Please contact me at sandraedavis@bellsouth.net if you have been told that you have a "Giglio" problem. We want these adverse decisions reviewed by a congressional attorney.
The one thing that has been bothering me about the ATF.
Started by Excalibur-2112, Oct 15 2011 11:43 AM
54 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 07 January 2012 - 12:00 AM
From page 108-09:
At a conference on the legal protection of whistleblowers, every lawyer who spoke agreed that the laws do not work very well and that new laws rarely help. All were “whistleblower lawyers”, most of whom had represented several whistleblowers. None pushed for legislation. This is confirmed by my interviews with whistleblower lawyers. None are particularly eager for new legislation, at least not of the type that congress is remotely likely to pass. Legislation is the business of the politicians, who may call a few whistleblowers to testify on behalf of their legislation. After reviewing hundreds of laws protecting whistleblowers, Miethe (1999, 147-48) concludes that “there are statutory protections for whistleblowers in state and federal codes and in the common law under the public policy exceptions to the termination at-will doctrine. Unfortunately, most legal protections for whistleblowers is illusory; few whistleblowers are protected from retaliatory actions because of numerous loopholes and special conditions of these laws and the major disadvantage that the individual plaintiffs have against corporate defendants.”
At a conference on the legal protection of whistleblowers, every lawyer who spoke agreed that the laws do not work very well and that new laws rarely help. All were “whistleblower lawyers”, most of whom had represented several whistleblowers. None pushed for legislation. This is confirmed by my interviews with whistleblower lawyers. None are particularly eager for new legislation, at least not of the type that congress is remotely likely to pass. Legislation is the business of the politicians, who may call a few whistleblowers to testify on behalf of their legislation. After reviewing hundreds of laws protecting whistleblowers, Miethe (1999, 147-48) concludes that “there are statutory protections for whistleblowers in state and federal codes and in the common law under the public policy exceptions to the termination at-will doctrine. Unfortunately, most legal protections for whistleblowers is illusory; few whistleblowers are protected from retaliatory actions because of numerous loopholes and special conditions of these laws and the major disadvantage that the individual plaintiffs have against corporate defendants.”
#3
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:09 PM
From page 19-20:
"Of the several dozen whistleblowers I have talked with, most lost their houses. Many lost their families. It doesn’t happen all at once, but whistleblowers’ cases drag on for years, putting a tremendous strain on families. Most whistleblowers will suffer from depression and alcoholism (Clark 1997, 1065; Miethe 1999, 77-78). Miethe (1999, 78) found that half went bankrupt. Most whistleblowers will be unable to retire. A typical fate is for a nuclear engineer to end up selling computers at Radio Shack.
These are tremendous shocks to the whistleblower. They are not, I believe, the greatest shock. The greatest shock is what the whistleblower learns about the world as a result - that nothing he or she believed was true. That people can be so deeply shaken by knowledge is not something I expected to find."
"Of the several dozen whistleblowers I have talked with, most lost their houses. Many lost their families. It doesn’t happen all at once, but whistleblowers’ cases drag on for years, putting a tremendous strain on families. Most whistleblowers will suffer from depression and alcoholism (Clark 1997, 1065; Miethe 1999, 77-78). Miethe (1999, 78) found that half went bankrupt. Most whistleblowers will be unable to retire. A typical fate is for a nuclear engineer to end up selling computers at Radio Shack.
These are tremendous shocks to the whistleblower. They are not, I believe, the greatest shock. The greatest shock is what the whistleblower learns about the world as a result - that nothing he or she believed was true. That people can be so deeply shaken by knowledge is not something I expected to find."
#4
PetePark1811
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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:18 PM
At this point, I longer care what they say, only what they do. We have been lied to for so many years I am only paying attention to action. The firing of Crenshaw is a huge step. I think Kelvin will turn on anyone he can and bring down the whole house of cards. I think that will be a good thing. More often than not, I think the comment about whistleblowers being ignored or disenfranchised is the common practice. You can quickly turn an outstanding agent into a ghost. It seems ATF's attitude is either you are with us or against us. Pointing out problems is not appreciated. Especially when the problem is management.
How can Acting Director Jones say he is not paying attention to CUATF, when the American people he serves ARE?
#5
VINCENT A CEFALU
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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:57 AM
How can Acting Director Jones say he is not paying attention to CUATF, when the American people he serves ARE?
From page 49:
To know what he has already learned, the whistleblower would have to give up what every right-thinking American believes in. To forsake this is particularly difficult for the largest group of whistleblowers I listened to: conservative middle-aged men. “Hell, I wasn’t against the system”, said Bob Warren. “I was the system. I just didn’t realize there were two systems.”
What must the whistleblower forsake in order to hear his own story?
That the individual matters
That law and justice can be relied upon
That ours is a government of laws, not men.
That the individual will not be sacrificed for the sake of the group.
That loyalty isn’t equivalent to the herd instinct.
That one’s friends will remain loyal even if one’s colleagues do not.
That the organization is not fundamentally immoral.
That it makes sense to stand up.
That someone, somewhere, who is in charge knows, cares, and will do the right thing.
That the truth matters, and someone will want to know it.
That if one is right and persistent, things will turn out all right in the end.
That even if they do not, other people will know and understand.
That the family is a haven in a heartless world. Spouses and children will not abandon you in your hour of need.
That the individual can know the truth about all this, not become cynical, cynical unto death.
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#6
The Shadow
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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:36 PM
"I enthusiastically joined the inside,
To make a difference on the outside.
Only to discover,
Making a difference on the outside,
Makes no difference to the inside".
Quote from an ATF James E. Little - Concern for People Award recipient and victim of the corrupted system.
To make a difference on the outside.
Only to discover,
Making a difference on the outside,
Makes no difference to the inside".
Quote from an ATF James E. Little - Concern for People Award recipient and victim of the corrupted system.
#7
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 15 December 2011 - 12:13 PM
From page 49:
To know what he has already learned, the whistleblower would have to give up what every right-thinking American believes in. To forsake this is particularly difficult for the largest group of whistleblowers I listened to: conservative middle-aged men. “Hell, I wasn’t against the system”, said Bob Warren. “I was the system. I just didn’t realize there were two systems.”
What must the whistleblower forsake in order to hear his own story?
That the individual matters
That law and justice can be relied upon
That ours is a government of laws, not men.
That the individual will not be sacrificed for the sake of the group.
That loyalty isn’t equivalent to the herd instinct.
That one’s friends will remain loyal even if one’s colleagues do not.
That the organization is not fundamentally immoral.
That it makes sense to stand up.
That someone, somewhere, who is in charge knows, cares, and will do the right thing.
That the truth matters, and someone will want to know it.
That if one is right and persistent, things will turn out all right in the end.
That even if they do not, other people will know and understand.
That the family is a haven in a heartless world. Spouses and children will not abandon you in your hour of need.
That the individual can know the truth about all this, not become cynical, cynical unto death.
To know what he has already learned, the whistleblower would have to give up what every right-thinking American believes in. To forsake this is particularly difficult for the largest group of whistleblowers I listened to: conservative middle-aged men. “Hell, I wasn’t against the system”, said Bob Warren. “I was the system. I just didn’t realize there were two systems.”
What must the whistleblower forsake in order to hear his own story?
That the individual matters
That law and justice can be relied upon
That ours is a government of laws, not men.
That the individual will not be sacrificed for the sake of the group.
That loyalty isn’t equivalent to the herd instinct.
That one’s friends will remain loyal even if one’s colleagues do not.
That the organization is not fundamentally immoral.
That it makes sense to stand up.
That someone, somewhere, who is in charge knows, cares, and will do the right thing.
That the truth matters, and someone will want to know it.
That if one is right and persistent, things will turn out all right in the end.
That even if they do not, other people will know and understand.
That the family is a haven in a heartless world. Spouses and children will not abandon you in your hour of need.
That the individual can know the truth about all this, not become cynical, cynical unto death.
#8
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 15 December 2011 - 11:25 AM
I'm not ATF, just a citizen of California and a responsible gun owner. I've been following the F&F story closely for several months, with shocked fascination and sadness. Corruption anywhere in the Justice Department is unacceptable. I salute the courage of the whistle-blowers that brought these issues in the ATF to the surface. Your personal sacrifice on our behalf is true patriotism and we owe you a great debt. About the only thing I can do is make sure that when I go to the ballot box I vote for those who will hold Justice management responsible, and vote out those that are enabling the problem. Without the hard facts that you bring to bear on the problem, we voters would be in the dark.
I logged in mainly to say this... so I'll go back to lurking now. Know that I am reading CUATF every day, even if you don't hear form me.
Thank you for having the courage to say what needs to be said.
a California Citizen
Thank you for paying attention. If more citizens would really look at what goes on within our government, there would be real reform and a lot fewer whistleblowers needed. There is a very simple answer to all of this and it is accountability. Until those within the federal government have real systemic accountability, these issues will only get worse.
#9
California Citizen
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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:25 PM
I'm not ATF, just a citizen of California and a responsible gun owner. I've been following the F&F story closely for several months, with shocked fascination and sadness. Corruption anywhere in the Justice Department is unacceptable. I salute the courage of the whistle-blowers that brought these issues in the ATF to the surface. Your personal sacrifice on our behalf is true patriotism and we owe you a great debt. About the only thing I can do is make sure that when I go to the ballot box I vote for those who will hold Justice management responsible, and vote out those that are enabling the problem. Without the hard facts that you bring to bear on the problem, we voters would be in the dark.
I logged in mainly to say this... so I'll go back to lurking now. Know that I am reading CUATF every day, even if you don't hear form me.
Thank you for having the courage to say what needs to be said.
a California Citizen
I logged in mainly to say this... so I'll go back to lurking now. Know that I am reading CUATF every day, even if you don't hear form me.
Thank you for having the courage to say what needs to be said.
a California Citizen
#10
Jay Dobyns
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- Bird
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- 33 posts
Regular
Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:24 PM
While preparing for a court filing I have due soon I came across this letter I composed to the OSC following an OIG investigation conducted into ATF mismanagement and corruption. It was written in October 2008. (Attached as a .pdf)
I am not a prophet but, considering that this letter was written (unbeknown to me) during the heart of Fast and Furious, it is somewhat prophetic. I had no way of knowing that the same people I was writing about were, at that time, orchestrating the biggest scandal in law enforcement history and doing so with impunity.
Curious is the OSC's conclusions delivered to President Obama. (Below) They flat out tell the President that ATF refuses to be accountable or hold any person responsible for blunders (mistakes is too kind of a word for these guys, sorry Mr. Holder). The process by which Fast and Furious came about, the people involved, the people who watched it an did nothing, and the ATF policy to deny and cover-up management's catastrophes - that has been here a long time, only in smaller doses.
It didn’t, and doesn’t, take any great intellect to know what was, is, and has been, wrong at ATF for a long time. History continues to repeat itself at ATF, usually with even greater recklessness and maliciousness. It also doesn’t take a smart guy to understand how to fix it. ATF was and can still be great. We should be. Logic, common sense and testicular fortitude need to override fear for the decision makers. There must be nothing worse to look at yourself and know you are a roll-over coward. I hope I never have to experience that.
“But Jay, you can’t say stuff like that! You can’t call out the White House and Holder on national TV! They’ll never let you win!”
They aren’t going to “let” me anything. "They" don’t get to “let” me win, "they" will fight to the death. I’ll win or lose all on my own and in spite of all the dirty traps "they" set.
Whistleblowers at ATF have, and continue to be told to shut-up-and-go-away. When they don't, they get trainwrecked with retaliation. It is happening as you read this message. Well, guess what, some of us haven't and won't. The truth never changes and even when you try to dodge it and cover it up, it always comes out. They simply cannot hide from it.
My advice to peers and friends has been that if you can live with yourself, keep it to yourself. If you can’t live with yourself by choking down the corruption, then speak out. Yes, that empowers the retaliators but how do you encourage your friends to wreck their careers and reputations knowing that no one of influence is going to support or help them? Keep quiet and keep getting paid is the path of least resistance.
Let the truth be your guide? Whistleblower protections? They are nothing more than words on a piece of paper. They are not enforced. ATF’s executives know it and take advantage of it. ATF treats the No Fear Act as a nuisance, not a law. If you do get in the fight prepare for it to be long, dirty and unjust – that is how ATF plays the game – and understand that no one’s coming to your rescue. You will win or lose all on your own and you will be forced to suffer for the truth along the way. Let’s not sugarcoat it – the powers that be will destroy you if they can.
Still want in? That’s OK, some of us will stay in the fight so the rest of us don’t have to.
OSC and OIG in 2008:
“I note with concern the absence of any corrective measures proposed to address the failure to conduct timely and thorough investigations into the death threats made against SA Dobyns. ATF does not appear to have held anyone accountable in this regard. Fully addressing the problems and failures identified in this case requires more than amending ATF policies and procedures. It requires that threats against ATF agents be taken seriously and pursued aggressively and that ATF officials at all levels cooperate to ensure the timely and comprehensive investigation of threats leveled against its own agents.” (OSC Report; Page 11; Paragraph 5)
“Notably absent from the report, however, is any statement from ATF regarding action taken to address the failure to adequately investigate the threats made against SA Dobyns.” (OSC Letter to the President of the United States; Page 2, Paragraph 2)
I am not a prophet but, considering that this letter was written (unbeknown to me) during the heart of Fast and Furious, it is somewhat prophetic. I had no way of knowing that the same people I was writing about were, at that time, orchestrating the biggest scandal in law enforcement history and doing so with impunity.
Curious is the OSC's conclusions delivered to President Obama. (Below) They flat out tell the President that ATF refuses to be accountable or hold any person responsible for blunders (mistakes is too kind of a word for these guys, sorry Mr. Holder). The process by which Fast and Furious came about, the people involved, the people who watched it an did nothing, and the ATF policy to deny and cover-up management's catastrophes - that has been here a long time, only in smaller doses.
It didn’t, and doesn’t, take any great intellect to know what was, is, and has been, wrong at ATF for a long time. History continues to repeat itself at ATF, usually with even greater recklessness and maliciousness. It also doesn’t take a smart guy to understand how to fix it. ATF was and can still be great. We should be. Logic, common sense and testicular fortitude need to override fear for the decision makers. There must be nothing worse to look at yourself and know you are a roll-over coward. I hope I never have to experience that.
“But Jay, you can’t say stuff like that! You can’t call out the White House and Holder on national TV! They’ll never let you win!”
They aren’t going to “let” me anything. "They" don’t get to “let” me win, "they" will fight to the death. I’ll win or lose all on my own and in spite of all the dirty traps "they" set.
Whistleblowers at ATF have, and continue to be told to shut-up-and-go-away. When they don't, they get trainwrecked with retaliation. It is happening as you read this message. Well, guess what, some of us haven't and won't. The truth never changes and even when you try to dodge it and cover it up, it always comes out. They simply cannot hide from it.
My advice to peers and friends has been that if you can live with yourself, keep it to yourself. If you can’t live with yourself by choking down the corruption, then speak out. Yes, that empowers the retaliators but how do you encourage your friends to wreck their careers and reputations knowing that no one of influence is going to support or help them? Keep quiet and keep getting paid is the path of least resistance.
Let the truth be your guide? Whistleblower protections? They are nothing more than words on a piece of paper. They are not enforced. ATF’s executives know it and take advantage of it. ATF treats the No Fear Act as a nuisance, not a law. If you do get in the fight prepare for it to be long, dirty and unjust – that is how ATF plays the game – and understand that no one’s coming to your rescue. You will win or lose all on your own and you will be forced to suffer for the truth along the way. Let’s not sugarcoat it – the powers that be will destroy you if they can.
Still want in? That’s OK, some of us will stay in the fight so the rest of us don’t have to.
OSC and OIG in 2008:
“I note with concern the absence of any corrective measures proposed to address the failure to conduct timely and thorough investigations into the death threats made against SA Dobyns. ATF does not appear to have held anyone accountable in this regard. Fully addressing the problems and failures identified in this case requires more than amending ATF policies and procedures. It requires that threats against ATF agents be taken seriously and pursued aggressively and that ATF officials at all levels cooperate to ensure the timely and comprehensive investigation of threats leveled against its own agents.” (OSC Report; Page 11; Paragraph 5)
“Notably absent from the report, however, is any statement from ATF regarding action taken to address the failure to adequately investigate the threats made against SA Dobyns.” (OSC Letter to the President of the United States; Page 2, Paragraph 2)
Attached Files
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Whistleblower Letter to the OSC.OIG 10.07.08.pdf 477.29KB
24 downloads
#11
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:25 AM
Twin - yes, I find that ironic and equally despicable.
CovertOne - I hope the bureau feels our collective anger/disgust and realizes that our numbers are growing. I was never a whistleblower under any definition. I fought the agency at first because they came after me personally. But I think what the snakes have always missed, is that this very intentional chilling effect that their retaliation has, can cut both ways. I watched as they came after the agents who stood up for me. I loved and admired these people. While I know many in ATF watched the retaliation and were driven further underground, a main purpose of retaliation, I stopped fighting for myself and became an advocate. Advocates are hard to intimidate and almost impossible to get rid of. As Alford points out in this book, it is not necessarily that people choose to throw themselves under the bus to do the right thing, but that they have an inability to stand back and say nothing. This has been a recurring problem for ATF. Some of the monsters they create refuse to go away.
Here's more from Alford's book:
"Whistle-blowing is about the quirky individual speaking out in a situation of moral ambiguity. Few will ever know his or her fate except those in the organization who are intimidated into even deeper silence by his or her sacrifice.
Usually the whistleblower is not fired outright. The organization’s goal is to disconnect the act of whistle-blowing from the act of retaliation, which is why so much legislation to protect the whistle-blower is practically irrelevant. The usual practice is to demoralize and humiliate the whistleblower, putting him or her under so much psychological stress that it becomes difficult to do a good job. If the whistleblower is under enough stress, he or she is likely to make a bad decision, justifying disciplinary actions. A surprising number of whistle blowers have been given closets for offices".
CovertOne - I hope the bureau feels our collective anger/disgust and realizes that our numbers are growing. I was never a whistleblower under any definition. I fought the agency at first because they came after me personally. But I think what the snakes have always missed, is that this very intentional chilling effect that their retaliation has, can cut both ways. I watched as they came after the agents who stood up for me. I loved and admired these people. While I know many in ATF watched the retaliation and were driven further underground, a main purpose of retaliation, I stopped fighting for myself and became an advocate. Advocates are hard to intimidate and almost impossible to get rid of. As Alford points out in this book, it is not necessarily that people choose to throw themselves under the bus to do the right thing, but that they have an inability to stand back and say nothing. This has been a recurring problem for ATF. Some of the monsters they create refuse to go away.
Here's more from Alford's book:
"Whistle-blowing is about the quirky individual speaking out in a situation of moral ambiguity. Few will ever know his or her fate except those in the organization who are intimidated into even deeper silence by his or her sacrifice.
Usually the whistleblower is not fired outright. The organization’s goal is to disconnect the act of whistle-blowing from the act of retaliation, which is why so much legislation to protect the whistle-blower is practically irrelevant. The usual practice is to demoralize and humiliate the whistleblower, putting him or her under so much psychological stress that it becomes difficult to do a good job. If the whistleblower is under enough stress, he or she is likely to make a bad decision, justifying disciplinary actions. A surprising number of whistle blowers have been given closets for offices".
#12
Twin
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Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:22 AM
Just a piece of information that I found very ironic and I thought I would share with those who do not know. Melson is the author of the Code of Ethics for the American Society of Laboratory Directors. His document is highly regarded in the forensic world. I just wonder why his viewpoint was relaxed when he was here at ATF.
#13
Guest_CovertOne_*
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Posted 11 December 2011 - 08:56 PM
I know several of our whistleblowers. Melson was happy to see them tormented. Carter and Hoover just went along with it and didn't lift a finger to help anyone. Our attorneys encouraged retaliations against them. Newell, Gillett and others took her advise. Jones is oblivious to what they have suffered, Brandon won't step outside his new box to do anything and Ford doesn't care about anything or anyone but Ford.
By the way. Where are you Melson? Hiding out in the woods with your dogs? You better be because you lied under oath. That may not mean anything to Holder but it does to Congress. You have been exposed as the liar you are and were. No wonder you tried to shut this website down so hard. You are and were an inaffective coward and guess what, all your "advisors" who you were listening to when we advised you not to - they have all turned on you and are telling everyone that will listen what a top to bottom f-up you were.
You should have done the right thing when you had the chance but instead you listened to a bunch of do-nothing, no-account, pompus, arrogent, never-good-agent, never-good-supervisor managers who sold you their line of bs.
Do I sound pissed off? Not really. Just disgusted by what bunch of weak people we continue to find and promote, the next not being able to do one thing better than the last. The 5th floor is the best ATF has to offer? We're doomed.
By the way. Where are you Melson? Hiding out in the woods with your dogs? You better be because you lied under oath. That may not mean anything to Holder but it does to Congress. You have been exposed as the liar you are and were. No wonder you tried to shut this website down so hard. You are and were an inaffective coward and guess what, all your "advisors" who you were listening to when we advised you not to - they have all turned on you and are telling everyone that will listen what a top to bottom f-up you were.
You should have done the right thing when you had the chance but instead you listened to a bunch of do-nothing, no-account, pompus, arrogent, never-good-agent, never-good-supervisor managers who sold you their line of bs.
Do I sound pissed off? Not really. Just disgusted by what bunch of weak people we continue to find and promote, the next not being able to do one thing better than the last. The 5th floor is the best ATF has to offer? We're doomed.
#14
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:31 PM
This was a profound read for me, although a very dark one. Everyone wants to believe in heros standing up and righting the warped system of organizational power. Unfortunately there really are no happy endings, just varying degrees of individual resiliency for those who choose to stand up. For those who chose not to stand up against the system, but have knowledge of specific corruption, they too can be harmed. Alford refers to this as “choice-less choice”. While many feel they have to stand down for themselves and their families, it still comes at a heavy emotional price.
Also, Alford does not necessarily use the legal definition of whistleblower, believing it is too narrow and the very definition itself causes it’s own harm and further discourages people from standing up and doing the right thing.
I hope that Senator Grassley is familiar with Dr. Alford’s work. I’d like to quote some of it here, not to discourage, but to hopefully inform and enlighten as to the severity of the problem. The following is from the preface of Alford’s book:
One of the first things I ever heard a whistleblower say was, “I’ve learned two things from being what you might call a professional whistleblower. When you go out in public, don’t cry, and don’t talk like your hair is on fire. If you do, no one will listen. It makes them uncomfortable”.
The whistleblower who said this was at a conference on the future of whistle blowing. Not a single panel had a current whistleblower on it, although at least a dozen whistleblowers were in the audience. Several asked why there were no whistleblowers on the panels.
The answer I believe, is that even the supporters of whistleblowers are afraid of the tears, the pain, the screams, and the horror; this fear teaches the whistleblower to subvert these experiences in the name of effective lobbying. There is a time and a place for that, of course, but I think we will not understand what is happening in our society until we listen to the tears, the pain, the screams, and the horror of those who have crossed a boundary they did not even know exists.
Also, Alford does not necessarily use the legal definition of whistleblower, believing it is too narrow and the very definition itself causes it’s own harm and further discourages people from standing up and doing the right thing.
I hope that Senator Grassley is familiar with Dr. Alford’s work. I’d like to quote some of it here, not to discourage, but to hopefully inform and enlighten as to the severity of the problem. The following is from the preface of Alford’s book:
One of the first things I ever heard a whistleblower say was, “I’ve learned two things from being what you might call a professional whistleblower. When you go out in public, don’t cry, and don’t talk like your hair is on fire. If you do, no one will listen. It makes them uncomfortable”.
The whistleblower who said this was at a conference on the future of whistle blowing. Not a single panel had a current whistleblower on it, although at least a dozen whistleblowers were in the audience. Several asked why there were no whistleblowers on the panels.
The answer I believe, is that even the supporters of whistleblowers are afraid of the tears, the pain, the screams, and the horror; this fear teaches the whistleblower to subvert these experiences in the name of effective lobbying. There is a time and a place for that, of course, but I think we will not understand what is happening in our society until we listen to the tears, the pain, the screams, and the horror of those who have crossed a boundary they did not even know exists.
#15
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:29 PM
A few months ago I projected that as the political season heats up, the congressional investigations would take on a political tone, and the plight agents such as Jay, Vincent, etc; would take a backseat to congressional agenda. As projected I think this is happing because of all the "other news" coming out. I now think it is time, the retired agents step up to the plate to support our active brothers and sisters in ATF. Letters to the editors of your local newspapers would be a good venue to start such support. In these letters readers should be directed to cleanupatf.org. Many people are unaware of the Fast and Furious and the general unethical "management" of ATF. We can't go it alone. We need support of the general public and with letters to the editors perhaps we can wake up some of the public. Our active duty agents can not very well write such letters since most newspapers require the writers name on lettes to the editor, so now is the time to take a stand by retired agents and start a letter writing. Retired agents can still make a differance!
It will take everyone who is able to do so working together to get real reform accomplished within ATF and this is probably the best chance historically to make that reform happen. Those who can not contribute openly will hopefully help from behind the scenes. And as of today, there are many newly retired agents who I pray will also become actively involved since the thugs within ATF will no longer be able to retaliate against them.
#16
Guest_RetiredwithIntegrity_*
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:38 AM
A few months ago I projected that as the political season heats up, the congressional investigations would take on a political tone, and the plight agents such as Jay, Vincent, etc; would take a backseat to congressional agenda. As projected I think this is happing because of all the "other news" coming out. I now think it is time, the retired agents step up to the plate to support our active brothers and sisters in ATF. Letters to the editors of your local newspapers would be a good venue to start such support. In these letters readers should be directed to cleanupatf.org. Many people are unaware of the Fast and Furious and the general unethical "management" of ATF. We can't go it alone. We need support of the general public and with letters to the editors perhaps we can wake up some of the public. Our active duty agents can not very well write such letters since most newspapers require the writers name on lettes to the editor, so now is the time to take a stand by retired agents and start a letter writing. Retired agents can still make a differance!
#17
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Posted 10 November 2011 - 12:40 PM
Message from Medea:
"should I be mailing your Christmas card to D.C. this year? Ho, Ho, Ho, with love and best wishes, Medea"
"should I be mailing your Christmas card to D.C. this year? Ho, Ho, Ho, with love and best wishes, Medea"
#18
VINCENT A CEFALU
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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:35 PM
Can't all be love. Those who deserve it get it, those that don't won't. We have tools. It ain't a perfect world. Charges ain't always the end all or the only way to hurt the bad guys. Sometimes we can only do what we can do. What we CAN'T do is walk guns. We will agree to disagree on the mechanics. Of course the world has changed and we need to as well. Keeping our own ATF Attache's out of the loop and not coordinating with our brothers on the other side of the border ain't changin. Its showboating. NO more EXCUSES. There are problems. WE get paid to find LEGAL, SAFE and ETHICAL means of overcoming those problems, and our Agents are the best in the WORLD at doing that. We lost our way badly on this one, and Senior management condoned and participated in it. Its that simple. Finally, I have reviewed that last few weeks of posting and I have not found any postings that could be characterized as critical of line Agents, Inspectors or Clerical staff. If your Championing the good bosses, their actions speak for themselves and don't need protecting. Check out the name of this website. CLEAN UP ATF. We are not a cheer-leading site for those people who do an outstanding job day in and day out. We are attempting to rid the Bureau of the cancer of the self serving narcissists who have destroyed virtually ever program we have. Not my words, read the OIG, OSC and Congressional records. We are doing our part, THEY,(being our leadership)are clearly the weak link. If it was genuine, thank you for the well wishes. The system may not be perfect but I believe in it, which means eventually the truth will be known.
Vince,
If this is loving ATF, I would hate to see you mad at ATF. So, the guy refuses to talk with you and you confront him and he stops trafficking guns. This has been standard policy for years. No charges. This is the reality of the situation. I don't want to get into anymore of the reality of the situation than that, but it isn't like we see a guy who looks like he is trafficking and we can go arrest him. We use to have the luxury of putting the fear of god into this guys, but with the violence of the cartels, things have changed. I am only trying to acknowledge that the world has changed over the past 20 years. I thought this would actually be an interesting discussion. Sorry for trying to add a point that you don't agree with. I would bet that there is a little more bad mouthing ATF every day on this site than GLORIFYING LINE AGENTS and Inspectors. Good luck. I hope you win you appeal.
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#19
ATFTRUTHTELLER
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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:53 AM
Read the complete sentences bro. I said IF, then you are a moron. Its your kind of linear thinking that insures failed or marginalized cases. Take his guns, (as you recall almost ALL of the straw purchasers guns had already been traced to violence in Mexico)(Remember Voth and Gillette bragging via email?)(and a few eggs comment?). I said Halfway to PC. READ SLOWLY. Make him and his attorney come in and explain why he makes $15000 a year and just bought $70,000 worth of guns. What do you like the chances you'll EVER hear from that guys again? Hein endith the lesson. I don't have time to school you. However, YOUR opinions are always welcome. BUT do not represent your opinion for fact. There is more line agent and Inspector glorifying that goes on day to day on this website than you can shake a stick at. WE LOVE ATF. We do however take exception to our veteran Agents being fired for nonsense,while perverted bosses are sticking their "Johnsons" through plywood in government quarters are getting promoted.Why do you think we have all laid our asses on the line to get it right. Blame the corrupt and inept managers for the chaos we are experiencing. NOT those who are trying to hold them accountable. Let me rephrase my earlier. I do NOW think you are a moron. You may feel free to remove the IF.
Vince,
If this is loving ATF, I would hate to see you mad at ATF. So, the guy refuses to talk with you and you confront him and he stops trafficking guns. This has been standard policy for years. No charges. This is the reality of the situation. I don't want to get into anymore of the reality of the situation than that, but it isn't like we see a guy who looks like he is trafficking and we can go arrest him. We use to have the luxury of putting the fear of god into this guys, but with the violence of the cartels, things have changed. I am only trying to acknowledge that the world has changed over the past 20 years. I thought this would actually be an interesting discussion. Sorry for trying to add a point that you don't agree with. I would bet that there is a little more bad mouthing ATF every day on this site than GLORIFYING LINE AGENTS and Inspectors. Good luck. I hope you win you appeal.
#20
ATFTRUTHTELLER
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Posted 20 October 2011 - 04:54 AM
So difficult to tell why our credibitliy is shot.
If you make a mistake, accept it - own it - correct it - learn from it - improve. No problem.
Lie, get caught in the lie, deny the existence of the lie.... a few people outside the DC beltway view that as unacceptable behavior so all hell breaks loose.
Life is so complicated.
Thanks Zorro,
Great Post. Hopefully ATF will someday learn this lesson.
#21
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:11 PM
So difficult to tell why our credibitliy is shot.
If you make a mistake, accept it - own it - correct it - learn from it - improve. No problem.
Lie, get caught in the lie, deny the existence of the lie.... a few people outside the DC beltway view that as unacceptable behavior so all hell breaks loose.
Life is so complicated.
If you make a mistake, accept it - own it - correct it - learn from it - improve. No problem.
Lie, get caught in the lie, deny the existence of the lie.... a few people outside the DC beltway view that as unacceptable behavior so all hell breaks loose.
Life is so complicated.
The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.
#22
VINCENT A CEFALU
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:22 PM
Read the complete sentences bro. I said IF, then you are a moron. Its your kind of linear thinking that insures failed or marginalized cases. Take his guns, (as you recall almost ALL of the straw purchasers guns had already been traced to violence in Mexico)(Remember Voth and Gillette bragging via email?)(and a few eggs comment?). I said Halfway to PC. READ SLOWLY. Make him and his attorney come in and explain why he makes $15000 a year and just bought $70,000 worth of guns. What do you like the chances you'll EVER hear from that guys again? Hein endith the lesson. I don't have time to school you. However, YOUR opinions are always welcome. BUT do not represent your opinion for fact. There is more line agent and Inspector glorifying that goes on day to day on this website than you can shake a stick at. WE LOVE ATF. We do however take exception to our veteran Agents being fired for nonsense,while perverted bosses are sticking their "Johnsons" through plywood in government quarters are getting promoted.Why do you think we have all laid our asses on the line to get it right. Blame the corrupt and inept managers for the chaos we are experiencing. NOT those who are trying to hold them accountable. Let me rephrase my earlier. I do NOW think you are a moron. You may feel free to remove the IF.
Nice use of passive aggressive. Next time, try "bless their heart"before saying something nice about ATF. My point is it is your right to buy 100 guns. PERIOD. ATF walks a fine line everyday. Pay attention to my post. ATF doesn't need anymore laws. PERIOD. You go on about defunding ATF without taking the time to discuss the problems they encounter. I think very few agents outside those directly involved knew what was going on. I just get tired on the slamming of ATF and that the american public thinks we need to be defunded. Fine. Give the gun laws to the FBI. ATF does not need anymore power or laws. We are underfunded and understaffed and we still do more than most other big federal agencies.
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#23
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:02 PM
One thing for certain, IF ATF is ever defunded it wont be because of you fine folks who started this forum.if he's not a mgmt plant, he must be one of those folks that practice giving aspirin tablets a headache at night.
It'll be because of ATF people like this nimrod here who clearly will be the sort to think ATF shouldnt be accountable to the American public paying its paycheck.
If his sort had any intelligence he'd not take up for ATF misdeeds, but would come clean, apologize and do what it takes to set things right again.
Thats ALL gun owners are wanting to see...just what you folks are doing HERE, but on a larger scale.
We want to know we can TRUST ATF as a WHOLE to enforce the law and not pull these operations and leave US out to hang. Or trying to set up legitimate gun dealers when an ATF operation goes south. And CERTAINLY not use intimidation tactics to stifle honest ATF agents when they do expose something thats amiss.
IF these nimrods had any common sense they'd do what it takes to get American confidence restored because we certainly NEED good law enforcement these days....men and women like you willing to put your lives on the line for American freedom.
But the sad thing is that unless some serious firings take place...and some folks go to jail for running guns into another sovereign nation, the NRA and the gun lobby as a whole..and many Americans who are just pissed about all this in general...arent going to see the GOOD men and women of ATF. Theyre just going to see headlines like 'ATF CORRUPTION' and do whatever they can to get ATF defunded.
But I dont suppose reality will ever kick in for these sorts until they wake up in line at a local food shelter.
Stubborness and egotism are liabilities, not assets.
Heres to hoping you good guys can win out and save the ATF and make it what it SHOULD be!
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#24
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:04 AM
guys - don't waste any effort with this guy - he's a plant.
Is there an ignore feature on this forum?
If so I'll put his worthless $$ on it asap so I dont have to read his garbage.
edit...nevermind...I found it. Hes ignored.
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#25
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:03 AM
Nice use of passive aggressive. Next time, try "bless their heart"before saying something nice about ATF.
Frankly you are REALLY starting to piss me off, pal.
I have NEVER attacked the ATF on this damned website, NOR have I attacked its agents.
I am ALLOWED to have MY goddam opinion based on the FACTS in this issue and Im sorry if YOU arent able to deal with that.
Either SHOW me where I have called all ATF personnel criminals or shut the hell up!
Sorry to the rest of you but this guy really shouldnt be allowed to post here.
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#26
The Original Ralph
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:41 AM
reminds me of the basic difference a german citizern pointed out to me between the logic of german and US laws. "your american law, if it is not prohibited by law, then it is allowed.... here in germany, if it is not in the law that it is okay to do, then it is prohibited. And if it is allowed, then it must be taxed, because it must be fun".
fwiw
fwiw
#27
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:38 AM
It is common sense!
But then so long as we still have idiots like Voth, Newell, McMahon, Chait, Ford, et al. in any position of authority within ATF, clearly 99 out of 100 US Senators (I guess one was absent) felt it was necessary to legislate this! I tend to agree with them.
Mr. Jones, does the Senate action send any message to you?
#28
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:36 AM
We needed a law for this? It's kind of like making a law against cutting your own schmeckle off. I kind of thought it was common sense!
It is common sense!
But then so long as we still have idiots like Voth, Newell, McMahon, Chait, Ford, et al. in any position of authority within ATF, clearly 99 out of 100 US Senators (I guess one was absent) felt it was necessary to legislate this! I tend to agree with them.
Mr. Jones, does the Senate action send any message to you?
#29
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:32 AM
guys - don't waste any effort with this guy - he's a plant. I suspected that when he and i got into it over waco, and the webmaster moved the thread - i didn't see his statement about the sheriff of waco actually approving and endorsing atf's actions there. This is not to re-argue that thread - but his stmt, when i found the thread later, after the move, was so blatantly false, i actually went out and bought another copy of the orig "waco:rules of engagement" to review the interview with the sheriff again - either this clown was lying or we're talking about different sheriffs of a different Waco. That alone told me all i needed to know about this guy.
what vince said "Check this out Truthteller,
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal...."
think about his web handle - i know it's intuition on my part, and nothing that would survive in court as empirical evidence, but just his name alone smells fishy "AtfTruthteller" ?? I mean, folks either use their real name, or grab one innocuous and anonymous, be it "Zorro", "Covert one", daffy duck, whovever. That name is too focus'd & purposeful for my liking. And while it's my intuition alone, i've made a living for too many years on my intuition.
This guy's only here to water down your assertions for the readership at congress or so someone at mgmt can say, with a somewhat straight face, - see, there are agents out there that don't agree with the whistleblowers.
if he's not a mgmt plant, he must be one of those folks that practice giving aspirin tablets a headache at night.
what vince said "Check this out Truthteller,
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal...."
think about his web handle - i know it's intuition on my part, and nothing that would survive in court as empirical evidence, but just his name alone smells fishy "AtfTruthteller" ?? I mean, folks either use their real name, or grab one innocuous and anonymous, be it "Zorro", "Covert one", daffy duck, whovever. That name is too focus'd & purposeful for my liking. And while it's my intuition alone, i've made a living for too many years on my intuition.
This guy's only here to water down your assertions for the readership at congress or so someone at mgmt can say, with a somewhat straight face, - see, there are agents out there that don't agree with the whistleblowers.
if he's not a mgmt plant, he must be one of those folks that practice giving aspirin tablets a headache at night.
#30
ATFTRUTHTELLER
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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:11 AM
First off WHERE DID I SAY that everyone in the ATF was a criminal? I submit that you need to learn to READ and pay attention because I never even suggested anything of the sort...but entirely opposite of that. So where are you coming up with that crap?
If youre not saying that I was doing so, then what the hell are you going on about?
My post was NOT slamming anything and if you could actually pay attention you would have figured that out. If anything Ive tried NOT to slam the ATF even though in many ways it deserves it.
So...lets say someone buys 100 guns tomorrow. What is the remedy YOU are suggesting?
You seem to be implying overall that you should have free reign to do whatever regardless of our rights. Is that what youre getting at?
Nice use of passive aggressive. Next time, try "bless their heart"before saying something nice about ATF. My point is it is your right to buy 100 guns. PERIOD. ATF walks a fine line everyday. Pay attention to my post. ATF doesn't need anymore laws. PERIOD. You go on about defunding ATF without taking the time to discuss the problems they encounter. I think very few agents outside those directly involved knew what was going on. I just get tired on the slamming of ATF and that the american public thinks we need to be defunded. Fine. Give the gun laws to the FBI. ATF does not need anymore power or laws. We are underfunded and understaffed and we still do more than most other big federal agencies.
#31
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:24 PM
We needed a law for this? It's kind of like making a law against cutting your own schmeckle off. I kind of thought it was common sense!
#32
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:17 PM
I think this is new...
Senate Unanimously Passes Amendment Banning Funds for Fast and Furious-Style Programs
The U.S. Senate unanimously voted in favor of an amendment Wednesday that guarantees zero funding for programs that include the transfer of firearms to drug cartels unless law enforcement continuously monitors the weapons "at all times."
The amendment stemmed directly from Operation Fast and Furious, the controversial botched weapons program, and was introduced by Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas.
The amendment passed 99-0, with only Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., missing the vote.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz1bCalE8WH
Senate votes to end 'Fast and Furious' gun program
The Senate voted Tuesday to effectively block the Justice Department from undertaking gun-smuggling probes like the flawed "Operation Fast and Furious" aimed at breaking up networks running guns to Mexican drug cartels but that lost track of hundreds of the weapons, some of which were used to commit crimes in Mexico and the United States.
The 99-0 vote would block the government from transferring guns to drug cartels unless federal agents "continuously monitor or control" the weapons. The amendment's sponsor, Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, called the vote "just the first step towards ensuring that such a foolish operation can never be repeated by our own law enforcement."
http://www.9news.com...us-gun-program-
http://news.yahoo.co...-212437339.html
http://www.timesonli...06f8d1fad5.html
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#33
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:11 PM
First off WHERE DID I SAY that everyone in the ATF was a criminal? I submit that you need to learn to READ and pay attention because I never even suggested anything of the sort...but entirely opposite of that. So where are you coming up with that crap?So, rather than address the points I made, you call me a moron. Nice. So if someone buys 100 guns that is PC. PC for what? Your honor, I need a search warrant because someone bought 20 guns. Seriously. So it is a crime to buy too many guns. No. It might make you want to investigate a little. What if he tells you to pound sand and won't talk. So far, you have an individual who bought 20 guns legally, refuses to talk with you and no guns have ever come back on a trace. Your next step is to give him a letter explain dealing without a license, not a search warrant. Next month you have the same guy buy another 10 guns. You go talk to him and he say "NO". Under your statement that is Probable Cause. Seriously?? All you have is a US citizen who purchased 30 guns legally and won't talk to you. Last time I checked it is his legal right to buy guns. Who am I to say how many? If I won the lottery, the list of guns I would buy would be mind boggling. It isn't like it was 20 years ago when the mexican nationals were scared of law enforcement. I am not trying to defend what happened in Phoenix. I know several agents who were there on the GRIT and had no idea what was going on. I can't find any excuse to tell a dealer to make a sale he isn't comfortable with. But I don't think it is right to call everyone in ATF a criminal without understanding the facts. I do see this kind of stunt done in Phoenix being used by the anti-gun lobby to tighten up the gun laws. The last thing ATF needs is anymore laws. We have plenty and not enough people to enforce them. I was only trying to point out some simple facts that seem to have been lost in the slam ATF postings. The point of this site was to bring to light the problems with ATF, not bad mouth every agent working the streets. Or am I wrong?
If youre not saying that I was doing so, then what the hell are you going on about?
My post was NOT slamming anything and if you could actually pay attention you would have figured that out. If anything Ive tried NOT to slam the ATF even though in many ways it deserves it.
So...lets say someone buys 100 guns tomorrow. What is the remedy YOU are suggesting?
You seem to be implying overall that you should have free reign to do whatever regardless of our rights. Is that what youre getting at?
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#34
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:06 PM
WELL SAID !I don't care what the NRA, GOA or any other partisan group thinks or doesn't think about the laws we enforce. They are the law of the land until Congress changes it. Its a convenient excuse that they wont let us do our job. I have NEVER been hindered, and that statement is supported by an ATF 100% conviction rate over 24 years.
In Ohio here we just passed restaurant carry.
While I think it was ridiculous that I couldnt carry into a business that served wine as long as I didnt drink, it WAS the law of the land here and MY job is to OBEY it and if its stupid work to get it changed...which we did.
When a LEO pulls me over I dont want him giving me concessions. I WANT him to ENFORCE the law as it is written. The reason being is that if he doesnt enforce it the law and lets me slide on something, speeding or whatever....then whose to say this same LEO wont change the rules when its NOT in my favor.
I want law enforcement to do their job....ENFORCE the law AS it is written. Leave the haggling and bargaining to a courtroom.
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#35
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:48 PM
Check this out Truthteller,
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal. I have worked ALMOST exclusively firearms trafficking cases and UC ops for my entire career. I am proud to have worked in Atlanta, (admittedly one of the heaviest source States in the Country) and not ONCE did we ever intentionally or knowingly let a firearms slip into the hands of a criminal through a "legal" straw purchaser. You clearly do not understand Terry, Escabedo, Miranda and the Federal rules of criminal procedure. Set down the mail order law book and journey with me into the real world for just a moment. First, if somebody is purchasing 100 semi-automatic rifles on the southwest border and doesn't present his FFL to the seller, you are halfway to PC. That stands for probable cause. Then you do what we ATF Agents call, INVESTIGATE. I really don't have time to break it down for you. However after my dispute with the agency is settled I will give you my email address and I will be glad to share techniques with you NOT on an open forum. Finally, 5 guns is a mistake. 20 guns is a big mistake. 2000 guns is a reckless and dangerous abuse of authority and an obstruction of justice. Stop defending the indefensible. Apparently you haven't gotten the memo that we have lied, concealed and manipulated and withheld the truth from Congress. I am in my 31st year as a badge totin, gun totin law enforcement Agent. I cant think of ONE, (while I'm sure they may be one), time I have lost an appeal, had a case overturned or was successfully sued over a 2nd amendment issue. That's the courts job. Stop whining about the big bad NRA wont let us do our job, and go do it. I don't care what the NRA, GOA or any other partisan group thinks or doesn't think about the laws we enforce. They are the law of the land until Congress changes it. Its a convenient excuse that they wont let us do our job. I have NEVER been hindered, and that statement is supported by an ATF 100% conviction rate over 24 years.
So, rather than address the points I made, you call me a moron. Nice. So if someone buys 100 guns that is PC. PC for what? Your honor, I need a search warrant because someone bought 20 guns. Seriously. So it is a crime to buy too many guns. No. It might make you want to investigate a little. What if he tells you to pound sand and won't talk. So far, you have an individual who bought 20 guns legally, refuses to talk with you and no guns have ever come back on a trace. Your next step is to give him a letter explain dealing without a license, not a search warrant. Next month you have the same guy buy another 10 guns. You go talk to him and he say "NO". Under your statement that is Probable Cause. Seriously?? All you have is a US citizen who purchased 30 guns legally and won't talk to you. Last time I checked it is his legal right to buy guns. Who am I to say how many? If I won the lottery, the list of guns I would buy would be mind boggling. It isn't like it was 20 years ago when the mexican nationals were scared of law enforcement. I am not trying to defend what happened in Phoenix. I know several agents who were there on the GRIT and had no idea what was going on. I can't find any excuse to tell a dealer to make a sale he isn't comfortable with. But I don't think it is right to call everyone in ATF a criminal without understanding the facts. I do see this kind of stunt done in Phoenix being used by the anti-gun lobby to tighten up the gun laws. The last thing ATF needs is anymore laws. We have plenty and not enough people to enforce them. I was only trying to point out some simple facts that seem to have been lost in the slam ATF postings. The point of this site was to bring to light the problems with ATF, not bad mouth every agent working the streets. Or am I wrong?
#36
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:58 PM
Excalibur - looks to me like you "get it" more than many people who claim to.
Anyone who says there are no anti-gun crusaders in ATF who see every gun owner and industry member as the enemy and/or a lower species worthy of perpetual torment is lying or naive.
Anyone who says the gun lobby or industry is 100% truthful about ATF is lying or naive.
Truth is repeating an often repeated mantra from within - that the gun lobby is in love with us because we are totally hamstrung by their political activity. I will call BS and counter with the gun lobby likes ATF to be a bit abusive and out of control. Weak, ineffective gun cops are terrible for fundraising. The days of Harlon Carter and Neal Knox when fund raising was a means to an end are over and they suck up cash like any government bureaucracy.
Of course, they don't have to make things up with F&F (which doesn't exist, remember?), turning ammunition into an explosive material, and multiple import scandals.
If you watched the F&F hearings, you saw anti-gun politicians trying to drag "we want more gun control" from several agents and you saw where most employees stand when they declined to comment citing their personal opinions were not relevant. As with all segments of society we sometimes get tainted by the lowest among us.
You are correct - if the dysfunction cannot be cleansed then it's time to "strike the tent".
Anyone who says there are no anti-gun crusaders in ATF who see every gun owner and industry member as the enemy and/or a lower species worthy of perpetual torment is lying or naive.
Anyone who says the gun lobby or industry is 100% truthful about ATF is lying or naive.
Truth is repeating an often repeated mantra from within - that the gun lobby is in love with us because we are totally hamstrung by their political activity. I will call BS and counter with the gun lobby likes ATF to be a bit abusive and out of control. Weak, ineffective gun cops are terrible for fundraising. The days of Harlon Carter and Neal Knox when fund raising was a means to an end are over and they suck up cash like any government bureaucracy.
Of course, they don't have to make things up with F&F (which doesn't exist, remember?), turning ammunition into an explosive material, and multiple import scandals.
If you watched the F&F hearings, you saw anti-gun politicians trying to drag "we want more gun control" from several agents and you saw where most employees stand when they declined to comment citing their personal opinions were not relevant. As with all segments of society we sometimes get tainted by the lowest among us.
You are correct - if the dysfunction cannot be cleansed then it's time to "strike the tent".
The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.
#37
VINCENT A CEFALU
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 01:23 PM
Check this out Truthteller,
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal. I have worked ALMOST exclusively firearms trafficking cases and UC ops for my entire career. I am proud to have worked in Atlanta, (admittedly one of the heaviest source States in the Country) and not ONCE did we ever intentionally or knowingly let a firearms slip into the hands of a criminal through a "legal" straw purchaser. You clearly do not understand Terry, Escabedo, Miranda and the Federal rules of criminal procedure. Set down the mail order law book and journey with me into the real world for just a moment. First, if somebody is purchasing 100 semi-automatic rifles on the southwest border and doesn't present his FFL to the seller, you are halfway to PC. That stands for probable cause. Then you do what we ATF Agents call, INVESTIGATE. I really don't have time to break it down for you. However after my dispute with the agency is settled I will give you my email address and I will be glad to share techniques with you NOT on an open forum. Finally, 5 guns is a mistake. 20 guns is a big mistake. 2000 guns is a reckless and dangerous abuse of authority and an obstruction of justice. Stop defending the indefensible. Apparently you haven't gotten the memo that we have lied, concealed and manipulated and withheld the truth from Congress. I am in my 31st year as a badge totin, gun totin law enforcement Agent. I cant think of ONE, (while I'm sure they may be one), time I have lost an appeal, had a case overturned or was successfully sued over a 2nd amendment issue. That's the courts job. Stop whining about the big bad NRA wont let us do our job, and go do it. I don't care what the NRA, GOA or any other partisan group thinks or doesn't think about the laws we enforce. They are the law of the land until Congress changes it. Its a convenient excuse that they wont let us do our job. I have NEVER been hindered, and that statement is supported by an ATF 100% conviction rate over 24 years.
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal. I have worked ALMOST exclusively firearms trafficking cases and UC ops for my entire career. I am proud to have worked in Atlanta, (admittedly one of the heaviest source States in the Country) and not ONCE did we ever intentionally or knowingly let a firearms slip into the hands of a criminal through a "legal" straw purchaser. You clearly do not understand Terry, Escabedo, Miranda and the Federal rules of criminal procedure. Set down the mail order law book and journey with me into the real world for just a moment. First, if somebody is purchasing 100 semi-automatic rifles on the southwest border and doesn't present his FFL to the seller, you are halfway to PC. That stands for probable cause. Then you do what we ATF Agents call, INVESTIGATE. I really don't have time to break it down for you. However after my dispute with the agency is settled I will give you my email address and I will be glad to share techniques with you NOT on an open forum. Finally, 5 guns is a mistake. 20 guns is a big mistake. 2000 guns is a reckless and dangerous abuse of authority and an obstruction of justice. Stop defending the indefensible. Apparently you haven't gotten the memo that we have lied, concealed and manipulated and withheld the truth from Congress. I am in my 31st year as a badge totin, gun totin law enforcement Agent. I cant think of ONE, (while I'm sure they may be one), time I have lost an appeal, had a case overturned or was successfully sued over a 2nd amendment issue. That's the courts job. Stop whining about the big bad NRA wont let us do our job, and go do it. I don't care what the NRA, GOA or any other partisan group thinks or doesn't think about the laws we enforce. They are the law of the land until Congress changes it. Its a convenient excuse that they wont let us do our job. I have NEVER been hindered, and that statement is supported by an ATF 100% conviction rate over 24 years.
Seriously! Enough! 99.9% of everything ATF does is good and serves the people. We strive to protect the 2nd amendment. We put extremely bad people in jail. But we also walk a fine line protecting the 2nd amendment and at the same time enforcing the gun laws. What really happened down in Phoenix still hasn't been reported. I was told that on four occasions agents tried to get a federal search warrant to recover guns sitting in a suspected traffickers safe house after watching the location for over 90 days. Sorry, judge said no. The guns were legally purchased and no crime had occurred. No arrests could occur till they tried to cross the border, if they ever did. Here is another little fact I just learned. Most of the agents who were done there on the GRIT didn't even know what was going on with the wire or that there was even a wire to begin with. Agents in Mexico didn't know. Agents in California didn't know. Agents in Texas didn't know. Here is another little fact. A large number of ATF agents came over from Border Patrol. ATF gets bashed for stuff they don't even do. Yes, agencies make mistakes. Fine with me if you give the gun laws to the FBI. The NRA will never let that happen. A weak and beaten ATF is what the gun lobby wants. I am not a fan of ATF management - period. I think Obama wants ATF gone so he can give the gun laws to the FBI. You leave out the little stories about the big FBI screw ups and attribute them to ATF. Unfortunately, when this is all over and the complete truth comes out, it will be too late for the true story to be reported. ATF missed their chance to tell their side of the story. Here is my one question for you. I know you won't answer it, but dance around. A suspected gun trafficker goes into a gun store and passes the NICS check and wants to buy 100 assault type weapons. What should the ATF agent do? It is his legal right to buy as many guns as he wants. He refuses to explain himself. The purchase is legal. Now what???? They aren't afraid of law enforcement anymore. The cartel will actually cut them into little pieces if they talk. They move the guns around for several months and split them into several stashes. No tracker will last that long. Now what???
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#38
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 09:40 AM
Are you kidding me? How can an agency that is and has been so full of corruption truly be serving the public's interest? Start posting under your real name and I'll give you hundreds if not thousands of examples of bad guys who were never removed from the streets b/c ATF agents were too busy fighting the agency to fight crime. And when you deny the obvious and the proven, you hurt all of our credibility. Please Excalibur and others, do not judge the rest of us by Mr. Truth Teller Man, he is either a management plant or has his head so firmly planted up his ass that there is simply no hope of telling him anything, and attempting to engage with him on any level will only distract from what so many are trying so hard to do - to make this complete train wreck called ATF into what it should be, and if that's not possible, to at least protect those who have tried.
I wish I had read this first before reading his post, Sandy.
It was clear that something was up, but I didnt think that it may be someone who may be responsible for a lot of the corruption.
No, I dont...and Im positive the NRA and the public doesnt...judge all agents for these gun running schemes.
We're watching every detail of this investigation and its become clear enough that this goes all the way to the Justice Department. What field agent could control it?
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#39
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 09:38 AM
I understand that from YOUR perspective this may be true...but from the PUBLIC perspective what WE have seen is abuse after abuse after abuse.Seriously! Enough! 99.9% of everything ATF does is good and serves the people. We strive to protect the 2nd amendment. We put extremely bad people in jail. But we also walk a fine line protecting the 2nd amendment and at the same time enforcing the gun laws. What really happened down in Phoenix still hasn't been reported. I was told that on four occasions agents tried to get a federal search warrant to recover guns sitting in a suspected traffickers safe house after watching the location for over 90 days. Sorry, judge said no. The guns were legally purchased and no crime had occurred. No arrests could occur till they tried to cross the border, if they ever did. Here is another little fact I just learned. Most of the agents who were done there on the GRIT didn't even know what was going on with the wire or that there was even a wire to begin with. Agents in Mexico didn't know. Agents in California didn't know. Agents in Texas didn't know. Here is another little fact. A large number of ATF agents came over from Border Patrol. ATF gets bashed for stuff they don't even do. Yes, agencies make mistakes. Fine with me if you give the gun laws to the FBI. The NRA will never let that happen. A weak and beaten ATF is what the gun lobby wants. I am not a fan of ATF management - period. I think Obama wants ATF gone so he can give the gun laws to the FBI. You leave out the little stories about the big FBI screw ups and attribute them to ATF. Unfortunately, when this is all over and the complete truth comes out, it will be too late for the true story to be reported. ATF missed their chance to tell their side of the story. Here is my one question for you. I know you won't answer it, but dance around. A suspected gun trafficker goes into a gun store and passes the NICS check and wants to buy 100 assault type weapons. What should the ATF agent do? It is his legal right to buy as many guns as he wants. He refuses to explain himself. The purchase is legal. Now what???? They aren't afraid of law enforcement anymore. The cartel will actually cut them into little pieces if they talk. They move the guns around for several months and split them into several stashes. No tracker will last that long. Now what???
Clearly the agents at the bottom dont likely have a lot to do with it BUT IRREGARDLESS the ATF HAS LEFT a bad taste in the mouths of the PUBLIC.
So you can tell me and us 'seriously ENOUGH'...but what the public is saying is the SAME THING.
No, its NOT YOUR personal fault....and yes, the ATF DOES DO a LOT of good. But when we LAW ABIDING type are in the line of fire, Im sorry its going to get the attention of both the gun lobby and the public at large.
So the question I have for YOU is...do you just not want to hear what the VOTING public has to say...you know, the men and women who ultimately pay your check and can complain enough to get the ATF defunded altogether....or would you like to go ahead and hear what WE have to say so that you are better armed in anything YOU might personally choose to do to actually change things in the ATF?
Believe me, Ive SEEN enough from NRA members to know that they ARE actually considering and talking about ATF defunding. Dont think that the NRA wants a 'weak' ATF. What they want is for gun laws to be enforced by LAW ABIDING law enforcement agencies. If the ATF doesnt do that, irregardless of whose fault it is, the NRA and the public at large WILL end up demanding defunding. It WILL happen if things continue on their current path simply because the gun owning public doesnt really care WHO caused it as much as they do that it DID happen.
As far as the drug cartels go, I dont think that this is an ATF issue, or a DEA one either. This has clearly become a job for the military of the United States. We have what basically amounts to an undefended border that is being used by an INVADING foreign 'army'. Its going to take a hell of a lot more than a few field agents to stop these cartels from crossing into this country. We need to put at least 50,000 armed troops on the border and shoot to kill anyone who seems to be cartel who crosses over as we would ANY invading armed force.
As far as agencies making mistakes, that is the point, this gunrunner thing WASNT a mistake. There was absolutely no way for the guns to be followed across the border or traced once they got into Mexico other than turning up at crime scenes where murders had taken place. So this cannot have been a sting operation gone wrong.
No, I dont believe that the field agents concocted this and based on Sandy's response its pretty clear that many agents may not have understood what was going on or if they did were too worried to say anything.
I understand that. But someone in the ATF DID know and DID plot this little scandal and THAT is what the voting gun owner knows. If the guys at the top of the ATF are capable of instilling so much fear that no one will stand against them then of course firing these guys at the top becomes necessary....or defunding altogether.
But hey....as you say...'seriously, Enough'...so'll I'll shut up about it HERE on this forum to keep from upsetting you, but when this escalates and the ATF is defunded dont blame me for not trying to let you know what law abiding gun owners might have been thinking and trying to communicate that to you here so you might have some information that may help you understand OUR view of the matter and possibly having information that could have helped you figure something out.
edit.
As far as your question to me....you answered your own question...the buyer is SUSPECTED of gun running and as far as I understand the law LEO's CAN detain someone for 'suspicious' behavior, especially if the person is already known to be a criminal.
So what is the problem?
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#40
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:11 AM
Seriously! Enough! 99.9% of everything ATF does is good and serves the people. We strive to protect the 2nd amendment. We put extremely bad people in jail. But we also walk a fine line protecting the 2nd amendment and at the same time enforcing the gun laws. What really happened down in Phoenix still hasn't been reported. I was told that on four occasions agents tried to get a federal search warrant to recover guns sitting in a suspected traffickers safe house after watching the location for over 90 days. Sorry, judge said no. The guns were legally purchased and no crime had occurred. No arrests could occur till they tried to cross the border, if they ever did. Here is another little fact I just learned. Most of the agents who were done there on the GRIT didn't even know what was going on with the wire or that there was even a wire to begin with. Agents in Mexico didn't know. Agents in California didn't know. Agents in Texas didn't know. Here is another little fact. A large number of ATF agents came over from Border Patrol. ATF gets bashed for stuff they don't even do. Yes, agencies make mistakes. Fine with me if you give the gun laws to the FBI. The NRA will never let that happen. A weak and beaten ATF is what the gun lobby wants. I am not a fan of ATF management - period. I think Obama wants ATF gone so he can give the gun laws to the FBI. You leave out the little stories about the big FBI screw ups and attribute them to ATF. Unfortunately, when this is all over and the complete truth comes out, it will be too late for the true story to be reported. ATF missed their chance to tell their side of the story. Here is my one question for you. I know you won't answer it, but dance around. A suspected gun trafficker goes into a gun store and passes the NICS check and wants to buy 100 assault type weapons. What should the ATF agent do? It is his legal right to buy as many guns as he wants. He refuses to explain himself. The purchase is legal. Now what???? They aren't afraid of law enforcement anymore. The cartel will actually cut them into little pieces if they talk. They move the guns around for several months and split them into several stashes. No tracker will last that long. Now what???
Are you kidding me? How can an agency that is and has been so full of corruption truly be serving the public's interest? Start posting under your real name and I'll give you hundreds if not thousands of examples of bad guys who were never removed from the streets b/c ATF agents were too busy fighting the agency to fight crime. And when you deny the obvious and the proven, you hurt all of our credibility. Please Excalibur and others, do not judge the rest of us by Mr. Truth Teller Man, he is either a management plant or has his head so firmly planted up his ass that there is simply no hope of telling him anything, and attempting to engage with him on any level will only distract from what so many are trying so hard to do - to make this complete train wreck called ATF into what it should be, and if that's not possible, to at least protect those who have tried.
#41
ATFTRUTHTELLER
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Posted 18 October 2011 - 06:30 AM
I would say that I think the ATF does 'suck' in a lot of ways...but probably because of what has been explained by Sandy.
I dont know if ATF folk understand this or not, but there is a lot of call for defunding of the ATF entirely.
If something doesnt happen to get upper mgt in line soon it may well become the main priority of 80 million gun owners to get the ATF shut down.
Right now as things stand I have to say Id be for such an effort. Especially seeing that at a time when ATF should being laying low for a while, they instead are trying to bring about MORE rules and regulations that ONLY affect the law abiding.
If things change for the better, however, and ATF becomes what it should be, my views could be changed pretty easily.
Law abiding gun owners like myself have had pretty much all we're willing to take. Every moron who gets into the White house seems to either declare war on us....or pull some underhanded crap that we dont find out about until after the fact (Obama and the Korean M1's comes to mind, not to mention the attempt to destroy a lot of used military brass last year or so).
We appreciate the good guys in the ATF, but if things dont change something is going to have to be done to get the ATF out of the picture altogether....which defunding probably would accomplish.
I certainly dont mean to bash or anything...but Im really just as sick of opening up yahoo.com every other day and seeing some news article that is telling some story about how law abiding gun owners are somehow a threat and need to be disarmed.
I obey the law to the letter. I have perfect credit. I dont litter, dont speed and wear my seatbelt every time. Id say I obey the law better than most cops do. Im courteous to other drivers and everyone I meet...yet somehow *I* end up being painted as a bad guy just because I own some a couple shotguns and a couple revolvers. Its a real pain in the arse sometimes. I feel like we have to watch every damned move Obama and others make to keep them from either openly trying to destroy our rights...or pulling some underhanded nonsense like this UN treaty that has no chance of passing now anyway.
Where does it stop? When do we go after the BAD guys and leave the good guys alone?
Seriously! Enough! 99.9% of everything ATF does is good and serves the people. We strive to protect the 2nd amendment. We put extremely bad people in jail. But we also walk a fine line protecting the 2nd amendment and at the same time enforcing the gun laws. What really happened down in Phoenix still hasn't been reported. I was told that on four occasions agents tried to get a federal search warrant to recover guns sitting in a suspected traffickers safe house after watching the location for over 90 days. Sorry, judge said no. The guns were legally purchased and no crime had occurred. No arrests could occur till they tried to cross the border, if they ever did. Here is another little fact I just learned. Most of the agents who were done there on the GRIT didn't even know what was going on with the wire or that there was even a wire to begin with. Agents in Mexico didn't know. Agents in California didn't know. Agents in Texas didn't know. Here is another little fact. A large number of ATF agents came over from Border Patrol. ATF gets bashed for stuff they don't even do. Yes, agencies make mistakes. Fine with me if you give the gun laws to the FBI. The NRA will never let that happen. A weak and beaten ATF is what the gun lobby wants. I am not a fan of ATF management - period. I think Obama wants ATF gone so he can give the gun laws to the FBI. You leave out the little stories about the big FBI screw ups and attribute them to ATF. Unfortunately, when this is all over and the complete truth comes out, it will be too late for the true story to be reported. ATF missed their chance to tell their side of the story. Here is my one question for you. I know you won't answer it, but dance around. A suspected gun trafficker goes into a gun store and passes the NICS check and wants to buy 100 assault type weapons. What should the ATF agent do? It is his legal right to buy as many guns as he wants. He refuses to explain himself. The purchase is legal. Now what???? They aren't afraid of law enforcement anymore. The cartel will actually cut them into little pieces if they talk. They move the guns around for several months and split them into several stashes. No tracker will last that long. Now what???
#42
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 17 October 2011 - 04:25 PM
When I opened this thread I assumed it was going to be a "ATF sucks" bashing. It turned out to be an intelligent discussion between Dealers and Agents. That is how it is suppose to be. In a perfect world we cooperate to stop the use of firearms in violent crimes. Unless of course ATF sets up the FFL to be the fall guy. FFL's many agents feel your pain. It is been brought down on us too as individuals. It all comes back to a willingness to accept and protect corruption at the highest level of ATF. Until that ends these stories will continue. Until Jones places meaningful accountablity on those involved in F&F there will always be skeptism from within the agency and the from public. As long as Newell and Co. remain in protected postions no one is going to fully trust or embrace the new crew.
I would say that I think the ATF does 'suck' in a lot of ways...but probably because of what has been explained by Sandy.
I dont know if ATF folk understand this or not, but there is a lot of call for defunding of the ATF entirely.
If something doesnt happen to get upper mgt in line soon it may well become the main priority of 80 million gun owners to get the ATF shut down.
Right now as things stand I have to say Id be for such an effort. Especially seeing that at a time when ATF should being laying low for a while, they instead are trying to bring about MORE rules and regulations that ONLY affect the law abiding.
If things change for the better, however, and ATF becomes what it should be, my views could be changed pretty easily.
Law abiding gun owners like myself have had pretty much all we're willing to take. Every moron who gets into the White house seems to either declare war on us....or pull some underhanded crap that we dont find out about until after the fact (Obama and the Korean M1's comes to mind, not to mention the attempt to destroy a lot of used military brass last year or so).
We appreciate the good guys in the ATF, but if things dont change something is going to have to be done to get the ATF out of the picture altogether....which defunding probably would accomplish.
I certainly dont mean to bash or anything...but Im really just as sick of opening up yahoo.com every other day and seeing some news article that is telling some story about how law abiding gun owners are somehow a threat and need to be disarmed.
I obey the law to the letter. I have perfect credit. I dont litter, dont speed and wear my seatbelt every time. Id say I obey the law better than most cops do. Im courteous to other drivers and everyone I meet...yet somehow *I* end up being painted as a bad guy just because I own some a couple shotguns and a couple revolvers. Its a real pain in the arse sometimes. I feel like we have to watch every damned move Obama and others make to keep them from either openly trying to destroy our rights...or pulling some underhanded nonsense like this UN treaty that has no chance of passing now anyway.
Where does it stop? When do we go after the BAD guys and leave the good guys alone?
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#43
limestonenerd
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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:30 AM
When I opened this thread I assumed it was going to be a "ATF sucks" bashing. It turned out to be an intelligent discussion between Dealers and Agents. That is how it is suppose to be. In a perfect world we cooperate to stop the use of firearms in violent crimes. Unless of course ATF sets up the FFL to be the fall guy. FFL's many agents feel your pain. It is been brought down on us too as individuals. It all comes back to a willingness to accept and protect corruption at the highest level of ATF. Until that ends these stories will continue. Until Jones places meaningful accountablity on those involved in F&F there will always be skeptism from within the agency and the from public. As long as Newell and Co. remain in protected postions no one is going to fully trust or embrace the new crew.
#44
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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:04 AM
As has been said before, ATF management and Chief Counsel's Office need a good enema. Stirring the crap around won't solve the problem; the crap needs to be flushed out of the system and down the drain.
This needs to be done for the ATF employees, the industry, and the general public!
This needs to be done for the ATF employees, the industry, and the general public!
#45
Ike
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 10:36 PM
Sandy:
Thank you for saying what you did about FFLs trying to fight ATF corruption. You are absolutely right. I have witnessed ATF regulatory "Investigators" misrepresent and lie regarding FFLs to attempt a revocation. Some will 'invent' new bookkeeping violations even though the practice is specifically allowed by law or regulation. I have also witnessed ATF employees retaliate against an FFL calling in an investigation of the FFL under the guise of an annual inspection. Why? Because the ATF employee was dead wrong in dealing with the FFL, so the FFL elevated the problem to his Congressman. By the way, using an annual inspection to conduct a criminal investigation of the FFL is strictly illegal - but is frequently done.
On another note, when ATF conducts a certain number of traces that point to a certain dealer, that dealer is subject to additional scrutiny during annual inspections - regardless of how innocent the dealer is and no matter how innocent the traces. Fair? Not hardly. Any dealer who cooperates with ATF and completes sales that later get traced back to him (as in Fast and Furious, etc.) - even years later, will repeatedly get extra special attention and scrutiny by the regulatory side of ATF.
To the whistleblowers: Those of us who have seen or experienced ATF agency corruption know the personal risks you are taking and the sacrifices you are making. You have our gratitude and respect.
Thank you for saying what you did about FFLs trying to fight ATF corruption. You are absolutely right. I have witnessed ATF regulatory "Investigators" misrepresent and lie regarding FFLs to attempt a revocation. Some will 'invent' new bookkeeping violations even though the practice is specifically allowed by law or regulation. I have also witnessed ATF employees retaliate against an FFL calling in an investigation of the FFL under the guise of an annual inspection. Why? Because the ATF employee was dead wrong in dealing with the FFL, so the FFL elevated the problem to his Congressman. By the way, using an annual inspection to conduct a criminal investigation of the FFL is strictly illegal - but is frequently done.
On another note, when ATF conducts a certain number of traces that point to a certain dealer, that dealer is subject to additional scrutiny during annual inspections - regardless of how innocent the dealer is and no matter how innocent the traces. Fair? Not hardly. Any dealer who cooperates with ATF and completes sales that later get traced back to him (as in Fast and Furious, etc.) - even years later, will repeatedly get extra special attention and scrutiny by the regulatory side of ATF.
To the whistleblowers: Those of us who have seen or experienced ATF agency corruption know the personal risks you are taking and the sacrifices you are making. You have our gratitude and respect.
#46
Mister Ed
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 04:40 PM
I came across this information on the Internet. Supboneas have been issued. Interesting reading.
http://www.cbsnews.c...n20120732.shtml
http://www.sodahead....estion-2220963/
http://www.scpr.org/...ast-and-furious
http://www.cbsnews.c...n20120732.shtml
http://www.sodahead....estion-2220963/
http://www.scpr.org/...ast-and-furious
#47
JustWondering
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:50 AM
Likely not much if that gun owner tries to fight ATF corruption alone.
exactly....
My point being, that if elements withen the BATF are willing to lie, cheat, and backstab one another over internal matters, then the average joe has no chance.
A sad state of affairs to be sure. I hope more agents are willing to come out and tell the truth about the corruption, hopefully enough will come forward that it will make retalliation impractical.
To all those that have come forward, thank you.
#48
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:25 AM
Sandy, thanks for the insight.
I have to wonder though, if ATF management is willing to act this way towards their own people, what chance does the average gun owner have when the ATF sets their sights on them?
Likely not much if that gun owner tries to fight ATF corruption alone. I do however believe that it is important that the public understands the true mission of ATF, and that the vast majority of agents want nothing more to protect the public by putting the most violent of criminals in jail. I am ashamed and saddened by the abuses I have seen and continue to hear about. I pray that ATF will one day become what it was meant to be before it was taken over by self-serving, arrogant, and sometimes truly evil so-called leaders. However, with some of the recent 'chair shuffling' and promotions, that's not looking too good. Call you senators and congressmen and let them know that you the public are paying attention.
#49
JustWondering
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:07 AM
Thank you for caring enough to inquire.
Sandy, thanks for the insight.
I have to wonder though, if ATF management is willing to act this way towards their own people, what chance does the average gun owner have when the ATF sets their sights on them?
#50
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:05 AM
Wow, Sandy. I guess that does a good job of explaining it. Thank you for the insight.
Thank you for caring enough to inquire.
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