19 replies to this topic

[The Original Ralph]

No. THe sheriff didn't say that. Good try though. He was supportive of ATF throughout. They didn't go out to the range and shoot with the Davidians, due to the fact that these people were nuts. Did you forget that the county tried Koresh for attempted murder?? ATF made enough mistakes that day without you making up stuff - (actually quote from one of the defense attorneys that represented the Davidians after watching the conspiracy movies). Why don't you go back to working on the Oklahoma City and 9/11 conspiracies.

then obviously my eyes and ears must be lying to me when i watch that video

[Zorro]

Please don't take this as interjecting myself into the purse fight, but I can vouch for the dishonesty. Industry members are lied to on a regular basis concerning any/all regulatory matters. Classifications are reversed, causing considerable financial harm and retroactively criminalizing people who abided by "the old letter" which was overridden by "the new letter". Add to that ATF NEVER makes a mistake.

AND

The dishonesty cuts both ways. Some people manufacture complaints about ATF or use "poetic license" to add drama to the trivial. ATF does enough on our own - we do not need any assitance. Be the change you claim to want. Don't like being lied to? DON'T LIE.

[ATFTRUTHTELLER]

I notice you didn't bother yourself with responding to my question

again, the sheriff is on camera - i'm starting to wonder if you've been drinking the kool aid


something else that was in the congressional hearings (and i'm sorry, but i bothered to record them live) - there were 4 UC that rented a house across from the branch davidian property - one of those agents wrote in his report, that after having visited and used the davidian range a number of times (as did the Texas state police on an unannounced basis), he wrote he didn't observe any criminal activity. He was recalled to washington for pyschological evaluation- and i can see it, not pulling the company line would be crazy

does it say something that TX state police officers would feel comfortable enough to stop in and use the davidian range, out of convenience, unannounced ? - that doesn't exactly shout "criminal activity hotbed" to me,

what also came out in the hearings, ATF agents were at Ft Hood, training for the assault, six months in advance of the actual assault, using a mock up of the davidian property, and at that training, bragging to their army spec forces trainers how "this was going to be big time, tv cameras, lights, movies..." - but after all, that's only congressional hearing testimony that was unrefuted by ATF.

after all the postings on this forum about how totally & fundamentally corrupt ATF HQ is, you want to believe and pump the "company line"?
you might get your facts from somewhere other than the company water cooler - but i'm done with this conversation, i hear the wife unit calling

No. THe sheriff didn't say that. Good try though. He was supportive of ATF throughout. They didn't go out to the range and shoot with the Davidians, due to the fact that these people were nuts. Did you forget that the county tried Koresh for attempted murder?? ATF made enough mistakes that day without you making up stuff - (actually quote from one of the defense attorneys that represented the Davidians after watching the conspiracy movies). Why don't you go back to working on the Oklahoma City and 9/11 conspiracies.

[The Original Ralph]

Seriously, check your information. This is the crap that comes out of people who listen to crazy people. How about this. The sheriff refused to send his people out there anymore because every time they went out, they were surrounded by cult members armed with assault weapons. He didn't go jogging every morning You hear this stuff from anti-government nuts and believe it. You wonder where people like McVeigh come from? From people like you repeating inaccurate crap. Just because someone said it on CSPAN, doesn't mean it happened. Those of us in the undercover house know the truth.

I notice you didn't bother yourself with responding to my question

again, the sheriff is on camera - i'm starting to wonder if you've been drinking the kool aid. let me expand a little on what he clearly stated: "those people were no different that you or i (speaking to the interviewer), their religion was a little kooky, but basically they wanted to be left alone. The men folk all worked here in town, and i've never had a problem. On a couple of occassions i had a complaint, and i called David Koresh up and he came down here to my office." I'm having a hard time reconciling what i saw the sheriff on waco with your descript that every time he or his deputies went out there, they were surrounded by armed davidians. It would also seem odd to me that any sheriff would tolerate that - ie, and not bring in a larger force, like tx state policce. By the way, the sheriff of waco was in tears when he made the above statement, not acting and not pumping what he wanted to believe, but what he knew to be true.


something else that was in the congressional hearings (and i'm sorry, but i bothered to record them live) - there were 4 UC that rented a house across from the branch davidian property - one of those agents wrote in his report, that after having visited and used the davidian range a number of times (as did the Texas state police on an unannounced basis), he wrote he didn't observe any criminal activity. He was recalled to washington for pyschological evaluation- and i can see it, not pulling the company line would be crazy

does it say something that TX state police officers would feel comfortable enough to stop in and use the davidian range, out of convenience, unannounced ? - that doesn't exactly shout "criminal activity hotbed" to me,

what also came out in the hearings, ATF agents were at Ft Hood, training for the assault, six months in advance of the actual assault, using a mock up of the davidian property, and at that training, bragging to their army spec forces trainers how "this was going to be big time, tv cameras, lights, movies..." - but after all, that's only congressional hearing testimony that was unrefuted by ATF.

after all the postings on this forum about how totally & fundamentally corrupt ATF HQ is, you want to believe and pump the "company line"?
you might get your facts from somewhere other than the company water cooler - but i'm done with this conversation, i hear the wife unit calling

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Wow, we are all over the charts here aren't we?

Seriously, check your information. This is the crap that comes out of people who listen to crazy people. How about this. The sheriff refused to send his people out there anymore because every time they went out, they were surrounded by cult members armed with assault weapons. He didn't go jogging every morning You hear this stuff from anti-government nuts and believe it. You wonder where people like McVeigh come from? From people like you repeating inaccurate crap. Just because someone said it on CSPAN, doesn't mean it happened. Those of us in the undercover house know the truth.

[ATFTRUTHTELLER]

atftruthteller, out of respect to old school's request, i'll leave my response to this - go back and view the cspan tapes on the congressional hearings. it came out there

plus one question re a statement the sheriff of waco made on camera - "if they (ATF) wanted Koresh, hell they could have asked me to call him in - i've called him into my office two times before and he came in, no problem. Or they could have picked him up while he was jogging - everyone knew he jogged every morning at 6:00 AM."

why didn't they???

Seriously, check your information. This is the crap that comes out of people who listen to crazy people. How about this. The sheriff refused to send his people out there anymore because every time they went out, they were surrounded by cult members armed with assault weapons. He didn't go jogging every morning You hear this stuff from anti-government nuts and believe it. You wonder where people like McVeigh come from? From people like you repeating inaccurate crap. Just because someone said it on CSPAN, doesn't mean it happened. Those of us in the undercover house know the truth.

[The Original Ralph]

atftruthteller, out of respect to old school's request, i'll leave my response to this - go back and view the cspan tapes on the congressional hearings. it came out there

plus one question re a statement the sheriff of waco made on camera - "if they (ATF) wanted Koresh, hell they could have asked me to call him in - i've called him into my office two times before and he came in, no problem. Or they could have picked him up while he was jogging - everyone knew he jogged every morning at 6:00 AM."

why didn't they???

[ATFTRUTHTELLER]

Truth, if you are referring to Ralph's statement that Waco (at least the timing of the raid) was in part because ATF wanted to make a big media splash, I can tell you that there is a lot of merit to that statement. About 20 of us went on "60 Minutes". The "60 Minutes" producers were very open about intentionally airing the show right before ATF was to go before congress for it's yearly, 'look how great we are and we need lots more money' pilgrimage. Waco was the first time in ATF's history that a reporter was given the heads up to be present at a major raid. ATF knew the "60 minutes" show was going to air just before it's yearly 'budget beg'.

It has always made sense to me that the reason ATF charged into the compound even though the UC agent told them "they know we're coming", was because no one wanted to tell Higgins and Hartnet, "hey, we had to call of the big raid - just not a good time". The raid needed to be done while the reporter was there and certainly before ATF was due to go before congress. ATF had never had the sort of national media exposure that they knew they were about to get when that show aired. Mike Wallace was chasing Higgins down the hallway and Higgins was looking like the sleazy, scurrying rat that he was. Both Hartnet and Higgins were FURIOUS that we went to "60 Minutes", and I think they had hopes that the WACO raid would show them in a much better light. Then they could write us all off as "disgruntled employees" just trying to sling mud at a wonderful agency. Any of this sounding familiar?

Higgins' and Hartnet's anger over "60 Minutes" (both the original show and the 'post Waco' follow-up show) was so rabid that they started a campaign of retaliation against me that was over-the-top, even by ATF standards. This last campaign to 'get even' eventually resulted in a very large check paid to me by the poor taxpayers.

I'm wondering why you feel that Ralph is way off base here.

Sandy,
Do you remember what happened two days before the Waco raid?? The 1st World Trade Center bombing. It was made clear that no one was even going to cover the story nationally to the on scene commanders. The plan was originally scheduled to go two months earlier. I much more logically explanation was that the creature was alive and after spending all that money, the raid was going forward. You never hear about the background details. Having portable toilets and showers being brought out to the compound for the cult members. Meals scheduled for days. All these were part of a plan. I seriously doubt HRT members were complaining about ATF. They were much more angry at their own people, primarily the hostage negotiators and the FBI on scene commander. Don't believe everything you hear second hand and never believe everything you hear from the media. I don't remember hearing anything from the media about $30,000,000 settlement they paid out to the ATF agents wounded and killed. The real sad part is the cult members never realized who they should really be suing.

[ProConfesso]

Truth, if you are referring to Ralph's statement that Waco (at least the timing of the raid) was in part because ATF wanted to make a big media splash, I can tell you that there is a lot of merit to that statement. About 20 of us went on "60 Minutes". The "60 Minutes" producers were very open about intentionally airing the show right before ATF was to go before congress for it's yearly, 'look how great we are and we need lots more money' pilgrimage. Waco was the first time in ATF's history that a reporter was given the heads up to be present at a major raid. ATF knew the "60 minutes" show was going to air just before it's yearly 'budget beg'.

It has always made sense to me that the reason ATF charged into the compound even though the UC agent told them "they know we're coming", was because no one wanted to tell Higgins and Hartnet, "hey, we had to call of the big raid - just not a good time". The raid needed to be done while the reporter was there and certainly before ATF was due to go before congress. ATF had never had the sort of national media exposure that they knew they were about to get when that show aired. Mike Wallace was chasing Higgins down the hallway and Higgins was looking like the sleazy, scurrying rat that he was. Both Hartnet and Higgins were FURIOUS that we went to "60 Minutes", and I think they had hopes that the WACO raid would show them in a much better light. Then they could write us all off as "disgruntled employees" just trying to sling mud at a wonderful agency. Any of this sounding familiar?

Higgins' and Hartnet's anger over "60 Minutes" (both the original show and the 'post Waco' follow-up show) was so rabid that they started a campaign of retaliation against me that was over-the-top, even by ATF standards. This last campaign to 'get even' eventually resulted in a very large check paid to me by the poor taxpayers.

I'm wondering why you feel that Ralph is way off base here.

Amen. First time I've heard someone say this publicly. The truth. And History continues to repeat itself with the vainglorious self-promoting cads who call themselves LEO's. Really just overachieving frauds.

[The Original Ralph]

old school - the experiences i've described with FTB and Ficaretta are not just bizarre - they are the norm. They will openly mock you in a conversation, making no attempt to hide their "glee" at the frustration they've created, while lying to you, knowing you know their lying.

They do it from or out of pure evilness, plain and simple. They make no bones about hiding their agenda. Heck - look at the lack of respect the email atf mgmt sent around, congratulating whoever at ATF HQ wrote the whitewash response to congress, admitting in the email "Whether or not they buy in, you are the man for supporting us like that." http://www.latimes.c...0,5029419.story

if that's the respect they show congress, why would they have any regard for what they say or do to the industry?

do a google on Len Savage, historic arms llc - one of the recent items, ie reversing rulings on him, to put it in basic terms - they stated or ruled that upper receivers to machineguns are now machineguns in and of themselves. But to really show their arrogance, that ruling only applies to Len - a number of dealers out there are openly selling replacement uppers for the same Mac 11 machinegun, without them being considered machineguns, in and of themselves.

basically, what they've done or a good analogy, let's say you designed and produced a 9mm slide and barrel for a 1911 pistol. They've basically said that that 9mm slide/barrel is a firearm by itself, while other vendors sell similiar caliber conversion uppers for the 1911s.

they have no limit to their arrogance.... but you guys already know that, or at least knew it about mgmt. I was a little surprised to find this website and read how they treated their "foot soldiers", so i assume you're realizing the same surprise i experienced.

[The Original Ralph]

Also, you are misinformed. Your assumptions about Waco probably go well with your view about the moon landings.

my views about waco come from two sources: congressional testimony and two of the FBI HRT team that were there, have over the years worked for my firm

[ATFTRUTHTELLER]

ATFTRUTHTELLER - no argument with anything else you said, but that is the 2nd time you've made that last stmt, expressing concern for the 2nd amendment under any other agency.

i am industry, not ATF but i have to wonder what filtered glasses you're looking thru when you make that stmt. I've posted some pretty outrageous prosecutions (where ATF mgmt committed perjury to convict a dealer). That was not an anomaly - that is the norm - i've got 30 or so more like it. I only collected them and other evidence in case i ever find myself sideways with ATF. But it's not just there - FTB does 180 degree reversals on rulings, often without public notification, putting folks into felony violation status in the blink of an eye. Hell, i was told by that reptilean Theresa Ficaretta, when she was CCO, that a recent ruling reversal, even though the previous ruling had been issued by Ed Owen ( previous chief FTB, who was an arrogant, abrasive asshole, but at least was consistent and honest), that even though my customers had purchased and registered their SBRs under that ruling letter issued to my firm on the very device in question, that those customers were RETROACTIVELY in felony violation, and not due an exemption, even though ATF NFA was complicent in those "felony violations" for having accepted the SBR registrations. But the main point, the ruling reversals on rulings long established, are always further restricting on firearm owners rights - and almost always you have to do mental gymnastics of olympic caliber to keep up with their jumping from ATF english to webster english definitions. They will stretch either to restrict firearms as much as possible, with absolutely no shame or embarrassment on their part.

Other dealers were prosecuted, causing them to spend thousands of dollars defending themselves, because they had accepted the abbreviation "Bltmre" for "Baltimore" on 4473s, even though there's not enough room in the frigging box to write the entire city name. I could go on ad nauseum.

and those are even minor compared to a number of the ones i could detail.


PLEASE TELL ME how it could be worse??? At least if the FBI were enforcing the regs, i could expect some integrity & professionalism in the reg enforcement, which is TOTALLY LACKING with the current ATF mgmt regime.

hell - do a google on len savage, historic arms llc and see the threads that turn up with what ATF has done in terms of rulings on him.

the entire mgmt team at ATF HQ, with few exceptions, as far as I'm concerned, should be frogged marched out the front doors of 99 NY Ave, with Chief reptilean Ficaretta being the first to face the news cameras

don't mean to be harsh, but i haven't seen zilch from ATF HQ in the way of honesty, much less in the way of any interest in safeguarding 2nd amendment rights. You'd have an easier time telling me Hitler was interested in safeguarding the Jews. And no, i'm not a big fan of the NRA


another example, in case anyone from congress is reading this, gunsmiths in TX that "tuned" pistols for the cowboy competitions (now there's a hotbed of criminal activity), were audited and told that because they had swapped barrels on ruger vasquero pistols for customers, installing an octogan barrel, and in doing so they had "manufactured" a new firearm, and that the FET (iirc 10% of market value) was due. After being harangued by ATF with threats of charges for "manufacturing" without the proper 07 FFL (and untold legal defense costs), one of them agreed to a plea bargain - if he would admit to "mfgring" new firearms, there would be no felony violation charges, but he'd have to pay the FET on future such modifications. He agreed. ATF then charged him $28,000 for the FET that was supposedly due on the "newly" manufactured firearms, with fines. EVEN THOUGH RUGER HAD ALREADY PAID THE FET ON THOSE FIREARMS. Interestingly, by ATF's logic in that persecution, if someone installs a barrel on a pumpkin, they've mfgr'd a firearm.

What do you think action like that does, but drive people (mfgrs, innovators, gunsmiths) out of the market. Hell - look at what ATF did to convict that Olsfen guy up in Utah or Idaho over a mis-firing colt - they had to test twice to get it to fire full auto with soft primer ammo, and then it would only do it once, a double fire. Bam - a convicted felon - an accountant that is an officer in the national guard (another flaming indicator of criminal background). What do you think that does to a lot of law abiding citizens but discourage them from owning firearms!!

i could tell you worse stories, but...think WACO - how many folks died over false allegations cause ATF wanted some limelight for the appropriation hearings coming up in congress?.

I don't think you are getting the point. ATF has a strong history of rolling over and pissing it's self when confronted. The FBI won't tolerate being pushed around. That is why back in 1985 the NRA successfully got the ATF disbanded until it became clear that the FBI was taking over the gun laws. The NRA doesn't want ATF disbanded for a reason. The FBI is a powerful, powerful creature. The current regs for dealing with FFLs are a joke. Do you really believe that the FBI would allow them to stay that way.

Also, you are misinformed. Your assumptions about Waco probably go well with your view about the moon landings.

[Pama]

The Original Ralph brings up a great point. ATF management and CCO does not reward anybody (read that an employed special agent or a licensee) taking a stand or speaking out on any issue. Special Agent Vince Cefalu in my opinion stood up for what was right...and as anyone familiar with Murphy's Law knows "No good deed goes unpunished".

As to Original Ralph's post on the "180 degree reversals on rulings, often without public notification, putting folks into felony violation status in the blink of an eye", please see the attached PDF document.

FWIW those of you who read the PDF, I called the attorney who wrote it [James P. Vann] and suggested he just come and compel me. He nor the ATF ever did.

Mr. Cefalu you are leader. Like or not you and several others on this forum are leaders. Having the stones to stand up for what is right and decent is never easy or free. Godspeed in fighting the corruption and your wrongful termination.

Len Savage

Historic Arms LLC

Hey. Look on the bright side. At least Chipman didn't use the words "assault rifle." God Bless you Mr. Savage.

[Pama]

ATFTRUTHTELLER - no argument with anything else you said, but that is the 2nd time you've made that last stmt, expressing concern for the 2nd amendment under any other agency.

i am industry, not ATF but i have to wonder what filtered glasses you're looking thru when you make that stmt. I've posted some pretty outrageous prosecutions (where ATF mgmt committed perjury to convict a dealer). That was not an anomaly - that is the norm - i've got 30 or so more like it. I only collected them and other evidence in case i ever find myself sideways with ATF. But it's not just there - FTB does 180 degree reversals on rulings, often without public notification, putting folks into felony violation status in the blink of an eye. Hell, i was told by that reptilean Theresa Ficaretta, when she was CCO, that a recent ruling reversal, even though the previous ruling had been issued by Ed Owen ( previous chief FTB, who was an arrogant, abrasive asshole, but at least was consistent and honest), that even though my customers had purchased and registered their SBRs under that ruling letter issued to my firm on the very device in question, that those customers were RETROACTIVELY in felony violation, and not due an exemption, even though ATF NFA was complicent in those "felony violations" for having accepted the SBR registrations. But the main point, the ruling reversals on rulings long established, are always further restricting on firearm owners rights - and almost always you have to do mental gymnastics of olympic caliber to keep up with their jumping from ATF english to webster english definitions. They will stretch either to restrict firearms as much as possible, with absolutely no shame or embarrassment on their part.

Other dealers were prosecuted, causing them to spend thousands of dollars defending themselves, because they had accepted the abbreviation "Bltmre" for "Baltimore" on 4473s, even though there's not enough room in the frigging box to write the entire city name. I could go on ad nauseum.

and those are even minor compared to a number of the ones i could detail.

I think Olofson is in Wisconsin and he loaned the AR to a friend in Minnesota. The guy fired about 800 rounds at a range and there was one misfire. No modifications to the rifle. This case is a gross miscarriage of justice. I am aware of one particular case of prosecutorial misconduct and abuse too. Fortunately the man was acquitted based on the testimony of my friend.


PLEASE TELL ME how it could be worse??? At least if the FBI were enforcing the regs, i could expect some integrity & professionalism in the reg enforcement, which is TOTALLY LACKING with the current ATF mgmt regime.

hell - do a google on len savage, historic arms llc and see the threads that turn up with what ATF has done in terms of rulings on him.

the entire mgmt team at ATF HQ, with few exceptions, as far as I'm concerned, should be frogged marched out the front doors of 99 NY Ave, with Chief reptilean Ficaretta being the first to face the news cameras

don't mean to be harsh, but i haven't seen zilch from ATF HQ in the way of honesty, much less in the way of any interest in safeguarding 2nd amendment rights. You'd have an easier time telling me Hitler was interested in safeguarding the Jews. And no, i'm not a big fan of the NRA


another example, in case anyone from congress is reading this, gunsmiths in TX that "tuned" pistols for the cowboy competitions (now there's a hotbed of criminal activity), were audited and told that because they had swapped barrels on ruger vasquero pistols for customers, installing an octogan barrel, and in doing so they had "manufactured" a new firearm, and that the FET (iirc 10% of market value) was due. After being harangued by ATF with threats of charges for "manufacturing" without the proper 07 FFL (and untold legal defense costs), one of them agreed to a plea bargain - if he would admit to "mfgring" new firearms, there would be no felony violation charges, but he'd have to pay the FET on future such modifications. He agreed. ATF then charged him $28,000 for the FET that was supposedly due on the "newly" manufactured firearms, with fines. EVEN THOUGH RUGER HAD ALREADY PAID THE FET ON THOSE FIREARMS. Interestingly, by ATF's logic in that persecution, if someone installs a barrel on a pumpkin, they've mfgr'd a firearm.

What do you think action like that does, but drive people (mfgrs, innovators, gunsmiths) out of the market. Hell - look at what ATF did to convict that Olsfen guy up in Utah or Idaho over a mis-firing colt - they had to test twice to get it to fire full auto with soft primer ammo, and then it would only do it once, a double fire. Bam - a convicted felon - an accountant that is an officer in the national guard (another flaming indicator of criminal background). What do you think that does to a lot of law abiding citizens but discourage them from owning firearms!!

i could tell you worse stories, but...think WACO - how many folks died over false allegations cause ATF wanted some limelight for the appropriation hearings coming up in congress?.

[The Original Ralph]

..... Everything I am hearing says it won't matter soon. ATF is going to be forced into being split. The NRA is going to get their worse nightmare. The gun laws will be enforced by the FBI. I will be praying for the 2nd amendment.

ATFTRUTHTELLER - no argument with anything else you said, but that is the 2nd time you've made that last stmt, expressing concern for the 2nd amendment under any other agency.

i am industry, not ATF but i have to wonder what filtered glasses you're looking thru when you make that stmt. I've posted some pretty outrageous prosecutions (where ATF mgmt committed perjury to convict a dealer). That was not an anomaly - that is the norm - i've got 30 or so more like it. I only collected them and other evidence in case i ever find myself sideways with ATF. But it's not just there - FTB does 180 degree reversals on rulings, often without public notification, putting folks into felony violation status in the blink of an eye. Hell, i was told by that reptilean Theresa Ficaretta, when she was CCO, that a recent ruling reversal, even though the previous ruling had been issued by Ed Owen ( previous chief FTB, who was an arrogant, abrasive asshole, but at least was consistent and honest), that even though my customers had purchased and registered their SBRs under that ruling letter issued to my firm on the very device in question, that those customers were RETROACTIVELY in felony violation, and not due an exemption, even though ATF NFA was complicent in those "felony violations" for having accepted the SBR registrations. But the main point, the ruling reversals on rulings long established, are always further restricting on firearm owners rights - and almost always you have to do mental gymnastics of olympic caliber to keep up with their jumping from ATF english to webster english definitions. They will stretch either to restrict firearms as much as possible, with absolutely no shame or embarrassment on their part.

Other dealers were prosecuted, causing them to spend thousands of dollars defending themselves, because they had accepted the abbreviation "Bltmre" for "Baltimore" on 4473s, even though there's not enough room in the frigging box to write the entire city name. I could go on ad nauseum.

and those are even minor compared to a number of the ones i could detail.


PLEASE TELL ME how it could be worse??? At least if the FBI were enforcing the regs, i could expect some integrity & professionalism in the reg enforcement, which is TOTALLY LACKING with the current ATF mgmt regime.

hell - do a google on len savage, historic arms llc and see the threads that turn up with what ATF has done in terms of rulings on him.

the entire mgmt team at ATF HQ, with few exceptions, as far as I'm concerned, should be frogged marched out the front doors of 99 NY Ave, with Chief reptilean Ficaretta being the first to face the news cameras

don't mean to be harsh, but i haven't seen zilch from ATF HQ in the way of honesty, much less in the way of any interest in safeguarding 2nd amendment rights. You'd have an easier time telling me Hitler was interested in safeguarding the Jews. And no, i'm not a big fan of the NRA


another example, in case anyone from congress is reading this, gunsmiths in TX that "tuned" pistols for the cowboy competitions (now there's a hotbed of criminal activity), were audited and told that because they had swapped barrels on ruger vasquero pistols for customers, installing an octogan barrel, and in doing so they had "manufactured" a new firearm, and that the FET (iirc 10% of market value) was due. After being harangued by ATF with threats of charges for "manufacturing" without the proper 07 FFL (and untold legal defense costs), one of them agreed to a plea bargain - if he would admit to "mfgring" new firearms, there would be no felony violation charges, but he'd have to pay the FET on future such modifications. He agreed. ATF then charged him $28,000 for the FET that was supposedly due on the "newly" manufactured firearms, with fines. EVEN THOUGH RUGER HAD ALREADY PAID THE FET ON THOSE FIREARMS. Interestingly, by ATF's logic in that persecution, if someone installs a barrel on a pumpkin, they've mfgr'd a firearm.

What do you think action like that does, but drive people (mfgrs, innovators, gunsmiths) out of the market. Hell - look at what ATF did to convict that Olsfen guy up in Utah or Idaho over a mis-firing colt - they had to test twice to get it to fire full auto with soft primer ammo, and then it would only do it once, a double fire. Bam - a convicted felon - an accountant that is an officer in the national guard (another flaming indicator of criminal background). What do you think that does to a lot of law abiding citizens but discourage them from owning firearms!!

i could tell you worse stories, but...think WACO - how many folks died over false allegations cause ATF wanted some limelight for the appropriation hearings coming up in congress?.