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Things FFLs May Want to Know......


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#1 FUBAR

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:14 PM

Yes Ike, that is what our "leaders" at ATF have always done to congressmen, they lie to them. You'd be hard pressed to find an instance where they actually told the truth when there was a congressional inquiry. It's one of the few areas in ATF where there has been absolute consistency. I'm sure Madea could give you many other examples where ATF management just flat out lied to congress.

Alaskan Congressman Don Young met with ATF Deputy Director Tom Brandon on May 18, 2012. Congressman Young had sent a letter on April 24 which called on the ATF to explain why its agents had been visiting Alaskan gun dealers and asking for copies of their gun sale records.

During today’s meeting Deputy Director Brandon assured me that this is not an accepted practice at the ATF..."

From the ATF public information office: "Mr. Brandon also used the meeting as an opportunity to affirmatively state that ATF has never maintained a database of lawful firearms owners; is not permitted by law to create and maintain such a database; and has no intention whatsoever of collecting any information for such a database."

These are absolute, bald-faced lies. ATF has been copying FFL Bound Books for years - with or without FFL permission. During annual compliance inspections in other states, FFL dealers have reported that ATF industry operations investigators (IOI) brought in digital cameras and photographed the entire dealer "Bound Book" without permission of the FFL holder. Other dealers reported investigators brought in digital scanners and scanned portions of the Bound Book - line by line. Of course, the Bound Book contains the dealer's full record of lawful firearm sales transaction records.

"ATF has never maintained a database of lawful firearms owners"? Oh, yeah? What about this:

The ATF Firearm Tracing System (eTrace) provides manual & automated data retrieval of lawful firearms owners and transactions from the following sources:

1. All previous firearms traces from all sources,
2. Dealer, Importer, and Manufacturer computer, paper or microfilm “Bound Book” Out-of-Business records (including digital files required by ATF Ruling 2008-2),
3. Dealer “Bound Book” records (computer and/or paper) copied or photographed by ATF during annual inspections.
4 ATF Form 4473 from dealers copied or photographed during annual inspections and in Out-of-Business records.
5. Multiple Firearm Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4)
6. Traditional trace phone calls to the manufacturer, distributor and final selling dealer,
7. Additional data sources, such as some state firearms sales records as required by state law or policy.
8. Dealer “Bound Books” over 20 years old voluntarily sent in to ATF, including some antique firearms allowed to be entered in “Bound Books”.
9. Stolen firearms reported to ATF (Not NCIC).
10. System 2000 automated retrieval system from manufacturers, importers and distributors (100 companies as of 2010)
11. Certain firearms dealers required by ATF to report certain used firearms transaction to ATF for entry into the Firearms Tracing System.
12. For every firearm reported stolen to the NCIC stolen firearms database, New Jersey now automatically submits a trace to ATF (NJ Trace System). ATF is reported as working on a similar program.
13. Some state firearm registration systems are being loaded into the ATF tracing system.
14. In a press release, New Jersey admits tracing (from police records) all of private gun purchases into the ATF Firearms Tracing System through eTrace. By state law, New York and Connecticut also require tracing of all such private purchase firearms.
15. ATF hired private consultants to catalog information on firearms and submit trace requests from police departments to ATF.
16. ATF has imposed a requirement (pilot project) to report all dealer multiple sales (2 or more) of all semi-auto rifles with a detachable magazine greater than .22 caliber. (Currently restricted to California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas - border states with Mexico). This requirement
includes 100 year old Model 1907 Winchester rifles, WWII M1 Carbines, German G43 rifles, FN 49 rifles, and many other historic firearms of primary
interest to collectors which are not known to be used by Mexican drug catels. Over 7,000 lawful firearm sales reported to date.

This is not an inclusive list, as other sources exist.

Lawful firearms owners and transaction records are held in the following ATF databases at ATF's National Tracing Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia:

1. Multiple Sale Reports. Multiple handgun sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.

2. Suspect Guns. All guns "suspected" of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms (including collectors of older firearms rarely used in crime), and dealers with "improper" record keeping. May include guns “observed” by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere. Reported as 34,807 records in 2010.

3. Traced Guns. Detail results from all traces, no matter how innocent. A total of 4 million trace records since inception. This is a registration record of lawful firearm owners which includes Name and Address of the first retail seller and Name, Address and personal information for the first lawful purchaser. This information is fully reported to the requesting agency - including corrupt Mexican, Central American, and South American Police.

4. Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records, indexed by serial number, which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form - in digital or image format. In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968.

5. Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010. Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional). Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported.

ATF holds hundreds of millions of lawful firearm owner and sale transaction records.

And Mr. Brandon has the gall to say, "ATF has never maintained a database of lawful firearms owners"? Really? Is the above information wrong????



#2 Ike

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:38 PM

Alaskan Congressman Don Young met with ATF Deputy Director Tom Brandon on May 18, 2012. Congressman Young had sent a letter on April 24 which called on the ATF to explain why its agents had been visiting Alaskan gun dealers and asking for copies of their gun sale records.

During today’s meeting Deputy Director Brandon assured me that this is not an accepted practice at the ATF..."

From the ATF public information office: "Mr. Brandon also used the meeting as an opportunity to affirmatively state that ATF has never maintained a database of lawful firearms owners; is not permitted by law to create and maintain such a database; and has no intention whatsoever of collecting any information for such a database."

These are absolute, bald-faced lies. ATF has been copying FFL Bound Books for years - with or without FFL permission. During annual compliance inspections in other states, FFL dealers have reported that ATF industry operations investigators (IOI) brought in digital cameras and photographed the entire dealer "Bound Book" without permission of the FFL holder. Other dealers reported investigators brought in digital scanners and scanned portions of the Bound Book - line by line. Of course, the Bound Book contains the dealer's full record of lawful firearm sales transaction records.

"ATF has never maintained a database of lawful firearms owners"? Oh, yeah? What about this:

The ATF Firearm Tracing System (eTrace) provides manual & automated data retrieval of lawful firearms owners and transactions from the following sources:

1. All previous firearms traces from all sources,
2. Dealer, Importer, and Manufacturer computer, paper or microfilm “Bound Book” Out-of-Business records (including digital files required by ATF Ruling 2008-2),
3. Dealer “Bound Book” records (computer and/or paper) copied or photographed by ATF during annual inspections.
4 ATF Form 4473 from dealers copied or photographed during annual inspections and in Out-of-Business records.
5. Multiple Firearm Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4)
6. Traditional trace phone calls to the manufacturer, distributor and final selling dealer,
7. Additional data sources, such as some state firearms sales records as required by state law or policy.
8. Dealer “Bound Books” over 20 years old voluntarily sent in to ATF, including some antique firearms allowed to be entered in “Bound Books”.
9. Stolen firearms reported to ATF (Not NCIC).
10. System 2000 automated retrieval system from manufacturers, importers and distributors (100 companies as of 2010)
11. Certain firearms dealers required by ATF to report certain used firearms transaction to ATF for entry into the Firearms Tracing System.
12. For every firearm reported stolen to the NCIC stolen firearms database, New Jersey now automatically submits a trace to ATF (NJ Trace System). ATF is reported as working on a similar program.
13. Some state firearm registration systems are being loaded into the ATF tracing system.
14. In a press release, New Jersey admits tracing (from police records) all of private gun purchases into the ATF Firearms Tracing System through eTrace. By state law, New York and Connecticut also require tracing of all such private purchase firearms.
15. ATF hired private consultants to catalog information on firearms and submit trace requests from police departments to ATF.
16. ATF has imposed a requirement (pilot project) to report all dealer multiple sales (2 or more) of all semi-auto rifles with a detachable magazine greater than .22 caliber. (Currently restricted to California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas - border states with Mexico). This requirement
includes 100 year old Model 1907 Winchester rifles, WWII M1 Carbines, German G43 rifles, FN 49 rifles, and many other historic firearms of primary
interest to collectors which are not known to be used by Mexican drug catels. Over 7,000 lawful firearm sales reported to date.

This is not an inclusive list, as other sources exist.

Lawful firearms owners and transaction records are held in the following ATF databases at ATF's National Tracing Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia:

1. Multiple Sale Reports. Multiple handgun sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.

2. Suspect Guns. All guns "suspected" of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms (including collectors of older firearms rarely used in crime), and dealers with "improper" record keeping. May include guns “observed” by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere. Reported as 34,807 records in 2010.

3. Traced Guns. Detail results from all traces, no matter how innocent. A total of 4 million trace records since inception. This is a registration record of lawful firearm owners which includes Name and Address of the first retail seller and Name, Address and personal information for the first lawful purchaser. This information is fully reported to the requesting agency - including corrupt Mexican, Central American, and South American Police.

4. Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records, indexed by serial number, which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form - in digital or image format. In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968.

5. Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010. Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional). Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported.

ATF holds hundreds of millions of lawful firearm owner and sale transaction records.

And Mr. Brandon has the gall to say, "ATF has never maintained a database of lawful firearms owners"? Really? Is the above information wrong????

#3 The Original Ralph

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:54 AM

Attention: FFLs who wonder why their complaints are not investigated:

Madea has been thinking about her recent conversation with the AD for OPRSO. Now you remember Madea was told by the AD that an investigation of Newell and Needles was not going to be pursued. The reason given by the AD was that the person providing the information was now retired from ATF. He was a private citizen now. The AD explained this had “always been the policy”. Madea has been sitting here shaking her head trying to figure that out. Apparently all that shaking loosened something in her brain. She realized if I.A. won’t investigate a charge after the agent making the allegation retires or resigns, doesn’t that apply to other private citizens who complain, like FFLs? Now if there’s an exception for the FFLs, Tom explain why it doesn’t apply to an agent who has left employment.



#4 Guest_madea_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:52 AM

Attention: FFLs who wonder why their complaints are not investigated:

Madea has been thinking about her recent conversation with the AD for OPRSO. Now you remember Madea was told by the AD that an investigation of Newell and Needles was not going to be pursued. The reason given by the AD was that the person providing the information was now retired from ATF. He was a private citizen now. The AD explained this had “always been the policy”. Madea has been sitting here shaking her head trying to figure that out. Apparently all that shaking loosened something in her brain. She realized if I.A. won’t investigate a charge after the agent making the allegation retires or resigns, doesn’t that apply to other private citizens who complain, like FFLs? Now if there’s an exception for the FFLs, Tom explain why it doesn’t apply to an agent who has left employment.


#5 Guest_leaderofthetards_*

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:47 AM

Sorry Leader, you may have embarrassed yourself with your confidence on this. The newer agents might not remember, but Ken Vicchio received a cash award larger than the awards given to working agents. He put together the HQ picnic. But let's not underestimate what it takes to keep potato salad cold at a picnic or to count out the right amount of weenies.

Hey Tom, this is a good idea, these awards. This will certainly elimanate the tension between the field and management.




Well, I see I was wrong on this one. There IS a newly created award for ATF attorneys for their "advocay" and "professionalism". Yep, I have indeed embarrassed myself by once again underestimating the arrogance, stupidity, and level of crazy in ATF leaders.

Tom, I think it would be helpful to define "advocacy" and "professionalism". For instance, what kind of "advocacy"? ATF attorneys do advocate for corrupt managers and they do this WELL. Oh yeah, this should be a great morale booster. I'm loving these changes Tom!!!!



#6 Guest_madea_*

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 05:55 AM

Sorry Leader, you may have embarrassed yourself with your confidence on this. The newer agents might not remember, but Ken Vicchio received a cash award larger than the awards given to working agents. He put together the HQ picnic. But let's not underestimate what it takes to keep potato salad cold at a picnic or to count out the right amount of weenies.

Hey Tom, this is a good idea, these awards. This will certainly elimanate the tension between the field and management.

Ok people, I think paranoia is starting to take over. I'm hearing all sorts of chatter about a new award this year for the best ATF attorney. Not even the 5th floor would be this stupid. I mean really, which attorney would get this award? The one/s who approved F&F? The one who withheld the most discovery? The one who has coerced/threatened the most employees? How about the one who lied the most to get an employee disciplined? Nope. No way are they that arrogant, that stupid, or that delusional to think an award such as this wouldn't open the floodgates on exposing these attorneys. This is the last thing they want to do with the Judiciary Committee looking into what was going on at ATF that laid the groundwork for F&F to occur.


Finally, I can say with some degree of confidence that not even the leaders at ATF are this crazy.



#7 Guest_madea_*

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 05:53 AM

Ok people, I think paranoia is starting to take over. I'm hearing all sorts of chatter about a new award this year for the best ATF attorney. Not even the 5th floor would be this stupid. I mean really, which attorney would get this award? The one/s who approved F&F? The one who withheld the most discovery? The one who has coerced/threatened the most employees? How about the one who lied the most to get an employee disciplined? Nope. No way are they that arrogant, that stupid, or that delusional to think an award such as this wouldn't open the floodgates on exposing these attorneys. This is the last thing they want to do with the Judiciary Committee looking into what was going on at ATF that laid the groundwork for F&F to occur.


Finally, I can say with some degree of confidence that not even the leaders at ATF are this crazy.



#8 Guest_leaderofthetards_*

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 09:27 PM

Ok people, I think paranoia is starting to take over. I'm hearing all sorts of chatter about a new award this year for the best ATF attorney. Not even the 5th floor would be this stupid. I mean really, which attorney would get this award? The one/s who approved F&F? The one who withheld the most discovery? The one who has coerced/threatened the most employees? How about the one who lied the most to get an employee disciplined? Nope. No way are they that arrogant, that stupid, or that delusional to think an award such as this wouldn't open the floodgates on exposing these attorneys. This is the last thing they want to do with the Judiciary Committee looking into what was going on at ATF that laid the groundwork for F&F to occur.


Finally, I can say with some degree of confidence that not even the leaders at ATF are this crazy.

#9 Guest_madea_*

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 06:26 AM

Listen up folks....If ATF filed with the MSPB in your case and the pleadings were sent through the MSPB E-File system there is an online interview involved. Question #2 asks if the ATF attorney has personal knowledge of the facts in the pleading. Question #3 makes them declare under penalty of perjury that the facts are true and correct. Find out from your attorney if ATF is using the electronic filing and read their pleadings carefully. If you think there were false statements contact me at sandraedavis@bellsouth.net.

Happy Hunting!


#10 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:05 PM

There is a package being sent to congress involving OCC Attorney Bittelari. Has anyone else had problems with this attorney? If so, please contact me at sandraedavis@bellsouth.net.

#11 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 03:31 AM

Note: my email address listed below has a typo. The correct address is sandraedavis@bellsouth.net

Also, all case summaries going directly to Congressman Issa's office should be sent Attention To: Ashok Pinto


DEADLINE for submission of case summaries!!!!!


ATTENTION.....It appears as if Congress is going to hold hearings specific to ATF waste, fraud, and abuse, as well as prohibited personnel actions. These hearings are tentatively to be held in February. I applaud this new development as it is the only way for Congress and the American public to understand how the climate at ATF was such that Fast and Furious could have ever occurred in the first place.


Please contact anyone you may know of who has been terminated and/or had a harsh personnel action taken against them whether they are ATF employees in Law Enforcement or Industry ops or Clerical Staff. Particularly those that have occurred on Eric Holder’s watch. Please do not assume that someone’s case has no merit because that is what you heard. ATF always puts out the word that these cases have no merit. Isn’t that right Eleanor?


Here’s what we are looking for:


A brief 8-10 bullet point synopsis on the main issues in your case. Please do not send any other documentation at this point, just be prepared to back up your points with the documentation at the appropriate time. Please make your points as short and concise as possible.


We are asking for two separate summaries here; prohibited personnel actions as well as examples of misconduct by ATF’s Chief Counsel’s Office. If you have both, please send them labeled as such.


You can either send your summary to Issa’s office directly,mail, or fax # here,
2157 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, DC 20515
PHONE: (202) 225-5074 FAX: (202) 225-3974


Or you can use this link at the House Oversight Committee
Click the link and go to the whistle blower link at the top of the page and fill out the message form..House Oversight Whistle blower form
(Attention Ashok Pinto) or send it to me. The summaries sent to me will be reviewed by Kay Kubicki and those that are the most significant to these hearings will be flagged. But be assured that all cases sent to us will be forwarded to Issa’s office together in one package.


Those who want their cases to be reviewed before going to Congressman Issa, please send to my personal email, sandredavis@bellouth.net, or Sandy Davis at P.O Box 198, Henderson, Tn, 38340.


Please try to have bullet points in the mail by January 10th that you will be sending directly to Congressman Issa, and those sent to me for review, by January 1st.


MERRY MERRY CHRISTMAS FOLKS!!!!


Sandy Davis

Kay Kubicki


Please include in your summary if you felt threatened,forced,or coerced into signing anything like a Non-Disclosure agreement, retirement papers, resignation papers, settlement agreements, etc. We are starting to see a real pattern in this area. Also, state whether or not you were under medical care for mental condition like depression when any of the above was signed by you.

#12 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 09:23 PM

DEADLINE for submission of case summaries!!!!!

ATTENTION.....It appears as if Congress is going to hold hearings specific to ATF waste, fraud, and abuse, as well as prohibited personnel actions. These hearings are tentatively to be held in February. I applaud this new development as it is the only way for Congress and the American public to understand how the climate at ATF was such that Fast and Furious could have ever occurred in the first place.

Please contact anyone you may know of who has been terminated and/or had a harsh personnel action taken against them whether they are ATF employees in Law Enforcement or Industry ops or Clerical Staff. Particularly those that have occurred on Eric Holder’s watch. Please do not assume that someone’s case has no merit because that is what you heard. ATF always puts out the word that these cases have no merit. Isn’t that right Eleanor?

Here’s what we are looking for:

A brief 8-10 bullet point synopsis on the main issues in your case. Please do not send any other documentation at this point, just be prepared to back up your points with the documentation at the appropriate time. Please make your points as short and concise as possible.

We are asking for two separate summaries here; prohibited personnel actions as well as examples of misconduct by ATF’s Chief Counsel’s Office. If you have both, please send them labeled as such.

You can either send your summary to Issa’s office directly,mail, or fax # here:

2157 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON, DC 20515

PHONE: (202) 225-5074 | FAX: (202) 225-3974

Or you can use this link at the House Oversight Committee. Click the link and go to the whistle blower link at the top of the page and fill out the message form..House Oversight Whistle blower form
(Attention Ashok Pinto) or send it to me. The summaries sent to me will be reviewed by Kay Kubicki and those that are the most significant to these hearings will be flagged. But be assured that all cases sent to us will be forwarded to Issa’s office together in one package.

Those who want their cases to be reviewed before going to Congressman Issa, please send to my personal email, sandredavis@bellouth.net, or Sandy Davis at P.O Box 198, Henderson, Tn, 38340.

Please try to have bullet points in the mail by January 10th that you will be sending directly to Congressman Issa, and those sent to me for review, by January 1st.

MERRY MERRY CHRISTMAS FOLKS!!!!

Sandy Davis & Kay Kubicki

#13 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:24 PM

Any ATF employee who has ended up in litigation with ATF and has experienced illegal and/or unethical behavior by the Chief Counsel’s Office please send me a private message explaining the details. We are looking to present members of congress with a clear picture of just what these attorneys have been up to. Here are some examples:

  • Not serving motions on employee
  • Talking to judge ex parte
  • Not providing responses to discovery
  • Coercing/threatening employees
  • Promising settlements during discovery and then reneging
We are also interested in showing how the EEOC has been going along with the CCO in this unethical behavior, so if you have examples of this, please include in your message.

Note: please send to my private email address sandraedavis@bellsouth.net or to my CleanUp inbox. Do not post. No sense in giving those people a heads up.




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