Mr. Jones, I would suggest that you review the 1940s classic, ‘The Wizard of Oz’ and study the theatrical effects used at the close of the movie. Your Change Cast #8 would have been much more entertaining had you used smoke and lighting flashes like they did in the movie.
Now on a more serious note, your reference to the “invigorating” of the PRB is a lie. All of the recent disciplinary actions I am aware of were NOT investigated by Julie aka “Katie” Torres. There was absolutely NO investigation and the employees did not even know there was any hint of misconduct on their part until they were called in and handed a proposed suspension. In fact, the adverse actions were taken by their managers. Managers who moved so quickly that they could have been mistaken for flying monkeys. You see Mr. Jones, Mr. U.S. Atty., Mr. Due Process; the management staff in those offices acted as accuser, investigator, judge, and jury. Change? Yes, you have effected change. Change for the worse. And at ATF, who would have even imagined that was possible. Mr. Jones, yours is not change. Yours is just the old style ATF “leadership” on steroids. So now Mr. Jones, it’s time for you to go. Throw your crap in a box and leave so that we can get on to the next batch of rabid bureaucrats we’ll likely be forced to deal with.
Madea’s lesson of the day....for all of you in ATF who said, “give them a chance” and “Tom is a nice guy”, you see, Madea isn’t delusional. Madea is just sadly experienced. This isn’t Madea’s first rodeo. It is time once again to watch the current clowns be replaced with a new batch of clowns. When the new batch comes in, and if you are paying attention, you will be able to tell very quickly if it’s just another back-ally rodeo or real change. While many of you may not be able to quickly recognize a true ATF leader (because most of you have never seen one), you can quickly recognize the clowns. The clowns will always come in talking about all the wonderful change you are about to see. If you are ever a witness to a true leader at ATF, you won’t hear much at all, but you will see the Kelvins in management packing their boxes en masse and being escorted out of the building. Until you see that, don’t get excited. Don’t get your hopes up. Just keep your eyes open, but cover your ears. If you ever see a true leader at ATF, the propaganda will stop. You won’t need your ears. Just your eyes.
ATF Directors Past and Present
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, Jul 01 2012 12:42 PM
18 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:19 AM
Vince - don’t worry about Kay not being on task, remember she’s the one who told you about the excepted service deal in the first place. Except for the time around her stroke, I’ve never known her to be off task when it comes to ATF. I promise you she is more than capable of defending herself, staying on task, and pulling someone’s head out of their ass at the same time. So don’t worry, she’s all over the new order and as soon as she reads it, she’ll give you her thoughts I’m sure.
Lance - please disregard all that conciliatory bullshit from my earlier post to you. As you stated, you bring nothing to the table. If you paid a fraction of the price Kay has paid to do the right thing and had put your real name out there along with your reputation, I bet you would not have taken such a cheap and sleazy shot. While you have “not participated much” and have mainly been “just watching”, Kay has been fighting for you (if you truly are an agent) for 30 years as you sat there passively watching from the safety of the sidelines.
As far as her license, why don’t you ask the hundreds of people who have gotten free legal advice from her over the years if they think she’s more of an attorney or more of an advocate. Actually, she’s quite embarrassed to say she is an atty because of the lack of character of so many in her profession. Law school was merely want she had to do to be more effective in her fight.
BTW - the price she has paid to fight for the agents, even fools like yourself, has taken a physical toll on her just like it does everyone else who has the fortitude to stand up. Do you think anyone is surprised that she had a massive stroke after slugging it out with the federal gov for three decades? But I guess since you’ve just been “watching”, you wouldn’t know the level of stress she CHOOSES to live under to do the right thing. I’m sure you also don’t know that she makes the decision daily to live like a pauper so she can continue the fight. To her the sacrifice is worth it. Now keep in mind that she is painfully aware that her sacrifice also benefits the likes of you and she still makes that choice. And I promise you, if ATF came after you tomorrow and you asked for her help, she wouldn’t hesitate to help you. She’s a much bigger person than I am. I’d pass.
Lance - please disregard all that conciliatory bullshit from my earlier post to you. As you stated, you bring nothing to the table. If you paid a fraction of the price Kay has paid to do the right thing and had put your real name out there along with your reputation, I bet you would not have taken such a cheap and sleazy shot. While you have “not participated much” and have mainly been “just watching”, Kay has been fighting for you (if you truly are an agent) for 30 years as you sat there passively watching from the safety of the sidelines.
As far as her license, why don’t you ask the hundreds of people who have gotten free legal advice from her over the years if they think she’s more of an attorney or more of an advocate. Actually, she’s quite embarrassed to say she is an atty because of the lack of character of so many in her profession. Law school was merely want she had to do to be more effective in her fight.
BTW - the price she has paid to fight for the agents, even fools like yourself, has taken a physical toll on her just like it does everyone else who has the fortitude to stand up. Do you think anyone is surprised that she had a massive stroke after slugging it out with the federal gov for three decades? But I guess since you’ve just been “watching”, you wouldn’t know the level of stress she CHOOSES to live under to do the right thing. I’m sure you also don’t know that she makes the decision daily to live like a pauper so she can continue the fight. To her the sacrifice is worth it. Now keep in mind that she is painfully aware that her sacrifice also benefits the likes of you and she still makes that choice. And I promise you, if ATF came after you tomorrow and you asked for her help, she wouldn’t hesitate to help you. She’s a much bigger person than I am. I’d pass.
#3
GoodWorker
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:35 PM
Keep it civil. The strength of this site is NOT our opinions, its our facts. Stay on task please. Word is the Director and other are exploring making ATF Agents Excepted Service, to be able to quell MSPB rights in the future. Everybody better be paying attention.
If you missed Anderson Cooper 360 tonight (7/11/12), I strongly urge you to go online and watch the interview of Agent Terry's mother and also it was mentioned that Dodson and Forcelli have been place under Thomasson supervision. AC 360 stated there are e-mails from Thomasson that "ATF needs to F--k these guys and get all the dirt possible on them." I hope someone in the DOJ goes after these people who keep retaliating against whistle blowers and B. Todd Jones should stop making the Change Casts messages if he is going to allow this retaliation to continue. What about holding people accountable? Mr. Holder should resign.
#4
VINCENT A CEFALU
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:02 PM
Keep it civil. The strength of this site is NOT our opinions, its our facts. Stay on task please. Word is the Director and other are exploring making ATF Agents Excepted Service, to be able to quell MSPB rights in the future. Everybody better be paying attention.
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#5
Guest_madea_*
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:51 PM
#1 - Lancebone, look at the history of this website and what it has accomplished. What have you accomplished? Oh, that’s right, you’ve already said you bring nothing to the table.
#2 - In 2006 I had the rare experience of a massive stroke which was misdiagnosed by a doctor. It amounted to gross negligence. The hospital was so thrilled that I didn’t sue they tore up the bill. It was a very large bill. I was in a coma for 5 days and was not expected to survive, much less have a full recovery. I find my blessings to be immeasurable.
#3 - While I was walking around misdiagnosed, I was held in contempt by a judge for being unprepared for a trial (being “unprepared” was a euphemism for ‘I could barely figure out how to operate the elevator’). When the Michigan Bar Assoc. read my medical records, they too were amazed I had survived. However, they told me that if you’re held in contempt, having your license pulled is automatic according to the ABA rules. Oh my, what a surprise awaits Eric Holder.
#4 - The reason I do not reapply for my license at this time is quite simple. Even you should be able to follow this. Lance, you cannot fight someone like Eric Holder if you’re scared to lose your license. When this is over, all will be remedied.
#5 - Ask some of the attys like Larry Berger & Co why they won’t even mention F&F. It’s because they know what will happen to their practice if they fight the big boys. You see Lanceboy, it’s a much happier world if you just crawl into the trough with the likes of Eleanor, G. Elaine, Melson, Serres, and all the rest of that slithering tribe. I challenge you to find one attorney willing to step out there and expose F&F (don’t tax yourself too much, you won’t find one). Now you may have been happy with the status quo. I and the other whistleblowers found the situation repugnant. Would you step out there if you had the chance Lance? Oh that’s right, you won’t even post under your real name pansy boy.
I would suggest you watch a movie based on the true story called “A Civil Action” (the book was better but I’m guessing you don’t read). The attorney the movie was about was completely destroyed by the large corporation he decided to fight. This atty had discovered wide spread cancer the corporation was responsible for in a community.
So Lanceboy, your lesson for today is that there are still some of us willing to put everything on the line to fight gross injustice. I choose to call the powerful and the corrupt out. Not an easy road to take. You choose a different path.
Now then, since I have shown you mine, why don’t you show me yours. Throw your name out here and lets take a look at your distinguished career.
#2 - In 2006 I had the rare experience of a massive stroke which was misdiagnosed by a doctor. It amounted to gross negligence. The hospital was so thrilled that I didn’t sue they tore up the bill. It was a very large bill. I was in a coma for 5 days and was not expected to survive, much less have a full recovery. I find my blessings to be immeasurable.
#3 - While I was walking around misdiagnosed, I was held in contempt by a judge for being unprepared for a trial (being “unprepared” was a euphemism for ‘I could barely figure out how to operate the elevator’). When the Michigan Bar Assoc. read my medical records, they too were amazed I had survived. However, they told me that if you’re held in contempt, having your license pulled is automatic according to the ABA rules. Oh my, what a surprise awaits Eric Holder.
#4 - The reason I do not reapply for my license at this time is quite simple. Even you should be able to follow this. Lance, you cannot fight someone like Eric Holder if you’re scared to lose your license. When this is over, all will be remedied.
#5 - Ask some of the attys like Larry Berger & Co why they won’t even mention F&F. It’s because they know what will happen to their practice if they fight the big boys. You see Lanceboy, it’s a much happier world if you just crawl into the trough with the likes of Eleanor, G. Elaine, Melson, Serres, and all the rest of that slithering tribe. I challenge you to find one attorney willing to step out there and expose F&F (don’t tax yourself too much, you won’t find one). Now you may have been happy with the status quo. I and the other whistleblowers found the situation repugnant. Would you step out there if you had the chance Lance? Oh that’s right, you won’t even post under your real name pansy boy.
I would suggest you watch a movie based on the true story called “A Civil Action” (the book was better but I’m guessing you don’t read). The attorney the movie was about was completely destroyed by the large corporation he decided to fight. This atty had discovered wide spread cancer the corporation was responsible for in a community.
So Lanceboy, your lesson for today is that there are still some of us willing to put everything on the line to fight gross injustice. I choose to call the powerful and the corrupt out. Not an easy road to take. You choose a different path.
Now then, since I have shown you mine, why don’t you show me yours. Throw your name out here and lets take a look at your distinguished career.
I thought I was civilized in my words and comment. I am not a fan of Magaw or Truscott. You put a lot of words in my mouth here and tagged me with a lot of opinions that I don't hold.
Madea, just because you say or write something doesn't make everyone who differs in opinion wrong. You created an arguement with my position when it was never stated, at least not in the context you continued it towards.
I simply stated that I thought your lobbying agents to vote on a worst director contest was unneccessary.
You are correct, there have been many terrible directors, they seem to grow consistently worse, and their "leadership" has been devistating. I do remember all the things you mentioned. But, because I voice an opinion that is not in lock step with yours is that reason to mock me? Lanceboy? That is actually what my dad called me as a kid so it doesn't carry the humiliation or degridation you likely intended but, you made your point.
I am not fretting over anything you post. I was simply commenting that this website has been hijacked and lost its focus. I am allowed my own opinion, I think. Is that OK? Should I ask your permission to think something before I do and make sure we match up? Mine was no attack on you. I am not defending Magaw. Really don't care if he shit his pants or not.
I don't need your advise on how to spend my time. That I am capable of all on my own.
I know your background and history. Some of it is magnificent. Other parts not so much. Some grace here would go a long way. I'm not the enemy.
I'll continue the debate if need be but I really did intend to hold my promise to go away. I got a call and was advised that I was under attack so I thought I'd break my promise and come back.
So, in a closeing tit-for-tat, maybe you should spend your time getting your law license back and stop worrying about Lanceboy not being enthusiastic about posting "executives with crap in their pants" stories.
PS: was never more than a POA so don't twist this into some manager hiding as a regular agent conspiracy theory.
See ya all on the flip side.
#6
lancebone1967
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:06 PM
I thought I was civilized in my words and comment. I am not a fan of Magaw or Truscott. You put a lot of words in my mouth here and tagged me with a lot of opinions that I don't hold.
Madea, just because you say or write something doesn't make everyone who differs in opinion wrong. You created an arguement with my position when it was never stated, at least not in the context you continued it towards.
I simply stated that I thought your lobbying agents to vote on a worst director contest was unneccessary.
You are correct, there have been many terrible directors, they seem to grow consistently worse, and their "leadership" has been devistating. I do remember all the things you mentioned. But, because I voice an opinion that is not in lock step with yours is that reason to mock me? Lanceboy? That is actually what my dad called me as a kid so it doesn't carry the humiliation or degridation you likely intended but, you made your point.
I am not fretting over anything you post. I was simply commenting that this website has been hijacked and lost its focus. I am allowed my own opinion, I think. Is that OK? Should I ask your permission to think something before I do and make sure we match up? Mine was no attack on you. I am not defending Magaw. Really don't care if he shit his pants or not.
I don't need your advise on how to spend my time. That I am capable of all on my own.
I know your background and history. Some of it is magnificent. Other parts not so much. Some grace here would go a long way. I'm not the enemy.
I'll continue the debate if need be but I really did intend to hold my promise to go away. I got a call and was advised that I was under attack so I thought I'd break my promise and come back.
So, in a closeing tit-for-tat, maybe you should spend your time getting your law license back and stop worrying about Lanceboy not being enthusiastic about posting "executives with crap in their pants" stories.
PS: was never more than a POA so don't twist this into some manager hiding as a regular agent conspiracy theory.
See ya all on the flip side.
Madea, just because you say or write something doesn't make everyone who differs in opinion wrong. You created an arguement with my position when it was never stated, at least not in the context you continued it towards.
I simply stated that I thought your lobbying agents to vote on a worst director contest was unneccessary.
You are correct, there have been many terrible directors, they seem to grow consistently worse, and their "leadership" has been devistating. I do remember all the things you mentioned. But, because I voice an opinion that is not in lock step with yours is that reason to mock me? Lanceboy? That is actually what my dad called me as a kid so it doesn't carry the humiliation or degridation you likely intended but, you made your point.
I am not fretting over anything you post. I was simply commenting that this website has been hijacked and lost its focus. I am allowed my own opinion, I think. Is that OK? Should I ask your permission to think something before I do and make sure we match up? Mine was no attack on you. I am not defending Magaw. Really don't care if he shit his pants or not.
I don't need your advise on how to spend my time. That I am capable of all on my own.
I know your background and history. Some of it is magnificent. Other parts not so much. Some grace here would go a long way. I'm not the enemy.
I'll continue the debate if need be but I really did intend to hold my promise to go away. I got a call and was advised that I was under attack so I thought I'd break my promise and come back.
So, in a closeing tit-for-tat, maybe you should spend your time getting your law license back and stop worrying about Lanceboy not being enthusiastic about posting "executives with crap in their pants" stories.
PS: was never more than a POA so don't twist this into some manager hiding as a regular agent conspiracy theory.
See ya all on the flip side.
Dear Lanceboy, what productive contributions can you cite from the John Magaw era? If you want to identify the main two Directors responsible for the bloated management you have now, just look at Magaw and Truscott, both of whom were from the Secret Service. Can anybody deny that I.A. turned into rabid dogs when Magaw brought Dick Hankinson to head up that nazi ass group? You see Lanceboy, prior to Magaw, I.A. seldom showed up at an office. Pretty much everything was handled by the managers. Not until the Secret Service came over to “straighten ATF out” did you see such a vicious wave of management. Sorry you didn’t like my reference to your former Director having poop in his pants because he refused to use just any old facility, but it is a true story. Instead of fretting that I have embarrassed Magoo, I think your time would be better spent worrying about the ugly legacy Magoo left in your lap. By the way, that story was relayed to me as a SS agent, who was laughing his ass off, told me that Magaw was headed to ATF. I couldn’t appreciate how true what he told me about Magaw was until he got here. Pooping his pants was the least of that man’s issues. Also, do you remember the esteemed “leadership” of Magaw and Truscott double dipping? Again, the poor taxpayer. I call drawing a salary from one agency while at the same time getting their large pensions from yet another, a serious ethical problem.
Another point to be made regarding our long and pathetic line of Directors is that any enforcement accomplishments were/are a direct result of the agents’ ability to work around the absurd obstacles placed in their way by these clowns. Each one of these Directors has been responsible for making the agents’ job more difficult, more dangerous, and less productive. Simple decisions that could be made by a supervisor evolve into an insane dog and pony show. And why? Because they have all lacked enforcement experience. Does anybody really believe that these Directors would have understood the implications of Waco and Fast and Furious? I think we all know that answer now don’t we? And everyone knows about Waco, but nobody knows about a similar operation that proceeded Waco that went off without a hitch. There was no big scandal, no big cover ups, no congressional hearings, and NO ONE DIED. The case agent didn’t parade himself around like a peacock on an acid trip. He simply did his job. Why was that raid successful? Because that office kept it a law enforcement activity and avoided the Hollywood production that Waco became and that F&F has become. So, if you think management at the lowest level cannot handle the big operations, you are wrong. Upper management is the problem at ATF. It’s always the problem. We can’t seem to get anyone up there who’s not a complete fool. As soon as good investigations move up to HQ for review, everyone knows the destruction of these investigations begins.
#7
Guest_madea_*
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:09 PM
Dear Lanceboy, what productive contributions can you cite from the John Magaw era? If you want to identify the main two Directors responsible for the bloated management you have now, just look at Magaw and Truscott, both of whom were from the Secret Service. Can anybody deny that I.A. turned into rabid dogs when Magaw brought Dick Hankinson to head up that nazi ass group? You see Lanceboy, prior to Magaw, I.A. seldom showed up at an office. Pretty much everything was handled by the managers. Not until the Secret Service came over to “straighten ATF out” did you see such a vicious wave of management. Sorry you didn’t like my reference to your former Director having poop in his pants because he refused to use just any old facility, but it is a true story. Instead of fretting that I have embarrassed Magoo, I think your time would be better spent worrying about the ugly legacy Magoo left in your lap. By the way, that story was relayed to me as a SS agent, who was laughing his ass off, told me that Magaw was headed to ATF. I couldn’t appreciate how true what he told me about Magaw was until he got here. Pooping his pants was the least of that man’s issues. Also, do you remember the esteemed “leadership” of Magaw and Truscott double dipping? Again, the poor taxpayer. I call drawing a salary from one agency while at the same time getting their large pensions from yet another, a serious ethical problem.
Another point to be made regarding our long and pathetic line of Directors is that any enforcement accomplishments were/are a direct result of the agents’ ability to work around the absurd obstacles placed in their way by these clowns. Each one of these Directors has been responsible for making the agents’ job more difficult, more dangerous, and less productive. Simple decisions that could be made by a supervisor evolve into an insane dog and pony show. And why? Because they have all lacked enforcement experience. Does anybody really believe that these Directors would have understood the implications of Waco and Fast and Furious? I think we all know that answer now don’t we? And everyone knows about Waco, but nobody knows about a similar operation that proceeded Waco that went off without a hitch. There was no big scandal, no big cover ups, no congressional hearings, and NO ONE DIED. The case agent didn’t parade himself around like a peacock on an acid trip. He simply did his job. Why was that raid successful? Because that office kept it a law enforcement activity and avoided the Hollywood production that Waco became and that F&F has become. So, if you think management at the lowest level cannot handle the big operations, you are wrong. Upper management is the problem at ATF. It’s always the problem. We can’t seem to get anyone up there who’s not a complete fool. As soon as good investigations move up to HQ for review, everyone knows the destruction of these investigations begins.
Another point to be made regarding our long and pathetic line of Directors is that any enforcement accomplishments were/are a direct result of the agents’ ability to work around the absurd obstacles placed in their way by these clowns. Each one of these Directors has been responsible for making the agents’ job more difficult, more dangerous, and less productive. Simple decisions that could be made by a supervisor evolve into an insane dog and pony show. And why? Because they have all lacked enforcement experience. Does anybody really believe that these Directors would have understood the implications of Waco and Fast and Furious? I think we all know that answer now don’t we? And everyone knows about Waco, but nobody knows about a similar operation that proceeded Waco that went off without a hitch. There was no big scandal, no big cover ups, no congressional hearings, and NO ONE DIED. The case agent didn’t parade himself around like a peacock on an acid trip. He simply did his job. Why was that raid successful? Because that office kept it a law enforcement activity and avoided the Hollywood production that Waco became and that F&F has become. So, if you think management at the lowest level cannot handle the big operations, you are wrong. Upper management is the problem at ATF. It’s always the problem. We can’t seem to get anyone up there who’s not a complete fool. As soon as good investigations move up to HQ for review, everyone knows the destruction of these investigations begins.
I have not been participating much here, watching mostly. This website has always been a great source for first hand information. Not anymore. This post is why and why I will no longer visit this site. I know I will not be missed and I never brought much too the table other than one agents opinion anyway.
Is this what CleanUpATF has become? A forum to hold contests? This is embarassing to every person who participates or reads here. What does a post like this do to uphold the mission of the site? How does this restore accountablity to and integrity? What does this have to do with anything productive in any way, shape or form?
Since when do ATF agents attack someone just for mere sake of embarrassing them? When I read this post first I was angry and now just sad. This website has been allowed to tank and become so unfocused that it is no longer relevant. This post is a great example.
I am not a fan of Jones and I think the previous points made here about his security crew are valid and worth discussion. Then it gets hijacked by nonscense and defeats the entire purpose.
Good bye and good luck to everyone who is working to make ATF a better place.
#8
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:56 AM
Ok, so that’s one vote for Dickenson, one for Mcgaw, and one for Truscott. My nomination is Higgins, mostly because he was the one I personally had to deal with so I am more familiar with his stupidity. My favorite memory of Higgins was watching him run down the hall being chased my the late Mike Wallace and the “60 Minutes” camera crew. If he had only been wearing Magaw’s cape, I think he would be the hands down winner in this race.
Not only was Higgins at the helm during Waco, he promoted Dan Hartnet to DD when he knew Danny Boy had already been found by an Administrative Judge to be guilty of perjury, reprisal, and conspiracy to cover up for one ATF’s more infamous SACs (I can see a SAC contest coming). Was it any surprise that after Waco congress saw Hartnet in the very same way that administrative law judge did? Remember the casualties from Waco (and as JJ has said, there were five, not four). The lawsuits that had to be settled after Higgins and Hartnet got the boot cost the taxpayers an enormous amount of money. I know this as I was the beneficiary of one of these settlements and I was just one of MANY. As Patriot has already pointed out, there are a lot of similarities between these Directors and until congress steps in and deals with the system in place that keeps dragging these rejects up, the taxpayer will continue to pay through the nose, employees will continue to have their lives destroyed, and sadly I’m betting more people will die.
Not only was Higgins at the helm during Waco, he promoted Dan Hartnet to DD when he knew Danny Boy had already been found by an Administrative Judge to be guilty of perjury, reprisal, and conspiracy to cover up for one ATF’s more infamous SACs (I can see a SAC contest coming). Was it any surprise that after Waco congress saw Hartnet in the very same way that administrative law judge did? Remember the casualties from Waco (and as JJ has said, there were five, not four). The lawsuits that had to be settled after Higgins and Hartnet got the boot cost the taxpayers an enormous amount of money. I know this as I was the beneficiary of one of these settlements and I was just one of MANY. As Patriot has already pointed out, there are a lot of similarities between these Directors and until congress steps in and deals with the system in place that keeps dragging these rejects up, the taxpayer will continue to pay through the nose, employees will continue to have their lives destroyed, and sadly I’m betting more people will die.
There are times when you must look back to see how we arrived at where we are. I know that Mr. Jones disagrees with that statement, clearly he is wrong. That said, looking back at the list of past Directors and you may see a common theme. Men who were anything but committed leaders who put the organization, people and mission ahead of their own personal agendas. They were: self involved(Magaw,Truscott),narcisistic(Magaw, Truscott again),political puppets(Sullivan,Jones)inept(G.R.,Buckles,Melson),placeholder(Carter),misguided(Domenech,Higgins). So with this comes some comic relief, some sadness and also some enlightenment as to how we got here. As for my nomimation, Truscott collected a paycheck and squandered taxpayer funds, while accomplishing absolutly nothing. Read the IG report on him for additonal comic relief. I love that he had the seats in his Suburban moved to look like the Secretary of States only to then think it was unsafe and move them back. For anyone who has had to beg to get two bald tires replaced that hits home. He should have been indicted for larcency from the public. I want to add a message to Jones' security detail, take care of him, he is angling to be the next AG when Holder takes one for the boss before the election. It will be good riddance for us and God help the rest of Federal law enforcement.
#9
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:34 AM
There are times when you must look back to see how we arrived at where we are. I know that Mr. Jones disagrees with that statement, clearly he is wrong. That said, looking back at the list of past Directors and you may see a common theme. Men who were anything but committed leaders who put the organization, people and mission ahead of their own personal agendas. They were: self involved(Magaw,Truscott),narcisistic(Magaw, Truscott again),political puppets(Sullivan,Jones)inept(G.R.,Buckles,Melson),placeholder(Carter),misguided(Domenech,Higgins). So with this comes some comic relief, some sadness and also some enlightenment as to how we got here. As for my nomimation, Truscott collected a paycheck and squandered taxpayer funds, while accomplishing absolutly nothing. Read the IG report on him for additonal comic relief. I love that he had the seats in his Suburban moved to look like the Secretary of States only to then think it was unsafe and move them back. For anyone who has had to beg to get two bald tires replaced that hits home. He should have been indicted for larcency from the public. I want to add a message to Jones' security detail, take care of him, he is angling to be the next AG when Holder takes one for the boss before the election. It will be good riddance for us and God help the rest of Federal law enforcement.
#10
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:56 AM
Lancebone, I can promise you, you would be missed and you do bring something to the table that is very important, minimally you are obviously paying attention and you obviously care. God knows this agency needs all of this it can get. Most are oblivious to the issues and don’t care until something happens to them personally. I understand your frustration in thinking that someone is making a mockery of the seriousness of the problems within ATF, but the two people having this “serious disagreement” are Kay Kubicki and Jim Jorgenson of NAFA. No two have done more to fight the corruption and incompetence in ATF than these two forces and between them they have 60 years of being in the trenches. And speaking as someone who was blissfully ignorant and unaware until I was slammed into a brick wall that I didn’t even know existed, I know what it’s like to have ‘the ignorant’ knocked out of you only to look up and see the Kays and JJs offering to help.
Writing off CleanUp because these two old vets are getting some comic relief is akin to a soldier folding up his tent and going home because he sees a group of his fellow soldiers playing cards and laughing between battles. Please don’t abandon the good fight simply because you found something someone said offensive. I’m sure Kay and JJ would be the first to tell you that it will take everyone possible working together to make a dent in this mess.
Additionally, there actually is a point to be made here regarding ATF’s notoriously corrupt and clueless Directors in spite of the somewhat crass humor. It’s no surprise that ATF has become an agency that the agents are embarrassed to admit they work for when you take a look at it’s “leaders” throughout the years. When was the last time ATF had effective leadership? Hell, when was the last time ATF had a leader who wasn’t a complete joke and who didn't leave the agency in an even bigger mess than they found it? And these “leaders” do much more than just embarrass their people, they try to destroy them and their families simply because they dare to tell the truth.
Kay and JJ are certainly not Mr. and Mrs. Congeniality (affectionately laughing here), or always politically correct, or even sociably acceptable at times, but I promise when ATF comes after you, you won’t be looking for someone with a bubbly disposition, you’ll want someone who knows how to fight this monster and is willing to do it. No two are more serious about cleaning up this agency than Kay and JJ, and no two have sacrificed more to do it. They are two of the best things that ever happened to the hard working employees of ATF. They have survived the fight when few others have. I’d bet their humor is one of the reasons why. While the rest of us have come and gone, been oblivious to the corruption, or just been too damn lazy to get involved, these two have never wavered. And believe me when I tell you they do a hard and thankless job. When they make some headway in this war someone inevitably rushes in to take the credit and when something goes wrong, they always get the blame. Nonetheless they keep right on slugging it out with the monsters who have created this nightmare, year after year, decade after decade.
I sincerely hope you will reconsider your participation on CleanUp. Things are not always as they appear at first glance.
By the way, if you'll go back and read Madea's posts and check out NAFA's The Agent, you'll see these two are constantly giving information, guidance, and support to those who so desperately need it.
Writing off CleanUp because these two old vets are getting some comic relief is akin to a soldier folding up his tent and going home because he sees a group of his fellow soldiers playing cards and laughing between battles. Please don’t abandon the good fight simply because you found something someone said offensive. I’m sure Kay and JJ would be the first to tell you that it will take everyone possible working together to make a dent in this mess.
Additionally, there actually is a point to be made here regarding ATF’s notoriously corrupt and clueless Directors in spite of the somewhat crass humor. It’s no surprise that ATF has become an agency that the agents are embarrassed to admit they work for when you take a look at it’s “leaders” throughout the years. When was the last time ATF had effective leadership? Hell, when was the last time ATF had a leader who wasn’t a complete joke and who didn't leave the agency in an even bigger mess than they found it? And these “leaders” do much more than just embarrass their people, they try to destroy them and their families simply because they dare to tell the truth.
Kay and JJ are certainly not Mr. and Mrs. Congeniality (affectionately laughing here), or always politically correct, or even sociably acceptable at times, but I promise when ATF comes after you, you won’t be looking for someone with a bubbly disposition, you’ll want someone who knows how to fight this monster and is willing to do it. No two are more serious about cleaning up this agency than Kay and JJ, and no two have sacrificed more to do it. They are two of the best things that ever happened to the hard working employees of ATF. They have survived the fight when few others have. I’d bet their humor is one of the reasons why. While the rest of us have come and gone, been oblivious to the corruption, or just been too damn lazy to get involved, these two have never wavered. And believe me when I tell you they do a hard and thankless job. When they make some headway in this war someone inevitably rushes in to take the credit and when something goes wrong, they always get the blame. Nonetheless they keep right on slugging it out with the monsters who have created this nightmare, year after year, decade after decade.
I sincerely hope you will reconsider your participation on CleanUp. Things are not always as they appear at first glance.
By the way, if you'll go back and read Madea's posts and check out NAFA's The Agent, you'll see these two are constantly giving information, guidance, and support to those who so desperately need it.
I have not been participating much here, watching mostly. This website has always been a great source for first hand information. Not anymore. This post is why and why I will no longer visit this site. I know I will not be missed and I never brought much too the table other than one agents opinion anyway.
Is this what CleanUpATF has become? A forum to hold contests? This is embarassing to every person who participates or reads here. What does a post like this do to uphold the mission of the site? How does this restore accountablity to and integrity? What does this have to do with anything productive in any way, shape or form?
Since when do ATF agents attack someone just for mere sake of embarrassing them? When I read this post first I was angry and now just sad. This website has been allowed to tank and become so unfocused that it is no longer relevant. This post is a great example.
I am not a fan of Jones and I think the previous points made here about his security crew are valid and worth discussion. Then it gets hijacked by nonscense and defeats the entire purpose.
Good bye and good luck to everyone who is working to make ATF a better place.
#11
lancebone1967
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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:03 AM
I have not been participating much here, watching mostly. This website has always been a great source for first hand information. Not anymore. This post is why and why I will no longer visit this site. I know I will not be missed and I never brought much too the table other than one agents opinion anyway.
Is this what CleanUpATF has become? A forum to hold contests? This is embarassing to every person who participates or reads here. What does a post like this do to uphold the mission of the site? How does this restore accountablity to and integrity? What does this have to do with anything productive in any way, shape or form?
Since when do ATF agents attack someone just for mere sake of embarrassing them? When I read this post first I was angry and now just sad. This website has been allowed to tank and become so unfocused that it is no longer relevant. This post is a great example.
I am not a fan of Jones and I think the previous points made here about his security crew are valid and worth discussion. Then it gets hijacked by nonscense and defeats the entire purpose.
Good bye and good luck to everyone who is working to make ATF a better place.
Is this what CleanUpATF has become? A forum to hold contests? This is embarassing to every person who participates or reads here. What does a post like this do to uphold the mission of the site? How does this restore accountablity to and integrity? What does this have to do with anything productive in any way, shape or form?
Since when do ATF agents attack someone just for mere sake of embarrassing them? When I read this post first I was angry and now just sad. This website has been allowed to tank and become so unfocused that it is no longer relevant. This post is a great example.
I am not a fan of Jones and I think the previous points made here about his security crew are valid and worth discussion. Then it gets hijacked by nonscense and defeats the entire purpose.
Good bye and good luck to everyone who is working to make ATF a better place.
Attention agents - we have a serious disagreement brewing regarding which ATF Director was the dumbest. Madea has stated it was John Magaw. She bases this on the fact that he wore a cape to work. Yes, a cape, not a coat, a cape. He was also a germaphobe who pooped in his pants according to one SS agent who was his driver. An esteemed ATF agent who has been around for a very long time (he’s quite old now) and has spent that time in the trenches, thinks the dumbest director was G.R. ‘call me Bob’ Dickenson.
Anyone can step up and nominate their choice for the Dumbest Director Award, just make your case for why.
#12
Guest_madea_*
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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:48 AM
Attention agents - we have a serious disagreement brewing regarding which ATF Director was the dumbest. Madea has stated it was John Magaw. She bases this on the fact that he wore a cape to work. Yes, a cape, not a coat, a cape. He was also a germaphobe who pooped in his pants according to one SS agent who was his driver. An esteemed ATF agent who has been around for a very long time (he’s quite old now) and has spent that time in the trenches, thinks the dumbest director was G.R. ‘call me Bob’ Dickenson.
Anyone can step up and nominate their choice for the Dumbest Director Award, just make your case for why.
Anyone can step up and nominate their choice for the Dumbest Director Award, just make your case for why.
#13
Guest_leaderofthetards_*
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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:22 AM
For those outside of ATF, believe it or not there are actually agents employed by ATF that have been tasked to investigate really bad people. As a result of their investigations of those really bad people they have placed themselves and their families in harm’s way. ATF has actually conducted investigations and determined that those agents and their families were in danger as a result of the performance of their duties and made recommendations as to the security measures to be taken to reduce the threat levels. Many, many times ATF SAC’s and above have ignored those recommended security measures thereby leaving those agents and their families in harm’s way. I know it is hard to believe. But take solace in the fact that ATF provides a security detail to their own part time Director/part time U.S. Attorney before receiving any information that any bad guys even care who he is. Perhaps some Senators and Congressmen should take note of this and ask why they are not afforded their own personal security teams. Surely there are many, many more people that know who their elected representatives are than know who the latest is in a long line of temporary ATF Director’s. I know the current temporary Director says not to look at the past but let’s do that. When was the last attempted/actual assault on the Director of any U.S. Federal law enforcement agency? When was the last attempted/actual assault on an employee of a U.S. Federal law enforcement agency? When was the last attempted/actual assault on a U.S. representative to the House or Senate? If a position with a past safety record such as that of the temporary Director of ATF has to have a security team, who protects those that actually have a proven history of attempted/actual assault? And why does ATF ignore credible threats against their agents? Do they think ATF agents are super hero’s not requiring any assistance, or is it part of a larger issue of non-concern when it comes to murder and mayhem of anyone not within the upper Untouchable ranks of ATF?
I think I can answer your last question Shadow. They don't see the agents as heros, they simply don't GIVE A SHIT. They don't give a shit about the agents, the agents' families, the taxpaying public, or any silly mission. And oh my, but don't they get paid big money while not giving a shit.
#14
The Shadow
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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:08 AM
Excellent post FUBAR, however I would like to point out to you that Mr. Jones is not the most arrogant director this agency has had, nor is he the biggest fool. That distinction lays with John Magaw. But can you see the similarity? Mcgaw showed up after Waco in his magic cape and now B Toad shows up after F&F. Let’s at least give B Toad kudos for not requiring his own elevator. Magaw and his entourage did. B Toad is just the most recent arrogant fool, not the biggest.
For those outside of ATF, believe it or not there are actually agents employed by ATF that have been tasked to investigate really bad people. As a result of their investigations of those really bad people they have placed themselves and their families in harm’s way. ATF has actually conducted investigations and determined that those agents and their families were in danger as a result of the performance of their duties and made recommendations as to the security measures to be taken to reduce the threat levels. Many, many times ATF SAC’s and above have ignored those recommended security measures thereby leaving those agents and their families in harm’s way. I know it is hard to believe. But take solace in the fact that ATF provides a security detail to their own part time Director/part time U.S. Attorney before receiving any information that any bad guys even care who he is. Perhaps some Senators and Congressmen should take note of this and ask why they are not afforded their own personal security teams. Surely there are many, many more people that know who their elected representatives are than know who the latest is in a long line of temporary ATF Director’s. I know the current temporary Director says not to look at the past but let’s do that. When was the last attempted/actual assault on the Director of any U.S. Federal law enforcement agency? When was the last attempted/actual assault on an employee of a U.S. Federal law enforcement agency? When was the last attempted/actual assault on a U.S. representative to the House or Senate? If a position with a past safety record such as that of the temporary Director of ATF has to have a security team, who protects those that actually have a proven history of attempted/actual assault? And why does ATF ignore credible threats against their agents? Do they think ATF agents are super hero’s not requiring any assistance, or is it part of a larger issue of non-concern when it comes to murder and mayhem of anyone not within the upper Untouchable ranks of ATF?
#15
Guest_madea_*
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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:39 PM
Excellent post FUBAR, however I would like to point out to you that Mr. Jones is not the most arrogant director this agency has had, nor is he the biggest fool. That distinction lays with John Magaw. But can you see the similarity? Mcgaw showed up after Waco in his magic cape and now B Toad shows up after F&F. Let’s at least give B Toad kudos for not requiring his own elevator. Magaw and his entourage did. B Toad is just the most recent arrogant fool, not the biggest.
While we are on the subject of Jones’ security detail, how damn ridiculous is that? I hate to be the one to crash through your little narcissistic fantasy B Todd, but no one on the outside knows who the hell you are. The ones who do know who you are would be on the inside with guns on their hips. It is a testament to the agents’ integrity and character that you are walking around free from assault and able to make such a big old fool of yourself. If I were you, and this is just a suggestion, I would stop trying so hard to flog the integrity and character out of the insiders. You need for them to have it. We all do. Although I’m sure it is a little inconvenient for you that you can’t pick and choose when and with whom the agents have these attributes.
#16
FUBAR
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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:28 PM
While we are on the subject of Jones’ security detail, how damn ridiculous is that? I hate to be the one to crash through your little narcissistic fantasy B Todd, but no one on the outside knows who the hell you are. The ones who do know who you are would be on the inside with guns on their hips. It is a testament to the agents’ integrity and character that you are walking around free from assault and able to make such a big old fool of yourself. If I were you, and this is just a suggestion, I would stop trying so hard to flog the integrity and character out of the insiders. You need for them to have it. We all do. Although I’m sure it is a little inconvenient for you that you can’t pick and choose when and with whom the agents have these attributes.
#17
x1811
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Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:17 PM
[/quote]
I wonder if this is a part of the Administration's grand scheme at extending gun control over federal agents. First disarm DHS 1811s, next go after DOJ, OIG, and other 1811s. When the POTUS was elected, I warned everyone of the Manchurian Candidate. Just sayin!
I wonder if this is a part of the Administration's grand scheme at extending gun control over federal agents. First disarm DHS 1811s, next go after DOJ, OIG, and other 1811s. When the POTUS was elected, I warned everyone of the Manchurian Candidate. Just sayin!
#18
Guest_madea_*
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Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:29 PM
Madea wonders if this is Napolitano’s answer to the recent ICE shooting in L.A. Janet, since your people are shooting one another, shouldn’t your attention have been placed on the managers who created that environment? Did you get this advice after consulting FLEOA and Larry Berger?
Again, I’m asking agents to send in their membership requests to NAFA. Maybe you can organize to prevent the same 'run and hide' directives from coming your way.
Again, I’m asking agents to send in their membership requests to NAFA. Maybe you can organize to prevent the same 'run and hide' directives from coming your way.
In the spirit of Janet Napolitano’s new orders for armed Border Patrol Agents to “run and hide” if they encounter an “active shooter”, I have a suggestion for the security detail of B. Todd Jones. If you encounter an active shooter please run and hide. Please. You wouldn’t want Big Sister unhappy now would you? I wonder if Janet has a security detail? If so, ditto on that ‘run and hide’.
Now, after you have hidden beneath the desk, if the active shooter has the gall to continue to go after whomever you are charged to protect, you are allowed to “throw something” as a “last resort”. My suggestion on this.....throw flowers and teddy bears.
"Run and Hide"???????.......you just cannot make this shit up.
#19
Guest_leaderofthetards_*
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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:42 PM
In the spirit of Janet Napolitano’s new orders for armed Border Patrol Agents to “run and hide” if they encounter an “active shooter”, I have a suggestion for the security detail of B. Todd Jones. If you encounter an active shooter please run and hide. Please. You wouldn’t want Big Sister unhappy now would you? I wonder if Janet has a security detail? If so, ditto on that ‘run and hide’.
Now, after you have hidden beneath the desk, if the active shooter has the gall to continue to go after whomever you are charged to protect, you are allowed to “throw something” as a “last resort”. My suggestion on this.....throw flowers and teddy bears.
"Run and Hide"???????.......you just cannot make this shit up.
Now, after you have hidden beneath the desk, if the active shooter has the gall to continue to go after whomever you are charged to protect, you are allowed to “throw something” as a “last resort”. My suggestion on this.....throw flowers and teddy bears.
"Run and Hide"???????.......you just cannot make this shit up.
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