200 replies to this topic

[PetePark1811]

Our friend from New Orleans who is now in Texas, but you are right. That would be a rumor. I did not speak with him directly. I apologize.

I too agree, identify rumors as rumors and back fact with sworn testimony or documentary and corroborated evidence which is what we TRY to do in each and every case. On that note, I know SEVERAL Charlies, and have NOT had it out recently with any of them. Please feel free to elaborate, or at least follow your own edict, identify it as a rumor, because that's all it is. Now, Pete, Excalibur and anyone else who has diminished this debate you all have created, to foul language, juvenile tit for tat, PLEASE use the internal email on here or exchange personal emails and continue this opinionated, substance less and childish debate outside the public's view. This website is effecting change, and the public, headquarters, the media and our Agents are watching this foolishness. So please grant my request and keep it civil and relevant to changing ATF for the better, or I'll ask the webmaster to archive this silliness if it continues Regards and Merry Christmas Vince

[PetePark1811]

Wow! Is it really that difficult to just say, I will try to keep my facts straight. I will try to call rumor what they are, just rumors. I will call theories what they are, just theories. If I have a wild conspiracy theory, I will just keep it to myself. Simple.
Merry Christmas!

Thats a very interesting revelation. Something is amiss here.

I do apologize, Vincent.
I realized last evening that I should not have used my typical debate manner here on your forum. You guys are the last people on earth I want to think of me as a troll.
I am adding pete to my ignore list so I assure you this wont be a problem again. I'll do so again in the future with anyone who seems to have the same frame of mind that he does so there wont be a repeat here.
I admit my tactics in a discussion are very aggressive, they are very effective, just entirely inappropriate for this forum.
I hope I have not caused any of you here who I respect and admire to think worse of me.

[Excalibur-2112]

I too agree, identify rumors as rumors and back fact with sworn testimony or documentary and corroborated evidence which is what we TRY to do in each and every case. On that note, I know SEVERAL Charlies, and have NOT had it out recently with any of them. Please feel free to elaborate, or at least follow your own edict, identify it as a rumor, because that's all it is. Now, Pete, Excalibur and anyone else who has diminished this debate you all have created, to foul language, juvenile tit for tat, PLEASE use the internal email on here or exchange personal emails and continue this opinionated, substance less and childish debate outside the public's view. This website is effecting change, and the public, headquarters, the media and our Agents are watching this foolishness. So please grant my request and keep it civil and relevant to changing ATF for the better, or I'll ask the webmaster to archive this silliness if it continues Regards and Merry Christmas Vince

Thats a very interesting revelation. Something is amiss here.

I do apologize, Vincent.
I realized last evening that I should not have used my typical debate manner here on your forum. You guys are the last people on earth I want to think of me as a troll.
I am adding pete to my ignore list so I assure you this wont be a problem again. I'll do so again in the future with anyone who seems to have the same frame of mind that he does so there wont be a repeat here.
I admit my tactics in a discussion are very aggressive, they are very effective, just entirely inappropriate for this forum.
I hope I have not caused any of you here who I respect and admire to think worse of me.

[Excalibur-2112]

edit.
Vince, I guess I was writing this while you were posting your last post.
Let me know if it should be deleted or edited.

Eleanor, is that you?

I'm finding it hard to believe that an agent would go out of his way to this extent to insult someone who is asking legitimate questions while being supportive of those who are working so hard to correct this nightmare that is ATF. Reminds me of the old 'ATF TRUTH TELLER' - are you back now? I don't know of a single agent who is on the side of the good guys who would put so much effort in making CleanUp appear to be a joke.

Excalibur, please stay with us, your opinions, your support, and your input are appreciated. I also don't believe that Pete is the agent he claims to be.

Im going to put him on ignore to avoid any more interaction with him directly.

One thing is clear, Sandy, this guy doesnt comprehend that a THEORY is simply a concept to EXPLAIN the FACTS/DETAILS as they are OBSERVED.
For instance the FACT is that the BATFE let guns run across the border into Mexico. The THEORY could be that Eric Holder and Obama planned it all along.
That THEORY does not negate the FACT that guns WERE 'run/sent/allowed' to cross the border with the BATFE's knowledge and even facilitating it.

Its VERY telling that he has belittled the work of you all here by continually calling this all a 'theory' (which to me indicates that the guy doesnt even know what the hell a theory is to begin with) and making it appear that even you agents here are lying about the facts as you have seen them.
He doesnt seem to be able to figure out that the theory is in HIS own mind because HE hasnt spent the time doing the research...and HE hasnt experienced what you guys may have.

You guys here always have our support. You have proven your integrity by putting yourselves on the line, just one more point that this guy cant seem to figure out. Ive mentioned it a dozen times or so in hopes that the fog might finally clear, but apparently his agenda has him so brainwashed that he is incapable of comprehending that the most damning evidence in all of this is that the testimony of people like you guys is matching that of those in the private sector, namely gun store owners.
In a court of law this sort of evidence would very likely end in a conviction.

I will say this, given his complete lack of cognitive skills...and that he was so easily pushed into unprofessional behavior, somehow I seriously doubt he is what he claims he is as well.
God help us if he is actually an agent of some sort because if they are hiring people like this law enforcement is really taking a turn for the worse.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

I too agree, identify rumors as rumors and back fact with sworn testimony or documentary and corroborated evidence which is what we TRY to do in each and every case. On that note, I know SEVERAL Charlies, and have NOT had it out recently with any of them. Please feel free to elaborate, or at least follow your own edict, identify it as a rumor, because that's all it is. Now, Pete, Excalibur and anyone else who has diminished this debate you all have created, to foul language, juvenile tit for tat, PLEASE use the internal email on here or exchange personal emails and continue this opinionated, substance less and childish debate outside the public's view. This website is effecting change, and the public, headquarters, the media and our Agents are watching this foolishness. So please grant my request and keep it civil and relevant to changing ATF for the better, or I'll ask the webmaster to archive this silliness if it continues Regards and Merry Christmas Vince

Hey Sandy,
Maybe I just believe in practicing what you preach. They went after you and your supporters with lies, innuendoes and the old bullshit "lack of candor". I think we shouldn't do what they do. Twist and pervert the story to get what you want. Stick to facts. Simple concept. I am trying to be supportive. I am still in the trenches, not just sitting on a fence throwing hand grenades hoping something sticks. You are doing exactly what those you hate do. "You are either with us or against us." Let me tell you one simple fact. There are currently over 2,000 agents. I believe the majority believe this site is for conspiracy nuts and malcontents. It shouldn't be. It should be the site where the majority of agents come to express their opinions and share stories about the crap going on in ATF. By discouraging accurate reporting and encouraging anyone who claims to be the holder of all knowledge, you diminish us all. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe this site is for conspiracies. Vince, I know you recently had it out with Charlie. Are we now at the point where even your friends are suspect?

[PetePark1811]

No argument here. My only point this entire time has been to keep it accurate and factual. If it is something someone heard or rumor, say it just like that, "I heard", "I suspect" or "the rumor is". Don't make wild accusations unsupported by facts. Don't quote theories as facts. I probably have been guilty of doing this, but I am trying to be careful on how I phrase my posts. Keep it clean. I recently heard a "rumor" that all the SESs were told no bonuses this year by the Acting Director. If that is true, wow! Last year, very few bonuses were given out to the employees due to all the money being spent on the SESs bonuses. Now, for a secretary, we are only talking a few hundred dollars. For an SESs (this is true throughout Government) we are talking tens of thousand. If this is true, our Acting Director is being a Marine. In the USMC, an officer takes care of his troops first, before himself.

I have read this thread several times and being a reasonably smart guy I have no idea who is on what side of the argument, who has a personal agenda or who is just nuts. That all being said, the Southwest Border scandal has been brought to light by brave and curageous people and it is now in the national spotlight. Is there any real need to keep posting all the stuff below. There are other issues to focus on within ATF and I would hope that light can be brought upon those issues as successfuly as it was to Fast and Furious. The waste, fraud and abuse by senior managers continues to be a drain on this agency and it is time that more attention is paid to that. It is no less important and may even be more important to the future. Remember the Cadillac issue, or the Las Vegas junkets. Those were curbed because they were brought to light here. While seemingly small things, they were pieces to a larger problem. I am just suggesting that this site has made a difference, and that there are more issues to focus efforts on.

[Patriot]

I have read this thread several times and being a reasonably smart guy I have no idea who is on what side of the argument, who has a personal agenda or who is just nuts. That all being said, the Southwest Border scandal has been brought to light by brave and curageous people and it is now in the national spotlight. Is there any real need to keep posting all the stuff below. There are other issues to focus on within ATF and I would hope that light can be brought upon those issues as successfuly as it was to Fast and Furious. The waste, fraud and abuse by senior managers continues to be a drain on this agency and it is time that more attention is paid to that. It is no less important and may even be more important to the future. Remember the Cadillac issue, or the Las Vegas junkets. Those were curbed because they were brought to light here. While seemingly small things, they were pieces to a larger problem. I am just suggesting that this site has made a difference, and that there are more issues to focus efforts on.

[PetePark1811]

Hey Sandy,
Maybe I just believe in practicing what you preach. They went after you and your supporters with lies, innuendoes and the old bullshit "lack of candor". I think we shouldn't do what they do. Twist and pervert the story to get what you want. Stick to facts. Simple concept. I am trying to be supportive. I am still in the trenches, not just sitting on a fence throwing hand grenades hoping something sticks. You are doing exactly what those you hate do. "You are either with us or against us." Let me tell you one simple fact. There are currently over 2,000 agents. I believe the majority believe this site is for conspiracy nuts and malcontents. It shouldn't be. It should be the site where the majority of agents come to express their opinions and share stories about the crap going on in ATF. By discouraging accurate reporting and encouraging anyone who claims to be the holder of all knowledge, you diminish us all. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe this site is for conspiracies. Vince, I know you recently had it out with Charlie. Are we now at the point where even your friends are suspect?

Eleanor, is that you?

I'm finding it hard to believe that an agent would go out of his way to this extent to insult someone who is asking legitimate questions while being supportive of those who are working so hard to correct this nightmare that is ATF. Reminds me of the old 'ATF TRUTH TELLER' - are you back now? I don't know of a single agent who is on the side of the good guys who would put so much effort in making CleanUp appear to be a joke.

Excalibur, please stay with us, your opinions, your support, and your input are appreciated. I also don't believe that Pete is the agent he claims to be.

[PetePark1811]

DId you really delete those posts? They were hilarious. You were making such an ass clown of yourself, it was awesome. Please don't stop posting. You really put a smile on my face.

I really apologize to all of you others here, Sandy, Vince, etc...I dont know all your names.....but this guy is on planet 9 here.
in one breath he's saying he believes Agent Dodson and in the next he's dismissing the mans account indirectly by pretending its all a 'conspiracy theory' as he calls it.

You guys are great here and for myself I appreciate all that you have done for this country and for law enforcement.
Im going to leave this particular discussion alone at this point out of respect for this forum and its members because I know how this discussion is going to go already based on how its been going. My tactics often get me labelled as a troll and I certainly dont want you wonderful people here thinking that I am one.
The fact is it would be easy as hell to lead this guy down a path in this discussion and make him look like a complete fool. He's already tripping over his own feet and I dont feel it necessary to take this any further. The point has been made well enough.

Heres to hoping that all goes well for all of you who put yourselves on the line for truth, honor and integrity.
This country is better for your being part of it.

I just cant get over this...

EDIT.
Ive deleted a lot of my posts because I really should not have gotten involved with this.
Im probably just going to stop posting here entirely at this point.
This entire F/F issue is a pretty sore topic for many Americans, both because of what it shows about some in government and law enforcement...and because we've read your stories, such as Agent Dodsons, and it pisses many of us off that our fellow Americans have to deal with what many of you have.
Ive dealt with morally bankrupt managers in my line of work before and even on a level that I am at as a normal joe they can make your life a living hell. I cant imagine what some of you have had to deal with.
Having someone who is in denial claim that you all are lying and 'not smart enough' just makes matters worse.
I am not going to keep reading and posting here while someone is allowed to basically call you guys liars and trivialize what you have gone through.

And Im sorry.
I DO get defensive/protective over cops/law enforcement in general. I see what you guys go thru facing the bad guys every day and to see that youre getting mistreated from those above you just makes it worse.
I find myself being very watchful when I see a LEO who has someone pulled over and it looks suspicious. I often get pulled over so I can be ready to call 911 or help in any way I can if something goes south for the officer. It just sickens me that you guys put yourselves in danger and this is how you get repaid.
I honestly dont know how you guys do the jobs you do. There is something special about a person who can put their lives on the line for others like you do.

God bless you all who are doing the right thing here and standing up for the Constitution and this country.

[PetePark1811]

Hey Simple Jack,
You only see what you want. I honestly think you can barely read. I know you can't write. I am an ATF agent. When I made the comment that I didn't believe that they (ATF) are that smart, I was talking about the 5th floor. It would be pretty clear to any sane person following the discussion. Your debating skills only exists in your head. Having a tea party with your stuffed animals doesn't count as a debate. Your claimed assistance to law enforcement make me believe that you have yellow lights on your Pacer and drive up and down your neighborhood saving cats. I can picture you right now in your safety vest. You refuse to acknowledge the single point I am trying to make and go off the deep end. Don't make wild unfounded accusations. It makes you look like a nut. If you have a theory, call it that. Just a theory. Stick with the facts or you end up looking like a, well, you. Please don't stop posting. Your posts have been hilarious. I love the fact that you stayed up this late and risked losing your TV privileges. Saying I believe Dodson's account seems pretty clear. I also believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I guess if you have been living in your mom's basement and living on conspiracies, you might have a different interpretation. In your "Special World", I guess if I believe Dobson's account, I have to believe everything else you have been spouting. I am not a fan of Obama or Holder. I think it will be great if actual evidence comes to light exposes Holder was involved. But until that happens, I choose to use words like, "I find it highly unlikely that Holder wasn't briefed on F&F". Also Mr. IQ of 144, this site was set up to help clean up ATF, not for conspiracy theorist to sit around and jerk each other off. You can have wild and crazy theories. Hell, I remember all the theories the conspiracy nuts had about Waco, Oklahoma, 9/11, the war in Iraqi and President Bush. I would say you are falling in the same trap, but I think I am a little late. Again, please don't go away. You are proving my point with every post. You read only what you want and then make huge jumps in a logical thought process. "ATF Smuggled Guns into Mexico". - Awesome! Keep them coming and I will keep laughing. You really can't help yourself can you? Don't forget, you never go full retard.

acquisations
Clearly it is YOU who cannot read and comprehend a post..
I warned you early on how I debate.
'I believe' is far too non committal for my purposes.

"I believe the mailman will come tomorrow"
And then when he doesnt I can play a game of 'I didnt say he WOULD, just that I BELIEVED he would'
Do you see the difference?
I doubt it.

[Excalibur-2112]

I really apologize to all of you others here, Sandy, Vince, etc...I dont know all your names.....but this guy is on planet 9 here.
in one breath he's saying he believes Agent Dodson and in the next he's dismissing the mans account indirectly by pretending its all a 'conspiracy theory' as he calls it.

You guys are great here and for myself I appreciate all that you have done for this country and for law enforcement.
Im going to leave this particular discussion alone at this point out of respect for this forum and its members because I know how this discussion is going to go already based on how its been going. My tactics often get me labelled as a troll and I certainly dont want you wonderful people here thinking that I am one.
The fact is it would be easy as hell to lead this guy down a path in this discussion and make him look like a complete fool. He's already tripping over his own feet and I dont feel it necessary to take this any further. The point has been made well enough.

Heres to hoping that all goes well for all of you who put yourselves on the line for truth, honor and integrity.
This country is better for your being part of it.

I just cant get over this...

I just don't think that they (ATF) are that smart.

EDIT.
Ive deleted a lot of my posts because I really should not have gotten involved with this.
Im probably just going to stop posting here entirely at this point.
This entire F/F issue is a pretty sore topic for many Americans, both because of what it shows about some in government and law enforcement...and because we've read your stories, such as Agent Dodsons, and it pisses many of us off that our fellow Americans have to deal with what many of you have.
Ive dealt with morally bankrupt managers in my line of work before and even on a level that I am at as a normal joe they can make your life a living hell. I cant imagine what some of you have had to deal with.
Having someone who is in denial claim that you all are lying and 'not smart enough' just makes matters worse.
I am not going to keep reading and posting here while someone is allowed to basically call you guys liars and trivialize what you have gone through.

And Im sorry.
I DO get defensive/protective over cops/law enforcement in general. I see what you guys go thru facing the bad guys every day and to see that youre getting mistreated from those above you just makes it worse.
I find myself being very watchful when I see a LEO who has someone pulled over and it looks suspicious. I often get pulled over so I can be ready to call 911 or help in any way I can if something goes south for the officer. It just sickens me that you guys put yourselves in danger and this is how you get repaid.
I honestly dont know how you guys do the jobs you do. There is something special about a person who can put their lives on the line for others like you do.

God bless you all who are doing the right thing here and standing up for the Constitution and this country.

[Excalibur-2112]

Simple Jack,
I wrote that the first time, but you didn't take the time to read my post. You really are stupid. Having tea with your stuffed animals is not a debate, it's just sad. I suspect you are use to absolute commitments. In law enforcement we call it an involuntary commitment, which in your case, probably led to being adjudicated mentally incompetent. Sooo funny. You really think you are a genius.

Clearly it is YOU who cannot read and comprehend a post..
I warned you early on how I debate.
'I believe' is far too non committal for my purposes.

"I believe the mailman will come tomorrow"
And then when he doesnt I can play a game of 'I didnt say he WOULD, just that I BELIEVED he would'
Do you see the difference?
I doubt it.

The reason I asked you again, which SHOULD have been obvious to all but the incompetent, was that I was doing precisely what I cautioned you about...pushing you until I get an absolute commitment out of you.

'I believe' is simply a profession of faith..not concrete enough for you to not be able to wiggle out of later...which I figure you will pull at some point as you have already been wavering since you began here in this thread.

Friend, Ive been debating for years. I know how to dissect an argument and I know how to lead you where I want you to go in a debate.
Ive only been up front with you about it here because I felt sorry for you after reading some of your posts.

[Excalibur-2112]

Hey Simple Jack,
You still don't get it. I find it highly unlikely that Eric Holder didn't know about F&F. I hope they appoint a Special Prosecutor. Now there is the rub with you. I want someone assigned to get to the bottom of this cluster and you want to go ahead and make unfounded statements.

You mean statements like 'I believe John Dodson" ?
Or that gun store owners accounts that Ive HEARD myself line up with Dodsons details ?
So youre claiming that John Dodsons account is 'unfounded statements' ?

You have to be doing just that, friend, based on your incessant rantings in this thread.....and yet you believe the man, supposedly.

Ignore everything else and go down the rabbit hole. You really are making my point for me and you still don't see it. I probably agree with 90% of you theories, but I choose to call them unsubstantiated theories. You call them facts because you want them to be. By claiming them to be fact, you make yourself out to be a nut. Now, back to crazy town.

I asked you a CLEAR, EASY question, friend.
ARE those videos 'verifiable' as far as trustworthy or NOT?
Were the scripted and acted out by liars....or by men in congress and law enforcement and so ARE reliable sources for data?
I can ask for as long as it takes.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c...KDmQgKo8YT-CZT6

http://www.youtube.c...RGr87AAJElaGWRk

I probably agree with 90% of you theories, but I choose to call them unsubstantiated theories.

Then you are deluded.
You JUST SAID you believe Dodson.
Are you claiming that Dodson is merely presenting what you call a 'theory' and that it has no credibility even though the man is giving his EXPERIENCES that have transpired...things HE SAW and HEARD and was TOLD ?

Given that you say that you believe Dodson your statement above is pretty damned ironic because youre basically saying that you believe 'unsubstantiated theories' just as much as I do.

I believe DODSON.
Until you can PROVE that Dodson is a liar your asinine accusations against my 'theories' is laughable seeing that *I* AGREE with the man, not simply because of HIS testimony, but because of the OTHER testimony that supports his account.

now that YOU have said you believe Dodson you have no argument against MY 'theories' because my 'theories' are in agreement with Dodsons testimony itself that YOU BELIEVE.

[PetePark1811]

Simple Jack,
I wrote that the first time, but you didn't take the time to read my post. You really are stupid. Having tea with your stuffed animals is not a debate, it's just sad. I suspect you are use to absolute commitments. In law enforcement we call it an involuntary commitment, which in your case, probably led to being adjudicated mentally incompetent. Sooo funny. You really think you are a genius.

The reason I asked you again, which SHOULD have been obvious to all but the incompetent, was that I was doing precisely what I cautioned you about...pushing you until I get an absolute commitment out of you.

'I believe' is simply a profession of faith..not concrete enough for you to not be able to wiggle out of later...which I figure you will pull at some point as you have already been wavering since you began here in this thread.

Friend, Ive been debating for years. I know how to dissect an argument and I know how to lead you where I want you to go in a debate.
Ive only been up front with you about it here because I felt sorry for you after reading some of your posts.

[PetePark1811]

Hey Simple Jack,
You still don't get it. I find it highly unlikely that Eric Holder didn't know about F&F. I hope they appoint a Special Prosecutor. Now there is the rub with you. I want someone assigned to get to the bottom of this cluster and you want to go ahead and make unfounded statements. Ignore everything else and go down the rabbit hole. You really are making my point for me and you still don't see it. I probably agree with 90% of you theories, but I choose to call them unsubstantiated theories. You call them facts because you want them to be. By claiming them to be fact, you make yourself out to be a nut. Now, back to crazy town.

Another question I'd like you to answer, Spidey, is are these videos in these links presenting 'unverfied' information....meaning can we assume that the exchanges between the persons in these videos are 'untrustworthy' simply because they are links to websites?

You handwave away anything I have linked to, even though many of those links led directly to exchanges with men like Issa and Grassley who are actively involved in this investigation.
You pretend as though they are lacking in credibility simply because they are posted on youtube.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c...KDmQgKo8YT-CZT6

http://www.youtube.c...RGr87AAJElaGWRk


These content of the videos isn't relevant to the question, so please dont go 'nuts' and get onto another inane rant.
Im asking you if the AUDIENCE can watch those videos and feel certain that the events on those videos took place and werent staged by actors or some other crazy 'theory' you might come up with.

[Excalibur-2112]

I knew you couldn't spell, now I know you can't read. Pretty clear. I wrote, "I believe Dodson." Now from that, let's get on the crazy train and see where that amazing brain of yours take us. Will that prove that we never landed on the Moon or that space aliens killed Kennedy. Willy Wonka has nothing on you. Take me home Simple Jack! Be careful, your mom finds you're still on the computer after 10pm and there will be hell to pay. I would hate to be responsible for you losing out on Sloppy Joe Thursday.

And thanks for cautioning me that "I am doing what I do?" Wow! That is so funny, I can't even respond. Hold on, are you using bad grammar to make me look like an idiot. Damn it! I just can't keep up with your IQ. You are probably pooping your pants right now to make me look like a zebra. Sheer genius.

The reason I asked you again, which SHOULD have been obvious to all but the incompetent, was that I was doing precisely what I cautioned you about...pushing you until I get an absolute commitment out of you.

'I believe' is simply a profession of faith..not concrete enough for you to not be able to wiggle out of later...which I figure you will pull at some point as you have already been wavering since you began here in this thread.

Friend, Ive been debating for years. I know how to dissect an argument and I know how to lead you where I want you to go in a debate.
Ive only been up front with you about it here because I felt sorry for you after reading some of your posts.

[Excalibur-2112]

I believe Dodson.

I'm going to go ahead and go with this admission because I seriously doubt you're going to give any real answer about whether Dodson is a liar or not.


So...you believe John Dodson....thats correct?

If so, then you believe HIS ACCOUNT of the details about the BATFE and gun walking into Mexico, correct?
Come on now, you said you believe Dodson, dont backpeddle now.

SINCE YOU BELIEVE Dodson you MUST believe what he is claiming about the BATFE and these guns let walk.
So how the the f'ing hell can you sit here and even pretend to ramble on about THEORIES and my/our 'unverified' information when YOU BELIEVE what John Dodson has presented?

If YOU believe him, as *I* believe him...and his account is VERIFIED by outside sources such as GUN STORE OWNERS who the BATFE worked with to facilitate sales to straw buyers, then you clearly are insane in even claiming that *I* am coming up with 'conspiracy theories' given that YOU HAVE to believe exactly what *I* believe...which is that John Dodson IS telling the truth.

Youve rambled on for a couple pages now trying to dismiss MY research....research which has concluded that John Dodson ISNT a liar but IS telling the truth....then you have the audacity to sit here and tell me that YOU BELIEVE JOHN DODSON.

If anyone here has lost all credibility, sir, it is YOU.
You cant even keep your train of thought straight.
It is FRIGHTENING that someone with your very clear lack of discernment and cognitive skills would be in law enforcement in any capacity other than possibly a janitor or doorman.

[PetePark1811]

I knew you couldn't spell, now I know you can't read. Pretty clear. I wrote, "I believe Dodson." Now from that, let's get on the crazy train and see where that amazing brain of yours take us. Will that prove that we never landed on the Moon or that space aliens killed Kennedy. Willy Wonka has nothing on you. Take me home Simple Jack! Be careful, your mom finds you're still on the computer after 10pm and there will be hell to pay. I would hate to be responsible for you losing out on Sloppy Joe Thursday.

And thanks for cautioning me that "I am doing what I do?" Wow! That is so funny, I can't even respond. Hold on, are you using bad grammar to make me look like an idiot. Damn it! I just can't keep up with your IQ. You are probably pooping your pants right now to make me look like a zebra. Sheer genius.

I'll ask you again, mr Holder;
Yes....or....no.
Is the man a liar or not.

[Excalibur-2112]

Another question I'd like you to answer, Spidey, is are these videos in these links presenting 'unverfied' information....meaning can we assume that the exchanges between the persons in these videos are 'untrustworthy' simply because they are links to websites?

You handwave away anything I have linked to, even though many of those links led directly to exchanges with men like Issa and Grassley who are actively involved in this investigation.
You pretend as though they are lacking in credibility simply because they are posted on youtube.








These content of the videos isn't relevant to the question, so please dont go 'nuts' and get onto another inane rant.
Im asking you if the AUDIENCE can watch those videos and feel certain that the events on those videos took place and werent staged by actors or some other crazy 'theory' you might come up with.

[Excalibur-2112]

I'll ask you again, mr Holder;
Yes....or....no.
Is the man a liar or not.

Spiderman....Im going to make this VERY easy for you.

Watch this and then answer yes or no if John Dodson is a liar or not.


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SvRzrSXota8


Just answer the goddam question.
My question to YOU is "IS John Dodson a liar or not?"

My guess is your answer will resemble some bullshit like we've seen from Eric Holder.


And let me caution you again that I'm doing what I do.

[PetePark1811]

Sweet! You ignore the response and go straight back to insults. Thanks. Now, as far as Dodson is concerned, what does that have to do with you being a complete nut? I confront you over specific issues and you go crazy. You take one actual fact and then jump off a cliff with your crazy. I believe Dodson. What does that have to do with you and your crazy conspiracies. You take that fact and now go full retard. You only discredit yourself and prove my point. Thanks. You really do make me laugh. Again, you are our own little version of Rosie O'Donnell and Charlie Sheen. Conspiracy nuts can find conspiracies everywhere. Obama made your Hot Pocket burn your mouth. Eric Holder made your blow up sex doll pop (or as you called it - divorce). Stay focused. Don't let the voices in your head take over. You have plenty of facts to focus on. Don't let the crazy take over. I don't know John Dodson personally, but I do know Forcelli and he is a cop's cop. I have worked with Vince and Jay. Leave the false accusations to ATF upper management. Stick to the facts.
That being said. I can't wait to hear the next insane crap that comes from your genius IQ of 144. I still think you have an IQ of at least 145. Hell, you are probably so smart you didn't have to go to college. Those guys couldn't teach someone as smart as you anything. My favorite is your use of bad grammar to expose my stupidity or your skill with the caps and fonts. Now, I have got to go solve some math equations, then mop the floors. How do ya like them apples.

Spiderman....Im going to make this VERY easy for you.

Watch this and then answer yes or no if John Dodson is a liar or not.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SvRzrSXota8

Just answer the goddam question.
My question to YOU is "IS John Dodson a liar or not?"

My guess is your answer will resemble some bullshit like we've seen from Eric Holder.

[Excalibur-2112]

Spiderman....Im going to make this VERY easy for you.

Watch this and then answer yes or no if John Dodson is a liar or not.





Just answer the goddam question.
My question to YOU is "IS John Dodson a liar or not?"

My guess is your answer will resemble some bullshit like we've seen from Eric Holder.


And let me caution you again that I'm doing what I do.

[Excalibur-2112]

2. GUN STORE OWNERS GAVE THEIR ACCOUNT (which I have READ)
2. BATFE AGENTS GAVE THEIR ACCOUNT (which I have READ)
4. BOTH ACCOUNTS AGREE.

BATFE AGENTS ARE NOT GOING TO ENDANGER THEIR CAREERS OVER A LIE.

[Excalibur-2112]

I know more about F&F now than I ever wanted. The more I learn, the more I wish I didn't know. I am not getting my information off some website, but from speaking with my co-workers who were there. Trust me, ATF isn't putting out a lot of information through official channels. Now, let's see if you can respond like an adult.

your coworkers?
How about talking to the people HERE on THIS forum
THEY know far more than most do. As far as I understand it some of them have lost their jobs over speaking out.

[Excalibur-2112]

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[Excalibur-2112]

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[PetePark1811]

I think they call it self control. Just have your mom take away your computer privilege. If she catches you on the computer, no Hot Pockets. You really do live in your mom's basement, don't you.

By all that is holy...could a moderator or admin here PLEASE tell me to stop posting here so I can resist the temptation to keep coming into this thread talking to this idiot?

[PetePark1811]

Gosh, for someone who has never taken a defendant to trial and won a conviction, you sure are full of "something." We come up with theories all the time. The judge or jury decides based upon the evidence we present if our theory proves the charges presented and warrants a conviction. The best way to make a crazy conspiracy stick is to sprinkle it with a little truth. The poor process of logic that you are conducting is probably pretty close to the process Newell, Gillette and Voth used to come up with F&F. Now that is only a theory. It is based upon observation and unverified stories in the news. Stick with real facts, not with the story you have already come up with in your head. Wait for the facts to be presented. You are doing exactly the same conspiracy stuff that the 9/11, Waco, Oklahoma City and Iraqi War nuts promote. They come up with their conclusion and then search out facts to support their story. It is the same process that ATF upper management has used to go after employees. They come up with a conclusion and then try to come up with facts to support their conclusion. If a criminal investigation was conducted the same way you have put out your conspiracies theories, a lot of innocent people would go to jail. I can tell you a lot of the time the first suspect we come up with in an arson doesn't end up being our defendant. The owner of the property is always our first suspect, but then you keep your eyes open and find out someone else set the fire. Same is true in a homicide. Your first suspect is the spouse. Sometime you are right, but you have to keep your mind open. You jump out front and accuse the spouse and it turns out later that you were wrong. Now you have lost all credibility and it makes everyone suspicious of all your investigations. I am not teasing you. I am giving you one more chance. When you make wild, unfounded, unsubstantiated accusations, everyone writes you off as a nut. You might end up being right here or there, but the damage is already done. You are discounted as a nut. Right or wrong, you are discounted as a nut. I know more about F&F now than I ever wanted. The more I learn, the more I wish I didn't know. I am not getting my information off some website, but from speaking with my co-workers who were there. Trust me, ATF isn't putting out a lot of information through official channels. Now, let's see if you can respond like an adult.

Again, a THEORY simply EXPLAINS the OBSERVED FACTS and DETAILS.
Calling it a THEORY does NOT NULLIFY those FACTS.
Clearly this simple concept is a bit over your head or you wouldnt keep using 'theory' as if it actually meant something.

Detectives have THEORIES about crimes committed that take the FACTS and DETAILS into account....its how its done.
Hell, Id bet most of the BATFE agents here on this forum are very good at coming up with THEORIES to EXPLAIN the FACTS/DETAILS as they are observed. Judges do it EVERY goddam day in the courtroom. As do police detectives....and Im betting most of the time they can figure out just what happened in a crime by doing so.
When I divorced my first wife the judge had two stories. Mine and my exs. By examining the FACTS and DETAILS as he had them he came up with a THEORY that my ex wife was a cheating tramp who endangered our child. He wasnt THERE, so anything he knew was second hand or worse.
Based on TESTIMONY the judge came up with a THEORY about what had transpired and because of his THEORY about what happened he denied my ex's divorce case and I won.

THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.
We have BATFE agents HERE ON THIS SITE who KNOW many details of F/F and who have spoken out.
Doing what a detective or judge would do we add all those accounts up and come up with a THEORY to explain what all those facts/details.

Is any of this getting through?
My guess is you couldnt get through a THEORY of Evolution science class if you had to.




What a moron.
The special prosecutor would be DRAWING CONCLUSIONS AND COMING UP WITH THEORIES THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE IS, DIPSHIT!
Youd have to pull the same shit with anything HE concluded just like you do here.



Unlike your dipshittedness I have actually put in the research time.
I was on this story and putting out "theories" on my websites well before the NRA even got to the point where they'd even mention it.
And every step of the way its all come to light that what I figured was correct.

I realize your dumb ass cant figure this out but when Gun store owners and BATFE agents risking their jobs stories agree then whatever they are saying is the truth.
To say otherwise is to claim that the BATFE agents here on this forum would NEEDLESSLY risk their jobs for NO DAMNED REASON.
Way above that inbred brain of yours, I know...

[Excalibur-2112]

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[Excalibur-2112]

And really, you show me this many high level ATF managers, attorneys, presidential appointees, politicians, and I'll show you some conspiracies going on.

Absolutely agree.
The innocent man doesnt need to hide anything.

Obama recently sealed Brian Terry's murder case.
Now WHY would there be any need to do that unless it was to hide something?

Couple that with the DEA getting caught recently laundering the drug cartel's money, and it's no wonder people start to think that there's no way this could all be a big mistake. Now is it possible it was just a big screw up? Sure, anything is possible, but I believe it's pretty unlikely. At least unlikely enough to refrain from stating that the people who think it's something more are making crazy leaps in logic.

Agreed again.
When there are this many officials involved and when you have a website like this one here where BATFE agents are trying to right all the wrongs, putting themselves at risk, it is inconceivable that they are lying about it, especially when their accounts match the gun store owners accounts...which is one of the most damning pieces of evidence in this entire issue.

No way in hell you get BATFE agents to put their careers on the line to conspire with gun store owners in a lie.
Anyone who would believe these agents would is in serious need of psychiatric help.

These are good men and women on this forum.
Ive read on this forum for a pretty long time now and compared a lot of what is said here to data from gun store owner accounts, Charles Grassley and Darryl Issa and their investigation and the more I have researched it all the more I see that it IS all pointing a lot higher than just some rogue group in AZ.

Too many people have put their own credibility on the line on this story for it NOT to be true.
That some here cant accept that is simply irrelevant.

[Excalibur-2112]

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[Excalibur-2112]

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[PetePark1811]

I would say "Don't go away mad, just go away", but you are just too funny. How is your mom? Does she know you are on the internet after dark? Learning to stick with facts is something you will never understand. This is the same crazy that allows Rosie O'Donnell to accuse President Bush of blowing up the WTC on 9/11. Simple Jack can't help himself. He loves to go Full Retard. By the way, I love your use of bad grammar. Again, your genius has drawn me into your trap. Are you sure your IQ is only 144. I would have bet it was 145 1/2. Well, back to the work. These floors aren't going to mop themselves. Please don't stop posting. You really do make me laugh!

Sorry dipshit, but I have been sticking to facts.

The rest of your post was just too goddam irrelevant to bother responding to...

[PetePark1811]

FIrst, love the name! Thanks for finding this discussion entertaining. My only point the entire time was to stick to the fact, not crazy theories. I want F&F to be investigated by a Special Prosecutor so the investigation will go where the evidence takes it. Not wannabe nuts making wild accusations which takes away from the real discussion. When members make wild accusations on this website, it takes away from the credibility of legitimate discussions and allows others to label this site a forum for conspiracy nuts. This site is serving a purpose. By sticking to facts, we can become a positive force for change in ATF. By making crazy leaps in logic, we only help those who don't want F&F, ATF or DOJ to be investigated. We only discredit ourselves. On the other hand, this discussion with Mr. IQ of 144 has been hilarious. Now, back to crazy!

[Excalibur-2112]

Aside from the personal attacks this has been an interesting debate.

I guess it is possible that there is not something more sinister at play here than a complete and total screwup that had tragic results. But to believe this at this point we would have to believe that we have this many people in power in this government who are this screwed up. If it were just ATF I could buy into this a little better. Let's face it, ATF is the poster child for screwed-up managers, but like Excaliber, I've having a very hard time at his point, given how high up this goes and how many are involved in covering all this up, that it isn't something more sinister than a botched operation. And no Pete, nothing is proven, but this isn't a court of law and I think to give the government the benefit of the doubt at this stage is somewhat naive.

I do agree Pete, this needs to be investiagated until every last rat has been run out of the woodpile and we have all the answers. I just think we are going to find more rats and bigger rats in this woodpile than you do. But I am not only retarded, I am their leader.

I seriously believe that when its all said and done that Big O himself will be inplicated....ie his 'under the radar' gun control.
No way in hell we EVER get an admission from him, Holder...or anyone else that high up because this being an act of war against Mexico, it would mean that our president and his dupes themselves committed it, not just some out of control low level agent whose actions were simply missed somehow.

If its low level, we fix the error.
If its the White House, Mexico realizes just how treacherous our entire goddam leadership is.
I absolutely love being an American.
Just as absolute is my hatred for corruption in leadership.

[Excalibur-2112]

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[Excalibur-2112]

Right from the horses mouth;


As Big O says...if they had nothing to hide, they wouldnt be trying to.
An innocent man will trip all over himself trying to get the facts out to prove himself innocent.

[PetePark1811]

Run Forrest Run!
Simple Jack (with an IQ of 144). Thanks again for making my point. Learning to stick with facts is something you are unable to comprehend . You choose to follow the rabbit down the well and we get to see how a nutty conspiracy mind really works. I was making the point that we need to be careful and stick with fact, call allegations what they are, allegations and call dumb ass conspiracy theories, well "Excalibur-2112's". I don't know if you are meaning to help me make my point or you are just Full Retard. You have had a tough morning in your mom's basement. Have her make you another Hot Pocket, then put the foil hat back on.
Again, thanks for the help and even more, thanks for just making everyone laugh. I keep getting emails from agents who find you very entertaining. Please don't stop. I can't wait to laugh at your next response. Please tell me some more "facts" about how smart you are, how you use bad grammar to expose losers and what you have been doing full time for the past 9 months. I really can't get enough of you. Please don't stop making me look like an idiot. "my favorite is the tag ling on all your posts that you use caps not to yell, but to make your points." Priceless! Next, tell me how you use profanity to show your superior intellect.
Merry Christmas!
Pete

ATFs JOB is to stop those guns from going into Mexico.
THEY facilitated the purchase of those guns by bad guys when gun dealers knew something was up and informed them, and like it or not there IS evidence that even guys who should NOT have been able to buy the guns in the first place were given the ok to do so. Ive posted that evidence but since you arent interested in evidence, of course you cant connect the dots.
By facilitating the transport of these guns YES...they 'sent' them across the border.
Stop playing fucking semantics games, loser.



Blah, fucking blah blah...grow some goddam brain cells and get off the peyote....
That your moronic ass cant handle the evidence as a whole isnt my problem.



Holy shit....exactly what has been said here.
Since is THEIR job to stop these guns, they 'sent' them into Mexico.
That the uppers in BATFE KNEW about all this and INSTRUCTED low level field agents to ALLOW the guns to be transported they DID 'send' them into Mexico.
This is all just too much for those 4 remaining brain cells to absorb, isnt it.



non sequitor idiocy.



Just as I knew that your ignorant ass cant comprehend that calling something a 'theory' has no bearing on the matter in any way.
Again...a THEORY is a concept that EXPLAINS the DETAILS and FACTS as they are OBSERVED.
The theory itself is irrelevant..it DOES NOT CHANGE THE GODDAM FACTS!
CALLING it a theory DOES NOT NULLIFY what has OCCURRED.
Do YOU COMPREHEND?

Saying I have a conspiracy theory about gravity does NOT FUKKING STOP that pile of shit in my hand from falling to the ground when I drop it.
Saying we have a conspiracy theory about the BATFE or FBI DOES NOT NULLIFY that the BATFE FACILITATED the transport of illegal guns into Mexico.

DO YOU COMPREHEND????


Scarecrow...if you could only see your brainless ass from the outside in you'd probably shut the hell up and never speak again.
Frankly I feel like Im taking advantage of a mentally challenged nut in this thread.
Almost like winning a foot race against a legless woman.

Ive had to back off here because after reading your ramblings Im starting to feel sorry for you.
Which is actually pretty damned odd because generally I enjoy making idiots look like idiots.
But in your case Im beginning to feel guilty about it.

[Excalibur-2112]

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[PetePark1811]

Slow down genius. Now you take ATF not arresting suspected smugglers to ATF sending guns across the border. What ATF did was wrong. No argument. Stick to the fact. ATF didn't confront suspected smugglers and by not doing so, most likely allowed guns to be trafficked into Mexico. (you have to say it like that to be accurate in case some of the guns stayed in the US) I knew the next thing to come out of your mouth would be a dumb ass theory. You went full retard. I warned you, never go full retard. Again, thanks! You are proving my point and truly cracking me up! I don't know if you mean to be funny, but you are.

yeah...as if the ONLY information about this is there...so you cant possibly look for it ....convenient

What you are teaching me is something I already know....morons cant learn, nor do they want to.

There were 'allegations' about the BATFE sending guns across the border. Those 'allegations' have pretty much been proven.

I certainly hope you arent in any position where you have to decipher details and draw logical conclusions from them friend. Youre clearly not up for that sort of job.

And AGAIN, dipshit. a THEORY is a concept to EXPLAIN the observed FACTS.
The THEORY isnt the issue here.. the FACTS are.

[Excalibur-2112]

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[Excalibur-2112]

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[PetePark1811]

You make me laugh so hard. Thanks!

Hey genius,
It is illegal to access NCIC for personal business. Doesn't the indictment contain the information. It should state if they are convicted felons and when, where and what they purchased. It should be pretty detailed. See, I am teaching you the difference in a fact, an allegation and a crazy dumb ass theory. It will be a fact if they are or aren't a convicted felon. It will be an allegation that they have committed a crime. And the next thing that comes out of your mouth will be a crazy dumb ass theory. Remember, never go full retard.

[PetePark1811]

Hey genius,
It is illegal to access NCIC for personal business. Doesn't the indictment contain the information. It should state if they are convicted felons and when, where and what they purchased. It should be pretty detailed. See, I am teaching you the difference in a fact, an allegation and a crazy dumb ass theory. It will be a fact if they are or aren't a convicted felon. It will be an allegation that they have committed a crime. And the next thing that comes out of your mouth will be a crazy dumb ass theory. Remember, never go full retard.

here are the names again, loser.

Jacob Wayne Chambers
Sean Christopher Stewart

*IF* your royal dipshittedness is actually interested in FACTS you WiLL research these two names.
If not....well, we all know the reason why you wouldnt.

[Excalibur-2112]

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[PetePark1811]

Hey Simple Jack,
Do you even read your own responses or does the stupid just fall out of your head. Read your own posting here and you have to realize you are really dumb. Just because something is only an allegation does not nullify the potential for it to be factual. Wow! That is true. I heard for years about Santa Clause, so.... Same goes for the Easter Bunny. Let's stick with facts. Now, back to you Jane, you stupid bitch. (you aren't going to get this one either).

Friend, youre entire presence here is a joke.

What a dope. Just because something is 'only an allegation' does NOT NULLIFY the potential for it to be FACTUAL.
Jesus man, what damned planet are you living on?

The EVIDENCE shows that the FBI could very easily have been COMPLICIT in F/F.
That you cannot accept that reality is irrelevant. Reality it remains.

9 months ago few wanted to believe that the BATFE was guilty.
And today...HERE we are.

See how that works?