Your opinions have been posted and they have been allowed. You have brought nothing to the table but criticisms and problems, NOT ONE SOLUTION.
If this site didn't exist, there would BE NO TRANSPARENCY in the Bureau. Loos would still be in charge of ethics, Crenshaw would still be abusing the field as the AD of Internal Affairs. Edgar might have manipulated himself back into HQ. Thomasson would not have been held accountable for his incompetence as an ASAC. Stankoweicz would have gone unchallenged for his misconduct, as would Gillette, Newell, Gleysteen, Martin and Torres. McLemore was allowed to lie to the OIG, avoid prosecution with the backing of Sullivan, Carter and Hoover, and you are OK with that? Joe Gordon would still be decimating our operations and our people if somebody hadn't forced him to answer OIG questions under oath, (which he could not do).
If you really care, be a man about it. We have modified or corrected EVERY posting against management and even removed some that are unfair or uncorroborated. We have written open letters as a collective group to Billy and Melson. He has made 5 webcasts with no follow through. Take your concerns up with Mr. Melson and Mr. Holder, maybe they will respect and listen to you.
As for boycotting this site, that ain't gonna happen. The field must be included in the future of this Bureau. Let's be totally honest here, a GS-5 new hire Agent would have NEVER even considered letting guns go freely, much less actually implementing it.
Dear Dr. Frankenstein (Webmaster)
Started by Veritas, Mar 06 2011 09:33 PM
2 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
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Posted 07 March 2011 - 11:08 AM
"Dr. Frankenstein"? Ouch! OK, well, Dr. Frank has never promised and has no obligation (other than in your imaginary world) to "respect other people's views" (including yours), which he believes to be asinine. After all, there are people who believe that 911 was an "inside job", or that Allah will give them 40 virgins if they blow themselves and some infidels (like me) up. Must I respect their views? I think not. Now, I am not in any way comparing you to a "Truther" or a "terrorist". My point is simply that "respecting the opinions of others", particularly in a forum such as this, is basically a meaningless platitude, and certainly not something that I or this board have ever promised. You're simply doing what a lot of people do these days...confusing the way things are with the way you want them to be.Dear Dr. Frankenstein (Webmaster): Its obvious that respecting other peoples point of view is NOT a core principle espoused by you or your website.
And besides, in the approximately two years that this site has been operating, I have responded in an adversarial fashion to exactly ONE...well, OK, now TWO, posted topics (out of the more than 2,000 posted to date). That can hardly be described as indicative of a "core principle" by any rational standard. The notion that you can (or should be able to) come on here and say whatever you want without being challenged exists only in your head. You Sir, are therefore clearly full of it, Joe.
Who cares what you "encourage"? In fact, the registration rules that everyone sees and must explicitly agree-to when registering (including you), which is required prior to posting, state the following (in pertinent part):Since there are no first amendment rights on your privately owned website I would encourage you to overtly post that on your opening banner.
"This website and its Forums are provided as a courtesy service and usage is therefore a privilege rather than a "right". All users that use this website in any manner...thereby agree to ...fully comply with any and all conditions of use that the CUATF Webmaster and/or Moderators may deem appropriate."
Moreover, the Forum rules, accessible through a prominent link on the front page, state as follows:
"All posts may be reviewed by the Webmaster and/or Moderators, who reserve the right to edit them for the sake of brevity, etc. Furthermore, we reserve the unrestricted right to delete anything we deem to be inappropriate, objectionable, uninteresting, irrelevant or just plain stupid."
I'd say that's about as "overt" as it gets, wouldn't you? Or would you prefer that we sent you a hard copy memo?
No one (but you, apparently) ever expected that "most managers" would want to post on a website that involves a daily dose of harsh, well-deserved criticism aimed at their peer group.No wonder most managers don't want to participate in the discussion even though your website encourages their participation. You would just jump down their throat and call them liars, cowards, etc. Who would want that?
Show me a single instance in which I (unlike your fellow traveler, John Boy) have called anyone a "liar", "coward", etc. Despite your many whoppers, I will not do so in your case either.
We have also repeatedly encouraged ATF management to stop breaking the law by retaliating against its employees, to stop lying to the public and Congress, and to stop doing a lot of other stupid and unethical stuff. Does ATF management do all of that (or refuse to stop doing it) because of what is said on this website? Right. Talk about missing the point! Again, you Sir, are full of it at face value.
I am just one of almost 400 currently registered users on this board, and my posts to date constitute less than one 1/2 of 1% of the total. That's not much participation in "my own little bitch board". So, as I have stated previously, you Sir, are full of it.This is just your own little bitch board.
Based on the ever-increasing participation by newly-registered ATF personnel, that is clearly not an opinion shared by many of the other users of this board. And besides, you have yet to offer anything resembling a "solution". In my assessment, you are doing a pretty good job at embarrassing yourself.No solutions are sought out here. You are just trying to embarrass us all, not bring meaningful change.
Thinking you are entitled and actually being so are two entirely different things (wildly so, in your case). On this website, you have no such entitlement whatsoever (see the rules cited above), and the fact that you nevertheless believe you do, amply demonstrates how clueless you are. According to your logic, anytime someone somewhere writes something negative about ATF, you should have the "right" to make a counterargument, simply because you work for (or, used to work for) ATF??? What color is the sun in your world? Even if that were true (assuming some alternative reality), what's stopping you from starting your own "anti-CleanUpATF.org" website? If you feel so strongly about all this, put your money where your mouth is, Man. Then, you can tell me where to stick it in the unlikely event that I ever visit and post there.And by the way since what you put on here or "allow" on this site may someday effect my agency and career, I think I am entitled to express my own opinion to show those who are not in ATF who may visit that there is a divergence of opinion on how best to handle things.
I (and we) have considered such possibilities and do not believe them to be credible. We've had extensive discussions about the likely impact and ramifications of this site, and have concluded that they are, on balance, positive. This website and its operators will never unfairly fire, transfer, discipline, harass, intimidate or fail to lawfully protect any ATF employee. We will never instruct our legal counsel or managers to lie under oath or obstruct justice. We will never be responsible for allowing American-made weapons to kill heroic American law enforcement agents. Are you somehow unaware as to how patently ridiculous your arguments along these lines are? OK, stupid question.Have you ever considered that your methods are wrong? Have you considered that your actions might hurt innocent people? I think most fair minded people who read your responses to my previous posts and others would characterize you as a person blinded by anger. You could be doing just as much damage to ATF as the managers in HQ and DOJ that authorized "Fast and Furious" and other debacles. I wish you would just consider that but I don't think you will.
On the final point, however, you are correct. I will most likely not seriously consider just about anything that you personally have to say. Do you listen to people that you consider to be hopelessly misguided? OK, but be that as it may, I do not.
OK, you've stated your opinions. Duly noted and rejected as uninformed blather. You and I have had plenty of discussion; you just don't like the fact that I think that you are full of it and have repeatedly said as much. You want warm fuzzies and approbation? Too bad.I don't think anger and rage persuade others or change minds they only intimidate people and create fear. It seems apparent to me that you are moving closer to becoming THEM because you lost sight of US and who we are. I'm not advocating cover ups or lying, but I think there has to be a more civilized discourse within ATF, especially on a website where discussion is encouraged on the opening banner.
(Incidentally, where is this "opening banner" this guy keeps referring to?)
Touche, Mr. Truth. You have me all figured out...bravo! In point of fact, this website is but one of approximately 65 that I currently "control", and it's not even one of my faves, although I have enjoyed the combative spirit of this recent debate, I'll freely admit. The thing is, I'm not even slightly peeved, let alone "blinded by anger". So, although it's probably becoming rather ad nauseum by this point, you Sir, are FULL OF IT.If this post gets on your forum I would encourage all ATF personnel who care about ATF to boycott this site. Its really not a place to rationally exchange ideas or discuss different perspectives or find solutions. It seems to me that it is only the creation of a person who needs something to control. Hope you have fun Dr. Frankenstein playing with your monster.... till you can't control it anymore and it turns on you.
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I am going to allow your comments, including those calling for a boycott of this site, mainly because I think they will have precisely the opposite effect. However, I have had just about enough of you and your pomposity, Mr. Truth. This will be the end of our little tit-for-tat, as I believe it has run its course and will soon grow tiresome for our viewership (if it hasn't already). You've made your points, which I will handily summarize as follows:
1. This site sucks, is my "personal bitch board", "is not about positive change", "and will hurt ATF and its employees".
2. I am an evil malcontent "blinded by anger" and "who just wants to be in-control".
3. ATF people should boycott this site.
Got it. Have I missed anything?
Now, chill it and get back "on-topic" (as we define it, which does not include repeated attacks on our motives, content, subject matter, etc.), or you are gone.
#3
Veritas
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Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:33 PM
Dear Dr. Frankenstein (Webmaster): Its obvious that respecting other peoples point of view is NOT a core principle espoused by you or your website. Since there are no first amendment rights on your privately owned website I would encourage you to overtly post that on your opening banner. No wonder most managers don't want to participate in the discussion even though your website encourages their participation. You would just jump down their throat and call them liars, cowards, etc. Who would want that? This is just your own little bitch board. No solutions are sought out here. You are just trying to embarrass us all, not bring meaningful change. And by the way since what you put on here or "allow" on this site may someday effect my agency and career, I think I am entitled to express my own opinion to show those who are not in ATF who may visit that there is a divergence of opinion on how best to handle things.
Have you ever considered that your methods are wrong? Have you considered that your actions might hurt innocent people? I think most fair minded people who read your responses to my previous posts and others would characterize you as a person blinded by anger. You could be doing just as much damage to ATF as the managers in HQ and DOJ that authorized "Fast and Furious" and other debacles. I wish you would just consider that but I don't think you will.
I don't think anger and rage persuade others or change minds they only intimidate people and create fear. It seems apparent to me that you are moving closer to becoming THEM because you lost sight of US and who we are. I'm not advocating cover ups or lying, but I think there has to be a more civilized discourse within ATF, especially on a website where discussion is encouraged on the opening banner.
If this post gets on your forum I would encourage all ATF personnel who care about ATF to boycott this site. Its really not a place to rationally exchange ideas or discuss different perspectives or find solutions. It seems to me that it is only the creation of a person who needs something to control. Hope you have fun Dr. Frankenstein playing with your monster.... till you can't control it anymore and it turns on you.
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