representative testifying, how that came to be stated in the memo. His response, laughably, was it was a "typo". The panel member corrected him, indicating, "no, transposing one or two characters is a typo, this is a whole paragraph fabricated from whole cloth".


Glad you're back Ralph, hope you had no damage.

Yep, that is what ATF calls a "typo". Let me tell you what they call a "clerical error". When the judge in my case cited ATF's "highest ranking officials" for perjury, conspiracy to cover up an illegal act, and reprisal, ATF filed their appeal late even after my attorney had reminded Michelle Davis King (NO relation) of the approaching date several times. They knew there was too much evidence for the decision to be overturned, so they simply filed the brief late. Then of course when their appeal was thrown out for technical reasons, they tried to negate the decision by calling it a "clerical error".

This thread is turning into quite the ATF management playbook and it sure becomes much easier to see through the BS when you have the book in front of you. Thanks Ralph, I've missed you.

#23 The Original Ralph

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 07:31 AM

Again, we are getting into the "crazy". Ruby Ridge? We bought sawed-off shotguns from Weaver. Simple case, not much jail time. Arrested him without incident. Weaver makes bail (only looking a probation) and goes into the mountains. Doesn't show up for court and writes the judge letters. USMS goes up into the mountains to scout out the area and everything goes horrible wrong. A Deputy Marshal gets killed, Weaver's young son gets killed. FBI HRT shows up and another tragedy occurs and Weaver's wife gets killed. ATF manned the road blocks.



This is the problem a lot of people have with this site. I agree we should stay on topic and concentrate on what is wrong with ATF. We do enough stupid stuff that we don't need to be blamed for crap we didn't do.


been offline since hurricane irene came thru - looks like i missed a lot

the aspect about ruby ridge that does bear some commonality with fast & furious is the dishonesty. ATF sent a memo to USMS to help motivate them into taking part in ruby ridge or to deploying there, by indicating in that memo that "a known suspect in a string of bank robberies up in the northeast, was residing at the weaver "compound" ". I forget who the visitor to randy weaver's that was staying there, but he was not a suspect in any crime or crimes.

At the congressional hearings, one of the panel members asked the ATF representative testifying, how that came to be stated in the memo. His response, laughably, was it was a "typo". The panel member corrected him, indicating, "no, transposing one or two characters is a typo, this is a whole paragraph fabricated from whole cloth".

#24 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 07:26 PM

Yes we had a Comm Center that was operating 24 hours. If you were an employee of ATF, you would know that. Ask any Agent working a high profile case back in the day -- there were two or three Agents that had to man the Comm Center at HQ. We use to have hotlines that came into the Comm Center and were answered 24 hours a day. And yes, Conroy was at the HQ Comm Center -- which wasn't a bad thing for the DADLE to be doing. He was fully aware of what was transpiring.

Also, some Agents did have cell phones at Waco. Investigators determined a least one citizen was monitoring cell phones and picked up a conversation of an Agent pertaining to raid preparation (either in route or the day before). Hense, we are now careful about cell phones, monitoring devices, etc.


Yep, back then you could get your 13 for spending a year at the Comm Center and it was typically manned by one person, not three. But it wasn't high tech constant monitoring. Hell, our radios barely worked. Encryption killed the range. Yes, a very few agents had cell phones, but the person monitoring the cell phones was a reporter, not a citizen. The AUSA wanted to charge him, but wasn't allowed. It is hard to tell who was where or heard what. Shoot, Royster did remember anything for several months. The point being it was this high tech center. It was a bare minimum operation. People need to remember the lack of technology we had back then. Not much.

#25 BeenThereDoneThat

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 07:11 PM

Guys,
Communication center? 1993? real-time moment by moment? Few people had cell phones. I am not defending management. You are just giving HQ too much credit. I don't disagree with your other points.

Yes we had a Comm Center that was operating 24 hours. If you were an employee of ATF, you would know that. Ask any Agent working a high profile case back in the day -- there were two or three Agents that had to man the Comm Center at HQ. We use to have hotlines that came into the Comm Center and were answered 24 hours a day. And yes, Conroy was at the HQ Comm Center -- which wasn't a bad thing for the DADLE to be doing. He was fully aware of what was transpiring.

Also, some Agents did have cell phones at Waco. Investigators determined a least one citizen was monitoring cell phones and picked up a conversation of an Agent pertaining to raid preparation (either in route or the day before). Hense, we are now careful about cell phones, monitoring devices, etc.

#26 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:56 PM

I beg to differ with you about HQ not knowing what was going on in Waco before/during/after the raid. The fact that there was no "Plan B"in the raid plan approved by HQ tells volumes. In fact, a couple of days after the raid, a "Plan B"was inserted to cover up the fact that HQ was going to do the raid no matter what.

Also, at the time the raid was going down, wasn't DADLE Conroy in the HQ Communication Center, listening to the real-time moment by moment? The raid did not occur in a vacuum.

This type of discussion is only relevant when you examine how ATF Senior Mgt handles situations that produce negative results or bad press. There is a scramble to modify/destroy evidence and to point the finger at a sacrifical lamb, i.e. Street Agent.

Hence, when questioned by Congress, you will not get a straight answer from Senior Mgt to 1) Who thought of this plan? 2) Who approved this plan? 3) How much money was spent on this plan and who has been involved with the approval of the funds?


Guys,
Communication center? 1993? real-time moment by moment? Few people had cell phones. I am not defending management. You are just giving HQ too much credit. I don't disagree with your other points.

#27 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:39 PM

Well here is something straight out of ATF's playbook of, "we need some good press to offset the bad, pronto" and I found it right here on CleanUp. I don't know who came up with this wonderful site, but I'd like to give them a big ole kiss.


Public Information Officers:

Please make every effort for the next two weeks to maximize coverage of ATF operations/enforcement actions/arrests at the local and regional level. Given the negative coverage by CBS Evening News last week and upcoming events this week, the bureau should look for every opportunity to push coverage of good stories. Fortunately, the CBS story has not sparked any follow up coverage by mainstream media and seems to have fizzled.

It was shoddy reporting , as CBS failed to air on-the-record interviews by former ATF officials and HQ statements for attribution that expressed opposing views and explained the law and difficulties of firearm trafficking investigations. The CBS producer for the story made only a feigned effort at the 11th hour to reach ATF HQ for comment.

This week (To 3/1/2011), Attorney General Holder testifies on the Hill and likely will get questions about the allegations in the story. Also (The 3/3/2011), Mexico President Calderon will visit the White House and likely will testify on the Hill. He will probably draw attention to the lack of political support for demand letter 3 and Project Gunrunner.

ATF needs to proactively push positive stories this week, in an effort to preempt some negative reporting, or at minimum, lessen the coverage of such stories in the news cycle by replacing them with good stories about ATF. The more time we spend highlighting the great work of the agents through press releases and various media outreaches in the coming days and weeks, the better off we will be.

Thanks for your cooperation in this matter. If you have any significant operations that should get national media coverage, please reach out to the Public Affairs Division for support, coordination and clearance.

Thank you,

Scot L. Thomasson
Chief ATF Public Affairs Division, Washington, DC

Desk 202-648-XXXX
Cell 206-XXX-XXXX

#28 avatar

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:03 PM

I would add "failing to think things through." There was apparently no Plan B for Waco, only the original "showtime" aspect that like a missile set to fire, will be fired by somebody. Sort of like once you get a bunch of soldiers together for a while, corral them up, sooner or later they're going to break something, but I'm a little tired of the dramatic example.

How about the order for FFLs to report the sales of multiple rifles that possess certain characteristics?

Look at it generically, and ask yourself some questions. Maybe some people at ATF with better knowledge of this will chime in; I hope so.

Consider first, that the House Committee on Appropriations, in a rider, has voted to withhold funds to implement this rule. The rider isn't Public Law, because the Senate has to vote on it. But consider the message and its source--the message is that the House Appropriators don't like it, and House Appropriations is a major player in (drum roll, pass the envelope) ATF's budget. Annoying the House Appropriators with something like a "party" to "celebrate" the reporting of sales of multiple rifles is just plain dumb, because there's no obvious reason to do it other than to get brownie points with the Obama Administration and other Executive Branch types. Are any of them running to ATF's rescue at the moment? Are they likely to do so?

Consider more fundamentally, and don't just take my word for this, ATF management's apparent failure to think through how this reporting requirement is going to be implemented. Didn't Acting ATF Director Melson say that ATF needs to lose at least 400 employees during Fiscal Year 2012? In light of that, where are the ATF personnel cuts going to come from, and who at ATF is left to do the reporting requirement work? Would these be contract employees? ATF Special Agents yanked off the street to do this sort of paperwork? Are there enough ATF clerks to do this? Or are the IOIs going to be tasked with this? How many forms (pieces of paper) are we talking about? How will the data be culled/extracted, organized and indexed?

I just said not to take just my word for this. I respectfully suggest you folks reach out to your colleagues at the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) component at DHS, and ask some of the old hands there how it worked for them (and the former Immigration and Naturalization Service, the INS), when the Congress enacted the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. The 1986 Act required INS to establish field office presence and process, ultimately, literally MILLIONS of applications for amnesty. It is not that well known outside the Government, but the 1986 amnesty program is largely pointed to as a major reason that INS was abolished ("abolished" is the word in the legislation), because INS ultimately couldn't handle the morass of paperwork that was engendered.

I have no idea how many pieces of paper the reporting requirement would create, but standing at a distance --- I don't see how ATF could possibly handle all that paperwork IN A TIMELY WAY for, presumably, close to real-time intelligence to catch bad actors, and not have it affect other ATF operations. I am not suggesting that people who legally purchase firearms and then illegally traffick them should not be identified and prosecuted; nobody would; but is this the most efficient way to get that done?

This is kind of a long answer to some of the questions that Sandy is raising, but I think it makes the point in perhaps a less dramatic way than Waco, Ruby Ridge and other spectacular events. I intend this answer/perspective as one from a long-term federal bureaucrat who has worked a LOT with forms, statistics, and the foibles of data processing and computerized data. It is tedious work that must be done accurately, and doing garbage-in/garbage-out isn't gonna cut it, with all the eyes that are likely to be on this program should ATF proceed. Has ATF figured out who at ATF would be doing this work, the actual work of receiving paper, processing it, and delivering a product, following quality control procedures?

I'd be most interested in any comments on this from folks at ATF who may have a better understanding of this situation.

#29 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 09:55 AM

few people are left in ATF that were there and know what really went on.


But we still have all the congressional testimony.

My question is, how would the honest agents and supervisors on the ground know who directed what? It's not like anyone has ever gotten a truth out of "those people" about anything, much something as serious as risking lives to grab some limelight. I still can not help but feel like if there's even a chance of that being the case, it needs to be looked at and remembered.

What "BeenThere" just said about HQ knowing AND following the planning and execution of the raid is what I have always heard and have verified by a very reliable source. Plus, I can not imagine that the biggest planned raid in the agency at the time would not have had the Dan's scurrying all over it.

If they were motivated by money to hurry up with the raid instead of pulling back as you think is a real possibility (and makes a lot of sense), why wouldn't they also be motivated by hoping for some great press coverage which they desperately needed at the time to offset all the bad that they had just started receiving and that they were FURIOUS about? Steve Higgins had just been humiliated by Mike Wallace chasing him down a hallway and I know for a fact that prompted him and his buddies, Dan and Dan, into a campaign to destroy everyone involved in the resulting show. That campaign cost the tax payer dearly. Robert Sanders testified (Waco hearings Day 2 Part 1) that all the bad press was making Higgins and the Dans look like "fools", which is quite the understatement. He went on to testify that after the failed raid, agents who were there, told him they felt rushed into the raid and they felt the media's presence was a likely reason.

I am waiting to hear from an FFL who has studied Waco in depth and who is familiar enough with the 8 days of hearings to be able to recite and reference them. I'll post anything I find out then, and will hopefully have the testimony referenced to easily be able to check. Although the hearings can be watched by anyone with a computer, there are long and boring for the most part.

#30 BeenThereDoneThat

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 06:52 AM

Let me clear this point up once and for all. One of the requirements to main treasury for the search warrant to go forward was the element of surprise. The SACs and ASACs on the ground in Waco never informed HQ that they had lost the element of surprise. They thought they could still do the warrant. Did the amount of money already spent cross their mind? Probably. Most likely the biggest factor was no one had ever fired on law enforcement like that before. HQ got involved afterwards with the lie that we hadn't lost the element of surprise. This was not a media thing. It was two days after the first World Trade Center bombing. It was believed that no national attention would be given to this warrant. They were probably right. If the warrant had gone as planned, no one would have noticed. They didn't send a media team out. It was just PIO Sharon Wheeler for the Dallas Field DIvision.

The real comparison here is what has happened afterwards. Getting in front of your mistakes and taking responsibility for your actions. They don't even teach WACO at the academy anymore and few people are left in ATF that were there and know what really went on.

I beg to differ with you about HQ not knowing what was going on in Waco before/during/after the raid. The fact that there was no "Plan B"in the raid plan approved by HQ tells volumes. In fact, a couple of days after the raid, a "Plan B"was inserted to cover up the fact that HQ was going to do the raid no matter what.

Also, at the time the raid was going down, wasn't DADLE Conroy in the HQ Communication Center, listening to the real-time moment by moment? The raid did not occur in a vacuum.

This type of discussion is only relevant when you examine how ATF Senior Mgt handles situations that produce negative results or bad press. There is a scramble to modify/destroy evidence and to point the finger at a sacrifical lamb, i.e. Street Agent.

Hence, when questioned by Congress, you will not get a straight answer from Senior Mgt to 1) Who thought of this plan? 2) Who approved this plan? 3) How much money was spent on this plan and who has been involved with the approval of the funds?

#31 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:06 AM

Zorro, I think there's another possibility; if HQ actually did have something to do with the push to hurry up and go on with the raid to make a big media splash in spite of having lost the element of surprise, and that is simple denial on the part of many agents. What agent wants to believe that four agents and many innocent children were killed because of this? It's almost too horrific to even contemplate.


Let me clear this point up once and for all. One of the requirements to main treasury for the search warrant to go forward was the element of surprise. The SACs and ASACs on the ground in Waco never informed HQ that they had lost the element of surprise. They thought they could still do the warrant. Did the amount of money already spent cross their mind? Probably. Most likely the biggest factor was no one had ever fired on law enforcement like that before. HQ got involved afterwards with the lie that we hadn't lost the element of surprise. This was not a media thing. It was two days after the first World Trade Center bombing. It was believed that no national attention would be given to this warrant. They were probably right. If the warrant had gone as planned, no one would have noticed. They didn't send a media team out. It was just PIO Sharon Wheeler for the Dallas Field DIvision.

The real comparison here is what has happened afterwards. Getting in front of your mistakes and taking responsibility for your actions. They don't even teach WACO at the academy anymore and few people are left in ATF that were there and know what really went on.

#32 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:31 PM

Truth,

Crazy? I used to say Waco was overblown hype. It wasn't until I came to work for ATF and talked to agents who were around that I saw it differently. Granted, it was way before my time and these people I see as good agents could very well have lied to me for whatever reason - I would know no better, but it's my opinion that it would be out of charatcer for them to do so. Who do I believe: senior managers or line agents? Based on my personal observations I will default to the line agents with the understanding that it's possible they are dishonest or have an axe to grind.


Zorro, I think there's another possibility; if HQ actually did have something to do with the push to hurry up and go on with the raid to make a big media splash in spite of having lost the element of surprise, and that is simple denial on the part of many agents. What agent wants to believe that four agents and many innocent children were killed because of this? It's almost too horrific to even contemplate.

#33 Zorro

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:03 PM

Truth,

Crazy? I used to say Waco was overblown hype. It wasn't until I came to work for ATF and talked to agents who were around that I saw it differently. Granted, it was way before my time and these people I see as good agents could very well have lied to me for whatever reason - I would know no better, but it's my opinion that it would be out of charatcer for them to do so. Who do I believe: senior managers or line agents? Based on my personal observations I will default to the line agents with the understanding that it's possible they are dishonest or have an axe to grind.
The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.

#34 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:53 PM

Sorry Truth, I read your post as if you were implying that Weaver refused to show up for court, which would have been very misleading. I can see now that you were merely saying because he wasn't in court, an arrest warrant was issued. Again sorry - internet miscommunication and I admittedly take an occasional pharmaceutical when I deal with anything that is ATF related. :blink:

Who is Roosenhoover? And since he's already marked, do you think he would post on here? I would sincerely like to hear from someone who had first-hand knowledge of Waco events who could defend your theory, which I know is held by many of the agents who were there. This is actually the theory that I would prefer to believe, and if true, I think it is important to have out there for the public to have access to. Sadly, much of the public does judge the agents in light of the corruption at the top.


Sandy,
You sure do have that right. And like most things, you are judge by your mistakes, not your successes. We truly have some of the best agents in all federal law enforcement. Underfunded, understaffed and lacking leadership. Still, ATF agents put more people in prison per agent than any other federal agency. Risenhoover is listed in the directory. Good luck.

#35 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:08 PM

Sandy,
Again, I don't see where I am not quoting fact. DOJ OIG REPORT Page 2, Section B - B. Significant Findings



Sorry Truth, I read your post as if you were implying that Weaver refused to show up for court, which would have been very misleading. I can see now that you were merely saying because he wasn't in court, an arrest warrant was issued. Again sorry - internet miscommunication and I admittedly take an occasional pharmaceutical when I deal with anything that is ATF related. :blink:

Who is Roosenhoover? And since he's already marked, do you think he would post on here? I would sincerely like to hear from someone who had first-hand knowledge of Waco events who could defend your theory, which I know is held by many of the agents who were there. This is actually the theory that I would prefer to believe, and if true, I think it is important to have out there for the public to have access to. Sadly, much of the public does judge the agents in light of the corruption at the top.

#36 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 02:54 PM

It's not that simple Truth. Here's the official Justice Dept Report: http://www.justice.g...ortcover_39.pdf . You don't have to read any further than the first page to see why Weaver didn't show up to court. Many in the public have read this report and know what's in it. If we on this site misrepresent the facts, which you just did, the public will start to see the agents as indistinguishable from HQ. When that happens, ATF will not survive and we will have let all the good in this agency be destroyed by a few at the top and our own ignorance. And to add insult to injury the Randy Weavers will be seen as the victims.

I think ATF agents have a responsibility to know the facts of our history before they hostilely comment on them. And defending mistakes out of ignorance, while at the same time writing off anyone who dares mention these mistakes as a nut, makes us look just like the managers we are all so repulsed by . I do not want to see the best agents in the world thrown out with the bath water and left to follow some FBI agent around all day as a flunky. Alienate the public through ignorance of facts while at the same time calling them crazy makes that nightmare scenario all the more likely. And believe me, the public is reading this site.

No one in the non-criminal public has more contact with ATF than the FFLs, who have apparently been horribly victimized themselves. Many FFLs are business leaders in our communities and they tend to be extremely savvy about ATF's history. They are also all over this site. Do we really want them going out into the community and telling people that the agents aren't any better than the liars running the agency?

'Those who do not know their history are destined to repeat it' comes to mind, except that in ATF's case, the agency may not be left standing to repeat anything.


Sandy,
Again, I don't see where I am not quoting fact. DOJ OIG REPORT Page 2, Section B - B. Significant Findings

In October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF

informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as

an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver

refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government

indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no

evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because

of his religious or political beliefs. Similarly, we found

insufficient evidence to sustain the charge that Weaver was

illegally entrapped into selling the weapons.

When Weaver was arraigned on the weapons charges in January

1991, he was told that his trial would commence on February 19,

1991. Two weeks later, the court clerk notified the parties that

the trial date had been changed to February 20, 1991. Shortly

thereafter, the U.S. Probation Office sent Weaver a letter which

incorrectly referenced his trial date as March 20, 1991. After

Weaver failed to appear for trial on February 20, the court

issued a bench warrant for his arrest. Three weeks later, on

March 14, a federal grand jury indicted Weaver for his failure to

appear for trial. We found that: the government, especially the

USAO, was unnecessarily rigid in its approach to the issues

created by the erroneous letter; that the USAO improvidently

sought an indictment before March 20, 1991; and that the USAO

erred in failing to inform the grand jury of the erroneous

letter.

I am not defending ATF out of ignorance. We have done plenty of stupid stuff without being accused of doing thing we didn't do. Ruby Ridge was a tragedy. I would have been amazed if Weaver had been convicted for the ATF charges after losing a son and wife. I think we all can say there is no crime in the world to justify what happened on that mountain. ATF was manning the road blocks. Let's stick with facts. Call Risenhoover if you have questions about Waco. HQ has already said he is a marked for complaining about the money wasted on NIBIN.

#37 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 02:36 PM

Again, we are getting into the "crazy". Ruby Ridge? We bought sawed-off shotguns from Weaver. Simple case, not much jail time. Arrested him without incident. Weaver makes bail (only looking a probation) and goes into the mountains. Doesn't show up for court and writes the judge letters. USMS goes up into the mountains to scout out the area and everything goes horrible wrong. A Deputy Marshal gets killed, Weaver's young son gets killed. FBI HRT shows up and another tragedy occurs and Weaver's wife gets killed. ATF manned the road blocks.



This is the problem a lot of people have with this site. I agree we should stay on topic and concentrate on what is wrong with ATF. We do enough stupid stuff that we don't need to be blamed for crap we didn't do.




It's not that simple Truth. Here's the official Justice Dept Report: http://www.justice.g...ortcover_39.pdf . You don't have to read any further than the first page to see why Weaver didn't show up to court. Many in the public have read this report and know what's in it. If we on this site misrepresent the facts, which you just did, the public will start to see the agents as indistinguishable from HQ. When that happens, ATF will not survive and we will have let all the good in this agency be destroyed by a few at the top and our own ignorance. And to add insult to injury the Randy Weavers will be seen as the victims.

I think ATF agents have a responsibility to know the facts of our history before they hostilely comment on them. And defending mistakes out of ignorance, while at the same time writing off anyone who dares mention these mistakes as a nut, makes us look just like the managers we are all so repulsed by . I do not want to see the best agents in the world thrown out with the bath water and left to follow some FBI agent around all day as a flunky. Alienate the public through ignorance of facts while at the same time calling them crazy makes that nightmare scenario all the more likely. And believe me, the public is reading this site.

No one in the non-criminal public has more contact with ATF than the FFLs, who have apparently been horribly victimized themselves. Many FFLs are business leaders in our communities and they tend to be extremely savvy about ATF's history. They are also all over this site. Do we really want them going out into the community and telling people that the agents aren't any better than the liars running the agency?

'Those who do not know their history are destined to repeat it' comes to mind, except that in ATF's case, the agency may not be left standing to repeat anything.

#38 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:51 AM

I have to agree with SD - entrenched behavior like we are witnessing does not materialize overnight. IMO, it has been a culmination of no accountability for years, even decades. Lack of consequences for Ruby/Waco and any number of lesser known scandals likely created the breeding ground that brought about F&F.

In a previous post, I falsely attributed the recently exhibited brash actions to "guts" but upon further reflection I believe it comes from operating in a vacuum so long that any sense of right and wrong has dissipated (if it ever existed). These people don't understand that their behavior is unacceptable to professional co-workers, taxpayers, and congress any more than a child understands a stove is hot before being burned.


Again, we are getting into the "crazy". Ruby Ridge? We bought sawed-off shotguns from Weaver. Simple case, not much jail time. Arrested him without incident. Weaver makes bail (only looking a probation) and goes into the mountains. Doesn't show up for court and writes the judge letters. USMS goes up into the mountains to scout out the area and everything goes horrible wrong. A Deputy Marshal gets killed, Weaver's young son gets killed. FBI HRT shows up and another tragedy occurs and Weaver's wife gets killed. ATF manned the road blocks.



This is the problem a lot of people have with this site. I agree we should stay on topic and concentrate on what is wrong with ATF. We do enough stupid stuff that we don't need to be blamed for crap we didn't do.

#39 Zorro

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 04:49 PM

I have to agree with SD - entrenched behavior like we are witnessing does not materialize overnight. IMO, it has been a culmination of no accountability for years, even decades. Lack of consequences for Ruby/Waco and any number of lesser known scandals likely created the breeding ground that brought about F&F.

In a previous post, I falsely attributed the recently exhibited brash actions to "guts" but upon further reflection I believe it comes from operating in a vacuum so long that any sense of right and wrong has dissipated (if it ever existed). These people don't understand that their behavior is unacceptable to professional co-workers, taxpayers, and congress any more than a child understands a stove is hot before being burned.
The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.

#40 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 12:09 PM

Lady's and Gents, let me first point out that the SOLE purpose of this website is to RESPECTFULLY interact for the collective cause of holding our corrupt and unethical managers and practices to task and restore ATF to greatness. A personal one-on-one email system is in place right here on CUATF to engage in debate. I think we can ALL agree that inept management and lack of integrity played a huge part in the ultimate outcome of the Waco raid. I think we can all agree that notwithstanding the failures of management and the lack of acceptance of responsibility, that OUR ATF AGENTS performed their duties as they have throughout history with great honor and courage, and 4 paid the ultimate price. May they RIP and NEVER FORGET. I will ask that this conversation refocus on TODAYS ATF and the abysmal state of affairs threatening the future of ATF and our mandate to keep the American people safe. It is never the action or crime that is so terrible, it is always the coverup. ARE YOU LISTENING ERIC HOLDER, KEN MELSON, MARK CHAIT, BILLY HOOVER, BILL MCMAHON, BILL NEWELL AND GEORGE GILLETTE? Your peers have spoken, it is time for you to go.


Doc, I agree that private emails would be a better place to exchange insults, but I respectfully disagree that it is also the place for this debate and that CleanUp should be solely focused on ATF’s latest disaster. After watching ATF operate for over 20 years, it is clear to me that what is happening now surrounding F&F is a continuing pattern of behavior and that there are common denominators that we can all agree on, i.e., how management always runs in lying, retaliating, and and covering up when they make a mistake or get caught intentionally breaking the law. I think it is a huge mistake to look at today’s ATF as the exception because it simply isn’t, it’s the rule. It’s always been the rule. There are people out there who have been yelling about ATF’s pattern of behavior like Robert Sanders and Kay Kubicki for a lot longer than I have. Ironically, I found several old copies of “The Agent” recently and as I read through them, it reminded me just how long people have been fighting the corruption in this agency. And unfortunately as time goes on, their stories get lost, twisted, and/or simply forgotten.

I read part of Jay’s complaint and I was not surprised to see many of the same people who are now scurrying around the F&F investigation listed there. I think that just looking at the folks who are involved in the F&F fiasco without looking at their past behaviors is akin to focusing on F&F and ignoring ATF’s history of like behavior. I think it is that pattern of behavior that is indicative of just how much systemic change needs to occur. While I want to see those currently involved in F&F held accountable, it would be a shallow victory indeed if the underlying issues are not resolved and we have another disaster like it in a few years. It’s your decision obviously, but I for one hope you will reconsider.

#41 Doc Holiday

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:52 AM

Lady's and Gents, let me first point out that the SOLE purpose of this website is to RESPECTFULLY interact for the collective cause of holding our corrupt and unethical managers and practices to task and restore ATF to greatness. A personal one-on-one email system is in place right here on CUATF to engage in debate. I think we can ALL agree that inept management and lack of integrity played a huge part in the ultimate outcome of the Waco raid. I think we can all agree that notwithstanding the failures of management and the lack of acceptance of responsibility, that OUR ATF AGENTS performed their duties as they have throughout history with great honor and courage, and 4 paid the ultimate price. May they RIP and NEVER FORGET. I will ask that this conversation refocus on TODAYS ATF and the abysmal state of affairs threatening the future of ATF and our mandate to keep the American people safe. It is never the action or crime that is so terrible, it is always the coverup. ARE YOU LISTENING ERIC HOLDER, KEN MELSON, MARK CHAIT, BILLY HOOVER, BILL MCMAHON, BILL NEWELL AND GEORGE GILLETTE? Your peers have spoken, it is time for you to go.

naw, no conspiracy theories here, and don't have any unicorn hunting friends. I am a little surprised at the intricate level of knowledge you represent to possess on the waco affair, even knowing what media was where, when and why - got to wonder exactly who you really are and your purpose here.

Couple that with your board name which has always struck me as a little odd. Most folks just took an anonymous handle or used their own real names. When you joined, did you assume the majority of the board members, who are ATF agents / employees, weren't "truth tellers" or that they just needed someone that would lead them to your truth. That handle may be a little too revealing.

Good luck on your finding a choir to preach to, just don't wait for me to join that choir



#42 The Original Ralph

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 04:46 PM

Actually Ralph, I am just sick of the crap that comes out of conspiracy nuts. You might want to get back to working with Charlie Sheen on your 9/11 conspiracies. You make up crap and try and say it is fact. Good luck to you and your Unicorn hunting friends.



naw, no conspiracy theories here, and don't have any unicorn hunting friends. I am a little surprised at the intricate level of knowledge you represent to possess on the waco affair, even knowing what media was where, when and why - got to wonder exactly who you really are and your purpose here.

Couple that with your board name which has always struck me as a little odd. Most folks just took an anonymous handle or used their own real names. When you joined, did you assume the majority of the board members, who are ATF agents / employees, weren't "truth tellers" or that they just needed someone that would lead them to your truth. That handle may be a little too revealing.

Good luck on your finding a choir to preach to, just don't wait for me to join that choir

#43 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 03:20 PM

ATF"truth"teller
actually, i didn't quote sof - i quoted the ATF employees organization newsletter that SOF POSTED IMAGES OF THE VERY PAGES OF THE COMMENTS and suggested you go review (or even go to the original source if it's still around) and see for yourself

sof ain't no better or worse than any other print media - and i think that was why they simply printed the images or scans of The Lion newsletter (assuming that was the correct newsletter title)

obviously, your goal isn't concerned with the actual facts


Actually Ralph, I am just sick of the crap that comes out of conspiracy nuts. You might want to get back to working with Charlie Sheen on your 9/11 conspiracies. You make up crap and try and say it is fact. Good luck to you and your Unicorn hunting friends.

#44 The Original Ralph

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 01:30 PM

Ralph,
For someone who quotes SOF, you truly are full of shit. Try and get past the fact the media was successfully sued. Did you ever hear about that?


ATF"truth"teller
actually, i didn't quote sof - i quoted the ATF employees organization newsletter that SOF POSTED IMAGES OF THE VERY PAGES OF THE COMMENTS and suggested you go review (or even go to the original source if it's still around) and see for yourself

sof ain't no better or worse than any other print media - and i think that was why they simply printed the images or scans of The Lion newsletter (assuming that was the correct newsletter title)

obviously, your goal isn't concerned with the actual facts

#45 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 01:03 PM

Truth, come on, throwing insults at Ralph instead of showing us where he is wrong simply isn't helpful. Please tell us where he is wrong. In all fairness, you did post quite a bit of "shit" yourself about cases you knew nothing about, yet stated your words as if you were stating facts. Then I was accused of "pissing on the graves" of our fallen agents and Michelle Roberts was slandered in your post with the very lies that Hartnett and Higgins spoon fed to you 15 years ago.

Ralph is posting what very much appears to be facts based on the interviews and testimony after Waco. You have been insufferably insulting and still you have not presented any facts.

While I admire your passion and loyalty to our fallen agents, how would getting the facts out on the table, regardless of what they are, be disrespectful to these four men?

And as far as me getting a "raw deal" - now there's a euphemism for you. There is still a man today who was within 5 years of retirement who got fired for testifying for me. It's been 20 years and it still takes my breath away when I think of what he went through and how it changed the course of his life and that of his daughters. I witnessed the pain Michelle Roberts went through as she had her reputation ripped apart across this agency that she loved. I have watched agents almost lose their minds from the stress of the battle as their spouses left them in financial ruin, their fellow agents turned against them, and their attorneys drop the ball in their cases ensuring that in the end, they never did get any vindication.

Truth, I believe your heart is on the right place. It's the location of your head that seems to be the problem.


He is quoting fact that isn't fact. I listened to your argument and thanked you for it. You were there and I didn't dispute your point. I thank you for letting me know the truth about what happened almost twenty years ago. What I can't tolerate is some "expert" who wasn't even there. The reason the supervisors on site lied was one of the requirements to go forward with the raid was the element of surprise. He is quoting things that never happened. He is making up stuff and acting like it is fact. Here is a little piece of fact. I knew the Sheriff and spoke with him personally. I tried to give you a piece of fact and had some nut job start quoting crazy. I work for ATF. I am all full up on crazy.

#46 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:49 PM

Ralph,
For someone who quotes SOF, you truly are full of shit. Try and get past the fact the media was successfully sued. Did you ever hear about that?


Truth, come on, throwing insults at Ralph instead of showing us where he is wrong simply isn't helpful. Please tell us where he is wrong. In all fairness, you did post quite a bit of "shit" yourself about cases you knew nothing about, yet stated your words as if you were stating facts. Then I was accused of "pissing on the graves" of our fallen agents and Michelle Roberts was slandered in your post with the very lies that Hartnett and Higgins spoon fed to you 15 years ago.

Ralph is posting what very much appears to be facts based on the interviews and testimony after Waco. You have been insufferably insulting and still you have not presented any facts.

While I admire your passion and loyalty to our fallen agents, how would getting the facts out on the table, regardless of what they are, be disrespectful to these four men?

And as far as me getting a "raw deal" - now there's a euphemism for you. There is still a man today who was within 5 years of retirement who got fired for testifying for me. It's been 20 years and it still takes my breath away when I think of what he went through and how it changed the course of his life and that of his daughters. I witnessed the pain Michelle Roberts went through as she had her reputation ripped apart across this agency that she loved. I have watched agents almost lose their minds from the stress of the battle as their spouses left them in financial ruin, their fellow agents turned against them, and their attorneys drop the ball in their cases ensuring that in the end, they never did get any vindication.

Truth, I believe your heart is on the right place. It's the location of your head that seems to be the problem.

#47 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 11:39 AM

I wasn't going to respond to your posts but after slamming the media as reliable sources (and i'll agree that the media generally mis-state, mis-quote interviewees for the sake of sensationalizing - hell, i was mis-quoted one time so badly, i vowed never to be interviewed again). But to portray the media in a manner to suggest they never report factually is as bad as what you accuse them of. Then you go on to state "I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing" as if when you use 2nd hand sources, they're legitimate

the information i have is from the C-span recorded testimony at congressional hearings, a TV interview of the sheriff of waco, and lastly from a contact that was called in by both ATF and the FBI that wanted him to provide "independent expert testimony" for them at the congressional hearings. After he reviewed all their evidence, i won't repeat what he said to both agencies (it'd be too inflamatory) but suffice it that he refused to testify on either agencies' behalf. As far as the congressional hearings, they're in the C-span archives online - view them for yourself

a) the sheriff of waco, in that interview stated unequivocably that the actions at Waco amounted to murder, plain & simple. He went on to state that if ATF really believed the davidians had machineguns, why did they send their agents out there in cattle trucks and pull up right in front of the main building???? and that was confirmed in a video tape displayed in the congressional hearings. There was also the audio tape of david koresh calling into the sheriff's office at the very beginning of the raid, just after ATF started shooting at koresh when he stuck his head out the front door, asking for help, asking why they were being fired on, and asking the sheriff to tell the agents that there were children inside. The tone of excitement in his voice told me he wasn't acting - there was real fear and terror in his voice, and it sure gave credibility to the assertions that ATF fired first at Waco. The sheriff actually had tears in his eyes when he was interviewed but you could see the anger behind them. That interview is burnt into my memory.

B) the sheriff also stated "if ATF wanted to talk to Koresh, or take him in" all they had to do was have him (the sheriff) call koresh in. In the past, whenever there'd be a problem, he'd called david koresh and asked him to come down to the sheriff's office and he would. Or they could have picked him up when he jogged, regularly, early AM - that was from the sheriff's mouth - so don't tell me the sheriff knew less than ATF about koresh's habits.

,
I could go on and on - and you will still push your own set of "facts". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but there's only one set of true facts

There was a publication entitled "THE LION" (don't recall the full title) but apparently a monthly newsletter published by an private organization for ATF personnel. Find the issues from the months after WACO and read the letters written in by retired ATF agents regarding what took place at Waco. Bob Brown, of SOF, published a number of them in his magazine. Not requotes, but actual images of the articles in their original print form.

that's all i am going to say on this subject - the last time you and i got into it, my blood pressure stayed too high for too long. Just recalling Waco raises my BP.

You can defend atf's action at waco all you want, but waco was one of the most disgraceful acts by my gov't that i'm aware of, both on ATF's part and the FBI's. Stating that the negative image of ATF at Waco was only a result of the lies ATF told afterwards is like saying a pig didn't sell for a silk purse cause ATF put the wrong shade of lipstick on it -

Question (rhetorical) : why would ATF need to lie about Waco afterwards, if it was justifiable and they action honorable?

PS - not sure how that icon of a frowning yellow sun with sunglasses got in there - can't seem to remove it -



Ralph,
For someone who quotes SOF, you truly are full of shit. Try and get past the fact the media was successfully sued. Did you ever hear about that?

#48 The Original Ralph

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:18 AM

Story goes a lot deeper than that. When ATF started their investigation they quickly discovered that the ex-cult members they were interviewing were also being interviewed by the Waco Tribune Herald. The paper was writing a series on the cult and just how dangerous they were. These ex-cult members informed the paper that ATF was also investigating the group. Finally, a meeting was scheduled with the paper. ATF SACs were there and it was thought that the paper and ATF were in agreement. WRONG. The paper intended to publish their series before the raid, so it would look like their story is what lead to federal action. I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing. So, when ATF made arrangements with the ambulance service, the dispatcher was immediately relaying all information to her boyfriend at the TV station, who was best friends with the guy writing the story for the paper. Every time ATF made a change and let the ambulance service know, all the media was immediately informed. That is why the ambulance service destroyed all their telephone recordings. The paper started their series on a saturday, the worst day of the week for a paper, instead of Sunday. ATF was ignorant to think they could trust the paper. The media was not invited out there that day. This is why the media was sued and lost. The compromise with the Davidians was caused by a lost TV camera man who told a rural postal carrier that the ATF and the national guard were coming and there was coming to be a big shootout. Problem was, the rural postal carrier was the number 2 man in the Davidian compound. After this meeting, the TV camera man left the area and went and hid at his house for the next few days. No one knew what had happened to him. Most of this came out when the defense attorneys went into the compound, but was never reported by the media.


I wasn't going to respond to your posts but after slamming the media as reliable sources (and i'll agree that the media generally mis-state, mis-quote interviewees for the sake of sensationalizing - hell, i was mis-quoted one time so badly, i vowed never to be interviewed again). But to portray the media in a manner to suggest they never report factually is as bad as what you accuse them of. Then you go on to state "I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing" as if when you use 2nd hand sources, they're legitimate

the information i have is from the C-span recorded testimony at congressional hearings, a TV interview of the sheriff of waco, and lastly from a contact that was called in by both ATF and the FBI that wanted him to provide "independent expert testimony" for them at the congressional hearings. After he reviewed all their evidence, i won't repeat what he said to both agencies (it'd be too inflamatory) but suffice it that he refused to testify on either agencies' behalf. As far as the congressional hearings, they're in the C-span archives online - view them for yourself

a) the sheriff of waco, in that interview stated unequivocably that the actions at Waco amounted to murder, plain & simple. He went on to state that if ATF really believed the davidians had machineguns, why did they send their agents out there in cattle trucks and pull up right in front of the main building???? and that was confirmed in a video tape displayed in the congressional hearings. There was also the audio tape of david koresh calling into the sheriff's office at the very beginning of the raid, just after ATF started shooting at koresh when he stuck his head out the front door, asking for help, asking why they were being fired on, and asking the sheriff to tell the agents that there were children inside. The tone of excitement in his voice told me he wasn't acting - there was real fear and terror in his voice, and it sure gave credibility to the assertions that ATF fired first at Waco. The sheriff actually had tears in his eyes when he was interviewed but you could see the anger behind them. That interview is burnt into my memory.

B) the sheriff also stated "if ATF wanted to talk to Koresh, or take him in" all they had to do was have him (the sheriff) call koresh in. In the past, whenever there'd be a problem, he'd called david koresh and asked him to come down to the sheriff's office and he would. Or they could have picked him up when he jogged, regularly, early AM - that was from the sheriff's mouth - so don't tell me the sheriff knew less than ATF about koresh's habits.

,
I could go on and on - and you will still push your own set of "facts". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but there's only one set of true facts

There was a publication entitled "THE LION" (don't recall the full title) but apparently a monthly newsletter published by an private organization for ATF personnel. Find the issues from the months after WACO and read the letters written in by retired ATF agents regarding what took place at Waco. Bob Brown, of SOF, published a number of them in his magazine. Not requotes, but actual images of the articles in their original print form.

that's all i am going to say on this subject - the last time you and i got into it, my blood pressure stayed too high for too long. Just recalling Waco raises my BP.

You can defend atf's action at waco all you want, but waco was one of the most disgraceful acts by my gov't that i'm aware of, both on ATF's part and the FBI's. Stating that the negative image of ATF at Waco was only a result of the lies ATF told afterwards is like saying a pig didn't sell for a silk purse cause ATF put the wrong shade of lipstick on it -

Question (rhetorical) : why would ATF need to lie about Waco afterwards, if it was justifiable and they action honorable?

PS - not sure how that icon of a frowning yellow sun with sunglasses got in there - can't seem to remove it -

#49 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 06:20 AM

Didn't Wheeler finally admit under oath that she did indeed give a reporter a 'heads-up' after first claiming that she had only gotten contact numbers (per the blue book report or congressional testimony)? My theory is that Hartnett looked around for a big ATF case to offset the bad press that he knew was about to hit. I believe that was the reason that the raid wasn't called off when the element of surprise was lost. Because no one wanted to tell that vile little man he had no clothes on. I'm not throwing wild accusations around about Hartnett. This was exactly how he operated during his tenure at ATF.

I can see Hartnett getting so caught up in his own nasty little games, that he would not stop to think about the lives of his agents before making major decisions. He made a career out of viciously going after agents. It's who he was. It's his motivation concerning the orders that came down after the element of surprise was lost I'm bringing into question. And I also suspect he knew and approved of a reporter being there. My question has alway been why was there such a big rush to charge into the compound? Those people weren't going anywhere. ATF had already lost the element of surprise. Other than ATF leaders wanting a big media splash, what was the rush? I think the critical question is did ATF leaders want the reporter there prior to the raid? And why were there so many lies told? What were they covering up? If they just made a mistake in judgement, why all the lies? I'm sorry, call me jaded, but every time I've seen ATF HQ lying, they were covering-up.

I would like to find out if Wheeler admitted giving the reporter a heads-up. I'll try to find Wheeler's testimony or my copy of the blue book.

Is there anything else about this article's documentation that you feel is bs?


Story goes a lot deeper than that. When ATF started their investigation they quickly discovered that the ex-cult members they were interviewing were also being interviewed by the Waco Tribune Herald. The paper was writing a series on the cult and just how dangerous they were. These ex-cult members informed the paper that ATF was also investigating the group. Finally, a meeting was scheduled with the paper. ATF SACs were there and it was thought that the paper and ATF were in agreement. WRONG. The paper intended to publish their series before the raid, so it would look like their story is what lead to federal action. I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing. So, when ATF made arrangements with the ambulance service, the dispatcher was immediately relaying all information to her boyfriend at the TV station, who was best friends with the guy writing the story for the paper. Every time ATF made a change and let the ambulance service know, all the media was immediately informed. That is why the ambulance service destroyed all their telephone recordings. The paper started their series on a saturday, the worst day of the week for a paper, instead of Sunday. ATF was ignorant to think they could trust the paper. The media was not invited out there that day. This is why the media was sued and lost. The compromise with the Davidians was caused by a lost TV camera man who told a rural postal carrier that the ATF and the national guard were coming and there was coming to be a big shootout. Problem was, the rural postal carrier was the number 2 man in the Davidian compound. After this meeting, the TV camera man left the area and went and hid at his house for the next few days. No one knew what had happened to him. Most of this came out when the defense attorneys went into the compound, but was never reported by the media.

#50 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:14 AM

I'm sorry I upset you and I know these wounds run deep, however, in my mind if critical decisions were made by ATF leaders that in some way led to the death of those four agents, I would not be "pissing on their graves", but trying to ensure it doesn't happen again by exposing what I believe to be a pattern of behavior on the part of ATF HQ. I understand how the media spins things, so please point out specifically where this article is wrong. I sincerely want to know. I also want others to know the truth whatever that may be. Again, I am not questioning the investigation itself, but the reasons for some of the decisions made by ATF leaders. If you'll read the article, it is not about the investigation itself, but the connection of the media and decisions that were made................

Thank you for your reply. Your description of what happened to you and those agents isn't surprising and the kind of information we need to get out to the public. I always said Higgins and Harnett should have been criminally prosecuted for Waco and now I know they were doing the same crap for years. It is hard enough being an agent with ATF when you are attacked for bullshit and then have work for an agency that is run by people that should be fired for their lies. I never heard anything except you got a raw deal.




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