Jump to content


Photo

ATF's Proposed Termination of Special Agent & Whistleblower Vincent A. Cefalu


  • Please log in to reply
149 replies to this topic

#1 Fedupwrkr

Fedupwrkr

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 26 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:59 PM

I would be interested to go to DC to testify.

I cannot do much at this point. Since my current case against ATF is being filed at the U.S. Supreme Court.

However, I was wondering once that matter is over is there anyway this website can be used to gather 50 or more people [the more the merrier] to arrange to have a platform where all of us can meet as a group before the Senate [Wash., DC hearings] and discuss the measurements implemented by ATF EEO personnel sometimes during the moment an aggrieved employee files valid Title VII violation claims against ATF that are sometimes adopted by EEOC and OFO during the administrative and appeals processes governed under 29 CFR 1614 that will prematurely and unfairly cause the unlawful dismissal of your civil action case once it is filed at the U.S. District Court and Court of Appeal?



#2 Fedupwrkr

Fedupwrkr

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 26 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:57 PM

sorry for all the posts.  I was posting while half asleep.  I tried to delete two posts but I just couldn't figure out how.  



#3 Fedupwrkr

Fedupwrkr

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 26 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:55 PM

I cannot do much at this point. Since my current case against ATF is being filed at the U.S. Supreme Court.

However, I was wondering once that matter is over is there anyway this website can be used to gather 50 or more people [the more the merrier] to arrange to have a platform where all of us can meet as a group before the Senate [Wash., DC hearings] and discuss the measurements implemented by ATF EEO personnel sometimes during the moment an aggrieved employee files valid Title VII violation claims against ATF that are sometimes adopted by EEOC and OFO during the administrative and appeals processes governed under 29 CFR 1614 that will prematurely and unfairly cause the unlawful dismissal of your civil action case once it is filed at the U.S. District Court and Court of Appeal?



#4 VINCENT A CEFALU

VINCENT A CEFALU

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 481 posts
  • LocationSAN FRANCISCO

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:28 AM

The mere fact that the Glory hole h it is still employed in a senior position is a slap in the face to alllll the other managers. Dont forget that Brandon fired Crenshaw and had him back on the job within TWO weeks? The agency has had me in limbo for over 3 yrs (full pay), and spending tons of tax payer $$$$ to TRY to terminate me on ONE unsupported allegation Newell was fired and reinstated in less time than it took to just deliver my proposal. Shoulda been a boss I guess. For the record, no one died as the result of my actions, I wasn't sleeping with my Secretary AND I never LIED to the OIG. I definitely didnt use government quarters for my deviant actions.

Can anyone positively confirm that "lack of candor" is the allegation?

Rumor mill says a concerned citizen provided a couple of key players with official documentation of the McLemore "lack of candor" and misappropriations. Might make for some interesting questions down the road. So much of what is "SOP" internally isn't going to fly with the general public.

p.s. They know about the glory hole, too.


<!-- isHtml:1 --><!-- isHtml:1 -->

#5 abteilung

abteilung

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 93 posts
  • LocationAmerica

Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:13 AM

I cannot do much at this point.  Since my current case against ATF is being filed at the U.S. Supreme Court.

 

However, I was wondering once that matter is over is there anyway this website can be used to gather 50 or more people [the more the merrier] to arrange to have a platform where all of us can meet as a group before the Senate [Wash., DC hearings] and discuss the measurements implemented by ATF EEO personnel sometimes during the moment an aggrieved employee files valid Title VII violation claims against ATF that are sometimes adopted by EEOC and OFO during the administrative and appeals processes governed under 29 CFR 1614 that will prematurely and unfairly cause the unlawful dismissal of your civil action case once it is filed at the U.S. District Court and Court of Appeal?

I would be interested.



#6 AuntieC

AuntieC
  • Members
  • 1 posts
  • LocationWashington, DC

Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:58 PM

I cannot do much at this point.  Since my current case against ATF is being filed at the U.S. Supreme Court.

 

However, I was wondering once that matter is over is there anyway this website can be used to gather 50 or more people [the more the merrier] to arrange to have a platform where all of us can meet as a group before the Senate [Wash., DC hearings] and discuss the measurements implemented by ATF EEO personnel sometimes during the moment an aggrieved employee files valid Title VII violation claims against ATF that are sometimes adopted by EEOC and OFO during the administrative and appeals processes governed under 29 CFR 1614 that will prematurely and unfairly cause the unlawful dismissal of your civil action case once it is filed at the U.S. District Court and Court of Appeal?



#7 ProConfesso

ProConfesso

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 148 posts
  • Location10-20

Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:16 AM

http://www.jsonline....-216100811.html

 

This case is noteworthy.

 

Hard to believe, for a lay person perhaps, that a government employee would suborn perjury, commit disability discrimination - in this day and age and direct employees in how to testify.  But indeed it has happened in ATF too.  I applaud Mark Crider and shame those in ATF who have never spoken the truth.



#8 PetePark1811

PetePark1811

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 72 posts

Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:39 PM

Hey, Ron Burgundy!
I appreciate you wanting Sandy to "Keep It Classy". It's funny you are so worried about someone telling their story. Is Jamie really someone else? Someone with another name on this site? Wow! Now I am making wild accusations. I guess I need counseling. Why is having someone tell their side of the story so upsetting to you? It really makes me wonder. As an actual ATF Agent, we have only heard bits and pieces of Sandy and Vince's stories. A lot of us would like to hear their side. Without a doubt, ATF upper management will put out a story that makes them look as good as possible. Is it so outrageous to you that some of us would like to hear their side? Who are you? Are you a "gerbil?" You couldn't be a mole, because everyone who disagrees with you is a mole. Now, please let the actual ATF agents discuss topics and go back to figuring out the World Trade Center attack. Here is a clue, two planes hit the buildings.

Taladega
Sandy,

Unfortunately, there are some "Moles" who come on this site to create problems just so we can fight or argue with them. Just so they can have this site full of threads arguing with them, in order to point out to other people how "corrupt" the site is.

They are uniquely disguised as people who want information, attackers, and quick be-frienders.

I'm glad you continue to keep it classy and ignore them. :)



#9 Jaime3

Jaime3

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • LocationWI

Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:27 PM

Sandy,

Unfortunately, there are some "Moles" who come on this site to create problems just so we can fight or argue with them. Just so they can have this site full of threads arguing with them, in order to point out to other people how "corrupt" the site is.

They are uniquely disguised as people who want information, attackers, and quick be-frienders.

I'm glad you continue to keep it classy and ignore them. :)

#10 PetePark1811

PetePark1811

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 72 posts

Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:21 PM

I did and you are still avoiding the question. Wait, the question had nothing to do with you. I am asking for facts and I get you. Sandy can speak for herself and Vince has always, always been able to speak for himself.

Please refer to my post in "Opportunity."




#11 Jaime3

Jaime3

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • LocationWI

Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:31 PM

Please refer to my post in "Opportunity."

Jamie,
Again, why so defensive??? Asking someone to tell their side of a story sure gets you nervous. I don't need you to speak for all. I need everyone to be accountable for their own words. I am not perfect, but at least I try to stick to the facts. People sit here and make accusations. I ask for details of their mistreatment. Sandy is long gone from ATF. Vince has been fired. Why not explain what happened. Maybe Sandy can't talk about her case due to a settlement. FIne, just say so. Vince might still be fighting his case and can't get into details right now. Fine, just say so. Funny, you can come onto this site and call Newell, Hoover, Chait, etc... all criminals and then bad mouth any one who doesn't tow the "$#&@ ATF" line. We still don't know all the details of F&F, since the case is about to go to trial and several defendants are working out plea deals. We can hear the facts of Sandy and Vince's cases.



#12 PetePark1811

PetePark1811

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 72 posts

Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:18 PM

Jamie,
Again, why so defensive??? Asking someone to tell their side of a story sure gets you nervous. I don't need you to speak for all. I need everyone to be accountable for their own words. I am not perfect, but at least I try to stick to the facts. People sit here and make accusations. I ask for details of their mistreatment. Sandy is long gone from ATF. Vince has been fired. Why not explain what happened. Maybe Sandy can't talk about her case due to a settlement. FIne, just say so. Vince might still be fighting his case and can't get into details right now. Fine, just say so. Funny, you can come onto this site and call Newell, Hoover, Chait, etc... all criminals and then bad mouth any one who doesn't tow the "$#&@ ATF" line. We still don't know all the details of F&F, since the case is about to go to trial and several defendants are working out plea deals. We can hear the facts of Sandy and Vince's cases.

As I mentioned in the other room,


I will say this once (maybe twice) ;) and I'm sure I speak for all.

If you're not an Attorney, an individual's representative, an individual's witness, or God.

Well I'm sure at this point, you've figured out by the titles listed, no one owes you anything to know about their "Story."

That about sums it all up. :D

Have fun fishing!



#13 Jaime3

Jaime3

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • LocationWI

Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:10 PM

As I mentioned in the other room,


I will say this once (maybe twice) ;) and I'm sure I speak for all.

If you're not an Attorney, an individual's representative, an individual's witness, or God.

Well I'm sure at this point, you've figured out by the titles listed, no one owes you anything to know about their "Story."

That about sums it all up. :D

Have fun fishing!

#14 PetePark1811

PetePark1811

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 72 posts

Posted 08 January 2012 - 01:48 PM

Vince,
Please give us a detailed posting of what ATF management has done to you. I know the rumors and I want to stop basing my opinions on rumors. Please give us facts. Exactly what started your fight with ATF. From my understanding, it had nothing to do with F&F. Your fight started long before that came up. Also, from my understanding, the agents in Phoenix are the ones who blew the whistle on F&F, not you. Please give us the facts. And let the attacks being!

Dear Lord - just saw this. See me if you want emails whereby the Ombsudsmans' Office cuts you off on advice of Counsel.



#15 Scooby

Scooby
  • Members
  • 4 posts
  • LocationChantilly, VA

Posted 09 September 2011 - 01:51 PM

Couldn't believe McMahon said that with a straight face! I actually laughed out loud.

Dear Lord - just saw this. See me if you want emails whereby the Ombsudsmans' Office cuts you off on advice of Counsel.

#16 Guest_CovertOne_*

Guest_CovertOne_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 August 2011 - 12:31 PM

Los Angeles SAC John Torres invents a story of his glorious work as an undercover operative. Be mindful this is total fiction but he tried to make it non-fiction by using his real name in the story. He manipulates the Los Angeles Times, embarasses that paper, but serves his personal goal by exposeing himself to a million readers and making himself attractive as a consultant to the entertainment and movie industry. Link to the story below.

In the story he talks about his use of a transmitter/wire concealed in an Ipod. HUGE MISTAKE JT. Or, "Omar" as you like to be called.

ATF questions Omar and he does what he does best, he tries to lie his way out of his lie. His answer for the compromise is that he was talking about a "Walkman", not an Ipod. It was the authors error, not his. As riduculous as that lie is Omar failed to do his research. In the days of Walkman's the wire technology was never small enough to conceal in a Walkman. There never was such a thing as a "Walkman-wire". The technology only recently has shrunk to the point where it can be concealed in such a small disguise as an Ipod.

This is the problem with habitual and pathological liars. One lie leads to the next and there is not basis for any of it.

So Omar/JT/SAC Torres compromises a vital piece of undercover equipment that is both vital to officer safety and very expensive. In Omar's quest to to be the "go to guy in Hollywood" (JT's words, not mine) as a law enforcment consultant, he risks the lives of cops everywhere and makes costly equipment obsolete with one newspaper interview.

Other law enforcment agencies that also use the Ipod wire are in a fit with ATF. Oma's interview has cost them thousands of dollars in what is now an unusable piece of equipment. ATF itself is probably out to the tune of $75K or more. Agent and Officer lives have been placed in extreme risk.

At the time of the interview JT was facing perjury allegations, a stack of EEOC complaints and a track record of mismanagment to the most extreme levels (see Bill Newell for comparison).

Melson, Hoover and McMahon have proteced Torres for years, just like they did Newell.

Now, Vince Cefalu is being terminated for a fabricated and incomplete and one-sided allegation of "Lack of Candor"? They also recently suspended Vince for 6 days in the midst of their attempt to fire him for a trumped up allegation that they dug out from 5 years ago.

Vince has no gun, no badge and now, no pay. John Torres sits pretty as the SAC in Los Angeles. Bill Newell gets a promotion to headquarters, all expenses paid and addtional Temporary Duty pay. Same for George Gillett. Same for Jeff Voth. Bill McMahon is promoted to run Internal Affiars. You know who the person was who voted to fire Vince Cefalu for Lack of Candor? You guessed it, Bill McMahon! He knows that the lack of candor he displayed during his congressional testimony would mean nothing to Melson and Hoover. He also knew that by signing off on Vince's termination he could help ATF eliminate a squeeky wheel.

If this double standard enrages you, write to Holder, write to Melson, write to Hoover, write to McMahon and write to Issa and Grassley. The unilateral assualt on whistleblowers side by side with the unilateral protection of corrupt managers will not end until we demand that it ends. Issa and Grassley are the ones who can put a stop to it.

http://www.latimesma...affic-stop.html

The corrupt managers with blood on their hands are safe but the whistleblower who did nothing wrong but speak up and tell the truth is on the street alone and abandoned. ...And headquarters laughed.

Oh, almost forgot. ATF is suing Dobyns for his book. Claiming he damaged ATF and that he didn't have permission to write it so he violated the ATF media policy. Torres didn't have ATF permission to tell his lie/story either. He damaged the government and a private business by compromising an important piece of equipment, hundreds of thousands of dollars nationwide to anyone who purchases, has purchased or manufactures that equipment. Not to mention risking the lives of hundreds of undercover officers and potentially compromising hundreds of ongoing investigations.

Is ATF going to sue Torres as they have Dobyns? Best bet is that they will protect Torres (see McMahon, Newell, Gillett, Voth for examples) and try to wring out all the money, spirit and fight from Dobyns as they are doing to Cefalu.

Bad move ATF. You took on two of America's nastiest fighters and they will make you pay now or pay more later, either way your and your corrupt nature lose.

#17 VINCENT A CEFALU

VINCENT A CEFALU

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 481 posts
  • LocationSAN FRANCISCO

Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:13 AM

First let me thank all of you for your kind words and support. The part that our ATF Senior leadership has never understood is that this Agency is about its Agents, Inspectors and Staff, Not the bosses. We took an oath to the Constitution, and the American people, not to corrupt bosses. CLEANUPATF would not even exist, much less be working off of a Hundred thousand views, if it were not for the wide spread abuses by Senior leadership heaped upon our Agents and the firearms industry. It is a sad scenario personally, when my performance for 30+ years in the United States government can be retroactively attacked with malicious intent because I reported wrong doings. That I was warned by Dennis Downs, Michael Gleysteen and SAC Vido that if I pursued my complaints and reported my observations, my life and my career would be destroyed. The arrogance and abuse of power had no oversight. Now it DOES. All of US have not only a legal obligation to help return ATF to its Ethically defensible greatness and credibility, but a moral obligation as well. We have seen and experienced what unchecked power has done to ATF. We now have an opportunity to do something about it.
<!-- isHtml:1 --><!-- isHtml:1 -->

#18 Enufsenuf

Enufsenuf

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • LocationSomewhere in the US

Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:51 PM

Hey Vince, McMahon said in his testimony that Agents can go to the Ombudsman! You know, the office that reports calls to ATF Counsel. Or the office that is unfamiliar with ATF Orders and is unwilling to intervene with management. I am the Walrus.

Couldn't believe McMahon said that with a straight face! I actually laughed out loud.
Keepin' on keepin' on!

#19 ProConfesso

ProConfesso

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 148 posts
  • Location10-20

Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:03 PM

Hey Vince, McMahon said in his testimony that Agents can go to the Ombudsman! You know, the office that reports calls to ATF Counsel. Or the office that is unfamiliar with ATF Orders and is unwilling to intervene with management. I am the Walrus.

#20 CUATF Webmaster

CUATF Webmaster

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 229 posts
  • LocationClassified.

Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:32 AM

Vince Cefalu's 07/26/2011 Appearance on Fox Business' "Nightly Scoreboard" with David Asman:



#21 CUATF Webmaster

CUATF Webmaster

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 229 posts
  • LocationClassified.

Posted 25 July 2011 - 06:50 PM

Yes, there is a way, and it involves me spending time I don't have to monitor and police every discussion. Fortunately, some of you aren't shy about telling me when something is amiss. :)

Yes, agreed CUATF Webmaster. Is there a way to keep these topics from turning into a "chat room", that is where they become distracted and completely off base.



#22 Guest_microscope_*

Guest_microscope_*
  • Guests

Posted 25 July 2011 - 02:49 PM

Yes, agreed CUATF Webmaster. Is there a way to keep these topics from turning into a "chat room", that is where they become distracted and completely off base. This one got away fast. I think people think this is like "chat" of Facebook. The postings should be on the topic, stay to the point and advance the topic, not turn into a question and answer period. So, this is not confirmed but Vince is reported scheduled to be on television several times this week. Interviews following the hearings on Fox and elsewhere. I will try to get more details.

OK folks, some of you are getting so far off-topic that I just can't stand it anymore.

READ THE TOPIC NAME:
"Vince Cefalu Firing"



#23 CUATF Webmaster

CUATF Webmaster

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 229 posts
  • LocationClassified.

Posted 24 July 2011 - 04:01 PM

OK folks, some of you are getting so far off-topic that I just can't stand it anymore.

READ THE TOPIC NAME:

"Vince Cefalu Firing"


This topic has nothing to do with Waco! Stay on topic!

All of the irrelevant posts have been moved to the archives section here.

#24 x1811

x1811

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 66 posts
  • LocationEverywhere

Posted 23 July 2011 - 01:33 PM

Look in "Unpunished Misdeeds." Her violations are detailed in a DOJ OIJ report in which they recommended she be criminally prosecuted. The point I think some of us are trying to make here is that Vince has been fired for "alleged" lack of candor. Some high ranking people in ATF have been found to commit criminal acts and weren't fired, but were actually promoted. Vince completely denies all these allegations and the violation of "Lack of Candor" is sketchy at best. So, if Vince was actually in upper management, would he have been promoted instead of being fired. Joe Gordon was a white male and got away with tons of stuff, but he was in management. They finally forced him to retire. Funny thing about Joe was that he was extremely competent. It was just he had a split personality that was extremely kind, then extremely cruel. He disliked minorities and made horrible comments when they left the room. I too have had the benefit of working with outstanding agents throughout my career. Every black agent and TFO that I have worked with was a better agent than me. Nothing personal, but just the reality. We have great people, but we also curse ourselves by promoting the idiots away from the street agents so we don't have to deal with them. It is a recipe for disaster. We don't force people into management. We allow our best people to stay on the street where they can do the most good, putting violent criminals in jail. Not all upper managers are problems. We have a lot of good people up there.

Everything I am hearing says it won't matter soon. ATF is going to be forced into being split. The NRA is going to get their worse nightmare. The gun laws will be enforced by the FBI. I will be praying for the 2nd amendment.

Take it from someone who has intimate knowledge of the FBI having participated in task forces with them, and working within their paradigm for a very long time. They have absolutely NO interest in assuming regulatory jurisdiction, or inspection duties related to firearms. After reading your post praying for the 2nd Amendment surviving, I appreciate the comments of Original Ralph. Also direct your attention to blogs such as Sipsey Street Irregulars, you will be confronted with a littany of allegations of ATF abuses of 2nd Amendment rights. With all the problems published on CUATF by ATF Agents and employees concerning poor management, corruption, laziness, adopting cases, back stabbing, retribution against whistle blowers, refusal to protect UC agents and families, incompetence, walking guns, cover ups, etc, etc., etc., the last thing that you should be doing is to throw another agency under the bus. No, the FBI is not perfect, far from it. Nor is the DEA, USSS, ICE, Marshals, CBP, IRS, DSS, and the host of OIGs out there operating at peak efficiency and effectiveness. I've worked with agents in all of these agencies, as well as in the ATF. In each of these agencies, ATF included, I've had the distinct pleasure of being associated with men and women for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration. Also included in each of these agencies, that's right all of them, I encountered agents who should have never been afforded the privledge of carrying a badge and gun. They exist in each and every law enforcement organization in this country. So my advice to you, if you care, is to check the ego at the door and take care of your own house.

#25 Historic Arms LLC

Historic Arms LLC

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 31 posts
  • LocationGeorgia

Posted 23 July 2011 - 12:39 PM

The Original Ralph brings up a great point. ATF management and CCO does not reward anybody (read that an employed special agent or a licensee) taking a stand or speaking out on any issue. Special Agent Vince Cefalu in my opinion stood up for what was right...and as anyone familiar with Murphy's Law knows "No good deed goes unpunished".

As to Original Ralph's post on the "180 degree reversals on rulings, often without public notification, putting folks into felony violation status in the blink of an eye", please see the attached PDF document.

FWIW those of you who read the PDF, I called the attorney who wrote it [James P. Vann] and suggested he just come and compel me. He nor the ATF ever did.

Mr. Cefalu you are leader. Like or not you and several others on this forum are leaders. Having the stones to stand up for what is right and decent is never easy or free. Godspeed in fighting the corruption and your wrongful termination.

Len Savage

Historic Arms LLC

Attached Files



#26 ATFTRUTHTELLER

ATFTRUTHTELLER

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • LocationHell

Posted 23 July 2011 - 07:42 AM

So, what did Vanessa do? She evidently has some sort of government consulting company now. I'm curious to know specifically what she did.

Look in "Unpunished Misdeeds." Her violations are detailed in a DOJ OIJ report in which they recommended she be criminally prosecuted. The point I think some of us are trying to make here is that Vince has been fired for "alleged" lack of candor. Some high ranking people in ATF have been found to commit criminal acts and weren't fired, but were actually promoted. Vince completely denies all these allegations and the violation of "Lack of Candor" is sketchy at best. So, if Vince was actually in upper management, would he have been promoted instead of being fired. Joe Gordon was a white male and got away with tons of stuff, but he was in management. They finally forced him to retire. Funny thing about Joe was that he was extremely competent. It was just he had a split personality that was extremely kind, then extremely cruel. He disliked minorities and made horrible comments when they left the room. I too have had the benefit of working with outstanding agents throughout my career. Every black agent and TFO that I have worked with was a better agent than me. Nothing personal, but just the reality. We have great people, but we also curse ourselves by promoting the idiots away from the street agents so we don't have to deal with them. It is a recipe for disaster. We don't force people into management. We allow our best people to stay on the street where they can do the most good, putting violent criminals in jail. Not all upper managers are problems. We have a lot of good people up there.

Everything I am hearing says it won't matter soon. ATF is going to be forced into being split. The NRA is going to get their worse nightmare. The gun laws will be enforced by the FBI. I will be praying for the 2nd amendment.

#27 Pama

Pama

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 51 posts
  • LocationAnchorage

Posted 23 July 2011 - 12:15 AM

I say we go back as far as we can remember. Those of us who have been around for twenty years know some funny stories. How 'bout the attache for Canada who got thrown out for two separate allegations of rape and then still got promoted. Of course, it's hard to beat all the stuff Vanessa McLemore (?) did. That could be a topic in itself.

So, what did Vanessa do? She evidently has some sort of government consulting company now. I'm curious to know specifically what she did.

#28 Guest_old school_*

Guest_old school_*
  • Guests

Posted 22 July 2011 - 05:39 PM

Sure, but there were also those white males who stood up for us (blacks/minorites/women) - they had the most to lose and were the most vulnerable, yet they still stood up. And not for themselves, but because they saw the injustices done to others. Many are still running around with no more career/pension/health care. Please do not forget them. I know I never will.

Yes Sandy, been there and done that for the groups you mentioned above. Paid the price three times over ten years ago, not just now, we did not have a website back then. Can't say more about it. Maybe that will convince those like GunnyT I am not a racist as he implied. If not, I don't give a flip. Out.

#29 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

Guest_Sandy Davis_*
  • Guests

Posted 22 July 2011 - 08:09 AM

when a certain disenfranchised group stood up and took matters into there own hands to demand fair treatment I suspect a good number of the posters on this site were at the forefront of criticizing, demeaning, and even actively fighting ( and funding efforts)to thwart those efforts. The "system" did not effect you then.

Sure, but there were also those white males who stood up for us (blacks/minorites/women) - they had the most to lose and were the most vulnerable, yet they still stood up. And not for themselves, but because they saw the injustices done to others. Many are still running around with no more career/pension/health care. Please do not forget them. I know I never will.

#30 GunnyT

GunnyT

    FNG

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 22 July 2011 - 05:27 AM

While I have been aware of this site for some time I have only recently explored and read the many postings and forums written over the last several years. I am a long time employee who also loves this agency. I too am beside myself with angered at how my agency has been "hijacked" by the current inept leadership (of various races and sex I may add). But why is everyone so surprised, just now angered about this, and calling for change? Has it just been over the last two or three year that many of you have realized the state of ATF? The path to our current terrain was set on a long time ago but I guess it's just now beginning to affect a broader "population" of employees?

A significant number of ATF's current leadership were born out of the "good ol boy " system of serial promoting of individuals who were anointed or "part of the club." Competence and experience was of no relevance but when a certain disenfranchised group stood up and took matters into there own hands to demand fair treatment I suspect a good number of the posters on this site were at the forefront of criticizing, demeaning, and even actively fighting ( and funding efforts)to thwart those efforts. The "system" did not effect you then. I was just a group of unqualified employees, who aren't qualified to be here any was, trying to get something for nothing.....and just playing the card. It that was/is you though then shame on you.

Well boys and girls the roosters have come home to roost in the form of the Mark Chaits, Bill McMahons, George Gilletts, Joe Riehls, Virginia O'Brien's , Mark Potters and .....oh yes the Kelvin Crenshaws, Larry Fords and Vanessa Mclemores (but get over Vanessa id long gone get over her). Ineptness comes in all flavors.

This should not be about race and your post, Old School, was uncalled for. It appears there is a lot more than just the leadership that needs to be cleaned up in ATF. You/we need to focus on cleaning up our Bureau and not make comments that will cause dissension and divide.

#31 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

Guest_Sandy Davis_*
  • Guests

Posted 22 July 2011 - 04:33 AM

Vinny - Can you say "seven-figures?"

Unfortunately, it is usually very difficult to get past the government's immunities, regardless of how outrageously they acted and how extreme the injury they caused. The settlements are normally painfully inadequate. Fighting this monster is something that you really have to do on principal, and if you get any real money, just consider that a major blessing. Fortunately, Medusa is so offensive, there is a lot of satisfaction in just beating her up.

Regarding the black agents - It is simply a fact that there are more protections in place for women and minorities, which leave the white males much more vulnerable to Medusa. As far as the bigotry that does indeed exist at ATF, if makes most of us sick. And the whites are not the only bigots ATF, I could name more than a handful of black bigots who do more to hurt the 'cause' than any ignorant good old boy ever could. Unless every agent comes together to fight this ugly monster, regardless of gender or race, chances are not much will ever change.

#32 Guest_old school_*

Guest_old school_*
  • Guests

Posted 22 July 2011 - 03:53 AM

Only a matter of time for the undertones to began to surface right Old School? Those damn black agents!

To all - Not my point at all and I would never say that. I work with many fine employees who happen to be minorities but I do not see them as that. They are my brothers and sisters in ATF, my equals. But there are some, some I said, that play a card, or threaten to play a card, or management is afraid they will play a card, and it appears that those employees seem to consistently get a pass on bad or poor behavior. Minority friends have confirmed this to me. And that happens from new agent training to SES positions. I think Vince's and Jays sups were white and there are cetainly many bad apples of all stripes. Please don't misinterpret what I said in my post and forgive me if I did not state it appropriately. I could certainly be wrong in my thinking but my experiences tell me differently. This has always been the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to acknowledge or talk about but we all know its there. Everyone, repeat, everyone needs to be treated fairly with no discrimination, reverse discrimination, or retailiation and be held accountable for poor performance or misconduct. These type situations are just one example of how that does not happen in ATF.

#33 Guest_Simple Man_*

Guest_Simple Man_*
  • Guests

Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:08 PM

Vinny - Can you say "seven-figures?"

Bird - Newell would be in so much of a better spot on Tuesday if he just hadn't let the real arsonists get away while he was trying to frame you for trying to kill your family. Dang it!

#34 Guest_Epic Failure_*

Guest_Epic Failure_*
  • Guests

Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:26 PM

GunnyT, I am not sure I fully understand your comment so I will remain silent on that but my first inclination was not a postive one. Maybe you intended that to come off in a way different than I interpreted it and I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I have worked with Agents of every race, color and gender on this job. Some from each catagory have been outstanding, others good and some bad.

I am a white male. I have worked some some black agents that have made me nothing but proud to stand side by side with them. Others have taken advantage of the system, just like agents from all the other catagories.

I write this because I know both Vince and Jay, better than fairly well or having just crossed paths on occasion. I've drank with them and their outstand work not to be included, that is when they are at their best. Some of the people they admire most on this job are black. Many times I have heard them state their love for the likes of Craig Caridine, Charlie Smith, Eric Harden, Andrew Worrell, Bobby Gant, John Taylor, Jeff Bell, Jeff Magee, and many more (I actually think that Jay thinks he is black [joke]). I am speaking for them and I have no right to. I just know how these guys feel about "ATF Agents" regardless of color. Jay actually told me one time that if his son grew up to be the man that Craig Caridine is he feels he will have done his job well as a father. Can't get much higher praise than that.

The most interesting part of this story is that all of the executives who have come after those two in anger are white. I won't say anymore but I hope that I have spoken for Jay and Vince in a proper way. I think I have. Both as a peer and as a friend.

Only a matter of time for the undertones to began to surface right Old School? Those damn black agents!



#35 The Original Ralph

The Original Ralph

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 110 posts
  • LocationSE

Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:07 PM

not sure why that would demonstrate racial undertones - look at what DOJ openly did to those black panther thugs that were blocking a voting station with night sticks. AFTER their conviction, which occurred under the Bush administration, then before the sentencing date, DOJ under Holder WITHDREW THE CHARGES and dismissed the case

not sure old school's point doesn't have some merit

#36 GunnyT

GunnyT

    FNG

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 21 July 2011 - 07:34 PM

Only a matter of time for the undertones to began to surface right Old School? Those damn black agents!

#37 Guest_old school_*

Guest_old school_*
  • Guests

Posted 21 July 2011 - 06:46 PM

To be clear. I did not, have not or will not Lack candor, embellish, manipulate or lie to make my point. This proposal is without basis, Downs, Bort Seese, and Gleysteen lied (did not lack Candor), they lied under oath. As usual IA has decidied to manipulate and withold the FACTS and cherry picked the sentence here or there to paint a picture. Thank you ALL for your support of me, but more importantly for Showing Congress and DOJ that its not the agencys thats corrupt. Its not managers that are corrupt. It is a SELECT circle of managers who are corrupt. Not once in ANY hearing or action under oath have I invoked Attorney client privalege, or stated "I dont know or I dont recall" over 50 times to my actions or decisions. Gleysteen has.

unspoken truths: I wonder if Vince and Jay were minorities if their retaliation would be so severe or would have happened at all. I am not a racist but we all see what happens everyday. Don't tell me it doesnt, it does, and reverse discrimination happens as well. Anyone who doesnt is not being honest. My atty told me my retaliation case was solid but would not be successful because I was a white male. That was brutally honest and it pissed me off. A lot of people are scared of offending someone or getting a "card" played on them. I think if Vince and Jay were minorities they would still be hated by some management for what they are doing but it would never get this far. Vince and Jay have no card to play so it seems they are fair game. Did the three SACs that have been accused of lying under oath, and one stealing, etc. during their career have a "card" to play?

#38 Casual Observer

Casual Observer

    FNG

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 21 July 2011 - 04:30 AM

Vince Cefalu you are a warrior extraordinaire. This would have caved in most people. What IA has historically done, and which is ass-backwards for investigators, is to form their desired outcome in advance and then build their investigation to fit a predetermined conclusion. There are countless examples of them doing this. They interview only the witnesses that serve their goal. They ignore relevant truths that do not support what they want their findings to be. Then they turn over their "investigation" (and I use that term very loosely when in comes to ATF IA, more accurate would be "their whitewashing") to the ATF Attorneys who are more than willing to not ask any due dilligence questions or obvious gaps. In the end good agents get set-up and framed (see, Dobyns). This will all come out. Melanie Stinnett has brought nothing more to IA as the AD than any of her predassesors. Accountability is on the way. If anyone thinks the the Congressions Fast and Furious investigation will just stop on that topic they are wrong. This has grown into a total and comprehensive investigation of ATF's bad management and Hitlerish treatment of the workforce.

As many who have been thru a few rodeos know, often times, especially with things like F&F, the Wall Street banksters rip-off, etc, the "investigation" is part of the cover-up.

#39 Guest_Epic Failure_*

Guest_Epic Failure_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 July 2011 - 09:48 AM

Vince Cefalu you are a warrior extraordinaire. This would have caved in most people. What IA has historically done, and which is ass-backwards for investigators, is to form their desired outcome in advance and then build their investigation to fit a predetermined conclusion. There are countless examples of them doing this. They interview only the witnesses that serve their goal. They ignore relevant truths that do not support what they want their findings to be. Then they turn over their "investigation" (and I use that term very loosely when in comes to ATF IA, more accurate would be "their whitewashing") to the ATF Attorneys who are more than willing to not ask any due dilligence questions or obvious gaps. In the end good agents get set-up and framed (see, Dobyns). This will all come out. Melanie Stinnett has brought nothing more to IA as the AD than any of her predassesors. Accountability is on the way. If anyone thinks the the Congressions Fast and Furious investigation will just stop on that topic they are wrong. This has grown into a total and comprehensive investigation of ATF's bad management and Hitlerish treatment of the workforce.

To be clear. I did not, have not or will not Lack candor, embellish, manipulate or lie to make my point. This proposal is without basis, Downs, Bort Seese, and Gleysteen lied (did not lack Candor), they lied under oath. As usual IA has decidied to manipulate and withold the FACTS and cherry picked the sentence here or there to paint a picture. Thank you ALL for your support of me, but more importantly for Showing Congress and DOJ that its not the agencys thats corrupt. Its not managers that are corrupt. It is a SELECT circle of managers who are corrupt. Not once in ANY hearing or action under oath have I invoked Attorney client privalege, or stated "I dont know or I dont recall" over 50 times to my actions or decisions. Gleysteen has.



#40 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

Guest_Sandy Davis_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:52 AM

"If you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way". - EMILE ZOLA

Uh, Medusa, I'd say this may be the time to start running. And given the decades that truth has been shoved underground at ATF, I'd advise to run far and run fast. I'm afraid this eruption is going to leave quite the crater. :o

#41 VINCENT A CEFALU

VINCENT A CEFALU

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 481 posts
  • LocationSAN FRANCISCO

Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:40 AM

To be clear. I did not, have not or will not Lack candor, embellish, manipulate or lie to make my point. This proposal is without basis, Downs, Bort Seese, and Gleysteen lied (did not lack Candor), they lied under oath. As usual IA has decidied to manipulate and withold the FACTS and cherry picked the sentence here or there to paint a picture. Thank you ALL for your support of me, but more importantly for Showing Congress and DOJ that its not the agencys thats corrupt. Its not managers that are corrupt. It is a SELECT circle of managers who are corrupt. Not once in ANY hearing or action under oath have I invoked Attorney client privalege, or stated "I dont know or I dont recall" over 50 times to my actions or decisions. Gleysteen has.

Excellent point. If Vanessa can get promoted after getting caught lying, continue lying and get caught. Have DOJ IG request she be prosecuted criminally, then let her retire as a Special Assistant to the Director - how do you justify firing someone for "Lack of Candor." If you implement a zero tolerance policy, then you must go to your upper management and address those individuals that have been promoted and have been found to have lied directly to Internal Affairs in the past. Until then, the policy is something used only for retaliation. Hold everyone to the same standard. Wow! It is sad that this is a novel concept.


<!-- isHtml:1 --><!-- isHtml:1 -->

#42 Guest_Epic Failure_*

Guest_Epic Failure_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:04 AM

Want to see a whiny, uninformed, backpeddling, deer in the head lights, governement Bureaucrat try to explain himself?

Here Melson tells America why he blocked CleanUpATF. This a part of the piece on the retaliation of ATF against Vince Cefalu (the first round, not the fireing). Flat out lies.



#43 ATFTRUTHTELLER

ATFTRUTHTELLER

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • LocationHell

Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:12 PM

onesparkz makes a great point for you. If ATF tolerates a lot then they have to tolerate a little. That is not to say that you are guilty, I'm sure you are not. Life as a whistleblower at ATF is terrible. If they let Torres off then they have to restore your job, regardless of facts or circumstances. My best wishes to you and Jay. If they can do this to you guys then everyone knows they can and will do it to us. Holder and Melson need to go away at best and preferabbly to prison. They would make interesting cellies.


Excellent point. If Vanessa can get promoted after getting caught lying, continue lying and get caught. Have DOJ IG request she be prosecuted criminally, then let her retire as a Special Assistant to the Director - how do you justify firing someone for "Lack of Candor." If you implement a zero tolerance policy, then you must go to your upper management and address those individuals that have been promoted and have been found to have lied directly to Internal Affairs in the past. Until then, the policy is something used only for retaliation. Hold everyone to the same standard. Wow! It is sad that this is a novel concept.

#44 Guest_DavisLowrider_*

Guest_DavisLowrider_*
  • Guests

Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:22 PM

onesparkz makes a great point for you. If ATF tolerates a lot then they have to tolerate a little. That is not to say that you are guilty, I'm sure you are not. Life as a whistleblower at ATF is terrible. If they let Torres off then they have to restore your job, regardless of facts or circumstances. My best wishes to you and Jay. If they can do this to you guys then everyone knows they can and will do it to us. Holder and Melson need to go away at best and preferabbly to prison. They would make interesting cellies.

Vince, please see my posting under the Fast and Furious topic. It relates to you.



#45 Guest_onesparkz_*

Guest_onesparkz_*
  • Guests

Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:01 PM

Vince, please see my posting under the Fast and Furious topic. It relates to you.

#46 ATFTRUTHTELLER

ATFTRUTHTELLER

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • LocationHell

Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:26 PM

I say we go back as far as we can remember. Those of us who have been around for twenty years know some funny stories. How 'bout the attache for Canada who got thrown out for two separate allegations of rape and then still got promoted. Of course, it's hard to beat all the stuff Vanessa McLemore (?) did. That could be a topic in itself.

#47 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

Guest_Sandy Davis_*
  • Guests

Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:18 PM

It would be interesting to see list the crazy stuff upper management has gotten away with through the years and who they have gone after for so, so much less. From Matt Horace getting days off for lying directly to Internal Affairs, then getting promoted, then to Kelvin Crenshaw throwing Internal Affairs out of Seattle during an investigation, then getting promoted to the head of Internal Affairs. Seriously, we should start a list of these crazy stories. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with race. Dick Chase didn't even live in Denver when he was the SAC and stole a bunch of car parts upon his departure. Once you are their ugly baby (upper management) you can do no wrong. What about the agent who didn't report to the tracing center and just sat at her house in Chicago for a full year getting paid. When they finally figured it out, nothing happened to her.



A list - that's a wonderful idea! Why don't you get it started on another thread? How far can we go back?

#48 ATFTRUTHTELLER

ATFTRUTHTELLER

    Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • LocationHell

Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:01 PM

It would be interesting to see list the crazy stuff upper management has gotten away with through the years and who they have gone after for so, so much less. From Matt Horace getting days off for lying directly to Internal Affairs, then getting promoted, then to Kelvin Crenshaw throwing Internal Affairs out of Seattle during an investigation, then getting promoted to the head of Internal Affairs. Seriously, we should start a list of these crazy stories. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with race. Dick Chase didn't even live in Denver when he was the SAC and stole a bunch of car parts upon his departure. Once you are their ugly baby (upper management) you can do no wrong. What about the agent who didn't report to the tracing center and just sat at her house in Chicago for a full year getting paid. When they finally figured it out, nothing happened to her.

#49 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

Guest_Sandy Davis_*
  • Guests

Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:18 PM

Oh those nasty bastards.

#50 Jay Dobyns

Jay Dobyns

    Regular

  • Bird
  • PipPipPip
  • 33 posts

Posted 15 July 2011 - 08:28 AM

Let me tell you a short Vince story that I have first hand knowledge of. If anyone wants to dispute what I post, please do, but know that I hold personal documentation.

Background:

SAC Paul Vido, then SAC of San Francisco, is approached through the chain-of-command by Vince so that Vince can report to Vido directly his allegations on an illegal wiretap in an investigation. Vince's request is denied by the chain-of-command and Vince is advised that Vido refuses to meet with his agent.

Vince makes a formal allegation on the illegal wiretap. Vido and the chain-of-command are now embarassed and attack Vince to cover their failure to recognize or address the illegal wiretap due to Vido's closed door policy and refusal and unwillingness to listen. In doing so ATF conducts a frame-job on him that has evolved into his recent proposed termination. The full details on that will be out soon.

This closed door policy at ATF is also, in part, what leads to www.CleanUpATF.org.

Backstory:

After Vido becomes the SAC in Louisville and after he did everything in his power to destroy the reputation and career of Vince, Vince comes into first-hand, validated and confirmed death threat information that targets Vido and members of Vido's family. Vince does what Vince does, what anyone of character would do - he reports it with urgency.

That information leads to an immediate full blown SRT response to Vido and his family, a full blown investigation of the threats, etc., etc., etc. The threats are contained and life returns to normal for Vido, threat put to rest. Unfortunately not so much for Vince.

Vince is put on the polygraph to determine how he got the information, if he invented it, etc., etc., etc. As would be expected he passes the poly with no issues.

Conclusion:

I think most of us would expect some type of response from the person who's life and family was protected. An acknowledgement, a thank you, something. Not an award or a medal or a trophy. Maybe just an email or text that said thank you intervening on behalf of me and my family to report your information and protect our lives. Maybe a message from someone of authority at ATF to recognized that Vince saved the life of a fellow agent - the life of an SES SAC who had done everything in his power to ruin Vince, the very person who stepped up to protect the SAC and his families well being.

You all know the last line. Nothing. Crickets. Silence.

Vince is the guy they want to fire for alleged "lack of candor". Vince I have said this to you privately but I will say it publicly also, I can not wait for ATF to hand you your gun and badge back and restore your employment so that you can give it back to them in retirement on your terms. Hard times right now my brutha but you will survive and win.

If there is one single line of challenge or discrepancy to these statements please contact me publicly or privately to enlighten me on what I don't know or understand. Every bit of that story is accurate.

When people hear about Vince or see him on TV and feel that he is disgruntled or malcontent, think about this little story, what he has been put through, and how you personally would have responded if you had spent any time in his shoes.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users