200 replies to this topic

[Excalibur-2112]

PetePark1811, on 20 December 2011 - 11:38 AM, said:

Outstanding.  Now that we have created "Future Crime" we can go ahead and have Tom Cruise become an ATF agent for Minority Report.  Oh, damn.  I forgot, the constitution prohibits us from just arresting someone for suspicion of a crime they may commit in the future.  That being said.  The past policy for over 30 years was to confront the suspect, try and get a confession.  If he refused, you warned him.  I will say again, read the excellent article from the National Association of Federal Agents.  It points out the difficulty in these cases.  You and I agree on a lot expect the crazy leaps of logic you choose to make.  When we use to follow the suspect in smuggling, we waited till they got to the border and let Customs take the case.  No violation occurred until they didn't declare and tried to cross.  Customs would arrest them.  Until that happens, no crime has occurred.  Just like you.  I am guessing you should be prohibited for being crazy, but you haven't been legally adjudicated mentally incompetent. Until that happens, you can still possess firearms.  PS - I think they might be questioning the FBI in regards to their CI buying guns.  I don't know this for a fact, so I am clarifying it is just a guess.  

No clue what the hell you are rambling on about there, Oz.


AGAIN....the BATFE agents and the GUN STORE OWNERS stories MATCH.
They were INSTRUCTED to make sales they knew were wrong to make (link) which now implicates the FBI and their NICS check and is precisely why the investigation is looking in that direction)

Again  by YOUR  fallacious comprehension of the FACTS....or lack of  understanding of  them entirely....the BATFE agents whose stories AGREED  with the GUN  STORE owners were CONSPIRING together to DESTROY their  CAREERS and  LIVES.

BATFE agents are NOT going to endanger their lives and careers for NOTHING, pal....

[PetePark1811]

Outstanding.  Now that we have created "Future Crime" we can go ahead and have Tom Cruise become an ATF agent for Minority Report.  Oh, damn.  I forgot, the constitution prohibits us from just arresting someone for suspicion of a crime they may commit in the future.  That being said.  The past policy for over 30 years was to confront the suspect, try and get a confession.  If he refused, you warned him.  I will say again, read the excellent article from the National Association of Federal Agents.  It points out the difficulty in these cases.  You and I agree on a lot expect the crazy leaps of logic you choose to make.  When we use to follow the suspect in smuggling, we waited till they got to the border and let Customs take the case.  No violation occurred until they didn't declare and tried to cross.  Customs would arrest them.  Until that happens, no crime has occurred.  Just like you.  I am guessing you should be prohibited for being crazy, but you haven't been legally adjudicated mentally incompetent. Until that happens, you can still possess firearms.  PS - I think they might be questioning the FBI in regards to their CI buying guns.  I don't know this for a fact, so I am clarifying it is just a guess.  

Excalibur-2112, on 20 December 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

Lets play a game, shall we?

Lets pretend for a moment that EVERY gun sale made was actually legal. What  the hell would that prove, friend?
It would ONLY argue the case of innocence for the GUN STORE owner and the FBI.....it does NOT do a damned thing to show that the BATFE who knew the guns ended up going south were innocent in the matter.
If they KNEW about them and KNEW they were going across the border the RESULT would be EXACTLY the SAME !

EVEN IF EVERY gun sale had been legal, which the evidence is not supporting, otherwise there would be NO need to even question the FBI, which is now being done....it does NOT nullify that the BATFE KNOWINGLY allowed guns to get into Mexico after they were purchased...and that BOTH GUN STORE OWNERS and BATFE AGENTS AGREE on the details.

See how easy that was ?

[Excalibur-2112]

Once more for you Pete...and I really want you to read it slowly this time around.....let it really sink in

Quote

AGAIN....the BATFE agents and the GUN STORE OWNERS stories MATCH.
They were INSTRUCTED to make sales they knew were wrong to make (link) which now implicates the FBI and their NICS check and is precisely why the investigation is looking in that direction)

Again  by YOUR fallacious comprehension of the FACTS....or lack of  understanding of them entirely....the BATFE agents whose stories AGREED  with the GUN STORE owners were CONSPIRING together to DESTROY their  CAREERS and LIVES.

DO YOU THINK WE ARE THAT IGNORANT that WE would believe such bullshit?

This point, in and of itself, is conclusive proof of what has gone on.
BATFE agents are NOT going to endanger their lives and careers for NOTHING, pal....

That rat running on the wheel yet? Smoke coming from your ears? keep thinking about it. Mull it over for a few moments....or weeks....it'll clear up soon enough, Im sure.

BATFE agents are NOT GOING to conspire with gun store owners to RUIN their lives and careers to make up a LIE that would in NO WAY benefit them otherwise.
ONLY if their stories are the TRUTH does any of this add up.

Think it thru.
It took me all of but about 10 seconds to get it. Maybe in a few months you will.

[Excalibur-2112]

PetePark1811, on 20 December 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

I find it sad you have dedicated the last 9 months of your life to this and still don't know even the most basic facts of the case.  

*I* find it sort of ironic that you came to a CLEANUP ATF website to basically call honest BATFE AGENTS LIARS

Quote

Just sad.  You should go on a vacation then come back and get the most  basic of facts straight.  Oh wait, you already made up your story and  nothing will make you open your mind.  Merry Christmas.

1. You have yet to refute my facts.
2. look at where you are posting, gent....on a site created by those who want the ATF CLEANED UP !

You are a living, breathing joke....

[Excalibur-2112]

deleted by poster.

[PetePark1811]

Just sad.  You should go on a vacation then come back and get the most basic of facts straight.  Oh wait, you already made up your story and nothing will make you open your mind.  Merry Christmas.

Excalibur-2112, on 20 December 2011 - 11:18 AM, said:

Wrong. *I* do not think the BATFE 'screwed up' in the way YOU do.
YOU think this was just a legitimate operation gone bad.
*I* know it was a purposeful operation that just got exposed....as do the agents on this forum who know what the facts are.

AGAIN....the BATFE agents and the GUN STORE OWNERS stories MATCH.
They were INSTRUCTED to make sales they knew were wrong to make (link) which now implicates the FBI and their NICS check and is precisely why the investigation is looking in that direction)

Again by YOUR fallacious comprehension of the FACTS....or lack of understanding of them entirely....the BATFE agents whose stories AGREED with the GUN STORE owners were CONSPIRING together to DESTROY their CAREERS and LIVES.

DO YOU THINK WE ARE THAT IGNORANT that WE would believe such bullshit?

This point, in and of itself, is conclusive proof of what has gone on.
BATFE agents are NOT going to endanger their lives and careers for NOTHING, pal.....

DO YOU comprehend?????

[PetePark1811]

I find it sad you have dedicated the last 9 months of your life to this and still don't know even the most basic facts of the case.  

Excalibur-2112, on 20 December 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

Sorry for all the additions and editing of my last two posts.
Im trying to be polite but this continue Brady drone mentality from some who clearly either dont know the facts....cant add up the facts....or just dont give a shit about the facts....is really getting old.
Then to have them assert that *I* dont know the facts is even more annoying given that the last 9 month of my life has been dedicated to the research of this issue.

[Excalibur-2112]

deleted by poster.

[Excalibur-2112]

deleted by poster.

[Excalibur-2112]

Sorry for all the additions and editing of my last two posts.
Im trying to be polite but this continue Brady drone mentality from some who clearly either dont know the facts....cant add up the facts....or just dont give a shit about the facts....is really getting old.
Then to have them assert that *I* dont know the facts is even more annoying given that the last 9 month of my life has been dedicated to the research of this issue.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Herein lie the problem. Unless and until all of those managers responsible, (and that includes DADs who "asked when are we gonna stop this", ie failure to report)are fired, forced into retirement, prosecuted or demoted, The Gillettes and Newells of the world will continue to brag that they can walk around HQ in their pajamas(Gillette) and nobody will dare say anything to them. News flash George, your feeble attempt at piggy backing the heros of F and F and their rightful protections under the Whistleblower Protection Act, will not protect you from the gross mismanagement, waste fraud and abuse, obstruction of Justice you own for years of violations. Again, why are these managers still in ANY sort of leadership positions at taxpayer expense? Remember the concept of "the appearence of inproporiety". As for the failure to report, EVERY senior manager who was intimately aware of what was occurring and failed to report MUST be relieved of duty. ATF JUST attempted to fire 3 agents, one of whom was a supervisor for ONE occurence they failed to report in the D.C. area. Until the rules apply to ALL Mr. Jones and Mr. Brandon, you will NEVER get the field to follow you.

Excalibur-2112, on 20 December 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:

Well said.

Its almost insulting to come by here sometimes and read new posters who seem to think that the American public is too damned stupid to know that this was an example of CORRUPTION at the highest levels and NOT merely a mistake or an operation gone bad.

[PetePark1811]

This is where I knew someone with your limited intellect would go.  Insult and pompous responses.  I will tell you one more time.  The gun sales were legal.  They passed the background checks.  You choose to ignore the points I am making and go to insults.  If you check what I am saying it matches what the agents who were actually involved are saying.  Just because you read something in the paper doesn't make it true.  I am guessing you don't trust the media.  I don't either.  I think they aren't properly covering this story.  It need to be truly investigated by a Special Prosecutor with full authority to go where the investigation takes them.  If it goes all the way to the White House, so be it.  I could try and argue with you, but I think it would be a waste of time.   We both think ATF screwed up royally.  I just want to keep to real facts.  Good luck and enjoy the Kool-aid.

Excalibur-2112, on 20 December 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

And *I* care because.... ?


My FACTS come straight from the GUN STORE OWNERS whose stories are in PERFECT goddam line with the BATFE agents who spilled the beans here.
Get YOUR facts straight, friend, THEN come back and we'll talk.


Somehow I seriously doubt that.
I have spent THOUSANDS of hours researching the FACTS from EVERY direction.
I doubt that many in DC who arent directly involved know all the details that Ive learned from hundreds of sources.


WOW...what the planet are YOU living on?
BOTH STORE OWNERS AND BATFE AGENTS BOTH ADMIT THAT THE BATFE TOLD GUN STORE OWNERS TO SELL THESE GUNS !
You probably should shut up and READ some goddam FACTS before we continue so you dont look like an uneducated idiot here.
Its NOT wrong...your agreement ISNT required, Im afraid.

[/color]
uh...guy....THAT IS THE GODDAM POINT!
The Store owners often DID NOT WANT TO SELL the guns but the BATFE INSTRUCTED THEM TO DO SO ANYWAY!
Again...WHAT CAVE have YOU been living in????

according to your idiocy the BATFE and GUN STORE OWNERS pretty much HAD to have cooperated and get their stories straight so they lined up PERFECTLY about the BATFE TELLING gun store owners to sell guns even when the gun store owners did NOT WANT TO do so....and for what reason by your uneducated understanding? Apparently because these BATFE agents WANTED their careers destroyed.

See how stupid that sounds?
The FACTS ARE that the BATFE agents story and the GUN STORE OWNER stories line up perfectly.
The WERE INSTRUCTED to make sales they DID NOT WANT TO MAKE and the BATFE told them THEY would be keeping track of the guns.
I have READ and WATCHED testimony pal...I dont need you telling me I didnt.



Wow...THREE whole instances.....remarkable.
And just how many times did the BATFE let guns get into Mexico...and act of war, mind you...and NOT do a goddam thing to even try to stop it?
The agents themselves dont seem to say that it was only three little cases, my deluded friend.


no....they dont....which is precisely why this investigation has now been directed at the FBI as well.
Do you even READ a goddam thing about this story, friend?
It certainly sounds like you DONT.

Most AGENTS are likely decent human beings.
And according to those AGENTS they often are FORCED to do things they KNOW is wrong or risk their own careers and freedom, based on what the AGENTS have SAID THEMSELVES.
The AGENTS only did their jobs. It is the UPPER echelon that knew exactly what the plan was..and whether YOU can accept it or not the plan was NOT just an operation gone sour...it was very purposefully to create statistics for more gun control. Even congressmen who WOULDNT previous make such an assertion are now realizing they have no choice but to see it exactly that way because the FACTS are now showing that that is the ONLY possible intent of the operation.

Easy enough?

[Excalibur-2112]

deleted by poster.

[Excalibur-2112]

deleted by poster.

[PetePark1811]

I don't find any of this funny.  There is enough screwed up stuff here that I only ask you limit your theories and stick with facts.  Some of your theories might be true, but at this point your are just guessing.  I am guessing that I probably know more about F/F than you, but that too is only a guess.  
I had to laugh a bit when I read this.
Sorry friend, but most of us in the public sector who know about F/F ARE claiming just that. And the more the facts come out them more we are proven right about our conclusions.

1. The ATF encouraged illegal sales by gun stores. - This was wrong.  Gun dealers should make these decisions.  No issue.  PS - the gun sales were legal, which doesn't make me laugh.  Are you saying that ATF should have the final say on gun sales that pass the background checks???
2. At the SAME time these sales were going on Obama and his drones were accusing MY rights for these very guns getting across the border.- No doubt.  Democrats have a history of being against gun rights.
3. KNOWING that the ATF was responsible for these guns getting across the border the ATF made NO attempt to correct these slanderous accusations against my rights. - Here is my rub.  Should ATF decide how many guns a citizen who passes the background check be allowed to buy.  Don't forget, on three occasions ATF agents tried to get search warrants to get the guns and were refused by a judge.  No violation occurs until the citizen/suspect tries to cross the border.  The policy in the past was to confront and try to get a confession.  If they told you to go away, you warned them you would be watching.
4. Nothing was actually concluded from these guns going south by Obama and his dupes EXCEPT a need for more gun laws.  Most ATF agents will tell you the last thing we need is more laws.  That being said, I don't know what goes on in the white house.  The requirement for multiple sales reporting on long guns on the border is only a industry regulation.  

Conclusion:
Since there was NO way to follow these guns into Mexico to make any arrests, then this operation served NO VALID purpose, at least none that the BATFE could possibly claim, which is precisely what Issa and others are beginning to conclude themselves. - Sorry, but this tactic has been sued before for drugs.  Watch, listen and put together a conspiracy case against everyone involved to include Mexican authorities across the border.  The problem is who was getting these guns.  It was a horrible plan.  You are turning a blind eye to gun trafficking to violent cartels.
Since there is NO valid purpose, and since that idiot Holder is too stupid not to give his hand away and has been making comments that F/F wouldnt have happened with stricter gun laws (who the hell knows how that would happen since it was HOLDERS ATF that was allowing these guns to cross the border ILLEGALLY to begin with) he has pretty much made his own motivations clear that his ONLY desire is more gun control at all costs thereby exposing the fact that this operation was almost conclusively about gathering data to support a need for more gun control.
The ONLY 'law enforcement objective' this operation had was to CREATE data to support bullshit gun control laws...sorry but those are very clearly the facts in the matter.

This was NOT mere stupidity....except in the point that the idiots who came up with the idiocy actually believed they could get away with it.....again.
What they didnt count on is what morons like this never count on....HONEST men and women in law enforcement.
[/quote]

[PetePark1811]

I just don't think that they (ATF) are that smart.  I think they were treating it like a drug case with a wire.  You watch and listen and let the documentation pile up.  Problem was, you are talking about guns, not drugs.  The article by the national association of federal agents is excellent.  The US attorney didn't want the cases on the low level traffickers.   Everyone was criticizing ATF for just taking off the low level guys and not trying to work their way up.  Seriously, these guys were too stupid to see what could go wrong with their plan.  Where I find the corruption is the fact people aren't willing to take accountability for their actions.  Don't fall in the same trap that ATF does to their own agents.  Making up stuff to get what you want.  Stick to the proven facts.  Also, if someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they are against you or wrong.  This has also been a tactic of ATF management.  ATF screwed up enough on Fast and Furious that you don't need to make up stuff.  Maybe Holder did have another agenda, but we have seen no proof of that.  What you are taking about are theories with no supporting testimony.  Is Holder lying?  I don't know, but I find it hard to believe he didn't know what was going on.  Again, Special Prosecutor.   We need to get to the bottom of this and have someone answer all the questions.  When you respond like this, you are behaving like ATF management.  Stick with the fact.  There are more than enough facts in this case to be angry about.  I shouldn't have even made the comments about the FBI informant.  While we suspect, we haven't seen proof.  I apologize for those comments.  

Excalibur-2112, on 20 December 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:

Well said.

Its almost insulting to come by here sometimes and read new posters who seem to think that the American public is too damned stupid to know that this was an example of CORRUPTION at the highest levels and NOT merely a mistake or an operation gone bad.

[Excalibur-2112]

Dan Gange, on 18 December 2011 - 04:10 PM, said:

As an ATF street Agent for many years, this conduct by ATF Managment cannot and must not go unpunished.   At the very least they should all be on administrative leave during the investigation and what a disgrace these top managers are to ATF.  

I just hope ATF is not disbanded or merged into other Agencies.  There's alot of good, talented Agents in our agency.

Well said.

Its almost insulting to come by here sometimes and read new posters who seem to think that the American public is too damned stupid to know that this was an example of CORRUPTION at the highest levels and NOT merely a mistake or an operation gone bad.

[Excalibur-2112]

PetePark1811, on 18 December 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

No doubt this was a horrible plan.  As Pete said in front of congress, it wasn't like hunters were getting these guns.  But claiming that since ATF didn't tell the Mexican Authorities mean is didn't have any legitimate law enforcement objectives is just wrong.  

I had to laugh a bit when I read this.
Sorry friend, but most of us in the public sector who know about F/F ARE claiming just that. And the more the facts come out them more we are proven right about our conclusions.

1. The ATF encouraged illegal sales by gun stores.
2. At the SAME time these sales were going on Obama and his drones were accusing MY rights for these very guns getting across the border.
3. KNOWING that the ATF was responsible for these guns getting across the border the ATF made NO attempt to correct these slanderous accusations against my rights.
4. Nothing was actually concluded from these guns going south by Obama and his dupes EXCEPT a need for more gun laws.

Conclusion:
Since there was NO way to follow these guns into Mexico to make any arrests, then this operation served NO VALID purpose, at least none that the BATFE could possibly claim, which is precisely what Issa and others are beginning to conclude themselves.
Since there is NO valid purpose, and since that idiot Holder is too stupid not to give his hand away and has been making comments that F/F wouldnt have happened with stricter gun laws (who the hell knows how that would happen since it was HOLDERS ATF that was allowing these guns to cross the border ILLEGALLY to begin with) he has pretty much made his own motivations clear that his ONLY desire is more gun control at all costs thereby exposing the fact that this operation was almost conclusively about gathering data to support a need for more gun control.
The ONLY 'law enforcement objective' this operation had was to CREATE data to support bullshit gun control laws...sorry but those are very clearly the facts in the matter.

This was NOT mere stupidity....except in the point that the idiots who came up with the idiocy actually believed they could get away with it.....again.
What they didnt count on is what morons like this never count on....HONEST men and women in law enforcement.

[Bulletman]

Senator Grassley released this in today...........


One Year Later

U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry died one year ago in a gun fight  along the U.S.-Mexico border. Agent Terry’s family has tried to get  information from the federal government about the policies that led to  his death, and I’ve worked to help get the details for the family.  But,  the administration has stonewalled and slow-walked my efforts. I’ve had  to pry information out of the Justice Department bit by bit.

The murder of Agent Terry was the last straw for a group of Alcohol,  Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents turned whistleblowers who had  been warning their supervisors for months that a little-known program  known as Operation Fast and Furious was headed for disaster.

These agents came to me after their pleas fell on deaf ears with their  supervisors, and contacts to the Inspector General’s office resulted in  no action.  I’ve been leading an investigation into the illegal policy  known as gunwalking since January 2011.

We’ve gotten some results, despite being stonewalled by the Justice  Department.   Earlier this month, I called for the resignation of Lanny  Breuer, the head of the Criminal Division in the Justice Department.   You can find my full remarks here.  I’ve learned from documents  over the course of my investigation that Mr. Breuer displayed a  stunning lack of judgment when told ATF walked guns in Operation Wide  Receiver, a 2006-2007 case. Mr. Breuer helped keep ATF's gunwalking a  secret and was far more informed than he admitted to me in public testimony about the drafting of the department’s claim that ATF did not let guns walk. The Justice Department's February 4 letter to me contained misinformation and false statements in response to my January 27 and January 31 letters.

The false and misleading information contained in the February 4 letter  all could have been avoided.   I’ve learned that an agent who spoke with  my congressional investigators wrote a memo on February 3  explaining the unacceptable tactics used in Operation Fast and  Furious.  That’s the day before the letter containing the false and  misleading information was sent to me.  That memo, sent to ATF  headquarters, shows that the truth was easily knowable before the false  denial was sent to Congress.  If the Justice Department asked for firsthand documentation like this memo when they first got my letter in January, we wouldn’t be where we are today.

In addition, documents show that one of the Justice Department  officials, Jason Weinstein, who drafted the February 4 letter to me, knew of the gunwalking  in previous instances and knew the letter contained a blatantly false  line.  Yet, he did nothing to correct it, and that line remained in  every successive draft of the letter.

Despite the stonewalling, my investigation into the gunwalking policies  will continue.  People must be held accountable.  We’ll get to the  bottom of what led to that sad day one year ago when one of our own was  killed because of an ill-advised gunwalking policy concocted by the  federal government.  The Terry family deserves no less than a full  accounting of how this all happened -- sooner rather than later.

December 19, 2011

[PetePark1811]

This is an excellent article.  Please read it carefully.  It is the first time I have seen someone write about the difficult position ATF is in with gun smuggling.  No violation occurs until the gun crosses the border.  You can confront the individual and hope he confesses, but without that, it is perfect legal for someone to buy all the guns they want.  Even if you know they are being smuggled, there is nothing you can do but confront and warn the individual.   It would seem with a wire up, ATF could have confront the trafficking case within a few weeks.  Again, we need a special prosecutor to investigate Fast and Furious.  I heard somewhere that the ATF agents tried on 3 occasions to get search warrants for suspected stash houses, but the federal judge said no.  A crime hadn't occurred until the guns tried to cross the border.

Historic Arms LLC, on 24 October 2011 - 05:44 AM, said:

Thank you webmaster.

I think that it important that people understand that an association of ALL federal agents have taken a stand on F&F.  

If "knowledge is power"....than this website is powerful in that respect.

[Dan Gange]

As an ATF street Agent for many years, this conduct by ATF Managment cannot and must not go unpunished.   At the very least they should all be on administrative leave during the investigation and what a disgrace these top managers are to ATF.  

I just hope ATF is not disbanded or merged into other Agencies.  There's alot of good, talented Agents in our agency.

[PetePark1811]

No doubt this was a horrible plan.  As Pete said in front of congress, it wasn't like hunters were getting these guns.  But claiming that since ATF didn't tell the Mexican Authorities mean is didn't have any legitimate law enforcement objectives is just wrong.  Mexican Authorities have a long history of corruption.  That being said, it was still a horrible plan.  Obviously, the FBI had another plan when they started their own case inside ATF's case. Don't read too much into just being stupid.  I would guess that the FBI informant who was smuggling guns with FBI funds knew there was a wire up and had an inside track on everything going on.  A special prosecutor needs to be appointed to investigate this case.  Did Melson know about the FBI CI??

coyotejoe, on 10 December 2011 - 08:45 AM, said:

Given that in operation Fast & Furious there was no attempt to track the guns and the Mexican authorities were never informed it is obvious that no legitimate law enforcement objective could possibly have been achieved. The stated objective of "tracking the guns to the bigger fish" is obvious hog wash. So what was the intended purpose? We know they produced a "flow chart", a map with arrows from the point of gun sale to the point of recovery by police. Was that flow chart indeed the only intended result? Are they actually so irresponsible and callous in their disregard for public safety? If so, this goes way beyond stupid and incompetent, it is blatantly criminal.

[Zorro]

1811 is correct - at least at the moment:

Transfer of BATFE Authority. A prohibition on the use of funds to transfer any duty or responsibility of the BATFE to any other agency or department.  This provision was written in response to a Clinton Administration plan to transfer firearms enforcement to the FBI or Secret Service.  It also prohibits the Executive branch from skirting the will of Congress by allowing another agency to implement policies the BATFE is prohibited from implementing.

http://www.nraila.or...ad.aspx?id=7180

What's best for the taxpayers and law abiding gun owners isn't necessarily what's best for fund raising.

retired1811, on 13 December 2011 - 05:29 AM, said:

I support a complete reorganization but doubt that the NRA will.

[retired1811]

I support a complete reorganization but doubt that the NRA will.

[MidwestCR]

My apologies if I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of this.

Seems rather important. I'm seeing this talk from Issa as more of a reaction to a total inability to have any change happen via the DOJ. Maybe Congress feels they will be forced to tear the whole thing apart and rebuild it in order to effect any change.


Bolded sections are emphasis added by me.


http://thehill.com/h...-reorganize-atf

Quote

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) wants to reorganize the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives in the wake of a botched gun-tracking operation.

Issa, as chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, on Friday laid out several proposals for the beleaguered ATF, including merging it with the FBI.

“The ATF perhaps should be molded completely into the FBI and be done with it rather than this specialization,” said Issa at a breakfast hosted by The Christian Science Monitor.

“And there’s no reason you can’t have a special unit under the FBI. And it is a frustration that I’m getting close to saying, ‘You know, as the reform committee — organizational reform — we may have to do that.’”

Issa criticized the way law enforcement agencies share jurisdiction and partner with each other on operations like Fast and Furious, which the ATF led and had help from the FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration, and U.S. attorneys with the Justice Department (DOJ). The ATF falls under the DOJ’s umbrella.

But Issa immediately seemed to back off his initial push to have the FBI absorb the ATF as a cure-all solution, saying that the FBI and its director, Robert Mueller, share some of the blame for the botched gun-tracking operation, which oversaw the sale of thousands of weapons to known and suspected straw buyers for Mexican drug cartels.

“When I talk about reform I’m not going to go forward with something as simple as 'put it in the FBI.' Because understand, Fast and Furious was an FBI failure. So you’ve got problems that go up to the director there too of, how can he have joined?” said Issa.

“The ATF is not a single organization that runs its show. The ATF is always teamed in these other organizations and so … you’ve got a host of other people and then they point at ATF at the end. And that’s why I say that reorganization is inevitable. That reorganization might create a more stable and larger ATF. I just say that we can’t have what we have now, which is no one accountable in these large, joint events.”

Issa’s frustrations with the network of federal law enforcement agencies comes nine months into his investigation of Fast and Furious, which might have contributed to the death of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry.

Issa said his investigation is entering into the next phase and that making reforms within the ATF was one of his top priorities.

“On my watch I don’t want to be accused of doing reforms that just kick the can down the road and that includes dealing with this problem of ATF and FBI,” he said.

“If I don’t get this fixed and get the kind of assurances it won’t happen again then I’ll deserve blame.”

[coyotejoe]

Given that in operation Fast & Furious there was no attempt to track the guns and the Mexican authorities were never informed it is obvious that no legitimate law enforcement objective could possibly have been achieved. The stated objective of "tracking the guns to the bigger fish" is obvious hog wash. So what was the intended purpose? We know they produced a "flow chart", a map with arrows from the point of gun sale to the point of recovery by police. Was that flow chart indeed the only intended result? Are they actually so irresponsible and callous in their disregard for public safety? If so, this goes way beyond stupid and incompetent, it is blatantly criminal.

[SilentObserver]

Three lying self serving Jackwagons..Priceless and well done!!

[CUATF Webmaster]

[The Original Ralph]

that had sent a memo around to the local PD and Sheriff's office, indicating not to bring them cases for prosecution involving ATF - or somthing along those lines. This was after the charges against Carter Country were dropped (they'd been charged with making straw purchaser sales), after their attorney showed the local prosecutor that Carter Country had only made those sales at or on ATF's instruction.

if you've got a link to that memo or a link to the original posting, i'd appreciate - i've read posts till my eyes started burning.

thanks in advance

[SilentObserver]

Please let me know as soon as possible about this link..I will send it to all of my contacts..in federal law enforcement...

Jaime3, on 08 November 2011 - 07:36 PM, said:

Please visit CleanUpATF.org on Monday, November 14th.

This is very important!!!



A link will be available for everyone to sign this Petition, in which will be sent personally (from a fellow CleanUp member) to the Oversight Committee!

Please sign it!!!  If you know Retired or Ex-ATF members, I highly encourage you to tell them about it!!!

I posted new content last week about this Petition...Vince is definitely on board with this one!


Like I posted last week...I'm tired of talking.

I'm doing something and with your help...we will be doing something!!!

[Jaime3]

Please visit CleanUpATF.org on Monday, November 14th.

This is very important!!!



A link will be available for everyone to sign this Petition, in which will be sent personally (from a fellow CleanUp member) to the Oversight Committee!

Please sign it!!!  If you know Retired or Ex-ATF members, I highly encourage you to tell them about it!!!

I posted new content last week about this Petition...Vince is definitely on board with this one!


Like I posted last week...I'm tired of talking.

I'm doing something and with your help...we will be doing something!!!

[SilentObserver]

Can anyone please explain this to me before my head explodes?

HIDALGO - Police say a Mexican federal agent was caught with several   rounds of ammo and a dummy grenade but won’t face any charges.Last  week, local authorities say someone tried to cross the Hidalgo  bridge  carrying weapons and a grenade. Turns out, much of what happened  may  never be told. The feds aren't prosecuting.Federal agents and  officers stepped up southbound inspections in recent  months. They're  looking for cash and weapons going south. Sources say  the Mexican  federal agent had hundreds of rounds of ammunition,  tactical gear and a  grenade. The grenade found wasn't live. It was  hollowed out.Federal  authorities there at the bridge could not talk about the  incident  because it's not being prosecuted. The U.S. Attorney General's  Office  says they can't talk about their prosecutorial discretion  process. The  case is still under investigation.They can't talk about their prosecutorial discretion process?...Really?..Well guess what!..They will talk about with it me!..If I have to file my own lawsuit these cretins will talk!

Government Investigations

[SilentObserver]

Holders statements regarding Fast N Furious have been lies..Documents prove that...Any comments he has made to the media concerning this has been nothing but political BS!!...From the evidence I have seen so far..I am convinced this was contrived with Holder..Lanny Breuer and it is looking more like the Whitehouse.!

Lets take it to 'em..

I would also like to remind any of you that you can give a statement to the House Oversight Committee VIA the website and not give your name..The more House Oversight receives from all of you...The easier it is to take down the corrupt ones.And I am not just talking about Fast N Furious...ANY wrong doing done by anyone within the ATF or DOJ...I spend 16 hours a day working on this...It is now my new career to see to it these bottom feeders get their just desserts in all of this..You're either for it or against it..either way this will be taken care of!

House Oversight..Use The Whistleblower link

Attorney General Eric Holder will tell the Senate Judiciary Committee tomorrow morning that ATF’s Operation Fast and Furious  was “flawed in concept, as well as in execution” and should never have  happened, according to excerpts from his testimony released by the  Justice Department on Monday evening.  But he will take a shot at Republican lawmakers for focusing on  “headline-grabbing Washington ‘gotcha’ games and cynical political point  scoring” instead of working with DOJ to make sure it doesn’t happen  again.

From Holder’s prepared remarks:

…I’d like to take a moment to address the public safety  crisis of guns flowing across our border into Mexico - and the local law  enforcement operation known as “Fast and Furious” that has brought  renewed public attention to this shared national security threat.   I  want to be clear: any instance of so-called “gun walking” is  unacceptable. This operation was flawed in concept, as well as in execution.  And,  unfortunately, we will feel its effects for years to come as guns that  were lost during this operation continue to show up at crimes scenes  both here and in Mexico.  This should never have happened.  And it must  never happen again.  To ensure that it will not, after learning about  the allegations raised by ATF agents involved with Fast and Furious, I  took action.  I asked the Department’s Inspector General to investigate  the matter, and I ordered that a directive be sent to the Department’s  law enforcement agents and prosecutors stating that such tactics violate  Department policy and will not be tolerated.  * * *  As you all know, the trafficking of firearms across our Southwest  Border has long been a serious problem - one that has contributed to  approximately 40,000 deaths in the last five years.  The mistakes of Operation Fast and Furious, serious though they were,  should not deter or distract us from our critical mission to disrupt  the dangerous flow of firearms along our Southwest Border.  I have  supported a number of aggressive, innovative steps to do so and our work  has yielded significant successes.  We’ve built crime-fighting capacity  on both sides of the border by developing new procedures for using  evidence gathered in Mexico to prosecute gun traffickers in U.S. courts;  by training thousands of Mexican prosecutors and investigators; by  successfully fighting to enhance sentencing guidelines for convicted  traffickers and straw purchasers; and by pursuing coordinated,  multi-district investigations of gun-trafficking rings.  This year alone, we have led successful investigations into the  murders of U.S. citizens in Mexico, created new cartel-targeting  prosecutorial units, and secured the extradition of 104 defendants  wanted by U.S. law enforcement - including the former head of the  Tijuana Cartel.  This work has undoubtedly saved and improved lives in  the United States as well as Mexico.  I am personally committed to  combating gun trafficking and reducing the alarming rate of violence  along the Southwest Border by using effective - and appropriate - tools.  * * *  Like each of you, I want to know why and how firearms that should  have been under surveillance could wind up in the hands of Mexican drug  cartels.  But beyond identifying where errors occurred and ensuring that  they never occur again, we must be careful not to lose sight of the  critical problem that this flawed investigation has highlighted: we are  losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico.  That  means we have a responsibility to act.  And, we can start by listening  to the agents who serve on the front lines of this battle.  Not only did  they bring the inappropriate and misguided tactics of Operation Fast  and Furious to light, they also sounded the alarm to Congress that they  need our help.   ATF agents who testified before a House committee this summer  explained that the agency’s ability to stem the flow of guns from the  United States into Mexico suffers from a lack of effective enforcement  tools.  One critical first step should be for Congressional leaders to  work with us to provide ATF with the resources and statutory tools it  needs to be effective.  Another would be for Congress to fully fund our  request for teams of agents to fight gun trafficking.  Unfortunately,  earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep  law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple  semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops.   Providing law enforcement with the tools to detect and disrupt  illegal gun trafficking is entirely consistent with the constitutional  rights of law-abiding citizens and it is critical to addressing the  public safety crisis on the Southwest border.  As someone who has seen the consequences of gun violence firsthand -  and who has promised far too many grieving families that I would do  everything in my power not only to seek justice on behalf of their loved  ones, but also to prevent other families from experiencing similar  tragedies - I am determined to ensure that our shared concerns about  Operation Fast and Furious lead to more than headline-grabbing  Washington “gotcha” games and cynical political point scoring.

Sen. Patrick Leahy has asked DOJ’s Inspector General to make sure they look into Bush-era “gun walking” as well. Government Corruption Site

[SilentObserver]

Jason Ryan, Jack Cloherty and Pierre Thomas report: The National Rifle Association is turning up the heat on Attorney  General Eric Holder, running television ads charging that he committed  perjury in congressional testimony about the controversial “Fast and  Furious” undercover, gun-running operation.  The ad calls on President  Obama to fire Holder. Things could get even hotter for the attorney general Tuesday, when  he returns to Congress to be questioned again about Fast and Furious. The NRA ad is the latest salvo in a battle between critics in  Congress and the Justice Department on the controversial “gun-walking”  operation.  Run by the Justice Department’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco  and Firearms (ATF), Fast and Furious involved tracking weapons sold to  straw purchasers, who then passed the guns along to their hidden buyers  in the Mexican drug cartels. Hundreds of guns flowed into Mexico under the program, while ATF  agents watched and did nothing.  The ATF says it hoped to track the guns  to their ultimate destination, and then make arrests. Instead, many of  the guns were used in crimes, including one that was used in the murder  of U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry. The controversy has focused on testimony Holder provided to the House  Judiciary Committee May 3, 2011. During that hearing, Rep. Darell Issa,  R-Calif., who is spearheading the congressional investigation, asked  Holder, “When did you first know about the program officially, I  believe, called Fast and Furious? To the best of your knowledge, what  date?” Holder answered: “I’m not sure of the exact date, but I probably  heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few  weeks.” The House Oversight and  Government Reform Committee released last  month a series of Justice Department memos sent to Holder’s office going  back to July 2010, that made reference about the gun trafficking investigationbeing run out of Arizona. Justice Department officials say the memos are only generic updates  and offer no detail or specifics of ATF strategies to allow the guns to  pass in large numbers. A paragraph in a July 5, 2010, weekly update briefing to the attorney  general makes broad reference to Fast and Furious but makes no  reference to the specific tactics used. “This investigation, initiated  in September 2009 in conjunction with the Drug Enforcement  Administration, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Phoenix  Police Department, involves a Phoenix-based firearms trafficking ring  headed by Manuel Celis-Acosta. Celis-Acosta and [redacted] straw  purchasers are responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were  then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels.” Holder has stood by his previous statements, writing to members of  Congress Oct.  7, “Much has been made in the past few days about my  congressional testimony earlier this year regarding Fast and Furious.   My testimony was truthful and accurate and I have been consistent on  this point throughout.  I have no recollection of knowing about Fast and  Furious or of hearing its name prior to the public controversy about  it. “Prior to early 2011, I certainly never knew about the tactics  employed in the operation and it is my understanding that the former  United States Attorney for the District of Arizona and the former Acting  Director and Deputy Director of ATF have told Congress that they,  themselves, were unaware of the tactics employed,” Holder wrote. In prepared testimony released Monday evening, Holder reiterates  previous comments about the flawed operation in a statement, asserting,  “This operation was flawed in concept, as well as in execution.  And,  unfortunately, we will feel its effects for years to come as guns that  were lost during this operation continue to show up at crimes scenes  both here and in Mexico.  This should never have happened.  And it must  never happen again.”
The investigation into Fast and Furious has also revealed previous  instances of guns going into Mexico from other ATF operations in  Arizona. Operation “Wide Receiver” pre-dated Fast and Furious and spans  back to March 2006 during the Bush administration. The ATF and the U.S.  Attorney’s office in Arizona were investigating a gun trafficking case  but did not press charges until the Justice Department’s Criminal  Division Gang Unit moved forward with the case in 2009 and moved to  bring indictments in 2010. As Wide Receiver moved closer toward indictment, Justice Department  officials in the Criminal Division noted serious concerns about ATF’s  tactics in the case by letting guns into Mexico. Lanny Breuer, the assistant attorney general for the Criminal  Division, said last week he made mistakes after being briefed last year  about Wide Receiver but says he never raised the issue of the gun  tactics to Holder or the deputy attorney general. “I wish that at that time that I had said clearly to the deputy  attorney general and the  attorney general that in this case, Wide  Receiver, we had determined  that in 2006 and 2007, guns had walked,”  Breuer said, testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee Nov. 1. ”I  did not do that, and I regret not doing that. “At the time, I thought that, dealing with the leadership of ATF was sufficient and reasonable,” Breuer said. The Justice Department’s inspector general, at Holder’s request, is  investigating Fast and Furious. Sen. Patrick Leah, D-Vt., the chairman  of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has also asked the inspector general  to review Operation Wide Receiver. Everyone is this entire country needs to turn up the heat on this lawless moron!..Eric Holder and Lanny Breuer have been lawless in their entire careers...The time has come for them to pay for their crimes like anyone else!...They are NOT above the law...Not one soul in our country is above the law!...I personally have had it with government officials and their corruption and also those who see it and do nothing!..

[SilentObserver]

Rene Jaquez I am almost positive will be called to testify before the committee...at some point..I am going to check and make sure..This investigation is far from over folks...This is going to be a long time in the works..Many Agents will be called to testify..I also agree with everything Vince said below..Now is the time to have each others back and cut the petty stuff...This can happen to anyone at anytime....

[SilentObserver]

Senate Judiciary Committee Full Committee

                       

                    
                                                   

                                    

             DATE: November 8, 2011
TIME: 10:00 AM
ROOM: Dirksen 226

        

              
    

OFFICIAL HEARING NOTICE / WITNESS LIST:

          

   October 31, 2011

  

   NOTICE OF COMMITTEE HEARING

  

   The Senate Committee on the Judiciary has scheduled a hearing entitled  “Oversight of the U.S. Department of Justice” for Tuesday, November 8,  2011 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 226 of the Dirksen Senate Office Building.

  

   By order of the Chairman.

  

   Witness List

  

   Hearing before the
Senate Committee on the Judiciary

  

   On

  

   “Oversight of the U.S. Department of Justice”

  

   Tuesday, November 8, 2011
Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room 226
10:00 a.m.

  

   The Honorable Eric H. Holder Jr.
   Attorney General
   U.S. Department of Justice
   Washington, DC

[SilentObserver]

Conservative activist Joseph Connor has launched a grassroots effort asking voters to push their congressmen and senators to call for Attorney General Eric Holder’s immediate resignation.

To date 35 members of Congress, all of them in the House of Representatives, have called for Holder’s departure from the Department of Justice.

“The [Operation] Fast and Furious scheme, where more than 2,000  rifles were knowingly and willfully allowed to be transported from the  United States into Mexico, has now been linked to a number of deaths on  both sides of the border, including two United States federal agents,”  Connor wrote in an email sent out to conservative voters and activists.  “The scandal has now become a full-scale criminal investigation  enveloping several agencies.”

Connor’s letter explains some Americans’ skepticism of an internal  investigation reportedly being conducted by Holder and DOJ Inspector  General Cynthia Schnedar. “Ms. Schnedar has long ties to Mr. Holder, and  she recently released secret tapes which compromised the  investigation,” Connor writes. “Mr. Holder apparently has no intention  to appoint a truly independent investigator.”

The email describes how, during the Clinton administration, Holder  was a key officials who led the charge to pardon Puerto Rican terrorists  from the Armed Forces for National Liberation (FALN). Those FALN  terrorists, Connor wrote in August 2008, “proudly claimed responsibility for my father’s [Frank Connor’s] murder.”

“This kind of scandal and denial is nothing new to Mr. Holder,”  Connor wrote of the aftermath of Operation Fast and Furious. “He has a  demonstrated pattern of dangerous disregard for the American citizens he  is sworn to protect. As Deputy Attorney General he engineered executive  clemency for the unrepentant terrorists of the FALN and an  international fugitive, Marc Rich, who sold arms to our enemies.”

“In order to maintain his effectiveness and insure the credibility of  the Justice Department, The Attorney General of the United States must  operate at a legal, honest and ethical level above reproach,” Connor  continues. “Mr. Holder clearly falls short of those minimal  requirements.”

[SilentObserver]

I would like to let all of you know that I have been investigating Fast N Furious and have a very long way to go!

The reason I am appealing to all Agents or ATF staff who have direct knowledge of the things going on with upper management within ATF or the DOJ concerning...Perjury...Falsifying documents..Altering documents..harassment...Making false statements...Using their position for personal gain...Using bureau assets for personal use..Unethical practices.

I would like for everyone who has knowledge about any of the above to please put it in writing and send it to the House Oversight Committee, I will post the address below..or send it to me by email and I will see to it that the House Oversight Committee gets it...I have been investigating not only Fast N Furious but also those in upper management in the bureau..The time has come for the abuses and corruption to end..It needs to be stopped now!

If you request to remain nameless I understand..and will keep you in full confidence.

I have discussed with Chairman Issa about the House Oversight Committee opening hearing about the problems within the bureau..The excuse that it hasn't had a permanent director is a poor excuse...This has been going on for years even when they had directors..Higgins comes to mind...

I want to see something done about this before I die..All I ask is for you to please write a statement to the best of your knowledge about your own case or one you have direct knowledge of..I have submitted my reports to the committee and today I got the call that they will take this up after the first of the year 2012...But we still need more statements..Your cooperation would be deeply appreciated by those who have been messed over unjustly.

Help me to help you or your fellow Agents and employees.

Your statements will not be shared with anyone other than House Oversight Committee Investigators nor will they be published without your express written permission.


Thank you

Mike Presnell


Send your statements to:

2157 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, DC 20515
PHONE: (202) 225-5074 FAX: (202) 225-3974

Or you can use this link at the House Oversight Committee...Click the link and go to the  whistleblower link at the top of the page and fill out the message form..House Oversight Whistleblower form

Email me...director@fastnfuriousinvestigation.com Or you can call me anytime...520-870-6177..

[SilentObserver]

By Joseph F. Connor



The Fast and Furious scheme, where more than  2,000 rifles were  knowingly and willfully allowed to be transported  from the United States  into Mexico, has now been linked to a number of  deaths on both sides of  the border, including two United States federal  agents. The scandal has  now become a full-scale criminal investigation  enveloping several  agencies, including; the Justice Department, the  Bureau of Alcohol,  Tobacco and Firearms, the Federal Bureau of  Investigation, the Drug  Enforcement Administration, the United States  Attorney’s office in  Arizona and now even includes the White House.

President Obama and Attorney  General Holder have repeatedly  stated that Justice Department Acting  Inspector General (Cynthia A.  Schnedar) is currently conducting the  internal investigation.  However, Ms. Schnedar has long ties to Mr.  Holder, and she recently  released secret tapes which compromised the  investigation.  Mr. Holder  apparently has no intention to appoint a  truly independent  investigator. Despite his denials, there are a number  of memoranda that  suggest that Attorney General Holder knew of the  operation well before  the time period that he stated in his  congressional testimony, and that  other Justice Department and White  House staff were aware of the  operation as well.

This kind of scandal and denial is nothing new to Mr. Holder.  He has  a  demonstrated pattern of dangerous disregard for the American citizens   he is sworn to protect.  As Deputy Attorney General he engineered   executive clemency for the unrepentant terrorists of the FALN and an   international fugitive, Marc Rich, who sold arms to our enemies. In   order to maintain his effectiveness and ensure the credibility of the   Justice Department, The Attorney General of the United States must   operate at a legal, honest and ethical level above reproach.  Mr. Holder   clearly falls short of those minimal requirements.


Currently a growing number of at least 34 Congressmen and women have called for Mr. Holder’s immediate resignation.

If you agree that Holder should resign, please use the attached web links to contact Congress.    Let your Congressperson or Senator know that Eric Holder’s behavior  has  been malfeasant at minimum and his immediate resignation from the  post  of Attorney General of the United States should be demanded.

http://www.house.gov/representatives/
http://www.senate.go...fm.cfm?State=NJ
The following is suggested text. If your   Congressperson or Senator uses a form email from which you must select a   topic, appropriate choices would be Crime, Judiciary or Government   Affairs.  If you do not know your 4 digit zip code extension required to   submit a comment, you can find it on this site:

http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp
Dear Senator/Congressperson
The mismanagement of the Fast & Furious investigation has brought   to light the incompetence and lack of candor by the Department of   Justice and Attorney General Eric Holder in particular.  Mr. Holder has   failed to execute his office in a responsible manner, and has attempted   to obfuscate facts surrounding this matter.  In light of this I  believe  it is your responsibility to call for the immediate resignation  of Mr.  Holder and appointment of a truly independent counsel to carry  out an  impartial investigation of Fast & Furious and related  government  operations which put both the American public and Mexican  public at  risk.


Your constituent,
Name:
Address:
Telephone number:


Director Border Narcotics Intelligence

Attached Files

•  ericfastnfurious.jpg   149.74K   0 downloads

[SilentObserver]

By Roger Wilke.Writing for Fast N Furious Investigation




Congressional investigators sought Wednesday to expand their   investigation of the controversial DOJ approved illegal sale of firearms   in Arizona to include an apparently similar operation in Texas.

In  both cases, illegally-sold weapons were allowed by the Bureau  of  Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to "walk" across the   U.S.-Mexico border, and ended up being involved in the killing of  U.S.  Agents.

In the Texas case, Immigration and Customs  Enforcement Agent Jaime  Zapata, who was working for the United States in  Mexico, was murdered  February 15 when his vehicle was ambushed by about  10 gunmen on a major  highway between Mexico City and Monterrey.

Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was gunned down December 15, 2010 by Mexican bandits in Peck Canyon, Arizona.
As well as over 200 deaths of Mexican people.

Investigators across the United States are working hard to dig up facts  on operation Fast N Furious, so that those responsible can be held  accountable for their crimes.

One investigator out of Arizona said," Fast N Furious is the largest  investigation our country has ever seen and that is will take a lot of  time to get all of the facts lined up so that those involved in the  Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco And Firearms as well as he Department Of  Justice and even possibly the Whitehouse can be held accountable through  criminal prosecution for violating a number of U.S. laws.

Investigators will converge on Texas and New Mexico here soon to get to  the bottom of  these horrible crimes allegedly committed by government  officials doing the dirty work of the Obama administration in order to  enact more gun laws on the American people.

In a free society this type of crimes will not stand.Those involved  should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and Eric Holder  and Barack Obama should be removed from office immediately while waiting  on their Grand Jury indictments.

Fast N Furious Investigation

Attached Files

•  fastnfuriousinvestigationn.png   67.54K   2 downloads

[SilentObserver]

Holder's 'Right To Lie'

This administration's lawless activities have got to be stopped.  AG Holder needs to be in jail for his corruption as well as carrying out the corruption of Obama.!

Scandal: A Department of Justice withholding Fast  and  Furious gun-running information from Congress proposes shredding the   Freedom of Information Act by being able to deny certain documents even   exist.

The most transparent administration in history has struck another  blow  for opaqueness with a proposed new federal regulation expanding its   ability to respond to Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests, as   the new rule states, "as if the excluded documents did not exist."

Current provisions that allow for denying access to documents are  found in 5 U.S.C. section 552© and were enacted in 1986.

Government  can deny document access if the FOIA requester is under  criminal  investigation and the investigation would be jeopardized, when  the  request concern's an informant whose identity is otherwise not  known, or  when the request seeks records "pertaining to foreign  intelligence or  counterintelligence, or international terrorism, and  the existence of  the records is classified information."

In denying the request, the government must cite the relevant   exemption. The requester can then challenge the denial in court. The   proposed rule change would allow the government to just say the   documents don't exist, eviscerating FOIA and pre-empting the right to   challenge the secrecy. A court cannot examine a document the government   says doesn't exist.

The public's right to know is not absolute. Yet under current rules a   court can determine whether the government's request for secrecy is   justified. Even when documents are redacted to the point of   meaninglessness at least we know they exist.

DOJ says it's a long-standing practice dating back to a 1987 memo  from  then-Attorney General Edwin Meese. That memo did not have the force  of  law and was recently challenged in court in a case involving the   Islamic Council of California after the plaintiffs learned of documents   the FBI said didn't exist.

"The government cannot, under any circumstance, affirmatively mislead   the court. The court simply cannot perform its constitutional function   if the government does not tell the truth," the judge wrote.

Neither can a democracy long sustain itself if the government has a right to lie.

Yet Melanie Ann Pustay, director of the Justice Department's Office  of  Information Policy, which wants to function like George Orwell's   Ministry of Truth, says government does have the right to lie.

"To ensure the integrity of the exclusion is maintained, agencies  must  ensure that their responses do not reveal the existence of excluded   records," she says.

A final version of the proposed rule could be issued by the end of  this  year. If approved, the new rule would officially become a federal   regulation with the force of law. Presumably the Nixon White House could   have used the rule during Watergate to say, "Tape? What tape? It   doesn't exist." This rule is more effective than any number of shredders   could be.

The rule comes at a time when the Department of Justice is actively   stonewalling Congress on requests for information on the Fast and   Furious government-sponsored gun-running operation that smuggled 2,000   weapons into Mexico. The weapons were involved in the deaths of two U.S.   agents, Brian Terry and Jaime Zapata. Then there are the excesses of   crony capitalism such as Solyndra, which prompted an FBI raid.

What we know about such incidents has been gleaned largely from   documents and emails the government was forced to disclose. They showed,   among other things, that the attorney general of the United States   flat-out lied about what he knew about Fast and Furious and when he knew   it.

It is this rule that needs to be shredded. We need to know the truth   about what the government is doing to hold it accountable. The consent   of the governed needs to be an informed consent.

Government Corruption

The evidence the House Oversight Committee has on this administration is staggering...I can not wait until the American people will finally get to see it.!...My investigation into certain higher level ATF officials is moving along very well..I hope to have 6 to 8 cases to submit to the House Judiciary Committee by the first week of January 2012..

Attached Files

•  holder.jpg   5.09K   0 downloads

[SilentObserver]

ATF gunwalker update: Eric Holder to testify on Fast and Furious



Attorney  General Eric Holder testifies on  Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday,  May 3, 2011, before a House  Judiciary Committee oversight hearing.(Credit: CBS News)  CBS  News has learned Attorney General Eric Holder has agreed  to appear  before the House Judiciary Committee regarding "Fast and  Furious." The  hearing will take place Dec. 8th.

Judiciary  Committee member and head of the House Oversight Committee  Rep. Darrell  Issa (R-CA) had requested that Holder appear, in part to  dig deeper  into when-he-knew-what about ATF's so-called "gunwalking"  operation Fast  and Furious.

In May, Holder testified that he only first heard about Fast  and  Furious a few weeks before. However, as CBS News reported, documents   and memos indicate he had been sent multiple briefings mentioning Fast   and Furious in 2010.

Holder later explained in a letter  to Congress that he didn't read  those memos, and that in any event,  nobody at the Justice Department  who knew of Fast and Furious was aware  of the specific "gunwalking"  tactics used.

More Fast and Furious coverage

Memos contradict Holder on Fast and Furious
Agent: I was ordered to let guns "walk" into Mexico
Gunwalking scandal uncovered at ATF
  
Also today, Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD) requested a public hearing with the former Director of ATF: Kenneth Melson.

"A  hearing with Mr. Melson would help the Committee and the American   people better understand what mistakes were made in Operation Fast and   Furious, how these tactics originated, who did and did not authorize   them, and what steps are being taken to ensure that they are not used   again," wrote Cummings in a letter today to Rep. Issa.

Rep. Cummings says Melson's attorney has indicated Melson would be "pleased to cooperate."
Below is a copy of the Cummings letter.
October 28, 2011
The Honorable Darrell E. Issa
Chairman
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, D.C. 20515
Dear Mr. Chairman:

As  I have stated repeatedly, I believe Operation Fast and Furious was a   terrible mistake with tragic consequences. As I have also stated, I   support a fair and responsible investigation that follows the facts   where they lead, rather than drawing conclusions before evidence is   gathered or ignoring information that does not fit into a preconceived   narrative.

On several occasions over the past month, you have called on  Attorney  General Eric Holder to appear before the House Judiciary  Committee to  answer questions about when he first became aware of the  controversial  tactics used in Operation Fast and Furious. The Attorney  General has  now agreed to testify before the House Judiciary Committee  on December  8, 2011, when you will have another opportunity to question  him  directly.

With respect to our own Committee's investigation, I  do not believe it  will be viewed as legitimate or credible-and I do not  believe the  public record will be complete-without public testimony  from Kenneth  Melson, who served as the Director of the Bureau of  Alcohol, Tobacco,  Firearms, and Explosives (ATF).

A hearing with  Mr. Melson would help the Committee and the American  people better  understand what mistakes were made in Operation Fast and  Furious, how  these tactics originated, who did and did not authorize  them, and what  steps are being taken to ensure that they are not used  again.

Our  staffs have already conducted transcribed interviews with Mr.  Melson  and the former Deputy Director of ATF, William Hoover. During  those  interviews, these officials expressed serious concerns about the   controversial tactics employed by the Phoenix Field Division of ATF as   part of this operation. They also raised concerns about the manner in   which the Department of Justice responded to congressional inquiries.   Both officials also stated that they had not been aware of the   controversial tactics being used in Operation Fast and Furious, had not   authorized those tactics, and had not informed anyone at the Department   of Justice headquarters about them. They stated that Operation Fast  and  Furious originated within the Phoenix Field Division, and that ATF   headquarters failed to properly supervise it.

Since the Attorney  General has now agreed to appear before Congress in  December, I believe  Members also deserve an opportunity to question Mr.  Melson directly,  especially since he headed the agency responsible for
Operation  Fast and Furious. My staff has been in touch with Mr.  Melson's attorney,  who reports that Mr. Melson would be pleased to  cooperate with the  Committee.
Thank you for your consideration of this request.

Sincerely,
Elijah E. Cummings
Ranking Member


Fast N Furious Investigation

Attached Files

•  holderidiot.jpg   23.53K   1 downloads

[Iceman]

Start with ATF Counsel Theresa Ficaretta. She has her hands in all things gun control. Go to the source.

btjohnson, on 26 October 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

On December 17th 2010, 2 days after Brian Terry was murdered, the ATF posted for comment a new regulation proposing the reporting of multiple rifle sales with detachable magazines in States bordering Mexico. The regulation was justified according to the written explanation accompanying the proposed regulation:  "...Successful trace data from recovered rifles confirm that the United States is a significant source of these rifles by FFLs in the southwest Border States, and that many have been sold by FFLs."

Was the political purpose of Fast and Furious simply the gathering of data for the purpose of the creation of new gun regulations – starting with ATF Form 3310.12, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles?

If the political purpose of “Fast and Furious” was creating crime data for regulatory reform, can a study of the regulatory creation process for ATF Form 3310.12, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles help us find out the political operatives that were behind the regulation and its data gathering methods?

[btjohnson]

On December 17th 2010, 2 days after Brian Terry was murdered, the ATF posted for comment a new regulation proposing the reporting of multiple rifle sales with detachable magazines in States bordering Mexico. The regulation was justified according to the written explanation accompanying the proposed regulation:  "...Successful trace data from recovered rifles confirm that the United States is a significant source of these rifles by FFLs in the southwest Border States, and that many have been sold by FFLs."

Was the political purpose of Fast and Furious simply the gathering of data for the purpose of the creation of new gun regulations – starting with ATF Form 3310.12, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles?

If the political purpose of “Fast and Furious” was creating crime data for regulatory reform, can a study of the regulatory creation process for ATF Form 3310.12, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles help us find out the political operatives that were behind the regulation and its data gathering methods?

[Historic Arms LLC]

Thank you webmaster.

I think that it important that people understand that an association of ALL federal agents have taken a stand on F&F.  

If "knowledge is power"....than this website is powerful in that respect.

[CUATF Webmaster]

Fall issue of "The Agent", official publication of the National Association of Federal Agents (NAFE), discusses "Operation Fast & Furious", et al.

Note: See Page 14 re: F&F:

Attached Files

•  The_Agent_Fall_2011.pdf   2.89MB   74 downloads

[GoodWorker]

I saw the show on Sunday and Rep Issa did a great job.  I am a  Democrat and I appreciate everything Issa has done.  The only thing that  surprised me was that Holder made the counter accusation that Issa's  committee was briefed on the F&F last year which Issa  acknowledge.  It was not clear how much was briefed ref guns  walking.  We need a Special Counsel to get to the bottom of this.

SilentObserver, on 09 October 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

[Excerpt] The House Oversight and Government Affairs Committee is planning on  issuing new subpoenas this week to determine who in the Justice  Department knew what about "Operation Fast and Furious" -- the plan to  let thousands of guns sold in the U.S. get into Mexican drug cartel  hands -- and when they knew it.

The subpoenas, expected to address an array of Obama administration  officials, aims to get at the heart of the authorization for the  program, and when the people in charge decided the program was a  problem.

"When did they know it wasn't the right way to do it and why (did) they  keep doing it?" asked committee chairman, Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.,

Issa, who is also a member of the House Judiciary Committee where  Attorney General Eric Holder testified in May that he'd only learned of  the program a few weeks earlier, told "Fox News Sunday" that "people in  the top" of the Justice Department knew about the operation, were  "well-briefed about it, and seemed to be the command and control and  funding for this program."  ...................

Fox News