the more i think about it, it is one of a felony or multiple felony violations to knowingly aid and abet someone in the illegal exportation of munitions list article items.
Even State Dept will have a hard time giving ATF cover on this - they'd have to back date approved DSP-5s & 83s with waivers waiving the requirement for end user certificates. But then, by back dating those docs, they've put themselves into a position of knowing about Fast & Furious, so they can't.
it does create a dilemna - i hope Issa & Grassley explore that issue as it adds to the felonies Newell & McMahon committed
in case, the DSP-5 & DSP-83, one is an export license, the other is the agreement the end user has to sign and have witnessed by a "gov't official" in the country of importation, agreeing he/she will not re-export the approved item(s) without the approval of US State dept
Did Fast & Furious Violate the Arms Export Control Act?
Started by avatar, Jul 13 2011 05:54 PM
103 replies to this topic
#102
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Posted 30 July 2011 - 04:47 PM
Yes. And when the TX mess comes to light over the next couple months your jaws will drop. Think AZ x 1000 more guns. Even CDNN was forced to sell to stores it had reported. Where do you think all those FN PS90s came from. lol... I am drooling for this to break.
Oh dear Lord...please tell me there isnt more to this gunrunning thing.
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#103
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Posted 13 July 2011 - 06:04 PM
Yes. And when the TX mess comes to light over the next couple months your jaws will drop. Think AZ x 1000 more guns. Even CDNN was forced to sell to stores it had reported. Where do you think all those FN PS90s came from. lol... I am drooling for this to break.
#104
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Posted 13 July 2011 - 05:54 PM
The below is copied from attorney David T. Hardy's blog, Of Arms and the Law, at http://armsandthelaw.com/. Attorney Hardy provided links to several of the legal references he cites, and those are copied here within brackets [ ] for convenience of reference for interested readers.
Did Fast & Furious violate the Arms Export Control Act?
Posted by David Hardy · 12 July 2011 07:51 PM
First, the Arms Export Control Act, 22 USC §2778..[not be exported without a permit, issued by the Secretary of State ( Department of State guidelines here ["]http://www.law.corne...2----000-.html] provides:
"§ 2. Principals
( a ) Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.
( b ) Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal."
Permalink · BATFE · Comments (6)
Comments
I have wondered whether this could develop into a Iran Contra style scandal. Though unlike Iran Contra, in which the defendants were trying to circumvent this section of Federal law, the present action seemed to be a complete ignoring of the act.
Posted by: James N. Gibson at July 12, 2011 10:08 PM
Can we cut these guys some slack? After all, all they did was help the wrong side in the war between the Mexican government and the drug cartels, infuriate the government of a neighbor nation, furnish the means to get multiple people killed, give material aid to terrorist organizations, and arm Arizona criminals with weapons that will probably still be in circulation 100 years from now, and then try to cover the whole thing up. Who would care about a little thing like that?
Posted by: denton at July 13, 2011 10:03 AM
You forgot to mention the underlying purpose of all these crimes was to use them as an excuse to make gun purchase and ownership more burdensome...restricting long arm sales and requiring more regulation/reporting...in other words incrementally infringe on the peoples right to bear arms...
...another straw, and another...and pretty soon? Busted camel, dude....
Posted by: kalashnikat at July 13, 2011 04:51 PM
One fly in the ointment. Even assuming the principal participants ARE eventually prosecuted, who's to say that before he leaves office President Obama won't grant all of them blanket presidential pardons? That way they would never even have a record.
Nope, I, for one, do not expect anybody of consequence to do time for any of this mess.
But I'm an optimist.
Posted by: Bad Cyborg, Texas at July 13, 2011 06:04 PM
One fly in the ointment. Even assuming the principal participants ARE eventually prosecuted, who's to say that before he leaves office President Obama won't grant all of them blanket presidential pardons? That way they would never even have a record.
Nope, I, for one, do not expect anybody of consequence to do time for any of this mess.
But I'm an optimist.
Posted by: Bad Cyborg, Texas at July 13, 2011 06:04 PM
No doubt Holder, Napolitano, and a few others ALREADY have their signed presidential pardons in hand....
I feel sorry for the fallguys, though. Looks like Melson won't be one.
In the old days, the way to deal with such people was to leave them in a room, alone, with their pistol and one round. Sometimes the old ways are the best.
Posted by: Flight-ER-Doc at July 13, 2011 08:59 PM
When Nixon lied, nobody died.
Posted by: lazlo at July 14, 2011 03:26 PM
Did Fast & Furious violate the Arms Export Control Act?
Posted by David Hardy · 12 July 2011 07:51 PM
First, the Arms Export Control Act, 22 USC §2778..[not be exported without a permit, issued by the Secretary of State ( Department of State guidelines here ["]http://www.law.corne...2----000-.html] provides:
"§ 2. Principals
( a ) Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.
( b ) Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal."
Permalink · BATFE · Comments (6)
Comments
I have wondered whether this could develop into a Iran Contra style scandal. Though unlike Iran Contra, in which the defendants were trying to circumvent this section of Federal law, the present action seemed to be a complete ignoring of the act.
Posted by: James N. Gibson at July 12, 2011 10:08 PM
Can we cut these guys some slack? After all, all they did was help the wrong side in the war between the Mexican government and the drug cartels, infuriate the government of a neighbor nation, furnish the means to get multiple people killed, give material aid to terrorist organizations, and arm Arizona criminals with weapons that will probably still be in circulation 100 years from now, and then try to cover the whole thing up. Who would care about a little thing like that?
Posted by: denton at July 13, 2011 10:03 AM
You forgot to mention the underlying purpose of all these crimes was to use them as an excuse to make gun purchase and ownership more burdensome...restricting long arm sales and requiring more regulation/reporting...in other words incrementally infringe on the peoples right to bear arms...
...another straw, and another...and pretty soon? Busted camel, dude....
Posted by: kalashnikat at July 13, 2011 04:51 PM
One fly in the ointment. Even assuming the principal participants ARE eventually prosecuted, who's to say that before he leaves office President Obama won't grant all of them blanket presidential pardons? That way they would never even have a record.
Nope, I, for one, do not expect anybody of consequence to do time for any of this mess.
But I'm an optimist.
Posted by: Bad Cyborg, Texas at July 13, 2011 06:04 PM
One fly in the ointment. Even assuming the principal participants ARE eventually prosecuted, who's to say that before he leaves office President Obama won't grant all of them blanket presidential pardons? That way they would never even have a record.
Nope, I, for one, do not expect anybody of consequence to do time for any of this mess.
But I'm an optimist.
Posted by: Bad Cyborg, Texas at July 13, 2011 06:04 PM
No doubt Holder, Napolitano, and a few others ALREADY have their signed presidential pardons in hand....
I feel sorry for the fallguys, though. Looks like Melson won't be one.
In the old days, the way to deal with such people was to leave them in a room, alone, with their pistol and one round. Sometimes the old ways are the best.
Posted by: Flight-ER-Doc at July 13, 2011 08:59 PM
When Nixon lied, nobody died.
Posted by: lazlo at July 14, 2011 03:26 PM
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