I always thought there was something inherently wrong with the "You Failed but Now You Passed" Ronnie Carter doctrine. This in and of itself was a prohibited personnel action. This afforded a certain group of employees (those that flunked) an unfair advantage in the application process. Where they would not have qualified due to their assessment score, after Acting Director Carter waved his magic wand, they now could apply and be promoted. What kind of sense did that make ?? What kind of crap is that???
Is Acting Director Carter and Acting Director Sullivan still on per diem? It would not surprise me. There have been stranger things that have happened.
I am not sure what material the Executives were passing out to their favorites. I would not be surprised if it were the answers to the test themselves becuase we do have "snakes" at ATF.
I did attend a training session that was put on independently by a minority friend of mine. There were a couple of majorities and the rest were minorities. This training was not about the ATF Assessment Center. This training was about taking an assessment center type test. All of the trainers were from state and local agencies. None of them were from ATF. The only comment made about the ATF Assessment Center was that they were surprised that there was not a written portion to the Assessment Center. This to them was uncommon.
My point here is that if you knew the person who organized the training you would have been invited.
It is more about knowing the person that organized the training than withholding any information from anyone. There were no answers to any ATF questions just information on how to take the test and a couple of scenarios. I can't speak for the other training but I am sure that if they were contracted to go to any other conference that these instructor would go and teach.
No Wonder ATF Management is in Shambles
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, Dec 31 2009 03:33 PM
6 replies to this topic
#1
Thor God of Thunder
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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:16 PM
For Clean Up ATF!
#2
BeenThereDoneThat
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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:22 PM
Author: Marshall Plan replied to comment from Snake Bite
December 27, 2009 8:38 AM
Dear Snake Bite:
I am on your side. Make no bones about it, the system is rotten. We are dysfunctional. Nonetheless, be careful when it comes to race and gender. In spite of powerful new subcultures, the white males still have the numbers when it comes to executives. Frankly there are several clubs taking care of there own. Some groups reward based on being a member of the same ethnicity...while others reward on being of a similar disposition (of course, all of these of gangs compete against each other at the cost of hard working field operators).
Unfortunately none of these "special interests" are looking for character (NOT ONE OF THEM, FOLKS). There is no high ground when it comes to power in this agency. You can't look to the white male, black, Hispanic or female executives in these troubled times...because none of these clubs have effective leaders who represent the whole of the agency and the righteousness of the mission.
Dear Marshall Plan:
You are so right about so many things.
However, these "special interests" are looking for character, WEAK CHARACTER. They seek out ambitious compromised individuals, to fill jobs that are beyond their capabilities.
I remember hearing a supervisor joke outloud: "We are looking for people with strong bodies, and weak minds." This statement turned out to be so true.
#3
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Posted 31 December 2009 - 03:40 PM
Author: Marshall Plan replied to comment from Snake Bite
December 27, 2009 8:38 AM
Dear Snake Bite:
I am on your side. Make no bones about it, the system is rotten. We are dysfunctional. Nonetheless, be careful when it comes to race and gender. In spite of powerful new subcultures, the white males still have the numbers when it comes to executives. Frankly there are several clubs taking care of there own. Some groups reward based on being a member of the same ethnicity...while others reward on being of a similar disposition (of course, all of these of gangs compete against each other at the cost of hard working field operators).
Unfortunately none of these "special interests" are looking for character (NOT ONE OF THEM, FOLKS). There is no high ground when it comes to power in this agency. You can't look to the white male, black, Hispanic or female executives in these troubled times...because none of these clubs have effective leaders who represent the whole of the agency and the righteousness of the mission.
#4
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Posted 31 December 2009 - 03:39 PM
Author: Snake Bite replied to comment from Commander Cody
December 26, 2009 9:29 PM
Commander Cody,
The hard, unfair and typical ATF reason that your brother was not offered the study material to prepare for the testing process is because he is not a member of one of the “protected groups”. He may technically be a protected person because he may be over 40 years of age, but if he is an over 40 white male, he’s considered disposable by the ATF leadership. If he falls into this demographic, your brother will not, under any circumstances be permitted to rock the boat or make a mistake while trying to put bad guys in jail. Rest assured, if he does, he will be used as an example of what the ATF SES club does to “disposable assets.”
Now, if your brother would happen to fall into one of the other protected groups, besides an over 40 white male, well ATF has historically, and apparently currently has continued to break rules, policies and laws in order to persist in painting a non-representative face on the ethnic background, sex and skin color of the majority of the ATF Agents. I’m not trying to start a racial argument, or a sex discrimination argument, but I am stating the obvious. I don’t know what the demographic totals are for all of the ATF Agents, but I think it’s safe to assume that the majority of the ATF Agents are white males. Take a look at a photo lineup of the ATF SES gang and you’ll find that the majority of the SES gang is not made up of white males.
Tell your brother that I have observed ATF operate like this for years and apparently there is nothing the hard working agents can do about it, regardless of their skin color or sex. Unless things change in the next administration, when an ATF three year wonder finally get anointed with their SES appointment they become scared to death to call the baby ugly, because they may get kicked out of the SES fraternity/sorority. Who knows, maybe our next politically connected Director will do what’s right, but tell your brother not to hold his breath.
I have been through a lot of Directors since becoming an ATF Agent and it hasn’t gotten better yet. As a matter of fact, ATF has consistently become a more dreadful place to work. I myself have too much time in to join another Agency. If I only knew in my thirties, what I know now I wouldn’t be fighting the ATF, make up the rules as you go and apply the rules as the SAC wishes game.
My advice to your brother is, if he is still young, apply to other agencies because ATF has not changed in years and as a matter of fact, ATF has gotten worse over the past two decades.
#5
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Posted 31 December 2009 - 03:35 PM
Author: Commander Cody replied to comment from CUATF Webmaster
December 26, 2009 10:32 AM
Anonymous is not wrong. Two "special-interest" organizations allegedly ran study groups for certain ATF agents at those organizations' conferences since at least 2006, allegedly using material supllied by ATF, with the specific intent to get those agents promoted.
Why wasn't this same material made available to ALL agents participating in the promotional process, including my own brother???
#6
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Posted 31 December 2009 - 03:35 PM
Author: Road Warrior replied to comment from CUATF Webmaster
December 24, 2009 5:56 PM
Mr. or Mrs. Anonymouse,
If the allegations of cheating and executive assistance and participation are true, and I have heard independently from very credible sources that it is, then our entire promotion structure has been tainted and may be doomed. I understand through these sources that the 2006 supervisors tests and possibly the 2008 tests were those compromised by group cheating.
These punishments are all necessary for everyone in this agency to maintain any semblance of faith that a fair and level playing field exists for those competing for jobs. The code of honesty and integrity for law enforcement officers is not ambiguous. It is what our profession is ultimately based on. At our military academies cheaters are removed from school permanently, kicked out. This is because their code of honesty and integrity is so important that they do not want association or potential advancement of those willing to compromise those values.
We at ATF should hold no less of a standard. If a student at our academy was found to be cheating they would be fired. Why would that standard be any less because those cheating are potential supervisors?
If we cannot trust our future leaders to turn away from cheating how can we trust them to run our agency? How can the taxpayers we serve trust any of us? If ATF permits cheating to go unpunished then what else will we turn a blind eye to? These are logical questions that our communities will ask if this is not capped off immediately.
This embarrassing event is a black eye for ATF that will not heal. Once the full truth is known and those involved are identified a swift and decisive punishment must be handed out or we can all forever surrender the thought that anything any of us has ever done on this job holds any value.
Lie, cheat, steal and deceive your way to the top regardless of what you stand for or how you’ve conducted yourself. Get there at any cost regardless of how corrupt the journey is. Oh yeah, we’ve had that system in place for awhile. Maybe now is a good time to change it.
December 24, 2009 5:56 PM
Mr. or Mrs. Anonymouse,
If the allegations of cheating and executive assistance and participation are true, and I have heard independently from very credible sources that it is, then our entire promotion structure has been tainted and may be doomed. I understand through these sources that the 2006 supervisors tests and possibly the 2008 tests were those compromised by group cheating.
- For those who took the promotions test and knew they were cheating there is only one solution. Termination.
- For those who provided the materials used to assist others to cheat the same thing is necessary. Termination.
- For those that knew the cheating was taking place and did nothing to report it or prevent it, severe discipline is required. Termination, extended days off, demotion.
These punishments are all necessary for everyone in this agency to maintain any semblance of faith that a fair and level playing field exists for those competing for jobs. The code of honesty and integrity for law enforcement officers is not ambiguous. It is what our profession is ultimately based on. At our military academies cheaters are removed from school permanently, kicked out. This is because their code of honesty and integrity is so important that they do not want association or potential advancement of those willing to compromise those values.
We at ATF should hold no less of a standard. If a student at our academy was found to be cheating they would be fired. Why would that standard be any less because those cheating are potential supervisors?
If we cannot trust our future leaders to turn away from cheating how can we trust them to run our agency? How can the taxpayers we serve trust any of us? If ATF permits cheating to go unpunished then what else will we turn a blind eye to? These are logical questions that our communities will ask if this is not capped off immediately.
This embarrassing event is a black eye for ATF that will not heal. Once the full truth is known and those involved are identified a swift and decisive punishment must be handed out or we can all forever surrender the thought that anything any of us has ever done on this job holds any value.
Lie, cheat, steal and deceive your way to the top regardless of what you stand for or how you’ve conducted yourself. Get there at any cost regardless of how corrupt the journey is. Oh yeah, we’ve had that system in place for awhile. Maybe now is a good time to change it.
#7
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Posted 31 December 2009 - 03:33 PM
No wonder why the management of ATF is in shambles. In the months before DD Ronnie Carter bailed out on ATF he reduced the score necessary to pass the supervisors assessment center to 60. 60 is a D-. 60 is one point above an F+. This is the qualifier test to become an ATF boss. 60 gets you kicked out of the academy. 60 gets you fired as a range score. Now it has been alleged that certain senior members of ATF’s executive staff have been caught handing out “cheat sheets” to certain preferred groups of agents to assist them in scoring a 60 and making them eligible to be considered for management. More to come. I hope to have to retract this entry and say I was wrong. I really want to be wrong on this.
As soon as I find out this is misinformation I will post a correction. But, at this time the information appears accurate. If it is determined that certain executives helped their preferred friends cheat to get ahead, and if some received management jobs after they knowingly cheated, everyone with knowledge of this situation needs to be terminated and prosecuted. I really, really hope that this isn’t so.
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