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#1 Ike

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:51 AM

Ya gotta love it!

 

It wasn't enough to be called “Troll”, “stupid”, “evil”, and the “defendant”, but now I'm a "bully", "lonely" and "needing attention", too!

 

Ya gotta love it!

 

"Who would have known about a case out there with SA Ortiz?"  Answer:  Anybody who reads it.  duh! 

 

Does anyone really think they aren't accountable for what they do?  In this day of massive amounts of information on the internet?

 

"What does posting some part of a testimony have to do with cleaning up ATF?"

 

OK, you asked:  From the CleanUpATF.org home page:

 

"Managers, Counsel, Internal Affairs and staff of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (BATFE or "ATF") have repeatedly given false testimony, concealed substantial waste, fraud and abuse, abused their lawful authority, and waged systematic campaigns of reprisal against their own employees that dare to speak out."

 

Does anyone think that "Managers, Counsel, Internal Affairs and staff" suddenly appear by magic? I think not.  By and large, they come up through the ranks.  And if they "give false testimony, conceal waste, fraud and abuse, abuse their lawful authority and wages systematic campaigns of reprisal" as managers, then they also did that as ordinary employees on their way up - and got promoted.

 

If ATF is going to be cleaned up, then such behavior should be identified and cleaned up throughout the ranks.  As it applies to retired managers, it also applies to other retired employees.  How many managers responsible for "Fast and Furious" have been allowed to retire?  Does retirement give them a pass?  Let's hope not.

 

If ATF is going to be cleaned up, then air the linen and CLEAN IT UP!

 

More food for thought:

 

Does anyone really think Criminal Defense Attorneys won't search rulings for case law and other useful legal information? 

 

Any ATF employee giving false testimony or misrepresenting facts or the law in a criminal case can expect a sharp Criminal Defense Attorney to find it – and use it – both in future criminal cases, and in appeals of older cases.



#2 Fedupwrkr

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:44 PM

Ya gotta love it!  Is this called an ad hominem attack?  I think I just got flamed!

 

I responded to Observer’s request and posted some information I found on a public website.  As a result, I was called a “Troll”, “stupid”, “evil”, and the “defendant”….    Hell, if I were the defendant, I would have posted about misdeeds by another ATF employee in the ruling – by name – but didn’t.

 

I’ve been posting here for years longer than Fedupwrkr.  I try to avoid personal attacks, and I made no personal comment about Ortiz or his credibility because I don’t even know the man.  He may be the most outstanding agent ATF ever had – I wouldn’t know – and I couldn’t care less.

That was a personal attack on his credibility.  Who would've ever known about some case out there with SSA Ortiz?  And, why post it if that wasn't your goal?  This site is called CleanupATF!  What does posting some part of a testimony have to do with cleaning up ATF?  SSA Ortiz is retired.  Just let him be!  You must be lonely and needing attention.  That's what bullies do!



#3 Retired Agent Jay Dobyns

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:32 AM

Ya gotta love it!  Is this called an ad hominem attack?  I think I just got flamed!

 

I responded to Observer’s request and posted some information I found on a public website.  As a result, I was called a “Troll”, “stupid”, “evil”, and the “defendant”….    Hell, if I were the defendant, I would have posted about misdeeds by another ATF employee in the ruling – by name – but didn’t.

 

I’ve been posting here for years longer than Fedupwrkr.  I try to avoid personal attacks, and I made no personal comment about Ortiz or his credibility because I don’t even know the man.  He may be the most outstanding agent ATF ever had – I wouldn’t know – and I couldn’t care less.

haha.  if you want to see sh***y things said about an ATF agent just google my name.  the internet is loaded with insults and unfortunately some of them are pretty accurate!  haha  If you don't laugh you gotta cry and no one cares either way.



#4 Ike

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:32 PM

Ya gotta love it!  Is this called an ad hominem attack?  I think I just got flamed!

 

I responded to Observer’s request and posted some information I found on a public website.  As a result, I was called a “Troll”, “stupid”, “evil”, and the “defendant”….    Hell, if I were the defendant, I would have posted about misdeeds by another ATF employee in the ruling – by name – but didn’t.

 

I’ve been posting here for years longer than Fedupwrkr.  I try to avoid personal attacks, and I made no personal comment about Ortiz or his credibility because I don’t even know the man.  He may be the most outstanding agent ATF ever had – I wouldn’t know – and I couldn’t care less.



#5 Heisenberg

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 04:48 AM

You don't know who he is or was.  Don't listen to this stupid Ike or Observer.  We all know who they are now since they hadn't ever posted but negative stuff like trying to discredit someone who was a hard worker.  When you come on this website to try to discredit someone's credibility (other than some of the RAC's, SAC's, DAD's and Director which have already been mentioned), then you are just pure evil!!!


I never said he wasn't credible. Never even hinted that. My point is that almost every agent has been passed over for something in their career. Getting passed over for a new car, an assignment outside CONUS or advanced training isn't something new to me. It is Tuesday. Any by the way, I do know Frank and he's a decent agent. He is certainly NOT an unethical guy. I know most of the ABQ guys, or rather former ABQ guys. Retirements gutted that place too.

#6 Retired Agent Jay Dobyns

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:05 PM

Vince, since you are an Administrator for CUATF, you may remove my account.  I will be making no further posts.

 

Good luck to Jay, Jamie3, Fedupwrkr, Iceman, you, and all of the many, many others who are trying to clean up what was once a fine and proud organization.

Thank you.  I anticipate the ruling on my case to be delivered this summer.



#7 Fedupwrkr

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:54 PM

I don't understand where this thread is- or ever was- going, but I don't particularly care for people who whine over things like being passed over for a new car, an assignment, or training. Most of us have been passed over for things in our careers, for one reason or another. I find the people who complain about it are usually not the working case agents, but rather the crybabies. Workers get back in the game and wait for other opportunities thag they may- or may not get. Those who feel entitled are part of what is destroying our agency. I've never had a new car, I've been passed over for training and I know that those OCONUS spots are for GS14 and GS15s. Who cares? I don't even care. All we are ENTITLED to is a paycheck.

You don't know who he is or was.  Don't listen to this stupid Ike or Observer.  We all know who they are now since they hadn't ever posted but negative stuff like trying to discredit someone who was a hard worker.  When you come on this website to try to discredit someone's credibility (other than some of the RAC's, SAC's, DAD's and Director which have already been mentioned), then you are just pure evil!!!   



#8 Fedupwrkr

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:48 PM

"outstanding"?  "ethical"?   Really?  In a recent ruling by Federal Judge, James A. Parker:

 

"SA Ortiz's testimony ....... was inconsistent."

 

".....given SA Ortiz's extensive experience as an ATF agent in the criminal enforcement division, the Court cannot help but find that the misrepresentation was reckless."

 

"SA Ortiz had an obligation to refrain from making reckless, inaccurate statements....."

 

"......the Court finds......that this statement was reckless."

 

"After carefully reviewing the record, the Court concludes that SA Ortiz acted recklessly...."

 

"......the Court cannot help but find that the misrepresentation was reckless."

 

"The ATF agents involved in this case have repeatedly overlooked details that affect the accuracy of their statements."

 

"SA Ortiz's insouciant attitude is troubling to the Court. It demonstrates a disregard for his duty to accurately present the facts to the magistrate judge."

Yes he is ethical!!  Something you will never be Ike!  It's funny how you don't post what was revealed the Defendant.  I'm sure there were unethical acts.  All with ATF or retired, ignore this troll!!  



#9 Fedupwrkr

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:45 PM

The quotes were taken directly from the Judge's ruling on a Motion to Suppress the Evidence - which has been published on Leagle.com.

Yeah, I wonder how you know this.  Is it because you are the defendant or the defendant's attorney.  This just goes to show what an evil person you are to try to smear someone's credibility on a website such as this.  SSA Ortiz's bright light will continue to shine into your darkness.  Your continued lies will be revealed and found out.  What are you losing in your case and did lose on one of the motions, is that why you are now trying to attack him and his credibility?  God himself will help them overcome and be victor's.  I know a lot more but I will chose not to say it.  



#10 Fedupwrkr

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:38 PM

Now, don't shoot the messenger.......

 

There is no question.

 

One of the early comments (scroll back to the beginning) praised Senior Special Agent Ortiz (now retired from ATF) as being outstanding and ethical.  Well, this Judge seems to have a far different opinion. 

The only way you would know what the judge decided is if you are the defendant himself.  The defendant who is unethical has been been for many years and has been proven.  You will lose in court.  SSA Ortiz is and will always be the most ethical person I have ever met in my career with ATF.  Even though he is gone, he is greatly missed.  You are so jealous of him that you have to come on this website to try to smear his name.  We all know that you are not an agent, IOI or work for ATF.  I know you are the defendant who will be held accountable for all your misdeeds.  



#11 Heisenberg

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 07:39 AM

Heisenberg,  I do not know Ortiz or his background.  I would like to add some food for thought, I think we are entitled to a professional work environment where everyone is treated fairly and respectfully without fear of retaliation for telling the truth.  We are entitled to be given a fair chance to attend training, go on desirable temporary assignments, or other opportunities.  We are entitled to fair evaluations for the promotion process based on our EPAS scores, work performance, professionalism, and other objective standards.  So I guess I am one of those people who are "destroying our agency" because I have the audacity to think I am entitled to objective and fair standards.  There is a new book out called "Assholes A Theory" which is available at Barnes and Noble.  The book is funny and concise about the definition of assholes that most people will agree to and we will stop and think about those people who have negatively affected our lives and the lives of our families and friends.  We have all been passed over for various opportunities but it gets old seeing lesser qualified, unprofessional, unethical people getting taken care of by bosses who are only concerned about getting their ego stroked and their next promotion.  I would suggest it is the bosses who fail to be a good leader that our "destroying our agency."

Goodworker,

You make some very valid points and you are absolutely correct in stating that we are entitled to fair treatment in the promotion process and in our treatment by management. Expecting that does not make you one of the people who is destroying the agency.

My point is that we have scores of people, including many bosses who feel a sense of entitlement that has nothing to do with what their capable of. We have scores of bosses who have done nothing to earn the right to lead others. They did their minimum number of blue jackets needed to keep the bosses off of their backs, and yet griped anything less than an Outstanding evaluation. These people then advance and think that they have the knowledge to tell working agents how to do the job. Their sense of entitlement is deplorable and the arrogance that comes along with it causes them to treat the working agents under them with contempt.

We have all at some point or another been passed over for something, forthe most part. But I find that the people who cling onto these things are generally not the agents that I have enjoyed workimg with. Rather, they are the agents who make people miserable to show up to work. If I am denied training, cars, or an overseas job, have I been slighted? It really depends on who actually got those things over me, doesn't it? I do know Ortiz, he way an okay agent. There were far better guys in his field division and even in his group. ATF wide, those numbers increase exponentially. So the fact that poor Frank didn't get new cars, advanced training, or an assignment in Canada don't cause me any grief.

I agree that we should be treated fairly and equitably, no doubt, but I always had more respect for the guys who dug in and got the job done over those who whine and cry about what they deserved. That ability to suck it up and do more with less is what always seperated us from the brats who went to work for the FBI, ICE and the other members of the alphabet soup. Our tenacity and willingness to work in the gutters, instead of working cases from our cubicles, is what made us. My fondest days were working in some pretty crappy environments. The shared sacrifice made us closer, like family. Losing that mentality is not in our best interest as an agency. Just my 2 cents...



#12 2ndGeneration

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 07:20 AM

Ike is not an agent. Ike is a troll. Somehow I doubt he even knows who SA Ortiz is anyway.



#13 GoodWorker

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 07:14 AM

I don't understand where this thread is- or ever was- going, but I don't particularly care for people who whine over things like being passed over for a new car, an assignment, or training. Most of us have been passed over for things in our careers, for one reason or another. I find the people who complain about it are usually not the working case agents, but rather the crybabies. Workers get back in the game and wait for other opportunities thag they may- or may not get. Those who feel entitled are part of what is destroying our agency. I've never had a new car, I've been passed over for training and I know that those OCONUS spots are for GS14 and GS15s. Who cares? I don't even care. All we are ENTITLED to is a paycheck.

Heisenberg,  I do not know Ortiz or his background.  I would like to add some food for thought, I think we are entitled to a professional work environment where everyone is treated fairly and respectfully without fear of retaliation for telling the truth.  We are entitled to be given a fair chance to attend training, go on desirable temporary assignments, or other opportunities.  We are entitled to fair evaluations for the promotion process based on our EPAS scores, work performance, professionalism, and other objective standards.  So I guess I am one of those people who are "destroying our agency" because I have the audacity to think I am entitled to objective and fair standards.  There is a new book out called "Assholes A Theory" which is available at Barnes and Noble.  The book is funny and concise about the definition of assholes that most people will agree to and we will stop and think about those people who have negatively affected our lives and the lives of our families and friends.  We have all been passed over for various opportunities but it gets old seeing lesser qualified, unprofessional, unethical people getting taken care of by bosses who are only concerned about getting their ego stroked and their next promotion.  I would suggest it is the bosses who fail to be a good leader that our "destroying our agency." 



#14 Heisenberg

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 06:19 AM

Does anyone have any comments about retired SSA Frank Ortiz III who filed an EEO complaint in 2007 and another in the 1990s? He retired on November 30, 2011.

Mr. Ortiz said he was suspended for two days for alleged misuse of his position, and was suspended at least once before that. He was passed over three times for a new vehicle, passed over twice for available assignments in Canada, and denied advanced training at least twice.


I don't understand where this thread is- or ever was- going, but I don't particularly care for people who whine over things like being passed over for a new car, an assignment, or training. Most of us have been passed over for things in our careers, for one reason or another. I find the people who complain about it are usually not the working case agents, but rather the crybabies. Workers get back in the game and wait for other opportunities thag they may- or may not get. Those who feel entitled are part of what is destroying our agency. I've never had a new car, I've been passed over for training and I know that those OCONUS spots are for GS14 and GS15s. Who cares? I don't even care. All we are ENTITLED to is a paycheck.

#15 Ike

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 01:09 PM

Now, don't shoot the messenger.......

 

There is no question.

 

One of the early comments (scroll back to the beginning) praised Senior Special Agent Ortiz (now retired from ATF) as being outstanding and ethical.  Well, this Judge seems to have a far different opinion. 



#16 Doc Holiday

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 12:35 PM

The quotes were taken directly from the Judge's ruling on a Motion to Suppress the Evidence - which has been published on Leagle.com.

WHO ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT? Whats your question?



#17 Ike

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:50 AM

The quotes were taken directly from the Judge's ruling on a Motion to Suppress the Evidence - which has been published on Leagle.com.



#18 Doc Holiday

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:35 AM

WHERE WAS THIS TAKEN FROM? Context?

Initial thoughts.............if he/she is a boss, they'll be promoted.



#19 Doc Holiday

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:27 AM

"outstanding"?  "ethical"?   Really?  In a recent ruling by Federal Judge, James A. Parker:

 

"SA Ortiz's testimony ....... was inconsistent."

 

".....given SA Ortiz's extensive experience as an ATF agent in the criminal enforcement division, the Court cannot help but find that the misrepresentation was reckless."

 

"SA Ortiz had an obligation to refrain from making reckless, inaccurate statements....."

 

"......the Court finds......that this statement was reckless."

 

"After carefully reviewing the record, the Court concludes that SA Ortiz acted recklessly...."

 

"......the Court cannot help but find that the misrepresentation was reckless."

 

"The ATF agents involved in this case have repeatedly overlooked details that affect the accuracy of their statements."

 

"SA Ortiz's insouciant attitude is troubling to the Court. It demonstrates a disregard for his duty to accurately present the facts to the magistrate judge."

WHERE WAS THIS TAKEN FROM? Context?



#20 Ike

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:06 AM

"outstanding"?  "ethical"?   Really?  In a recent ruling by Federal Judge, James A. Parker:

 

"SA Ortiz's testimony ....... was inconsistent."

 

".....given SA Ortiz's extensive experience as an ATF agent in the criminal enforcement division, the Court cannot help but find that the misrepresentation was reckless."

 

"SA Ortiz had an obligation to refrain from making reckless, inaccurate statements....."

 

"......the Court finds......that this statement was reckless."

 

"After carefully reviewing the record, the Court concludes that SA Ortiz acted recklessly...."

 

"......the Court cannot help but find that the misrepresentation was reckless."

 

"The ATF agents involved in this case have repeatedly overlooked details that affect the accuracy of their statements."

 

"SA Ortiz's insouciant attitude is troubling to the Court. It demonstrates a disregard for his duty to accurately present the facts to the magistrate judge."

 

 



#21 Retired and loving it

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:22 AM

Vince, since you are an Administrator for CUATF, you may remove my account.  I will be making no further posts.

 

Good luck to Jay, Jamie3, Fedupwrkr, Iceman, you, and all of the many, many others who are trying to clean up what was once a fine and proud organization.



#22 VINCENT A CEFALU

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:07 PM

Hey guys, nothin from nothin, you can private message each other. But thanks for the entertainment.


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#23 Retired and loving it

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 02:16 PM

Nope.  No comments to anyone who works in the Dictator's Office Observer! 



#24 Fedupwrkr

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:09 PM

I know who you are observer (baldy).  Don't be a bully.  I'm protecting him. Just because you're one of those people who's a yes man and work in the director's office.   



#25 Observer

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:45 AM

Hmmm. Did I miss the part about walking on water and turning water into wine?

(Feb. 22, 2013. Another Hmmmm. It seems all the supporting information by "Fedupwrkr" about SSA Ortiz's previous supervisor has now disappeared....)

#26 Fedupwrkr

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:40 PM

I want to say that Mr. Ortiz, one outstanding ethical person I would have his back any day. He did nothing wrong. If anyone knows Mr. Ortiz or has ever had any contact with him, they know what an outstanding and hardworking person he is. ATF lost a great agent when he retired.

#27 Observer

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:13 PM

Does anyone have any comments about retired SSA Frank Ortiz III who filed an EEO complaint in 2007 and another in the 1990s? He retired on November 30, 2011.

Mr. Ortiz said he was suspended for two days for alleged misuse of his position, and was suspended at least once before that. He was passed over three times for a new vehicle, passed over twice for available assignments in Canada, and denied advanced training at least twice.




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