200 replies to this topic

[Doc Holiday]

To All:
In an attempt to consolidate posts and make the site more user friendly, we have tried to narrow the number of topics. Please make every effort to find an existing topic which most matches your concerns and issues that need addressing.

Did the thread title get changed ?
MY link isnt working and the name of the thread doesnt look familiar?
:-)

[Excalibur-2112]

Posted for a friend........


http://www.hstoday.u...27101185b9.html


Did the ATF Houston Field Division engage in firearm trafficking across the Mexican Border? Why have the DOJ and US Atty Offices failed to include the Zapata family and ICE SA Avila involved in accordance with federal laws to protect the rights of Victims and Witnesses? SA Avila is a victim and witness who survived with injuries the shooting that killed his partner, ICE SA Zapata in Mexico. What does his boss, DHS Sec Janet Napolitano know that she isn’t sharing with her employee and her deceased employee's family? How much longer will AG Eric Holder be allowed to lie to Congress? How many ATF Office of Chief Counsel Attys are involved in the approvals of these type of illegal firearm trafficking cases?

Did the thread title get changed ?
MY link isnt working and the name of the thread doesnt look familiar?
:-)

[Jaime3]

HILARIOUS!!!!!!!

Courtesy of The Patriot Post:

[coyotejoe]

"May be held in contempt"? I seems to me that he has shown nothing but contempt from his very first appearance. He flatly refused to turn over his own emails, just said "no I won't" and suffered no consequences. No wonder he fells contempt for the congressional hearings, I'm feeling that myself. They have several ATF people who have clearly lied to congress and walked away. They have proof that several people cannot deny knowledge of all the details of F&F but have taken no action against them. They demand that Holder should punish those responsible but congress also takes no action. The hearings are just a political melodrama with no real drama at all. Issa keeps saying he intends to get to the bottom of this but just keeps spinning his wheels and going no where. Obviously he enjoys the spotlight and has no desire to wrap things up.
We know that real and serious crimes have been committed, why is there no criminal investigation? The lower lever bureaucrats know they have nothing to fear from the DOJ so long as they continue to stonewall. The worst that may happen to them is to loose their jobs and move on to better paying jobs already arranged for them.
In a real criminal investigation those people like Hope Macallister, David Voth, William Newell and Dennis Burke, people who cannot possibly deny knowledge of the actual strategy and effect of F&F would be arrested, charged with every violation of the law that can be deemed to perhaps fit and held for extradition to Mexico. Then and only then would they have incentive to cut a deal to testify against their bosses. But that will never happen from congressional investigations or DOJ Inspector General investigations. The only hope of justice for Brian Terry's family rests with the Arizona prosecutor.

[GoodWorker]

Here is the link to today's testimony. It was not pretty. http://issues.oversi...fastandfurious/

[retired1811]

To better understand this process readers may want to check "Contempt of Congress" in Wikipedia.

[ProConfesso]

This report rates a D as a college term paper. No substance, understanding and critical thinking behind the information regurgitation. The recommendations by the democratic members of the committee are nothing more than the talking points fed to the House members by their staff for the hearing cameras.
1. "strictly enforce the prohibition of gun walking across L.E." why not add we shouldn't as sworn law enforcement officers introduce any lethal contraband into the public domain. duh. their telling the cops not to traffick guns. if you have to start here its no wonder an 8 yr old was grazed with a bullet in the Bronx and a NYPD officer was shot in the head yesterday with GUNS.
2. "ATF lacked sufficient clarity regarding its operational policies and training for firearms trafficking cases." Like saying a DH can't hit or a goalie can't stop the puck. Then your not a DH or a goalie - at least not in the professional world, which S/A's ar/should be. You mean the Agency that has as its main mission to halt illegal gun crimes can't do its job. Yet a few recommendations later they want to give more $$$.
3. "Require operational safety strategy" - analyze the risk of firearms being released into the community. You mean another check box on an OPSEC form. For this? Again, isn't this something that should be null and void to begin with in all circumstances.
4."Enhance accessability of ATF Ombudsman" well I found them to be accessable - just not helpful.
5."Expand multiple long gun sales reporting." A real yawn. Get bold Congressman. Allow gun sales to be recorded real time in NCIC.
6."Appoint ATF Director" Preferably a friend of the appointor or a party member. Oh we tried that with mcgaw & truscot
7. "Enact a dedicated firearms trafficking statute." Perhaps the most deceptive to the public proposal. This was uttered by Congressperson Maloney at Hearing/testimony. Yes, it so easy to prove culpability (knowledge) here in the bill she sponsors. Stop fooling people that this will stop gun trafficking. 18 USC 922 a1A, 922 a6 in the hands of a capable agent do the same thing. Variables like USA offices and different states granted.
8. "Provide ATF with adequate resources to combat illegal guns." more $$ that would have made a difference?
9. "Improve management and oversight of ATF Firearms trafficking cases, deficient HQ and Field communications." It was a deficient IQ in HQ. Plain & simple. Now where is the call for discipline? Or is this just a political report to excise fault with a like party administration?

Overall. Not worth the paper its printed on.

[spinax489]

I agree.. and the fact that he dared to say that he's been to many law enforcement funerals and has yet to contact the Terry family is even more galling..

[Zorro]

If you can make a connection between ITAR and corrupt, wasteful behavior at ATF you may see it happen. Perhaps cleanupstate.org?

[California Citizen]

and my guess some are possibly at risk for felony charges

I've been mystified since the beginning why no one is talking about ITAR -- International Traffic in Arms Regulations. Heck, in my business exporting certain software or computer chips without a license from State could land your @ss in Club Fed for a long time. Even selling to someone in one country that re-exports to another country can get you in trouble -- you are expected to vet your customers and be sure they are squeeky clean. Seems to me that causing the export of something that actually shoots would fall under ITAR also, therefore requiring a license from the State Department. What am I missing? Why isn't ITAR in play here?

[Excalibur-2112]

After reading a bit of that what this is going to come down to, in my guestimation, is for felony charges to be brought against everyone in the AZ branch, and hopefully if they havent yet, they start squealing in order to get the heat off of themselves.
If it were me, Id find some way of bringing charges against everyone the low level agents are accusing of ANY wrongdoing...ie if an agent was told to not intercept someone that was taking guns into Mexico, charge that person that instructed the agent with any legal charges that can be used. Put a lot of heat on these guys...make them believe they are facing felony charges and if that happens with enough of them one of them is going to break and rat out someone higher. Lather, rinse repeat.
I know Issa wants to build a strong case first, but at some point real charges need to be aimed in someones direction. I mean we see criminals getting convicted all the time based on witness accounts.

[Excalibur-2112]

In all honesty, did we expect an admission of guilt?
Gunrunner was an assault against the people of Mexico...and act of war.
If it was carried out by peons at the bottom then the men in charge punish them and America looks good.
If it was upper management who did it then someone at the top most likely knew about it and likely condoned it, in which case this was the US government at the highest levels committing an act of war against Mexico...and my guess some are possibly at risk for felony charges and maybe even being extradited to Mexico for the murders that have taken place with guns they sent south...especially if this moron in the white house actually gets that UN Small Arms treaty ratified which I believe has provisions for such extriditions if Im understanding it correctly.

They will NEVER confess. They will continue to shift the blame even if the evidence become incontrovertible.
They cannot admit guilt. Not for their own personal sake and certainly not for Americas.

These folks clearly have zero honor, zero credibility and zero leadership

Which is why they will never allow themselves to take a fall willingly.

Ive watched Issa grilling Holder and also the 'interrogation' of mr Newell.
These two inbreds are two peas in a pod. Their responses were so identical if you closed you eyes and listened you'd swear it was the same slimy liar talking.
The good thing is that when Newell was before Issa that the other 3 agents were laying it out pretty damned clearly. Newell said the one guy knew about F&F and the tactics, but the man corrected him pretty harshly when he spoke again, which Im certain Issa made note of.

This is a bad situation no matter which way it goes.
Either Holder and his dupes get off and some low level guys who were innocent take the blame....or Holder and the upper echelon get toasted and the whole damned country looks like a bunch of felonious gun running thugs.

This whole damned thing is a Kobayoshi Maru.

[spinax489]

Like I said in previous post..this report isn't worth the paper it's printed on, nor the electrons or bytes expended to put it out/store it on the 'net.

[spinax489]

Given the source, this report isn't worth the paper it's printed on, nor the electrons used to store it. Most agents that I was privileged to meet during my time at ATF would not have ignored common investigative practices. The pass given to the higher-ups in this report.. well, like I said.. not worth the electrons expended or paper it's printed on.

[AirtechJr]

As I read this I get sick to my stomach.

http://www.nytimes.c...estigation.html

[KatiePavlich]

Does anybody have any info on White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly? The guy Bill Newell was emailing in the White House? I need his bio and background.

[Sabrina]

eye roll
Yeah right, I bet his parents also forgot to tell Melson that Santa Claus does not exist.

[Sabrina]

Eleanor, is that you?

I'm finding it hard to believe that an agent would go out of his way to this extent to insult someone who is asking legitimate questions while being supportive of those who are working so hard to correct this nightmare that is ATF. Reminds me of the old 'ATF TRUTH TELLER' - are you back now? I don't know of a single agent who is on the side of the good guys who would put so much effort in making CleanUp appear to be a joke.

Excalibur, please stay with us, your opinions, your support, and your input are appreciated. I also don't believe that Pete is the agent he claims to be.

Amen!
Many Americans are PISSED OFF that our government is running a criminal enterprise using the DOJ/AFT/FBI and any other alphabet soup department necessary to allow gun sales to arm Mexican drug Cartels. Arm sales that have and will continue to kill Federal Agents, Mexican Citizens and who knows who else.
While our government was running guns across the Mexican borders this administration continually keep feeding the American public how they need more guns laws. Yes you got it, more Gun laws to restrict lawful US citizens 2nd amendment rights.
The only conspiracy I see is the 90% bullshit that they tried to feed us for months and the conspiracy to ensure the truth does not come out and they are prosecuted for their crimes, treason and acts of war.
I read here to get the facts not to read some jackasses comments belittling my fellow citizens, because said jackass is an AGENT who is taking time out of his mopping duties to screw with someone.
Here's a fact for you Pete you haven't impressed me one bit, matter of fact you have shown me why this criminal act took place and why it is taking so long to bring all the criminals involved in this to justice.
Hope you had a Merry Christmas and a blessed New Years that hopefully will bring indictments to all those behind this horrid crime called Fast n Furious to include being held accountable in Mexico for their crimes.

[Patriot]

When Melson was here, he was like a little boy, wide eyed and using ATF to pursue things that he liked. We all remember the mummy trip. His interest with technolgy I am sure led to having video feeds in his office. The fact that he is now denying knowledge just speaks to his character. As I have mentioned previously, it strikes me as ironic that he is the end all guru of ethics in the forensic community. They should probably look for a successor.

[Excalibur-2112]

So is Melson claiming to be the dumbest damned human being on the face of the planet?

I mean....assuming I was in his position ...working for the BATFE....ie enforcing GUN laws...and for some strange reason Im sitting at my desk watching GUN SALES.....am I so damned dense that I cant make ANY connection that I might be watching them for a REASON ?

Did Melson not like the Golf Channel or CNN at all...and so much so that instead of watching some entertaining show on TV to pass the long work day that he instead decided to watch gun sales down at the local mom and pop firearm shop ?

Something seriously isnt adding up if he's claiming ignorance unless there is some extreme situation here where Melsons office is similar to the Matrix movies "Architect" that has a few hundred TV screens all going at once and he just happens to watch whichever one his chair and donuts are currently pointed at....ie he had so many options that he didnt know what he was actually watching....which for me and a lot of the voting public just isnt going to fly. It was his damned job to know what he was dealing with. And if he couldnt then whomever put him in that position seemingly wanted a warm, brainless body to sit in that chair but not think about what he was actually doing....in that case it would seem that the one who appointed Melson would be complicit in F/F themselves and trying to make sure that they placed a complete lackwit who wouldnt figure it all out in that position.

I remember when his name first came into this, and I'll have to check my own notes, but it seems to me if he's playing the stupid card now that his story has changed in some way.
Something seriously amiss here.
Its no wonder decent, honorable BATFE agents have brought this all to light.

[Retired and loving it]

Uh....I must be a little stupid or something here.
Ive been watching this F/F crap since it first hit the news last year and ....uh....I seem to remember old Melson saying that he had been WATCHING VIDEOS of some of these gun transactions.
Am I confused on some point here?
How the hell did the man watch the sales themselves and not know what the hell he was watching for?

Does he actually think Issa isnt going to find out exactly what was going on and what he knew sooner or later?

No Excaliber, you are not a little stupid or something. Actually, you're very observant!

Melson is a forensic dipshit. He didn't even know what he was watching on his direct link to the dealer sales. That's what happens when you put a guy in as Director who doesn't understand squat about the operations he is supposedly directing. It's been that way for years and years. Magaw was probably the last Director to understand anything at all about ATF ops. Buckles sure didn't (all he ever did was sit around and introspect with little to no action) and then there was that stooge Truscott.

It's going to be a long, long time before ATF ever (if ever) recovers from the damage Buckles, Truscott, and Melson did to ATF. I'm not convinced that Jones is going to help much either -- at least not while he still has his day job in MN.

Leadership has become a joke within ATF.

[Excalibur-2112]

Uh....I must be a little stupid or something here.
Ive been watching this F/F crap since it first hit the news last year and ....uh....I seem to remember old Melson saying that he had been WATCHING VIDEOS of some of these gun transactions.
Am I confused on some point here?
How the hell did the man watch the sales themselves and not know what the hell he was watching for?

Does he actually think Issa isnt going to find out exactly what was going on and what he knew sooner or later?

[Ike]

Sandy:

It all appears to fit into the pattern. Hide the process, change your mind frequently, contradict yourself, don't answer letters, always testify that the NFRTR is 100% accurate, keep 'em off balance....

"Never give a sucker an even break!"

To quote Yakov Smirnoff, "What a country!"

[Ike]

Understanding the political agenda of "Fast and Furious"

From the book: "Disarmed: The Missing Movement for Gun Control in America", comes this very interesting quote: (Courtesy of Mike Vanderboegh & The Sipsey Street Irregulars)

"By the late 90s, with a pro-control president in the White House, BATF was poised to become a quiet ally to gun control organizations. . . To avoid arousing the gun lobby, the agency justified its research projects in terms of "enforcement" of existing laws, which gun rights organizations were on record as supporting. . . One insider summarized the bureaucracy's strategy as follows: "We had a plan to move from enforcement to policy to politics without anybody noticing, and that's what we did." (The footnote to this quote indicates it was based on a "personal interview with a former Treasury official, March, 2002.")

Vanderboegh goes on to conclude this is the genesis of the Gunwalker Conspiracy (Fast & Furious, etc.).

If accurate, this is huge. Does this also explain:

• Continued ATF reporting of fraudulent statistics from ATF eTrace (even after being warned by the Congressional Research Service)?
• progressively more restrictive rulings on imports?
• Recently tagging legitimate gun dealers as "Criminal Friendly FFL"?
• Stupid and contradictory letter rulings from Firearms Technology (Brillo Pads & strings - wow!)?
• Why ATF continually opposes an amnesty (specifically authorized in the 1968 Gun Control Act) to gain control of currently illegal machine guns and other NFA weapons?
• Why ATF has been quietly building a massive firearms registration system (in defiance of the Firearms Owner Protection Act) under the guise of firearms tracing?
• Why ATF has been openly advocating firearms registration (for tracing) to the UN?
• What else does it explain?

In other words, rather than fair, impartial enforcement of existing laws, has ATF been deliberately directed and staffed to implement an agenda as a taxpayer funded pro-active anti-gun political organization imposing additional gun control wherever and however they can? Have ATF street agents become tools of an ATF management political agenda? And how far up the chain does this corruption go?

How many of the police principles developed by Robert Peel to define an ethical police force does this violate? Most of them? How many of the principles did Fast & Furious violate?

Just askin'.....

[Oldpuppymax]

"Acting" directors or not, how does Melson explain his January, 2011 email exchange with Rubenstein? Melson was informed of gunwalking in December of 2010, right here on CleanUp ATF! His only concern appeared to be the severity of the punishment he would be able to inflict on 1desertrat, if an Agent. Apparently the brass believe the lowly agents to be capable of any sort of misdeed due to congressional failure to approve a presidential nominee!

[Excalibur-2112]

Really not sure where to put this.

I guess old Obama has decided to use signing statements when he sees fit to push gun control
As if this administration isnt pissing off law abiding gun owners...ie a third of the country at least...to begin with.

He says this during his campaign.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4iGAgocmI54

"Thats not part of his power"

Seems clear enough.
Clearly the man understands the problem with signing statements and condemns them THEN, so this isnt an issue of his being confused about what HIS job and authority is.
He bashes Bush, then turns around and does the SAME exact thing !


http://home.nra.org/...ideoModule/5736

Id like to say that I just dont understand Obama, but the fact is he's just showing the same stripes he did in Chicago.

[Patriot]

The first sentence in the article should have said five "ineffective" acting directors. If the quote is accurate then just change the number to six and add another year. Mr Jones you are grossly misinformed if you believe what you said. The reality is that field agents are what kept ATF on the rails, to use your term. In spite of ineffectual leadership the agents have continued to work, make cases and make a difference in the communities in which they work. It is time for you to begin listening to the field and not the rhetoric of the executive staff. I might also suggest that you, Mr Jones, seize the first opportunity to correct your statement.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Mr. Jones, let me echo Zorro's position and be crystal clear. STOP echoing some stated position, that your executive staff states as fact. You are NOT ATF, you have been here three months and your recent comments about unsupervised Agents shows it.This is not an attempt at disrespect as your credentials suggest you are good at what you do. What you are doing is exactly what everyone is accusing Melson et al of doing, and your right it IS wrong to blame your troops. Take some time, UNANNOUNCED. Visit the field divisions and follow just two or three cases from their inceptions for just three days. You WILL rescind any reference to Fast and Furious having anything to do with out of control Agents.Any part of F and F that resulted from Agents actions, was the result of total inexperience, lack of a real field training program and a management group/structure that prevented them from stopping this train-wreck even if they were experienced enough. Its called retaliation and reprisal and the Phoenix Filed Division have been some of the most abusive. Factor in a first line supervisor who was barely an ATF Agent and ONLY knew how to say yes sir Mr. Gillette, Yes Sir Mr. Newell and it was disaster.

Mr. Jones, Heres ATF 101. Our management has lost the ability to lead or think independently and have been put on notice any opinion other than a SACs or ASACs is irrelevant, and any attempt to provide insight, will result in your last promotion or an immediate transfer to HQ so you can see the big picture. Edgar, Billy etal have been more concerned with their personal advancement than the core mission of our Bureau. JUST LOOK at every failed program in ATF from NIBIN, to NRT, to ESF 13, to Gunrunner to EEOC. HAS ONE, JUST ONE manager who over saw those failed programs NOT been promoted? We are not saying fire them. We are not even saying demote them. Get them out of the positions they have failed at.An Agent has to practically sell their first born to get even the slightest dynamic case off the ground by the time the veteran of 6 or 7 yrs Supervisor "what ifs" it to death, then he/she has to convince the ASAC and SAC that nothing bad will happen if the Agent actually tries to go out and arrest someone, so the SAC wont have to answer to HQ. Then the ridiculous briefings and re-briefings for insecure and inexperienced supervisors just to keep the case going long enough to be successful. Does that sound like a system where a handful of Agents could possibly let 2000, I repeat 2000, ONE MORE TIME 2000 guns cross an international Border, into known criminals hands, causing hundreds of deaths of civilians and the deaths of U S Agents, and the bosses weren't aware and calling the shots? Sir, AGAIN, with all due respect, (as I learned from my time in Atlanta) THAT DOG WON'T HUNT.

The following quote from the referenced article is troubling:

Pointing out that the ATF has had five acting directors in the last six years, Jones said the resulting weak management structure has given some field agents a license to operate independently of Washington. "There was a vacuum. Fast and Furious went off the rails, and there were plenty of opportunities to pivot so none of this would happen," Jones said.

Mr. Jones - if the above is accurately quoted and accurately attributed to you, then to borrow a line from Mr. Grassley "You may be ill-served". You may not have been here long enough to know that ATF does not operate that way. Agents need multiple layers of approval to even begin such an operation, even one that does not encourage and allow sales to known traffickers with no intention of maintaining control or observation of the firearms. If you have been advised otherwise, you may want to consider other sources for your orientation to the agency because you will have no shortage of employees testify contrary to your assertion and be able to back it up with specific examples.

Here's hoping there was a misunderstanding or miscommunication during the interview. We don't need any more classic oversight hearing moments with an employee being asked "Are you lying or are they lying?".

[Zorro]

The following quote from the referenced article is troubling:

Pointing out that the ATF has had five acting directors in the last six years, Jones said the resulting weak management structure has given some field agents a license to operate independently of Washington. "There was a vacuum. Fast and Furious went off the rails, and there were plenty of opportunities to pivot so none of this would happen," Jones said.

Mr. Jones - if the above is accurately quoted and accurately attributed to you, then to borrow a line from Mr. Grassley "You may be ill-served". You may not have been here long enough to know that ATF does not operate that way. Agents need multiple layers of approval to even begin such an operation, even one that does not encourage and allow sales to known traffickers with no intention of maintaining control or observation of the firearms. If you have been advised otherwise, you may want to consider other sources for your orientation to the agency because you will have no shortage of employees testify contrary to your assertion and be able to back it up with specific examples.

Here's hoping there was a misunderstanding or miscommunication during the interview. We don't need any more classic oversight hearing moments with an employee being asked "Are you lying or are they lying?".

[SilentObserver]

I have been saying for weeks now that ATF is going to be thrown under the bus!..It is coming in a huge fashion..The DOJ needs to put some distance between it and the ATF as soon as possible..Holder is in the HOT SEAT and it is getting mighty warm for his lying self!

And Melson..Well you all know Melson!

We will see which little piggy's squeal the loudest when House Oversight starts issuing subpoenas this spring..Y'all better duck cause the finger pointing is going to be every where..Ya Might lose and eye!

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Think you just did.

Vince and Sandy....peterparker has started his assault in my personal area. I deleted it but is there any way you guys could tell this ass to pretend I dont exist?

[PetePark1811]

I agree completely. As far as I am concerned, you hit the nail on the head. But, from my understanding, the NRA does not want the FBI getting the gun laws. Clinton tried to give the gun laws to the FBI and it was fought by the NRA. Same thing when it came up to give the gun laws to the Secret Service. Why leave the gun laws with ATF??? The NRA could push to have ATF defunded, but they haven't.

In the end it doesnt matter who is overseeing gun laws. The American people have voted and more than 70% understand what the Second Amendment means.
Whatever agency is in charge will face hundreds or thousands of law suits if it crosses the lines and tries to infringe on our Constitutional rights.
Just as there have already been many law suits.
If we have to vote out every antigun mutant in DC and replace them with pro gun politicians who will defund whatever has to be defunded in order to protect our Constitutional rights, so be it.
What bothers me is seeing this 'tough guy' mentality here as if its 'us against them'. WE are on YOUR side, people....when are YOU going to be on OUR side????
We are law abiding American citizens and government agencies can treat us as such .... or we can go to the polls and the courtrooms and make changes to the system, if necessary.

Its not a matter of pushing the FBI around .
Its a matter of whether the FBI will honor the Constitution of the United States of America or not.
We will vote for congressmen and presidents who will ensure that they do.

This IS NOT an NRA issue, Im afraid, I dont even belong to the NRA. This is an AMERICAN RIGHTS issue. And Americans have started taking notes...and names.
I can think of half a dozen people off hand who had never even touched a gun 3 years ago who have not only purchased one or more, but now, like myself, have taken the required course and gotten their concealed carry license.
Read the data.
Law abiding folk are buying guns in record number and a good percentage of that is specifically to get a CC license. These VOTERS aren't just going to sit back and be abused by these operations like F/F trying to tear down our rights. I would hope that the last 10 months would be proof of that. They are going to press their congressmen, as I have myself, to do what has to be done to stop these operations and these unnecessary assaults on our constitutional freedom.
Do ANY of you really want to live in a country stripped of personal freedoms like we have here?
Freedom is why we are great. Why we stand out in the world. Tear that down and we are nothing. And it all starts with tearing down the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

We love our country. We appreciate ALL of you who serve the USA and its people. And we'd certainly hope that YOU are not so naive as to believe that WE arent every bit as honorable and have as much integrity as you do. Some more so than others, obviously....sadly on both sides.

I generally dont vote much, nor does my wife. But we are sure as hell voting this time around to get Obama out of the White house and get someone in who isnt going to put men like Eric Holder into positions of authority.
As we can all see in the news my wife and I are NOT the only ones who are sick and tired of corruption in this administration.

[Excalibur-2112]

In the end it doesnt matter who is overseeing gun laws. The American people have voted and more than 70% understand what the Second Amendment means.
Whatever agency is in charge will face hundreds or thousands of law suits if it crosses the lines and tries to infringe on our Constitutional rights.
Just as there have already been many law suits.
If we have to vote out every antigun mutant in DC and replace them with pro gun politicians who will defund whatever has to be defunded in order to protect our Constitutional rights, so be it.
What bothers me is seeing this 'tough guy' mentality here as if its 'us against them'. WE are on YOUR side, people....when are YOU going to be on OUR side????
We are law abiding American citizens and government agencies can treat us as such .... or we can go to the polls and the courtrooms and make changes to the system, if necessary.

Its not a matter of pushing the FBI around .
Its a matter of whether the FBI will honor the Constitution of the United States of America or not.
We will vote for congressmen and presidents who will ensure that they do.

This IS NOT an NRA issue, Im afraid, I dont even belong to the NRA. This is an AMERICAN RIGHTS issue. And Americans have started taking notes...and names.
I can think of half a dozen people off hand who had never even touched a gun 3 years ago who have not only purchased one or more, but now, like myself, have taken the required course and gotten their concealed carry license.
Read the data.
Law abiding folk are buying guns in record number and a good percentage of that is specifically to get a CC license. These VOTERS aren't just going to sit back and be abused by these operations like F/F trying to tear down our rights. I would hope that the last 10 months would be proof of that. They are going to press their congressmen, as I have myself, to do what has to be done to stop these operations and these unnecessary assaults on our constitutional freedom.
Do ANY of you really want to live in a country stripped of personal freedoms like we have here?
Freedom is why we are great. Why we stand out in the world. Tear that down and we are nothing. And it all starts with tearing down the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

We love our country. We appreciate ALL of you who serve the USA and its people. And we'd certainly hope that YOU are not so naive as to believe that WE arent every bit as honorable and have as much integrity as you do. Some more so than others, obviously....sadly on both sides.

I generally dont vote much, nor does my wife. But we are sure as hell voting this time around to get Obama out of the White house and get someone in who isnt going to put men like Eric Holder into positions of authority.
As we can all see in the news my wife and I are NOT the only ones who are sick and tired of corruption in this administration.

[Zorro]

I have always suspected the reason for this provision was to keep the gun laws under a weak and easily pushed around agency. Good luck pushing the FBI around. I believe the NRA doesn't want the gun laws going to the FBI. Now this is only a theory.

More than a theory as you will find many who will tell you exactly that and I used to be on board with it myself but time for the circus to go on the road, hopefully shedding some weight along the way.

[PetePark1811]

I have always suspected the reason for this provision was to keep the gun laws under a weak and easily pushed around agency. Good luck pushing the FBI around. I believe the NRA doesn't want the gun laws going to the FBI. Now this is only a theory.

1811 is correct - at least at the moment:

Transfer of BATFE Authority. A prohibition on the use of funds to transfer any duty or responsibility of the BATFE to any other agency or department. This provision was written in response to a Clinton Administration plan to transfer firearms enforcement to the FBI or Secret Service. It also prohibits the Executive branch from skirting the will of Congress by allowing another agency to implement policies the BATFE is prohibited from implementing.

http://www.nraila.or...ad.aspx?id=7180

What's best for the taxpayers and law abiding gun owners isn't necessarily what's best for fund raising.

[Excalibur-2112]

Being a gun owner and an avid supporter of gun rights and gun rights groups....and being on top of a lot of current events I can say that there is a LOT of talk about pressing congress to defund the BATFE altogether.
I dont know much about the prohibition of transfer of authority, but it seems to me that such a prohibition becomes moot in a case of defunding.
The bad thing about this F/F issue....well, one of many....is that even non gun owners eyebrows are starting to rise.
With WACO the non gun owner sorts I know just attributed it all to nuts with guns who had to be taken down before something worse happened. At least that was the general impression by many...not that those were the exact facts.

But with F/F and the gun walking coming to light more and more in the mainstream media, then having Obamas appointee Eric Holder appearing to be holding the bag...ie his constant attempts to deflect and stonewall which ISNT helping the man look innocent but far more guilty than we'd have first thought....much of the public isnt just seeing this as a 'nuts with guns' issue now. Many are seeing it as a huge political problem that the BATFE is directly to blame for.
Gun issues most people who dont own guns just ignore. But a political one is a whole different ball game.
People that would have brushed off WACO without a second thought are really taking notice of F/F.
I know a lot of non gun owners and when WACO happened it was just a news story to them. But they are taking F/F VERY seriously now that so much has come out.

God help us if it is shown at some point that Holder, Obama and others like Napolitano KNEW about and directed F/F because my guess is that, like the last elections, there could be such an uproar that voters get disgusted with the liberal agenda and vote so many Republicans in that there is an horrible imbalance.
The one good thing about a two party system is that the infighting keeps the extremism at bay.
Id be VERY fearful if one party or the other had such a stranglehold on politics for even two years....let alone 4 or more.

The timing of all this couldnt be worse given we're going into campaign season again.
I want Obama and his dupes out of the WH, but the checks and balances inherent to the system are going to be torn down for a long while if this has a direct effect on other elections and people vote, not for the best person for the job, but just to get liberals out entirely.

Im a very strict conservative, but it does seem that a conservative democrat is often the best, well rounded personality type in politics rather than a republican. Just an opinion, however.
An American government run strictly by Democrats or Republicans scares the hell out of me.
But if Big O gets implicated in F/F it could very easily happen that Rep's are running this country for 4 years....in both the states and DC.
Not exactly something Im looking forward to.

If something like that did happen one has to wonder what would the situation with the BATFE be?
Would the party in charge do what they had been voted in for and defund the BATFE ?

[PetePark1811]

Wow. Sorry, I didn't know you were so sensitive. I just said I thought you were hilarious and thanks for helping me make my point. I will leave you alone, but I will miss you.

Vince and Sandy....petepark has started his assault in my personal area. I deleted it but is there any way you guys could tell this ass to pretend I dont exist?

[Excalibur-2112]

Vince and Sandy....peterparker has started his assault in my personal area. I deleted it but is there any way you guys could tell this ass to pretend I dont exist?

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Thanks for the apology. We will all do better if we pull in the same direction. We all love this Bureau. I assure you me and Charlie are good. If we weren't, he'd be the first to tell me to my face. Charlie and I go back 25 yrs. I think Charlie is and always has been one of the best we have. That's not to say we haven't mixed it up over the years. V

Our friend from New Orleans who is now in Texas, but you are right. That would be a rumor. I did not speak with him directly. I apologize.