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#1 1811sa

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:36 PM

Petepark that guy is so easy to tell is a mole for head quarters. How could you not know that!

#2 PetePark1811

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:30 PM

Jamie,
It takes a special kind of person to be offended or call someone a "mole" when asked to support their accusations. You are right up there with inmates who think they are jail house lawyers. "He didn't tell me he was a cop when I asked him, so nothing can be used against me." If you don't get the point some of us are trying to make, then you need to go away. Keep with the facts. I guess it is sort of like Wiki-leaks. It's find to make wild accusations, UNTIL it happens to you. I am only asking people to use some discretion and stick with actual facts. How would you like people to falsely accuse you of random crimes. Because of these wild accusations, the entire site loses credibility. Keep it clean and keep it honest. Why would that upset you so?

Unless you are a space alien here to overthrow mankind! I finally figured you out.

Top Cat,

Please don't allow ignorant people to discourage you.

Unfortunately, there are some "Moles" who come on this site to create problems just so you can fight or argue with them. Just so they can have this site full of threads arguing with them, in order to point out to other people how "corrupt" the site is.

They are uniquely disguised as people who want information, attackers, and quick be-frienders.

I'm glad you mentioned the example about the SAC. It was well mentioned and well noted. :)





#3 Jaime3

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:23 PM

Top Cat,

Please don't allow ignorant people to discourage you.

Unfortunately, there are some "Moles" who come on this site to create problems just so you can fight or argue with them. Just so they can have this site full of threads arguing with them, in order to point out to other people how "corrupt" the site is.

They are uniquely disguised as people who want information, attackers, and quick be-frienders.

I'm glad you mentioned the example about the SAC. It was well mentioned and well noted. :)



Patriot,

I couldn't agree with you more. I worked in Internal Affiars when this site first started and some of our less than forward thinking managers(most of whom are since retired) hated the idea, but what they didnt understand was that SOME of what was being posted were voices about matters that should have been paid closer attention to. Hello!! (F&F)

What really disturbs any number of us, particualry the "Retired and Still Proud" are the number of RUMOR POSTS and inaccurate assessments of situations and peoples situations actually hurt the organization. ATF has always been viewed as the w_ _ _ _ _ trailor trash of federal law enforcement by some who would love to see us torn apart. I would have to think that as small an organization as ATF is, any number of us could call a friend or the person and ask them "hey what happened when Joe Baker received 30 days off for drinking and driving". The truth of the matter could probably help us all. The fact of the matter is that many of us are not really concerned about the truth.

For instance, I asked a simple question about a SAC office and observe what happend. A few posters actually talked abut the issue. Everyone else attacked me. After thousands of posts on Cleanup ATF about hundreds of issues and some inaccurate but mostly inaccurate postings about hundreds of people, I guess CERTAIN SACS cant even be questioned. THIS is the reason why we are in this mess. Nobody attacked the Miami SAC, I asked a question about the issue. Based on the responses, just imagine what might have happened if am employee had asked the SAC or any employee of the Miami leadership about this issue?

The very first thing that happned was someone came to the SACs defense by talking about all of the wonderful things that he does. What you learn in Internal Affairs is that every employee in this organization does great things, but if you are asked if you went to a strip club, you have to say yes or no and then is not the time to talk about your volunteer work with The Boys Clubs of America.

















#4 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:20 AM

Oh my God, yes! What a wonderful thread!! Can we all post some really specific examples of waste and fraud and hurry please. Post them as fast as possible. Please, please, please do NOT try to substantiate or verify anything. Just throw up some stuff.

I'll start:

Sandy is making GS 1811 series salary!!!! Congressman, please put an end to this!

Ooops. Another need for edit. Sandy is not an ATF employee. She does not work for ATF. She has no idea whatsoever what ATF is or what it is doing or who works for ATF. She left 15 years ago after being fired 3 times. 3rd time's a charm, I guess.


FOG - no need to edit. I am indeed receiving my salary and have been for 16 years. The poor taxpayer is paying me NOT to work. The poor taxpayer is paying many of us NOT to work. And yes, please Congressmen put an end to this! And yes, I was fired three times but hired four. I think that is much more telling about ATF than it is about me.

btw - the specific examples of waste, fraud, and abuse are substantiated and are going to congress. Many are already there.

#5 TopCat

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:48 AM


Patriot,

I couldn't agree with you more. I worked in Internal Affiars when this site first started and some of our less than forward thinking managers(most of whom are since retired) hated the idea, but what they didnt understand was that SOME of what was being posted were voices about matters that should have been paid closer attention to. Hello!! (F&F)

What really disturbs any number of us, particualry the "Retired and Still Proud" are the number of RUMOR POSTS and inaccurate assessments of situations and peoples situations actually hurt the organization. ATF has always been viewed as the w_ _ _ _ _ trailor trash of federal law enforcement by some who would love to see us torn apart. I would have to think that as small an organization as ATF is, any number of us could call a friend or the person and ask them "hey what happened when Joe Baker received 30 days off for drinking and driving". The truth of the matter could probably help us all. The fact of the matter is that many of us are not really concerned about the truth.

For instance, I asked a simple question about a SAC office and observe what happend. A few posters actually talked abut the issue. Everyone else attacked me. After thousands of posts on Cleanup ATF about hundreds of issues and some inaccurate but mostly inaccurate postings about hundreds of people, I guess CERTAIN SACS cant even be questioned. THIS is the reason why we are in this mess. Nobody attacked the Miami SAC, I asked a question about the issue. Based on the responses, just imagine what might have happened if am employee had asked the SAC or any employee of the Miami leadership about this issue?

The very first thing that happned was someone came to the SACs defense by talking about all of the wonderful things that he does. What you learn in Internal Affairs is that every employee in this organization does great things, but if you are asked if you went to a strip club, you have to say yes or no and then is not the time to talk about your volunteer work with The Boys Clubs of America.
















#6 Patriot

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 10:31 AM

This site has taught me a lot. I have written some posts and really thought I had it figured out, proposed some ideas that I thought were briliant. Then someone would respond with an opposing or alternative viewpoint and suddenly I would think, how could I have been so short sighted. I think the dialog here is so important as long as it is respectful and contructive. There is a flicker of hope that some change is about to occur. Keep up the efforts everyone.

#7 Zorro

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:56 PM

I have to agree w/Jaime3 - if the private potty did not cost the taxpayers any more then great. If it did, that's the type of activity that needs to be curtailed. Government employees are not entitled to private bathrooms, health clubs, commuter cars, or any of the other amenities many of us have gotten accustomed to as the country spirals into debt.
The views and opinions expressed by the author are just that. They are not the official opinion of anyone anywhere in any capacity.

#8 BeenThereDoneThat

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:43 PM

Wow, Winkwink, I feel a lot of hostility in your post. Maybe you were having a bad day.


About ten years ago, I got the following message on a card in one of my statement of earnings and leave:

The paramount goal of our efforts should be to create a work culture of performance, challenge, meaning, and dignity. Employees should be able to ask themselves the following three questions:
Am I treated with dignity and respect at work by everyone I encounter?
Do I have the tools I need to do my job so that the work I do gives meaning to my life?
And did anyone notice?



Wouldn't it be great if you/I could honestly answer all of the questions with "Yes"?

Waste, fraud and abuse has continued unchecked for many years. CUATF is an excellent avenue to expose and discuss any situation that might bring positive change.

#9 Jaime3

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:16 PM

You're very welcome. And Thank You.

Thank you Jaime. Well said.



#10 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:47 PM

Wink Wink,


You're words are demeaning and unnecessary. The topic is called waste, fraud, and abuse.


The Miami SAC can be the best SAC in your (and others) book. However, the example Top Cat gave is an example of Fraud, Waste, and Abuse.

What makes that SAC so special, he can't use the common restrooms like everyone else? Did he get the bathroom due to a medical condition or did he feel he just wanted one because someone else had one?

These are important questions to ask yourself before accusing someone of jealousy.


Like it or not, Top Cat gave an example of Waste. If the money was supposed to fund something else, it's called Fraud.



It's that kind of segregation of power, that begins with the mind, that got ATF in this jam. (Believe it or not)


Segregation of Power means, when someone GETS PAID to do their job, feel they're entitled to more than what their subordinates deserve. This undermines the term "Fair and Equal Treatment."

I'm sure there are many employees who feel they go above and beyond to do there jobs, but get no perks.

Just a thought, before you demean someone who's brainstorming about the topic on hand, please understand that even Good People can be wasteful.

We are on this website to promote reform within ATF, not to demoralize each other.

It's ok to be quick witted, strong, and even tough. However, educating yourself and coming across (with words) tactfully helps all our voices to be heard.

Because when we begin demeaning each other, they win.



Respectfully,

-Jaime


Thank you Jaime. Well said.

#11 Jaime3

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:27 PM

Wink Wink,


You're words are demeaning and unnecessary. The topic is called waste, fraud, and abuse.


The Miami SAC can be the best SAC in your (and others) book. However, the example Top Cat gave is an example of Fraud, Waste, and Abuse.

What makes that SAC so special, he can't use the common restrooms like everyone else? Did he get the bathroom due to a medical condition or did he feel he just wanted one because someone else had one?

These are important questions to ask yourself before accusing someone of jealousy.


Like it or not, Top Cat gave an example of Waste. If the money was supposed to fund something else, it's called Fraud.



It's that kind of segregation of power, that begins with the mind, that got ATF in this jam. (Believe it or not)


Segregation of Power means, when someone GETS PAID to do their job, feel they're entitled to more than what their subordinates deserve. This undermines the term "Fair and Equal Treatment."

I'm sure there are many employees who feel they go above and beyond to do there jobs, but get no perks.

Just a thought, before you demean someone who's brainstorming about the topic on hand, please understand that even Good People can be wasteful.

We are on this website to promote reform within ATF, not to demoralize each other.

It's ok to be quick witted, strong, and even tough. However, educating yourself and coming across (with words) tactfully helps all our voices to be heard.

Because when we begin demeaning each other, they win.



Respectfully,

-Jaime

Hey there Top Cat, or are you known as little pussy cat? Wow how many days did it take you to get up the courage to reveal your big hot news? Oh my little furry one, before you go around shooting off your big whiskers you might want to do a little "investigating". But then again maybe investigating isn't your bowl of milk and are one of those employees who stands around with a cup of coffee in their hand telling everyone how busy they are. Still milking the same case for the past 5 years are you? I really dislike people who shoot from the hip without a gun in their holster. Seriously do you even know the SAC of Miami? Did you even do a little due dilligence on your part before you go and make a fool of yourself in front of countless people. And then you throw in some cute little meows like friends with ex ADFO / Deputy. Let me tell you something little tattletale, the SAC of Miami doesn't need to be friends with anybody. He is a man of integrity, loyalty, committment, and supports his people in every situation good or bad. He is a stand up guy who doesn't take any lip when you screw up, rewards you when you earn it and doles out proper punishment to those deserving. So little whiskers, you might think you enlightened us all on some new "CRAP" about a toilet, but you are seriously misguided. But now little pussy cat, I have a big serious question for you. How long did you CRY when your front office told you that you can't get a new conference table? Poor thing you probably bitched about that until no one could stand to be around you. But then again if you were out working those things wouldn't matter so much. FYI - every office gets a budget for office furniture, why hasn't your SAC Office used any of it in the past 20 years to replace that worn out old conference table ?? Maybe that's the battle you should have taken on. I really dislike people who start and repeat rumors. Not only is it a waste of time, it's low class my little furry friend. My suggestion to you is to 1. Get back to work and earn your ATF salary and 2. Take some grammar courses (they are "free" online little whiskers), because you do not have command of the English language. Or was that to throw us off.... Aint right Top Cat, aint right.



#12 winkwink

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:12 AM

Hey there Top Cat, or are you known as little pussy cat? Wow how many days did it take you to get up the courage to reveal your big hot news? Oh my little furry one, before you go around shooting off your big whiskers you might want to do a little "investigating". But then again maybe investigating isn't your bowl of milk and are one of those employees who stands around with a cup of coffee in their hand telling everyone how busy they are. Still milking the same case for the past 5 years are you? I really dislike people who shoot from the hip without a gun in their holster. Seriously do you even know the SAC of Miami? Did you even do a little due dilligence on your part before you go and make a fool of yourself in front of countless people. And then you throw in some cute little meows like friends with ex ADFO / Deputy. Let me tell you something little tattletale, the SAC of Miami doesn't need to be friends with anybody. He is a man of integrity, loyalty, committment, and supports his people in every situation good or bad. He is a stand up guy who doesn't take any lip when you screw up, rewards you when you earn it and doles out proper punishment to those deserving. So little whiskers, you might think you enlightened us all on some new "CRAP" about a toilet, but you are seriously misguided. But now little pussy cat, I have a big serious question for you. How long did you CRY when your front office told you that you can't get a new conference table? Poor thing you probably bitched about that until no one could stand to be around you. But then again if you were out working those things wouldn't matter so much. FYI - every office gets a budget for office furniture, why hasn't your SAC Office used any of it in the past 20 years to replace that worn out old conference table ?? Maybe that's the battle you should have taken on. I really dislike people who start and repeat rumors. Not only is it a waste of time, it's low class my little furry friend. My suggestion to you is to 1. Get back to work and earn your ATF salary and 2. Take some grammar courses (they are "free" online little whiskers), because you do not have command of the English language. Or was that to throw us off.... Aint right Top Cat, aint right.


Has anyone been to the Miami Field Division and seen the SAC Office. Didn"t Truscott get done in in part for the same sort of thing? Are SAC's supposed to have bathrooms in their offices? How did Miami SAC get away with that?????? I would think that any reasonable inquiry by oh......lets see, the OIG would disclose some serious scamming and lying on that one. Our front office told us that we couldnt even spring for a new conference room table to replace the one that is over twenty years old!!! Rumor is that Miami SAC is tight with ex ADFO and ex Deputy so knowing them, they probably approved. Mr Jones, can you pleeeeeese do something. We are struggling out here and you have SACs spending however they see fit. Aint right Mr Jones, aint right.



#13 Forager

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 07:59 PM

Regarding the SAC in Miami - I've worked in a few divisions and would like to say that I have never seen the dedication of a SAC like the one I've witnessed in Miami the last few years. We have a number of early morning significant takedowns (some aren't even that significant) multiple times throughout the year and not once have I ever NOT seen the SAC out with the troops at 4am, etc. HE has been there time and time and time again, doesn't matter how early, how late etc, he makes himself present and furthermore takes the time to walk around and personally thank everyone for assisting. Never, Never, never have I seen a SAC in other divisions not even once exhibit this kind of behavior. Never even seen a SAC present outside of the division office or maybe a range in other divisions. It says a lot to the regular old street agent. Hell i don't care if he expands his bathroom even more and installs one of those hydraulic TV's like Truscott had. PEACE OUT - and God Speed.

#14 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:07 PM

Sandy, nothing personal but Congressmen,Senators and politicians in general can be some of the biggests culprits when it comes to waste, fraud and abuse. Heck, if I cheated on my taxes I'd be fired. Can't say the same of Treasury Sec. and some Congressmen.

The use it or lose it mentality which permeates ALL of Govt is one problem. At the end of the fiscal year if there is money left in an account you got to use it or fear not getting it next year. That mindset has to change. Don't penalize me next year for finding a way of saving and not using it this year. Maybe I don't need an extra ream of copy paper this year but I might next.


Good point, however congress isn't looking into itself in that respect right now, but they are looking into ATF.

I'm still shocked at the number of SES positions that have been created in the last 15 years or so, especially since it appears as if there are no more agents to supervise. And I'd REALLY like to know how many ATF attorneys have been added during this same time period.

Anyone have any idea?

#15 ISpy

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 01:18 PM

Sandy, nothing personal but Congressmen,Senators and politicians in general can be some of the biggests culprits when it comes to waste, fraud and abuse. Heck, if I cheated on my taxes I'd be fired. Can't say the same of Treasury Sec. and some Congressmen.

The use it or lose it mentality which permeates ALL of Govt is one problem. At the end of the fiscal year if there is money left in an account you got to use it or fear not getting it next year. That mindset has to change. Don't penalize me next year for finding a way of saving and not using it this year. Maybe I don't need an extra ream of copy paper this year but I might next.

As to the SAC's restroom....is this something newly installed? Was it in exsisting space that was taken over by us and it would have been more expensive to tear out then leave? I've actually seen that case before. Just wanting more details.

I hear the LA Division office is state of the art but that won't be happening again from what I've heard. But then you have offices that should be condemned.

I think for YEARS we have been sucking hind tit to everyone when it came to funding, space, cars, equipment. Could we do better in allocating money within Agency? SURE!!! It would just be nice to not be treated as the bastard step child. Heck, FBI screws up and the answer is to give them more people and more money. Must be nice.

#16 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:17 AM

A bathroom, it the just the tip of the iceberg. The waste in this agency is and has been monumetal. We all remember when an online suggestion site was put up. There were any number of good cost cutting suggestions that were posted. None were ever implemented. So was it just put there to make people think they had a voice, at what cost? How about the travel costs incurred by SAC's that goes unchecked. We have expensive teleconference equipment in every field division,but SAC's have to travel to meet. When asked why, the answer is that they cannot control who is in the room when teleconferencing. Speaks to the integrity of the audience. The lack of accountability at that level is astronomical, too bad they do not have to write justifications for expenditures like everyone else. I sense another potentially embarrasing IG report in the future.



This is a wonderful thread! I hope more will jump in with specific examples. Why don't you all play a game of 'lets see who can cite the most examples the quickest'? It would be a great way for the various congressmen and senators to get a feel for where the taxpayer's money is going.

#17 Twin

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:18 AM

A bathroom, it the just the tip of the iceberg. The waste in this agency is and has been monumetal. We all remember when an online suggestion site was put up. There were any number of good cost cutting suggestions that were posted. None were ever implemented. So was it just put there to make people think they had a voice, at what cost? How about the travel costs incurred by SAC's that goes unchecked. We have expensive teleconference equipment in every field division,but SAC's have to travel to meet. When asked why, the answer is that they cannot control who is in the room when teleconferencing. Speaks to the integrity of the audience. The lack of accountability at that level is astronomical, too bad they do not have to write justifications for expenditures like everyone else. I sense another potentially embarrasing IG report in the future.

#18 PetePark1811

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:16 PM

I wonder what is the average mileage on our GOVs?? No new cars for anyone for the past three years. Vehicles falling apart on the road, but by gosh, we got a nice bathroom for the SAC in Miami.

Has anyone been to the Miami Field Division and seen the SAC Office. Didn"t Truscott get done in in part for the same sort of thing? Are SAC's supposed to have bathrooms in their offices? How did Miami SAC get away with that?????? I would think that any reasonable inquiry by oh......lets see, the OIG would disclose some serious scamming and lying on that one. Our front office told us that we couldnt even spring for a new conference room table to replace the one that is over twenty years old!!! Rumor is that Miami SAC is tight with ex ADFO and ex Deputy so knowing them, they probably approved. Mr Jones, can you pleeeeeese do something. We are struggling out here and you have SACs spending however they see fit. Aint right Mr Jones, aint right.



#19 TopCat

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:45 AM

Has anyone been to the Miami Field Division and seen the SAC Office. Didn"t Truscott get done in in part for the same sort of thing? Are SAC's supposed to have bathrooms in their offices? How did Miami SAC get away with that?????? I would think that any reasonable inquiry by oh......lets see, the OIG would disclose some serious scamming and lying on that one. Our front office told us that we couldnt even spring for a new conference room table to replace the one that is over twenty years old!!! Rumor is that Miami SAC is tight with ex ADFO and ex Deputy so knowing them, they probably approved. Mr Jones, can you pleeeeeese do something. We are struggling out here and you have SACs spending however they see fit. Aint right Mr Jones, aint right.




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