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#1 Doc Holiday

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:33 AM

CHECK THIS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
This was contributed by a very loyal and focused CUATF member. Although it is NOT precedent setting, it is RELEVANT to dozens of actions currently and in the past conducted by a corrupt CCO at ATF. Read closely. Indefinite suspensions are AGAINST THE LAW.

http://www.mspb.gov/...ication=ACROBAT

#2 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:31 PM

More Agents should consider how FLEOA spends their dues. Anyone ever see their budget and expenditures. How much they compensate their attorney and how his salary is generated. How much they spend on there annual conference. They have become a tool of management.


ProConfesso - I wish you would explain exactly how FLEOA spends their dues and how their atty's salary is generated. I think most would be quite surprised and angry if they knew. Minimally, they could save themselves 150 bucks.

#3 sierra donaven

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:07 PM

Greetings Comrades,

Today I "heard" that Manager S/A Fuzzy Zellers has been appointed the new Bureau Deciding Official. If this information is correct, I believe this is a story of which we all can relate:

Back in 1989, Agent Zellers, assigned to Toledo, Ohio, assisted the Detroit Field Division in an undercover purchase of a machine-gun from a subject having residence in the Toledo area. This particular operation was part of a large scale firearms trafficking investigation, and bureau headquarters' project conducted by the Detroit Field Division to which I was assigned coordinator. From logistics planning, end of the transaction and later, arrest of the subject, S/A Zellers' assistance was supportive and even then he demonstrated leadership. He got behind the bureau's mission and he got behind the Detroit Field Division.

The titles may be different, the pay scale too, whether pants, skirt, or BDUs, we really are all the same, and needing the same things to get our jobs done, and one of those things critical to success and a necessity is support. Can you recall a time when you requested support only to be met with a glare, scatter, or excuse? Can you recall a time when others worked alongside you in confidence and respect. Now that BDO Zellers ties the laces in his shoes much tighter, he has too, he too in turn needs support as he has extended I am sure countless occasions such as that in 1989. When we all support each other everyone wins, it keeps us in top shape mentally and emotionally, and when we have to fight for it, it dashes self-esteem, potential, pits us against one another and grows weeds in our hearts of bitterness, anger, and depression.

DD Brandon and/or the person(s) responsible for S/A Zellers latest appointment, you must know that each just step you take forwards the agency, and morale, integrity, equality, honor and professionalism rises however slight to the benefit of ALL.

Peace and Goodwill,

Comrade Sierra Donaven

TRUTH, JUSTICE & PEACE
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH - Madame Blavatsky, Theosophy


#4 sierra donaven

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:04 PM

Greetings Comrades,

Today, local media outlets covered stories relating to crimes involving the use of firearms resulting in homicides and shootings of "children."

One headline reads, "Mom told boy, 14, not to hang with friends; he shoots her to death, family says" (Detroit Free Press 2/27/2012)

Another reads, "2 teens held in carjacking spree, 6-year-old's shooting will be charged as adults" (Detroit Free Press @/27/2012)

Another reads, "Funeral today for 9-month-old killed in Detroit shooting" (Detroit Free Press 2/27/2012)

And another reads, "Ohio high school bloodshed: 1 dead, 4 wounded as gunman opens fire in cafeteria" (Detroit Free Press 2/27/2012


I posted this today because at times a pause from the internal challenges at ATF and within the Justice Department is worthy allowing for self reflection, viewing your present status in life and the lives and plight of others near and far. Often moments such as these, fill our hearts with gratitude for the good in our lives and moves us to to be of good will in all our endeavors and where and when opportunity presents.

Comrades each time firearms are taken off the streets because of your efforts, each time your support staff assists in your investigations, and each time your supervisors signs off on your reports, there is good will on so many levels. A good will to better the lives of citizens in the communities in which you have mission, a good will by your support staff that the dots you connect are accurately aligned and good will by your supervisor backing your work.

In the above headlines, what if you or a family member was subject? The ATF family would be in mourning, dealing with loss and feelings of anger and revenge.

The power of good will is a force that unites, heals, reaches out, stands up, and makes a difference for betterment whether it be person, place or thing. It builds up, and restores the torn, broken and even discarded.

TRUTH, JUSTICE & PEACE
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH - Madame Blavatsky, Theosophy


#5 Guest_madea_*

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:27 PM

Squirrel watching continues...

At taxpayers expense, and due to the inexplicable lengthy process in determining what "crimes" I have to be punished for (because we are all guilty according to the PRB) I have began an at home experiment. My premise is simply this...given the choice between salted peanuts and unsalted peanuts placed side by side on a bare concrete patio, which peanut will the squirrel first choose. We all know that both piles of peanuts will be consumed, but which one first?

I'll take some votes if you would like to respond. I could work out an Excel spreadsheet and possibly post some pics on this site.

I have no other ATF assignments and my phone seldom rings from anyone checking on my status at home. I have determined that persons I thought were my friends could really care less if I'm at work or not, even though I made it a point to say hello to them everyday and ask them about their families.

My days are relegated to waiting on a call from my lawyer to tell me that the BDO has some kind of decision for me. I can't apply for another job or quit this job because of the old "quit in lieu of being fired" trickbag. GOT TO LOVE IT!

OK. Sorry to all you salty veterans for whining this morning. I'll just keep my big old head up and cross my fingers that my phone will ring on Monday. It's my own hell and I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone.

I always have the squirrels and the endless possibilities of other squirrel experiments...so stay tuned...same squirrel channel, same squirrel time...

SQUIRREL FACT OF THE DAY (brought to you by FLEOA, "If you think they will help you, think again")
Ground and tree squirrels are typically diurnal, while flying squirrels tend to be nocturnal—except for lactating flying squirrels and their offspring which have a period of diurnality during the summer.



To B Todd Jones:

“it has always been a mystery to me how men can feel themselves honored by the humiliation of their fellow beings”. Mahatma Gandhi

While you are planning these road shows for your own ego, there are many sitting at home waiting for the honor of your decision regarding the allegations against them and they sit there humiliated.


#6 Guest_leaderofthetards_*

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:39 AM

With all due respect Doc, FLEOA has been part of the problem. FLEOA has stood back and done very little at best and in some cases gotten too cozy with the OCC and harmed some of the very agents they were supposed to be representing. I do however agree that everyone should send in their issues/concerns to the panel members so that management is put on notice. I hope that FLEOA does become part of the solution. It's about time.

This has nothing to do with FLEOA and everything to do with ATF. Focus on those responsible for tanking our Bureau. FLEOA is just a small part of any solution. YOU are the ones who will fix this place. Focus on DIRECT communications to Brandon, et al. Do NOT let the new leadership say WE DIDN'T KNOW.



#7 Doc Holiday

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:20 AM

This has nothing to do with FLEOA and everything to do with ATF. Focus on those responsible for tanking our Bureau. FLEOA is just a small part of any solution. YOU are the ones who will fix this place. Focus on DIRECT communications to Brandon, et al. Do NOT let the new leadership say WE DIDN'T KNOW.

#8 ProConfesso

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:50 AM

More Agents should consider how FLEOA spends their dues. Anyone ever see their budget and expenditures. How much they compensate their attorney and how his salary is generated. How much they spend on there annual conference. They have become a tool of management.

#9 Jaime3

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:29 PM

And that's a great example of Fraud, Waste, and Abuse.

I'm sure this is the kind of FWA that has been ignored and allowed because of his position. How corrupt.

Madea, you know I have shared with you some great examples of my own, ones i tried sharing with Managers and Supervisors who ignored it.

#10 Guest_madea_*

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:00 PM

Kay is there more to this?


Yes, I personally observed Larry Ford's shitania brown corvette parked in the federal garage in Chicago. Apparently it was being stored there. Now, how do I know it was Larry's? First the agent I was defending told me it was his. Secondly, the license plates were Ohio and they were vanity plates. They spelled out something with 'rockets'. Larry Ford played football for the University of Toledo. The name of the team is The Rockets. Also, there was no City of Chicago sticker on the front windshield which is required by law. It is my understanding that Larry got nailed for the same thing, not registering his car in Va when he was in D.C. I saw a pattern of behavior. Another agent told me he had at least one, possibly two personal vehicles parked in the federal garage. And here's the kicker, Larry has never denied this. My understanding is that this is called conversion of government property for personal use. I welcome Larry producing receipts for parking places or car storage.

And this ends tonight's story hour with Medea.

#11 SilentObserver

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:29 PM

I tried for months to get FLEOA onboard with fast n furious until I was fed up with their BS!! .Now I know why I never renewed my membership!

Thank u Leader for sharing this information. It surely confirms the smoke and mirrors theory!



#12 retired1811

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:15 PM

Tom, Medea has been waiting for a very long time for that investigation on Larry Ford parking his personal vehicles in the government garage while in Chicago. When is that going to happen? Julie Torres, have you gotten around to it yet?


Kay is there more to this?

#13 SilentObserver

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:50 PM

By Sari Horwitz President Obama’s fiscal 2013 budget proposes $36.5 billion in spending for the Justice Department, an increase of $1.9 billion from the previous year.

More than $700 million is proposed to combat financial, mortgage and other fraud, an increase of $55 million over the previous budget. The proposed funding would go toward more FBI agents, criminal prosecutors, civil litigators, in-house investigators and forensic accountants to investigate and prosecute financial fraud.

Noting a continuing downward trend in violent crime rates, the administration is proposing a slight decrease, to $12.4 billion, in funding for the FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the U.S. Marshals.

The ATF, which has been battered this year with allegations of “gunwalking” to Mexico in a botched firearms operation out of its Phoenix division, would have its funding cut by $12 million. ATF officials and agents have long complained about a lack of resources.

An additional $138 million cut in law enforcement operations would come from “savings and administrative efficiencies.” Task forces with similar missions would be considered for consolidation or elimination, and gang and drug intelligence and operations would be streamlined, reduced or eliminated.

Justice Department officials cite “an alarming rise in intellectual property crimes” as the reason behind $40 million devoted to identifying and defeating intellectual property criminals, an increase of $5 million over the 2012 budget. Federal officials have already shut down 350 Web sites engaged in the illegal sale and distribution of counterfeit goods and copyrighted works, such as the recent <a target="_blank" href="http://www.washingto....html">shutdown of the popular Megaupload Web site. The budget proposes a $378 million cut in the Office of Justice Programs, Office of Community Oriented Policing Services and the Office on Violence Against Women.

The increase in funding for investigating and prosecuting financial crimes comes one week after the historic $25 billion settlement between federal and state officials and five of the nation’s largest banks to provide relief to distressed homeowners in the wake of the foreclosure crisis. It also comes weeks after Obama announced the creation of a task force aimed at investigating the shoddy mortgage-lending practices that contributed to the financial collapse of 2008.



#14 Guest_madea_*

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:38 AM

Tom, Medea has been waiting for a very long time for that investigation on Larry Ford parking his personal vehicles in the government garage while in Chicago. When is that going to happen? Julie Torres, have you gotten around to it yet?

#15 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:43 PM

Trust me on this, I know what your are going through. You are doing the worse thing possible by sitting and waiting for the phone to ring. You are in the middle of a classic psychological operation in which you have no control over. Expect bad news usually around holidays so that it has max impact. The intent is to get you to quit. Put the "big boy" pants on and pull yourself out of the funk and do not give up. If you have family, make good use of this time with them. Volunteer at school, church, take classes, travel and especially GET TO THE GYM. DO NOT sit home and wait because the depression becomes worse.


Ditto everything desertrat just said. And call me. I have a little happy for you.

#16 1desertrat

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:33 PM

Squirrel watching continues...

At taxpayers expense, and due to the inexplicable lengthy process in determining what "crimes" I have to be punished for (because we are all guilty according to the PRB) I have began an at home experiment. My premise is simply this...given the choice between salted peanuts and unsalted peanuts placed side by side on a bare concrete patio, which peanut will the squirrel first choose. We all know that both piles of peanuts will be consumed, but which one first?

I'll take some votes if you would like to respond. I could work out an Excel spreadsheet and possibly post some pics on this site.

I have no other ATF assignments and my phone seldom rings from anyone checking on my status at home. I have determined that persons I thought were my friends could really care less if I'm at work or not, even though I made it a point to say hello to them everyday and ask them about their families.

My days are relegated to waiting on a call from my lawyer to tell me that the BDO has some kind of decision for me. I can't apply for another job or quit this job because of the old "quit in lieu of being fired" trickbag. GOT TO LOVE IT!

OK. Sorry to all you salty veterans for whining this morning. I'll just keep my big old head up and cross my fingers that my phone will ring on Monday. It's my own hell and I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone.

I always have the squirrels and the endless possibilities of other squirrel experiments...so stay tuned...same squirrel channel, same squirrel time...

SQUIRREL FACT OF THE DAY (brought to you by FLEOA, "If you think they will help you, think again")
Ground and tree squirrels are typically diurnal, while flying squirrels tend to be nocturnal—except for lactating flying squirrels and their offspring which have a period of diurnality during the summer.



Trust me on this, I know what your are going through. You are doing the worse thing possible by sitting and waiting for the phone to ring. You are in the middle of a classic psychological operation in which you have no control. Expect bad news usually around holidays so that it has max impact. The intent is to wear you down mentally, emotionally and financially so you quit. Put the "big boy" pants on and pull yourself out of the funk and do not give up. If you have family, make good use of this time with them. Volunteer at the kids school, church, take classes, travel and especially GET TO THE GYM. DO NOT sit home and wait because the depression becomes worse. Find a way to embrace the fact that they are paying you a large amount of money to stay home and do whatever you want. Forget about noble ideas and the greater good of tax payers etc. Focus on your family and mental health which I know is a full time job right now. Don't count on or trust your former fellow agents because you are now tainted and they will run to protect themselves. Find things outside LE and ATF to fill your days. Dig in for the long haul that may take months or even years.

#17 Jaime3

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 09:57 AM

Although I am so sorry to hear about your isolated waiting process through your "Squirrel Chronicles," I am placing bets on the salted nuts!

Please keep your head up because that kind of isolation can be beyond depressing.

They are going to take their time because they know it's getting to you. That's their goal.

And for the people who turned their back and not reach out to you, shame on them!

#18 Hilltopper

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 07:51 AM

?

#19 Jaime3

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:45 AM

Thank u Leader for sharing this information. It surely confirms the smoke and mirrors theory!

#20 Guest_leaderofthetards_*

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:25 AM

Letter from Brian Hoback:



All, I was recently appointed to be a participant on the “Field Agent Advisory Panel” (FAAP), that was initiated through a request by ATF FLEOA representatives while meeting with the Director and Deputy Director a couple of months ago. This panel was agreed to by both the Director and Deputy Director with the goal of addressing issues facing ATF overall. Things like organizational trust, discipline and morale are some of the areas. There will be a more formal explanation of the purpose of the panel coming out “shortly” I’m told via ATF broadcast and the Web Portal. We are schedule to go up to HQ in early March for our first initial meeting. I wanted to get a head start on this project. A memo, addressed to the panel members from the Deputy Director, was sent out on February 1, 2012 to the SACs and Division Chiefs of ATF advising them that this panel was going to begin its work.

I view my purpose as voicing your concerns, not necessarily mine, but yours. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll offer my opinions as well, but what is more important to me is your opinions and concerns. I would like for you to write to me as to what would yourtop five areas of concern be in addressing issues facing ATF. They can be anything you want, just please remember to keep them in the arena of how they affect ATF overall. For example, some of my concerns might be catalogued under Promotion Issues, i.e. does our system truly promote those qualified or does it promote those willing to move? Another item might be, Mission issues, i.e. why did ATF change its position regarding clear decisions concerning the explosives jurisdiction, (we were once told it was “all or nothing” meaning we wanted explosives and fire) does the current directive from DOJ really clarify who does what? 99% of explosives incidents are non-terrorism related, but the FBI decides who investigates what. Personally, I know longer want to be half pregnant, but you all may have a differing view, I want to hear your views and articulate your messages. These are just a couple of ideas off of the top of my head. Nothing is set in stone, I just want to hear from you all.

There are 18 people assigned to this task. I’m sure many of them will be doing what I’m doing either via email or via the phone, I’m just trying to get a better understanding of what all you are facing and wanting addressed. Feel free to list your top five and a short explanation and I’ll try to come up with a comprehensive list as best I can. Also, please advise me of possible solutions as well. If you’ll notice, I have decided to just start with those of you involved with a Fire and Explosives expertise (CFIs, CESs, NRT, etc). I’m not limiting my attention to that only, I just decided to start with you all first.

Take care,

Brian





With all due respect Brian, and I’m sure your intentions are good, but with the destruction going on right now to so many employee’s lives, the tanked morale, and the continuing management antics that left Kelvin Crenshaw in place, I don’t believe talk of jurisdictional issues and fairness in promotions are likely to be of much help right now in improving the environment at ATF. My suggestion would be to stop the ship from sinking before ringing the dinner bell.

#21 Guest_leaderofthetards_*

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:24 AM

Letter from Brian Hoback:



All, I was recently appointed to be a participant on the “Field Agent Advisory Panel” (FAAP), that was initiated through a request by ATF FLEOA representatives while meeting with the Director and Deputy Director a couple of months ago. This panel was agreed to by both the Director and Deputy Director with the goal of addressing issues facing ATF overall. Things like organizational trust, discipline and morale are some of the areas. There will be a more formal explanation of the purpose of the panel coming out “shortly” I’m told via ATF broadcast and the Web Portal. We are schedule to go up to HQ in early March for our first initial meeting. I wanted to get a head start on this project. A memo, addressed to the panel members from the Deputy Director, was sent out on February 1, 2012 to the SACs and Division Chiefs of ATF advising them that this panel was going to begin its work.

I view my purpose as voicing your concerns, not necessarily mine, but yours. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll offer my opinions as well, but what is more important to me is your opinions and concerns. I would like for you to write to me as to what would yourtop five areas of concern be in addressing issues facing ATF. They can be anything you want, just please remember to keep them in the arena of how they affect ATF overall. For example, some of my concerns might be catalogued under Promotion Issues, i.e. does our system truly promote those qualified or does it promote those willing to move? Another item might be, Mission issues, i.e. why did ATF change its position regarding clear decisions concerning the explosives jurisdiction, (we were once told it was “all or nothing” meaning we wanted explosives and fire) does the current directive from DOJ really clarify who does what? 99% of explosives incidents are non-terrorism related, but the FBI decides who investigates what. Personally, I know longer want to be half pregnant, but you all may have a differing view, I want to hear your views and articulate your messages. These are just a couple of ideas off of the top of my head. Nothing is set in stone, I just want to hear from you all.

There are 18 people assigned to this task. I’m sure many of them will be doing what I’m doing either via email or via the phone, I’m just trying to get a better understanding of what all you are facing and wanting addressed. Feel free to list your top five and a short explanation and I’ll try to come up with a comprehensive list as best I can. Also, please advise me of possible solutions as well. If you’ll notice, I have decided to just start with those of you involved with a Fire and Explosives expertise (CFIs, CESs, NRT, etc). I’m not limiting my attention to that only, I just decided to start with you all first.

Take care,

Brian




#22 VINCENT A CEFALU

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 10:43 AM

Welcome to MY world. Two and a half years in a nice Office watching TV, UNDISPUTED. Then home doing same. But at least Horace, Crenshaw, Thomasson, Ford, Hoover, Chait, JT etc etc are all being valued leaders regardless of their ethical and criminal actions. Gotta love the new ATF.

Thanks VInce. I guess I may be home a while.


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#23 Hilltopper

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:22 AM

Thanks VInce. I guess I may be home a while.

#24 VINCENT A CEFALU

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:21 AM

This practice (of firing everybody they could), surfaced after ATF had so poorly robbed the silverware drawer that our budget was so salary top heavy that our LEADERSHIP, (and I use this term loosely) decided it would be smart to cut our most senior and experienced employees. Not reduce the number of GS 15 bosses or SES bosses so as to keep whats left of our experience. Not remove the unnecessary managers who are supervising managers who are supervising managers. Not get back to letting GS 13s do what they have always done. Lets promote as many as fast as we can. If their program failed and cost the agency millions, Promote them out. If there is documentary evidence of mismanagement, abuse, corruption etc etc , move them out of the danger zone and RE-promote them. The oath we all took only is applied to the field, and Edgar and his boys are ALL SES or GS 15s now, Multiple ASACS in Divisions where they only need ONE. Forget the fact that we have only a handful of 20 year agents who are still on the job WORKING in non managerial positions.Chait denied it when I confronted him and Melson face to face at their "we did nothing wrong in fast and furious" visit to the San Francisco field division. Denied any knowledge of tanking our senior agents nation wide. So when they couldn't reduce the work force fast enough, they(being our corrupt executive staff supported by Chief counsels Office, started firing every agent they could find for every minor infraction they could find. You notice NONE of those we have collectively exposed for heinous abuses of ethics and integrity were ever fired. THAT, is exactly why hearings are coming and maybe from more committees than ONE. A simple review of our tanked and failed programs, in which the manager was then promoted will mandate accountability. F and F, is a SMALL chunk of what has been allowed to go on. Had Sullivan or Melson listened, acted and NOT been politicians, this never would have happened. We cant clean up our house behind closed doors until the WHOLE family is behind those doors. You are NOT on admin leave because DOJ policy does not allow you to be for more than 80 hrs. So you are being paid with Salary AND benefits more than 200,000 a yr. to NOT work until they try to figure out how to undo the mess they have made. Multiply that by all those who are and HAVE BEEN in the same status, believe this Congress and the tax payers are not happy. Badigian sat home for yrs, Jauquez home for yrs. This is insane.This ain't rocket science.

I'm about to pass the 5 month mark sitting at home after receiving my proposal for removal. I have no assignments and basically spend my days waiting to hear from the Bureau Deciding Official (BDO).

I have been feeding a squirrel out back. The behaviors of this squirrel is something I'm sure the TAXPAYERS would love to hear about as I am getting paid to sit at home while who knows what is going on with my case... if it has even been looked at yet.

Is there anything else I can do to speed this up? Why is this taking sooo long? I understand that G.Elaine Smith "unexpectedly" retired, new BDO Todd Martin is on another "assignment", and Erika Ritt (Chicago Field Division counsel) is the acting BDO. The only glimmer of hope is that she is not sitting at HQ in DC and hopefully will make independent decisions.

I was told by a wise Cleanupatf member that there is a DOJ policy that prohibits someone being placed on administrative leave for an extended period of time without the approval of the Attorney General. I guess I'm on administrative leave. Who knows. It appears that I was never told anything other than to stay at home and record 8 hours per day on WebTA.

Are people really getting fired right now in the face of extreme scrutiny by Congress and the media. Anybody know of an agent who got fired lately? All I'm hearing is that everyone is getting proposals for removal and it has been mitigated down to as little as 14 days. (Source: 3 agents I spoke with personally) Of course I'm talking about street agents not management.

Any info or remarks would be greatly appreciated....


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#25 Jaime3

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

I guess I won't hold my breath in waiting for the creation of, "Iluvmyatfgroupsupervisor.org" website.

If such a site was created, I'm sure it's created with lack of Integrity, considering the lack of Integrity of some Supervisors.

I'm sure all Supervisors within ATF aren't the same.
But when a Supervisor witnesses corrupt, illegal, or just plain bad behavior and turns a blind eye because of not wanting to "Gamble with their family/career," can they really carry the label of "Good Supervisor?"

I'm sure the answer is NO.

And I will love for someone to point out in the Oath where it states different.




If anyone wants to start "iluvmyatfgroupsupervisor.org," then please go ahead. In nearly fifteen years, I, however, have encountered far more group supervisors ASAC's and SAC's who have committed acts of nonfeasance, malfeasance and misfeascance than not, and as long as the scale tips that far to that extreme, you're probably going to "hear" only one tune on a site calling for the clean-up of ATF.

No doubt, this site has an agenda, and if you don't like the agenda, you're free NOT to visit it and you're free to start your own agenda-driven forum.



#26 abteilung

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:01 PM

If anyone wants to start "iluvmyatfgroupsupervisor.org," then please go ahead. In nearly fifteen years, I, however, have encountered far more group supervisors ASAC's and SAC's who have committed acts of nonfeasance, malfeasance and misfeascance than not, and as long as the scale tips that far to that extreme, you're probably going to "hear" only one tune on a site calling for the clean-up of ATF.

No doubt, this site has an agenda, and if you don't like the agenda, you're free NOT to visit it and you're free to start your own agenda-driven forum.

#27 Swampdog

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:17 AM

Patriot....you're wasting your breath here. Only one song plays on this station.

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 06:44 PM

Patriot, get over it. Anyone who read that knows she was not talking about every single supervisor in ATF. Do you really think that she was saying that every supervisor screwed a subordinate and got their job? You can't be that insecure. Get over yourself. Your insulted? You ought to be insulted by the conduct of your peers not the posting to a website. If not for the good supervisors ATF would have stalled years ago? What kind of statement is that? Let me bring you up to date, the agency did stall years ago. Name one supervisor, just one, who stepped up and stuck their neck out to go against the political correctness of ATF and do something. Just one! One single GD supervisor who took a stand and bucked the system and took a risk and spoke up and made some change? Just one. Name him or her. Tell me what they did that caused change. Not one. Agents had to do it.


.


Patriot, I hope you are reading the ever growing list of bad managers in the "Grapevine" thread. We are still waiting for your list.


#29 Guest_leaderofthetards_*

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:40 PM

I'm sorry, I should not have left out Carlos Canino out of the conversation. Short of Pete and Carlos, I can't think of any other supervisor who has stuck his or her neck out like those two have. Thank you Pete and Carlos for what you have done. You make us proud and give us hope.




I think Rene Jaquez was a supervisor also. What's become glaringly obvious to me is that here we have three managers, Pete, Carlos, & Rene, who can't even stand up and say, "hey guys, we're ATF, we really shouldn't be running guns down into Mexico" without being retaliated against. And to my knowledge all three have been. Now what hope does an agent have of having a supervisor stand up for him/her when it's just your run-of-the-mill upper management abuse where an agent's career, family, health are destroyed?
Still waiting for someone to name one manager who stood up and didn't get taken out.......anyone?

#30 reddog

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

I'm sorry, I should not have left out Carlos Canino out of the conversation. Short of Pete and Carlos, I can't think of any other supervisor who has stuck his or her neck out like those two have. Thank you Pete and Carlos for what you have done. You make us proud and give us hope.

#31 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:46 PM

Thanks reddog. That certainly makes the point. I can't think of a single manager who stepped up to do what was right and then did NOT become a target. I hope someone can name one. Surely there is just one out there who stuck his or her neck out and didn't have their career ruined. Patriot can you name one? Can anyone?

In my case I had two supervisors stand up for me and tell the truth. One was Vernon Park who was quickly suspended and one was Kay Kubicki. Vernon won his case and retired in disgust and I think we all know how well the leaders at ATF embraced Kay's telling of the truth and where her career went from there. Hell, she's still getting hung up on by these wonderful leaders. You'd think that in all these years someone in management would have listened to her and done something, just once anyway. Nope, not one. Not once. We'll see if Brandon listens to her or does as all his predecessors did before him and sees no evil....hears no evil....

Thank you for bringing Pete up reddog and thank you Pete for doing the right thing knowing what would follow. That puts you in a very small but very admired class. Well, ok, THEY don't admire you... but we do.



Only one currently comes to mind - Peter Forcelli. Longhorn, I get your point, but please do not look over what Pete did and the price he had and continues to pay.



#32 reddog

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:12 PM

Only one currently comes to mind - Peter Forcelli. Longhorn, I get your point, but please do not look over what Pete did and the price he had and continues to pay.

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 11:33 AM

Patriot, get over it. Anyone who read that knows she was not talking about every single supervisor in ATF. Do you really think that she was saying that every supervisor screwed a subordinate and got their job? You can't be that insecure. Get over yourself. Your insulted? You ought to be insulted by the conduct of your peers not the posting to a website. If not for the good supervisors ATF would have stalled years ago? What kind of statement is that? Let me bring you up to date, the agency did stall years ago. Name one supervisor, just one, who stepped up and stuck their neck out to go against the political correctness of ATF and do something. Just one! One single GD supervisor who took a stand and bucked the system and took a risk and spoke up and made some change? Just one. Name him or her. Tell me what they did that caused change. Not one. Agents had to do it.


.

Sandy

Your posting is insulting and indicitve of a person with an axe to grind. There many, competant, professional and well qualified managers in ATF. Your comment falls to painting everyone with a broad brush. Good supervisors fight everyday to support their people and the mission of ATF. If it were not for them, this agency would have stalled in the water years ago. I acknowledge that we have a broken management system and that at the senior executive level, many of them failed and lost site of their duties and responsibilities, but it is unfair to make blanket statements such as yours.It only demeans you. You should take your personal battle elsewhere.



#34 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 08:48 AM

Patriot - I realize there are good people in management who do indeed try to stand up for their people. I personally know and admire some of them. Many have fought for what was right and decent only to be retaliated against horribly and had their lives destroyed. They are my heros. The ones who stand up, not for themselves, but for others. To pretend that they (the good managers) are anything but the minority is out of step with the reality of the environment at ATF. We all know how difficult it is for these people to advance and that their hands are tied by the reprisals they know will be immediate if they step too far out of line.

Also, this is not my personal battle. My battle with ATF ended long ago. My "axe to grind' is that after all these years, not only have things not improved, they are gotten progressively worse with the additional corrupt SESers and attorneys littered throughout the agency. You, like many I'm sure, have no idea how deep this problem is. I'm reading these cases, listening to these employees, and I know what they are going through. THAT is my motivation. They inspire and motivate me everyday.

Let's take Tom Brandon as an example. I have heard from many what a good and decent man he is, but does anyone really believe he has the ability to do anything other than what Holder and Jones tell him to do? Really? How many times have ATF employees looked to a new leader with hope only to be hit in the face with the very ugly reality that there is no hope? To reduce my efforts to help those fighting the corruption within ATF as a 'personal axe to grind' is the insult here. These cases going before Tom right now are very easy ones for him to remedy if they let him and I promise you I will be the first one to acknowledge it if he does. We'll see.

btw - this site is called CleanUPATF. Cleaning up ATF will not be possible without at first admitting the scope of the problems. These problems that you yourself describe as a "broken management system". That's a pretty broad brush no? And these good managers fighting for their people? We can't even publicly acknowledge them without putting them in the crosshairs. Ask them. Ask the good managers if they want their names mentioned on this forum or anywhere else recognizing them for doing the right and decent thing. I bet they would give you a big resounding "HELL NO". How sad is that?




Sandy

Your posting is insulting and indicitve of a person with an axe to grind. There many, competant, professional and well qualified managers in ATF. Your comment falls to painting everyone with a broad brush. Good supervisors fight everyday to support their people and the mission of ATF. If it were not for them, this agency would have stalled in the water years ago. I acknowledge that we have a broken management system and that at the senior executive level, many of them failed and lost site of their duties and responsibilities, but it is unfair to make blanket statements such as yours.It only demeans you. You should take your personal battle elsewhere.



#35 Patriot

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 07:52 AM

Sandy

Your posting is insulting and indicitve of a person with an axe to grind. There many, competant, professional and well qualified managers in ATF. Your comment falls to painting everyone with a broad brush. Good supervisors fight everyday to support their people and the mission of ATF. If it were not for them, this agency would have stalled in the water years ago. I acknowledge that we have a broken management system and that at the senior executive level, many of them failed and lost site of their duties and responsibilities, but it is unfair to make blanket statements such as yours.It only demeans you. You should take your personal battle elsewhere.

#36 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 07:21 AM

We have been looking through the personnel actions and other material that you have sent trying to figure out what it takes to get promoted into ATF management. So far, extra marital affairs, sex with subordinates, domestic violence, and ‘borrowing money’ without asking first keep showing up. Keep those cards and letters coming folks.

Next project is trying to figure out the criteria for hiring attorneys for the Office of Chief Counsel.


So sorry everyone....I forgot to mention the one thing above all else that will help you get into the SES club - reprisal, reprisal, reprisal, while at the same making sure that you not only agree with everything the current SES members say, you agree enthusiastically.

#37 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 07:37 PM

We have been looking through the personnel actions and other material that you have sent trying to figure out what it takes to get promoted into ATF management. So far, extra marital affairs, sex with subordinates, domestic violence, and ‘borrowing money’ without asking first keep showing up. Keep those cards and letters coming folks.

Next project is trying to figure out the criteria for hiring attorneys for the Office of Chief Counsel.


#38 Hilltopper

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 04:31 PM

?

#39 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 07:19 AM

I am posting the following on behalf of many very special, but disgusted agents in the field and for one in particular with much love and admiration. Bless you dear friend:


From the ATF intraweb video of the interview with new Deputy Director, employees learn of an extra $39 million dollars added to the ATF budget just a few weeks ago!  Meanwhile ATF has already bought out people eligible to retire with a government buy out of $25,000 each, as long as they left by Nov 30. And numerous people have retired before and since that time, based on normal attrition, finding outside employment, or they are just fed up with the agency's disastrous problems brought on by unprofessional managers. The White House advised just 9 days after Ken Melson had his 4th of July chat with Issa and Grassley, that ATF needed a 13% cut in their budget immediately. Hence the buy out. Now ATF gets a sudden boost with $39 million extra!

Todays shiny trinket: The new acting Director says all those with an Outstanding Evaluation will receive a small cash award in appreciation of their services.
Just how much were those SES cash awards, Billy? Mark? Bill? William? Kelvin? Obviously Kelvin’s wasn't enough to keep him from "borrowing extra" without asking.

Shiny Trinkets... Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon: YOU MUST MAKE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES:
-Revamp the entire Chief Counsel's Office. Start recognizing and acknowledging their direct involvement with everything involving ATF decisions, several of which have been improper, unethical, and potentially criminal.  Have DOJ OIG investigate just the complaints against Eleanor Loos for starters.
-Ask Newell how much the Phoenix Field Division Atty was involved in his decision making?  
-Ask the various HQ personnel involved with Fast and Furious which ATF CCO personnel were present and advising during the multitude of discussions in 2009, 2010, 2011.
-Now revamp IAD to a Division level. CCO and IAD must have no contact during ongoing investigations, ever.  Use retired GS 13 agents as contracted IA investigators.

Immediately institute a verbal policy (tell employees by intraweb video) from this time forward ATF will abide by all the current policies regarding investigations by Congress, OIG, and IA.  Anyone being investigated will be placed on Admin Leave or Desk Duty with no badge, credentials, firearm , GOV, or authority while any official investigation is ongoing.  This means no special desk, like the desk Chaite is hiding behind in Sterling, VA.

Shiny Trinkets will not rebuild the broken morale within the agency.  Much of what has occurred has become a joke.  Senior employees shake their heads in disgust, disappointment, outrage, anger, and disbelief. The largest majority of ATF employees are hardworking, dedicated, proud, responsible, family oriented, honest, and self- sacrificing.  These people are proud of the whistleblowers and want Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon to personally thank John Dodson for standing up and speaking out. Shake his hand. Give him an SES bonus award as he showed true leadership in the face of strong adversity which jeopardized his career. And let’s not forget Renee Jaquez who was forced to retire due to the unnecessary stress and harrassment of being the whistleblower who brought SA John Dodson’s ignored protests over F&F to the attention of the media. ATF managers blatantly made efforts to destroy Rene’s career with lies, a cover-up, a transfer, and ridiculing whispers of incompetence, malcontent, and disgruntled employee.  Losing Renee to early retirement further tarnishes the ATF image from within.  All employees should be so brave, so willing to stop improper actions. It is this type of commitment to duty for which ATF is truly known and respected! Dodson should be recruited to consider becoming a manager, as he has leadership qualities.

When you find yourself going in the wrong direction, make a RIGHT turn.  Time to do everything by the rules, which means applying the rules of conduct to everyone equally.  


Thanks Jaime, however I merely copied/pasted this post. Not my words, but I argee with every bit of it.

#40 Jaime3

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 07:16 AM

Very well said Sandy.

It's just that simple and I hope they get it.

#41 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 07:03 AM

I am posting the following on behalf of many very special, but disgusted agents in the field and for one in particular with much love and admiration. Bless you dear friend:


From the ATF intraweb video of the interview with new Deputy Director, employees learn of an extra $39 million dollars added to the ATF budget just a few weeks ago!  Meanwhile ATF has already bought out people eligible to retire with a government buy out of $25,000 each, as long as they left by Nov 30. And numerous people have retired before and since that time, based on normal attrition, finding outside employment, or they are just fed up with the agency's disastrous problems brought on by unprofessional managers. The White House advised just 9 days after Ken Melson had his 4th of July chat with Issa and Grassley, that ATF needed a 13% cut in their budget immediately. Hence the buy out. Now ATF gets a sudden boost with $39 million extra!

Todays shiny trinket: The new acting Director says all those with an Outstanding Evaluation will receive a small cash award in appreciation of their services.
Just how much were those SES cash awards, Billy? Mark? Bill? William? Kelvin? Obviously Kelvin’s wasn't enough to keep him from "borrowing extra" without asking.

Shiny Trinkets... Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon: YOU MUST MAKE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES:
-Revamp the entire Chief Counsel's Office. Start recognizing and acknowledging their direct involvement with everything involving ATF decisions, several of which have been improper, unethical, and potentially criminal.  Have DOJ OIG investigate just the complaints against Eleanor Loos for starters.
-Ask Newell how much the Phoenix Field Division Atty was involved in his decision making?  
-Ask the various HQ personnel involved with Fast and Furious which ATF CCO personnel were present and advising during the multitude of discussions in 2009, 2010, 2011.
-Now revamp IAD to a Division level. CCO and IAD must have no contact during ongoing investigations, ever.  Use retired GS 13 agents as contracted IA investigators.

Immediately institute a verbal policy (tell employees by intraweb video) from this time forward ATF will abide by all the current policies regarding investigations by Congress, OIG, and IA.  Anyone being investigated will be placed on Admin Leave or Desk Duty with no badge, credentials, firearm , GOV, or authority while any official investigation is ongoing.  This means no special desk, like the desk Chaite is hiding behind in Sterling, VA.

Shiny Trinkets will not rebuild the broken morale within the agency.  Much of what has occurred has become a joke.  Senior employees shake their heads in disgust, disappointment, outrage, anger, and disbelief. The largest majority of ATF employees are hardworking, dedicated, proud, responsible, family oriented, honest, and self- sacrificing.  These people are proud of the whistleblowers and want Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon to personally thank John Dodson for standing up and speaking out. Shake his hand. Give him an SES bonus award as he showed true leadership in the face of strong adversity which jeopardized his career. And let’s not forget Renee Jaquez who was forced to retire due to the unnecessary stress and harrassment of being the whistleblower who brought SA John Dodson’s ignored protests over F&F to the attention of the media. ATF managers blatantly made efforts to destroy Rene’s career with lies, a cover-up, a transfer, and ridiculing whispers of incompetence, malcontent, and disgruntled employee.  Losing Renee to early retirement further tarnishes the ATF image from within.  All employees should be so brave, so willing to stop improper actions. It is this type of commitment to duty for which ATF is truly known and respected! Dodson should be recruited to consider becoming a manager, as he has leadership qualities.

When you find yourself going in the wrong direction, make a RIGHT turn.  Time to do everything by the rules, which means applying the rules of conduct to everyone equally.  


#42 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 05:38 PM

Now I realize I am just the ‘idiot’ running around loose with a keyboard, however on it’s face, the email sent out to all 1811s from FLEOA seems disingenuous at best. Maybe I’m just confused. The way I see it the only way to boost morale is for the leaders at ATF to stop letting their managers terrorize their employees and start applying the same standard to “the field” as they do to these managers. Why don’t they just use Vanessa McLemore and Crenshaw as the new standard for employee discipline? THAT would shoot morale through the roof. This is a VERY easy fix Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon. Your ATF attorneys and your Office of Internal Affairs have all the documentation you need to show you what the problem is. All you have to do is open your eyes and read it.

ATF employees have been ruled by fear for so long and seen so many dirty tricks pulled on themselves and others, why in the world would anyone feel they could speak up and not make themselves the next target? How many times can ATF management find itself pushed against the wall only to then say, “ok, folks we are really really really really going to listen now and we promise you THIS time we will not try to destroy your careers, your families, and your minds. Really.”

Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon, if you truly want to hear from the field, open CleanUp to your employees and simply read. You don’t need the names of the ATF employees posting, you can verify what they say by the documentation you already have.

Mr. Jones, “the field” has been jumping up and down shouting from the rooftops what the problem is. It’s time to SHOW the employees what you are doing. And really, other than bringing back Crenshaw in record time, I’m not SEEING anything.

And Francis, I’m seeing cases where FLEOA has been ineffective at best, but now the agents are supposed to follow you into the lion’s den and trust the new leaders? I’m thinking that may be a hard sell at this point.


I have made corrections to my earlier post. Apparently, the FLEOA letter was not saying that the new leaders would meet with the agents out in the field, but that FLEOA will represent the agents to the new leaders. Um, my question is; FLEOA where have you been and what have you been doing while this nightmare that is ATF has been spinning out of control?

#43 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 05:30 PM

[

#44 Retired and loving it

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:08 AM

Now I realize I am just the ‘idiot’ running around loose with a keyboard, however on it’s face, the email sent out to all 1811s from FLEOA seems disingenuous at best. Maybe I’m just confused. Why would B Todd and Tom Brandon have to spend one penny of tax payer money to fly anywhere to meet with “the field”? The way I see it the only way to boost morale is to stop letting your managers terrorize your employees and start applying the same standard to “the field” as you do to these managers. Why don’t you just use Vanessa McLemore and Crenshaw as the new standard for employee discipline? THAT would shoot morale through the roof. This is a VERY easy fix Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon. Your ATF attorneys and your Office of Internal Affairs have all the documentation you need to show you what the problem is. All you have to do is open your eyes and read it.

ATF employees have been ruled by fear for so long and seen so many dirty tricks pulled on themselves and others, why in the world would anyone feel they could speak up at a meeting and not make themselves the next target? How many times can ATF management find itself pushed against the wall only to then say, “ok, folks we are really really really really going to listen now and we promise you THIS time we will not try to destroy your careers, your families, and your minds. Really.”

Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon, if you truly want to hear from the field, open CleanUp to your employees and simply read. You don’t need the names of the ATF employees posting, you can verify what they say by the documentation you already have. Not one penny spent and not one employee asked to step forward in fear.

Mr. Jones, “the field” has been jumping up and down shouting from the rooftops what the problem is. Sitting around the office discussing internal problems within ATF in front of the very same managers who have been so vicious in their reprisals hardly seems like a sincere solution. It’s time to SHOW the employees what you are doing. And really, other than bringing back Crenshaw in record time, I’m not SEEING anything.

And Francis, I’m seeing cases where FLEOA has been ineffective at best, but now the agents are supposed to follow you into the lion’s den? I’m thinking that may be a hard sell at this point.



"Bring back Crenshaw"? You mean they did not fire him? One more lost opportunity!

#45 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:26 AM

Now I realize I am just the ‘idiot’ running around loose with a keyboard, however on it’s face, the email sent out to all 1811s from FLEOA seems disingenuous at best. Maybe I’m just confused. The way I see it the only way to boost morale is for the leaders at ATF to stop letting their managers terrorize their employees and start applying the same standard to “the field” as they do to these managers. Why don’t they just use Vanessa McLemore and Crenshaw as the new standard for employee discipline? THAT would shoot morale through the roof. This is a VERY easy fix Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon. Your ATF attorneys and your Office of Internal Affairs have all the documentation you need to show you what the problem is. All you have to do is open your eyes and read it.

ATF employees have been ruled by fear for so long and seen so many dirty tricks pulled on themselves and others, why in the world would anyone feel they could speak up and not make themselves the next target? How many times can ATF management find itself pushed against the wall only to then say, “ok, folks we are really really really really going to listen now and we promise you THIS time we will not try to destroy your careers, your families, and your minds. Really.”

Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon, if you truly want to hear from the field, open CleanUp to your employees and simply read. You don’t need the names of the ATF employees posting, you can verify what they say by the documentation you already have.

Mr. Jones, “the field” has been jumping up and down shouting from the rooftops what the problem is. It’s time to SHOW the employees what you are doing. And really, other than bringing back Crenshaw in record time, I’m not SEEING anything.

And Francis, I’m seeing cases where FLEOA has been ineffective at best, but now the agents are supposed to follow you into the lion’s den and trust the new leaders? I’m thinking that may be a hard sell at this point.


#46 2ndGeneration

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:22 PM

Are you with this gaggle of whining malcontents? Do you support the baseless allegations of corruption and thuggery of every person who ever held a supervisory position in this agency? Or are you just poking my ribs with a stick?

Understand I will use truth, common sense mixed with healthy sarcasm to discredit this place. Or until they ban me, which I am certain is forthcoming.


Well not exactly, But I don't need heros like you lecturing me about my failure to respond to some moronic comic strip that some other dufus crafted. And your feelings were hurt over that little pathetic storyboard???? Are you kidding me???What kind of hardcore case producer are you, anyhow????

As for your crusade to clean up CleanUp ATF.org....Have at it...More power to you. Hope you get your gold star, Captain America.

#47 2ndGeneration

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:04 PM

Unfortunately, I am not savvy enough to put into my post the disgusting, demeaning and, quite frankly hurtful, little comic some ass-wipe clown posted. Scroll down to see it. I'm not calling names for the sake of calling names unless I see some garbage like that comic posted. Then I'm going to get ugly.



Yeah, it took me a while. I've been busy putting bad guys in jail and will stay busy doing that. But I will go to sleep late and wake up early to challenge these well-meaning, albeit, misguided folks. They will either respond or be discredited. I'm really not trying to explain anything to anyone. I'm trying to get an explanation for all of this, yet none is coming.

I'm not intending to post on every thread, but I'm not saying I won't get to them all either.


Fine by me. Just do us all a favor and dispense with the sanctimonious bullshit. It's unbecoming to a super agent such as yourself.

#48 2ndGeneration

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:33 PM

Are you an ATF agent? I really hope not. You would put that rag comic on a post? For what? You want to insult me? Are you implying that I "break the law?" Really? Please resign you position immediately if you are with ATF. Do something honorable one time in your life and stand up and take a real stand for your beliefs and resign. If you are not an ATF agent or employee, well, I can't blame you. I mean, there are so many ATF employees on this site filling it with lies and innuendo that I can understand that you may have the wrong impression of ATF.

For all you here on this site. If this post was by an ATF agent and you let it go unchallenged then you are all truly the problem. If it is not an ATF agent and you let it go unchallenged then you are all the problem.

Disgusting. You would insult the employees of this agency with your flippant little disgusting comic? You think you're cute? What a clever little attachment to your post. You must be so proud to insult in such a clever and funny way the hard working people of this agency let alone those that have been killed on the job. Go to the memorial in that place you all call the "funny farm" at 99 NY Ave and tape your little comic on the wall there.


Thank you FOG13. But for you, a 20+ year street agent like myself would have no way to discern shit from shinola. Thank you for explaining everything to all of us.

And it took you how many years before you found out about this site? You have a lot of catching up to do if you intend on posting in each and every thread.

#49 Zorro

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:15 PM

Then help the man out.
The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.

#50 Zorro

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:07 PM

Or maybe no one has any knowledge of his inquiry. I doubt there are many NFA examiners posting or even reading this site. Given that office is maybe 1/2 of 1% of the agency and the average agent or inspector knows little about that operation, could be no one can answer his question with any degree of validity - as you have just demonstrated.
The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.




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