121 replies to this topic

[Thor God of Thunder]

The information on the ATF Contract Investigator is good to know and will prove to be insightful and very useful. It does not remove the burden of proof from the Complainant. It is you that must prove your case. It is you that must provide the evidence. It is you that must be prepared to re-write your statement when what the investigator writes is insufficient and does not speak to the elements of discrimination and pretext in your case. I do agree that the EEOC system is designed for scandalous and "federal agencies gone wild" like ATF to win. If you are not on your game and willing to be specific and point out and outline the evidence that you have that talks to the elements of discrimination and pretext, when the agency is allowed to provide a "business reason" you will not prevail even with the best of attorneys, at your side. We must start to remove the emotion from dealing with such an abusive and fraudulent employer and speak to the elements of discrimination/pretext and have a strategy to prevail in individual and collective cases. We need to provide each other statements that challenge the credibility of the ATF Officials. There are some success stories out there and we should share information on how these successes were achieved and how we can help others to achieve the same success. It is then and only then that ATF will begin to really think about their personnel abuses and will reign in Ms. Eleaner "The Hobbit" Loos AKA "I will do anything to win." A review of EEOC cases suggests that the majority of federal employees do not prevail in their claims. The reason they do not prevail is because they do not address the elements of discrimination and pretext, state a claim, or their complaint is rendered moot. We need to develop standardized ways where these items can be addressed so that more and more ATF employees prevail in their complaints and the area of equal opportunity is taken just a little more serious. I would also suggest that a group of us get together and either write our congressmen and point out these abuses to have them corrected. We can do a joint letter or I will come up with a draft form letter that you can amend as you see fit. We also need to write a letter to GAO to let them know about these abuses. Mr. Melson has been provided more than ample opportunity to deal with these abuses and while I must acknowledge he has had some successes, this is not sufficient. Mr. Melson has to address the many pending cases in a fair and honest manner. The continuous delays, unfair and technical dismissals, denials of the truth, and abuses must stop now! Mr. Melson stopping these abuses now are the right thing to do. Mr. Melson these abuses are now happening under your watch what are you doing to stop them??

[Doc Holiday]

The below post is exactly why FLEOA wanted the EEOC functions within ATF transferred to Justice.

[ProConfesso]

Madeas posting is exactly correct. DSZ is controlling the evidence and information flow. Lets face it, who wouldn't want to keep the ATF EEOC contract. When we exceed the FBI and DEA, thats a lot of money. Be aware and Challenge everything DSZ does. ATF managers are sent the questions w/o ever being interviewed. They craft their answers and then ATF counsel RECRAFTS their final declaration. Subpoena or request in discovery the original declaration. If the DSZ investigator (and I use the term very loosely)has never interviewed the boss, how can he/she write an ROI regarding the material facts of the case? MAKE SURE the documents you want included in your statement are IMBEDDED in a PDF document as DSZ regularly leaves damning documents out. FINALLY, FLEOA advised Mr. Melson they felt the EEOC function should be taken away from ATF and placed at Main Justice. Melson asked that ATF be allowed to correct the problems (I thought there were no problems per his comments to CNN). I think its time DOJ takes over the EEOC, its a dispute factory as run by Loos and company. Most disputes should have been handled with a handshake, not cost the taxpayers Millions. Are you listening Mr. Melson AND Mr. Traver?????????

Of course, the claimant can also prepare a statement prior to DSZ interview and incorporate it.
What may be worth questioning is the once practice of allowing a claimant to read and rebut the statements of management or the discriminators. I heard DSZ no longer does this? Is this under the direction of the Agency?
Too bad, reality is, the pitiful eeoc judges who aren't usually even admitted to the bar in the states they hear cases don't read the files..

[ProConfesso]

The MD-110 is the bible on Federal sector EEOC regs. Use it. MD-110, Chapter 9, VII, A, governs "reconsideration" and the thresholds. Not considering compensatory damages is unlikely to prevail. An AJ presumably would only get there if they found discrimination. That said, by all means file one. (30 days - for H's post on 9/19 your still good) Be prepared to wait and wait some more..Everyone should know, as one shrewd Office of Chief Counsel observed, these things drag on. But use to your advantage if need be..Make sure your GS and discriminator know about your eeoc action - and be ready to pounce with another claim of reprisal if you are retaliated against. You'll have a better chance of sucess. The OFO is backlogged 18 months in issuing decisions on Appeals. What may be worth noting is a 6th Circuit Court of Appeals Decision (759 F.2d 535, 1985, U.S. App.) that said, The eeoc final decision on each appellant's motion to reconsider was its final action for purposes of 42 USC 2000(e)-16©...i.e. a federal employee may file a civil complaint in District Court within 30 days of receipt of "final action" by the eeoc. So, by filing "reconsideration" you are extending your timeline should you decide to go to District Court after the EEOC circus - uh, I mean, process.

[Doc Holiday]

Madeas posting is exactly correct. DSZ is controlling the evidence and information flow. Lets face it, who wouldn't want to keep the ATF EEOC contract. When we exceed the FBI and DEA, thats a lot of money. Be aware and Challenge everything DSZ does. ATF managers are sent the questions w/o ever being interviewed. They craft their answers and then ATF counsel RECRAFTS their final declaration. Subpoena or request in discovery the original declaration. If the DSZ investigator (and I use the term very loosely)has never interviewed the boss, how can he/she write an ROI regarding the material facts of the case? MAKE SURE the documents you want included in your statement are IMBEDDED in a PDF document as DSZ regularly leaves damning documents out. FINALLY, FLEOA advised Mr. Melson they felt the EEOC function should be taken away from ATF and placed at Main Justice. Melson asked that ATF be allowed to correct the problems (I thought there were no problems per his comments to CNN). I think its time DOJ takes over the EEOC, its a dispute factory as run by Loos and company. Most disputes should have been handled with a handshake, not cost the taxpayers Millions. Are you listening Mr. Melson AND Mr. Traver?????????

[Hiram A]

"Posted Today, 01:09 PM Ladies and Gentlemen: After I received the EEOC Decision on Appeal, which was in favor of the Agency, I was, of course, disappointed. I took a second look at it and I made the decision to request Reconsideration based on the following: "STATEMENT OF RIGHTS - ON APPEAL RECONSIDERATION (M0701) The Commission may, in its discretion, reconsider the decision in this case if the complainant or the agency submits a written request containing arguments or evidence which tend to establish that: 1. The appellate decision involved a clearly erroneous interpretation of material fact or law..." Specifically when I took a closer look at the Decision on Appeal, I noticed that the fact that I had requested compensatory damages had not been properly considered nor the fact that I suffered harm was also not properly considered. In addition, the Decision indicated that the Agency indicated that no selection was made, when in fact the announcement was canceled. I provided specific evidence that proves the above is true. It is my hope that the EEOC will agree with me this time. I will keep you posted. This is Hiram Andrades reporting to you live for Clean Up ATF.org!" Is stating the facts incorrectly another trick?

[Thor God of Thunder]

"The personnel issues CleanUpATF has been trying to address are universally just as if not more difficult in other federal agencies, because they represent the soft underbelly of management -- and all sorts of folks who have signed off on indecent, crummy decisions, and looking to cover themselves. It is typically only when an aggrieved person has golden documentation and, in some cases, golden testimonials, that s/he can prevail. There's simply no easy way to deal with that stuff. Unless things get really out of hand, the Congress isn't likely to delve into internal personnel issues; I'm not saying it can't happen, but it would be fairly rare. The Congress is MOST likely to get involved when top ATF managers present information that is false or has no factual basis --- catch 'em doing that, and the Congress WILL mess with them, but you'll need golden evidence, and a lot of it --- not just one or two cases." The quote above is from an email I received on the website. The person did not want to post it but provided some great insight so I thought that I would share this. I hope s/he From an outside person looking in, we need to strive for "GOLDEN DOCUMENTATION" and "GOLDEN TESTIMONIALS" to prevail against ATF if you feel that you have been discriminated or retaliated against.

[Doc Holiday]

These tricks are not tricks. They are unethical and in some cases illegal practices perpetrated by chief counsel aka E. Loos to create a chilling effect within the Bureau. Guess what, we aint chilled. 20 + ongoing and pending complaints in SFFD alone. Mr. Melson it is on your watch now?

[Thor God of Thunder]

If your case is dismissed, do not give up! If your case is dismissed, do not give up! If your case is dismissed, do not give up!!!

It has been demonstrated and seen over and over again that when your case is dismissed, it is usually dismissed for some minor technicality and it really should not be dismissed in the first place. Look up case law and see what has been done in similar cases that have been dismissed and use the same strategy to have your case reinstated.

You can do this with or without an attorney. Sometimes, these attorney's are just taking your money when they know that you do not have a chance in hell to prevail. Your attorney should be upfront and let you know what the deficiencies are in your case and what you need to win. This is what ATF has been infamous for exploiting. They will run up your attorney's fees and leave you twisting in the wind. I have seen where employees are screwed over and then on top of that left with large attorney bills to pay off. The only folks that are benefitting from this process are the snake in the grass attorney's. I don't know who is worse an attorney or an ATF attorney or Eleaner Loos!

[corrections1]

If your case is dismissed, do not give up! If your case is dismissed, do not give up! If your case is dismissed, do not give up!!!

Hey, let me explain federal law to you, because apparently Thor doesn't have a clue here. If your case is dismissed, the federal court system is telling you that you don't have JACK coming to you. Come on, you slugs, get back to work and stop thinking about suing your boss. Ever hear the saying that you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you? Well, apparently, dumb azz Thor hasn't figured that one out yet!!!!

[Thor God of Thunder]

If your case is dismissed, do not give up! If your case is dismissed, do not give up! If your case is dismissed, do not give up!!! It has been demonstrated and seen over and over again that when your case is dismissed, it is usually dismissed for some minor technicality and it really should not be dismissed in the first place. Look up case law and see what has been done in similar cases that have been dismissed and use the same strategy to have your case reinstated. You can do this with or without an attorney. Sometimes, these attorney's are just taking your money when they know that you do not have a chance in hell to prevail. Your attorney should be upfront and let you know what the deficiencies are in your case and what you need to win. This is what ATF has been infamous for exploiting. They will run up your attorney's fees and leave you twisting in the wind. I have seen where employees are screwed over and then on top of that left with large attorney bills to pay off. The only folks that are benefitting from this process are the snake in the grass attorney's. I don't know who is worse an attorney or an ATF attorney or Eleaner Loos!

[Loki]

This from a Doc Holiday post....just because they give you what you want, if you allege retaliation, they are still liable. This is the case in the Supreme Court decision below... BURLINGTON NORTHERN AND SANTA FE RAILWAY COMPANY, PETITIONER v. SHEILA WHITE on writ of certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the sixth circuit [June 22, 2006] No. 05-259.?Argued April 17, 2006--Decided June 22, 2006 Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 forbids employment discrimination based on "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin," 42 U. S. C. §2000e-2(a), and its anti-retaliation provision forbids "discriminat[ion] against" an employee or job applicant who, inter alia, has "made a charge, testified, assisted, or participated in" a Title VII proceeding or investigation, §2000e-3(a) It CLEARLY states that just because the agency reverses its bad acts when the complainant is nipping at their heels, does not negate the fact that they took the act in the first place. Please research this case and read in its entirety.

[Loki]

Exellent Thor! ATF won't move in a postive way into the future by ignoring or failing to fix the past.

The injuries of the past shall never heal unless confronted and medicated!

[Thor God of Thunder]

I listened to some of the Deputy Director's remarks and was once again, smacked in the face with the hypocrisy that is continuously adhered to by our agency. The DD stated that ATF has stumbled and made mistakes in the past and that we can not continue to live in the past. Well, when we prosecute convicted felons...what do we look at? The past! When we want to take an FFLs license for improper record keeping...what do we look at? The past!! When we want to deny an FFL application...what do we look at? The past!!! When we want to hammer an employee or even fire an employee....what do we look at? The past!!!! Therefore, it is very disingenuous to ask people that have been abused by ATF to not look at ATF's past when no genuine effort to make them whole has been made and they are abused in the future. The positive thing from the DDs remarks is that ATF supervisors and managers have been placed on noticed not to retaliate against employees or nothing will happen. It remains to be seen whether it is adhered to or the DDs request will be placed to the side or ignored. At least he is on the record and appeared to be sincere.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Mediation is indeed a waste of time for an ATF claimant. The "mediators" usually SACs or SES from another Agency come into the meeting "cold'" i.e. they have not read anything from the file about the case. You have to "summarize" your case - and make it snappy because they don't want to miss lunch. They often do not know the EEOC law well enough themselves. I liken it to when an Agent goes to the US Atty's office when the AUSA decides to offer the defendant in a criminal prosecution a look at the evidence (I forget right now the name used for this session) in order to push for a plea. In the case of mediation ATF just uses it to find out how strong your case is and how willing you are to proceed. ATF Counsel at the mediation is the same counsel who will be defending the Agency. The first question to ask at a "mediation" (and the only reason for doing so may be to show that you are really trying to resolve a discriminatory issue from all angles) is if the ATF representative has settlement authority. EEOC requires that they do. If they don't, which is likely the case - their is no need to proceed and you should send a letter to the EEOC documenting the Agency's failure.

This is a situation where I hate to be right. I wish ATF would bargain in good faith and not just what is best for ATF vs. what is best for the employee and ATF. I will not waste my time on mediation. They give you something minimal and keep on F#$#!$# with you until the next time that you file and spend money on an attorney.

[ProConfesso]

Members and the curious observers, Thor God of Thunder is right. Mediation, Alternative Dispute Resolution, whatever name they want to give it is bad for you as an employee. It sounds promising and to those who want their cases to settle ATF is very good at luring you to the table. Don't do it! Don't walk away from mediation, run away. There are countless examples of ATF Cheif Counsels office dangling the carrot of a resolution in front of you but it is a bluff. ATF DOES NOT NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH AND THEY WILL &%$@ YOU AT MEDIATION.

Mediation is indeed a waste of time for an ATF claimant. The "mediators" usually SACs or SES from another Agency come into the meeting "cold'" i.e. they have not read anything from the file about the case. You have to "summarize" your case - and make it snappy because they don't want to miss lunch. They often do not know the EEOC law well enough themselves. I liken it to when an Agent goes to the US Atty's office when the AUSA decides to offer the defendant in a criminal prosecution a look at the evidence (I forget right now the name used for this session) in order to push for a plea. In the case of mediation ATF just uses it to find out how strong your case is and how willing you are to proceed. ATF Counsel at the mediation is the same counsel who will be defending the Agency. The first question to ask at a "mediation" (and the only reason for doing so may be to show that you are really trying to resolve a discriminatory issue from all angles) is if the ATF representative has settlement authority. EEOC requires that they do. If they don't, which is likely the case - their is no need to proceed and you should send a letter to the EEOC documenting the Agency's failure.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Make no mistake here. The field employees of ATF are suffering. We are a law enforcment agency that is managed based on liablility and ATF's attorneys are the decision makers.

They can run but they can no longer hide! As someone else said, these cockroaches/cucarachas will be running for cover when the spotlight is shined on them.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Another tactic our lovely ATF will use is to dismiss your claim..... If left with no other choice, Chief Counsel's Office Rubi-cube (Rubinsteins) and the Hobitt, will dismiss your claim citing laws and case law. Do not believe the hype! You can always find case law that trumps their case law. They spin. They leave important details out. This is why attorney's are viewed as the scum of the earth. These ATF attorneys have no honor, are unethical, indecent and immoral knowing they are outright lying when they do these things. This is not a defense. This is spin. This is lying! Remember, lying is the omission and/or the fabrication of the truth. They should be fired!!! Additionally, the length of time these complaints take to be processed and that ATF banks on you whithering away, going into financial distress, and wearing you out is the reason that they take their time in addressing the issues of employees. This is lunacy! This is retaliatory in and of itself. This should not be tolerated.

[Thor God of Thunder]

As long as it maintains the prid quo pro, ATF does not care and does not give a damn about the little guy!

[Doc Holiday]

I know of at least one Agent (Cefalu) attempted to forward information contained on cleanupatf to Mr. Melson. If I read it correctly, it took two grievances and a betrayal by the Ombudsman's office to finally get it in Mr. Melsons hands. He kicked it back down to Billy who was even less interested in the totally dismal state of affairs in the field. they are absolutely not concerned with the opinion of ONE of our 2000 agents or 5000 employees. They choose to ignore and operate in a vacuum. It appears to be fruitless to attempt to take the gentlemanly in-house approach. Otherwise why would they filter cleanupatf in the first place. Mr. Melson is intent to keep his head in the sand and maybe nobody will notice what is occurring across this fine Bureau. Remember, if you acknowledge a problem, you must then deal with it.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Ms. Loos has personally tainted out management pool. She regularly teachs the new Supervisor class that they are to never address their mistakes. That SHE and counsels office have their back and will bring the weight of the government and all the resources of the agency raining down upon anyone that should file a grievance or complaint against any supervisor. Problem with this philosophy? It suggests they are immune from accountability. It teachs young supervisors that no matter what, they never make mistakes. And the most destructive premise of all, is she encourages the Us and Them mentality. That you are management now and you are no longer held to any standards and we will protect you. You are on the team. Ms. Loos, news flash, WE ARE THE TEAM. Ms. Loos is devisive and corrupt. He actions and her counsel are illegal. She effective tears our family apart. The BAR should and will be aware of her actions. She should be disbarred and clearly told to pack her office up and leave this great Bureau. She has single handedly wasted millions of dollars of tax payer money and destroyed our institution. She has destroyed the lives of some of our best Agents and their families and somehow believes she is immune. She is NOT. She should have been fired when she failed to act when former ATF attorney Richard Hurst produced false documents to defend managements actions and she had direct knowledge, TWICE. Did she fire Mr. Hurst? No. She allowed him to slide over to TSA counsel and continue to practice law. Has she fired Ms. Bouman for knowingly sitting on perjury by managers in a major criminal case? No. Mr. Melson, do not let counsels office continue to drive whats left of our agency into the ground. Truly as a career public servant AND an attorney you cannot condone this from your counsel. We are speaking up. Are you listening? In light of the number of views of these postings (in the thousands) and the number of postings from Agents, Inspectors and support staff AND the public(hundreds), I pose the following question: #1 Should we send a weekly overview of the ongoing abuses to Mr. Melson at KEN.MELSON@ATF.GOV? #2 DOES HE CARE? #3 Is there a down side to ensuring that he is aware of all these grievances being aired out on this website?

Send him a weekly update so that we make sure that he is aware of the grievances of the employees.

[Thor God of Thunder]

If ATF refuses to get their act together, we may need Congress to call in the GAO! Check out: http://www.gao.gov/n...ems/d04310g.pdf They would truly be able to determine the amount of retaliation that occurs in this agency and the amount of "hook ups" that occur by Executives in this agency. I am not a hater but they are the same ones that get hooked up with the promotions. I as well as some of you know a few like that. On this post, I will not call any names....but feel free to do so.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Do not extend your complaint. Do not extend your complaint. Do not extend your complaint. Once in for hearig, do not amend your complaint. This only gives ATF more time to think how they are going to cheat to win the case. This gives them more time to think about an out. ADR and Mediation are all stall tactics. They never work unless you back down.

Those of you that have signed up as members....please take the poll.

[Thor God of Thunder]

The ATF EEOC Office continues to be a long arm of Chief Counsel's Office. Contrary to its mandate and mission, the ATF EEOC office is not interested in stamping out nor the deterring of illegal discriminatory or retaliatory employment practices. ATF intentionally sits on their EEO cases to drag things out and attempts to discourage, victimize and further retaliate against ATF employees. They will then say that they are objective but they really are not. WTF Do not expect to get promoted, your favorite assignments, awards or an Outstanding evaluation, while you are engaged in litigation with the agency. You are on the black list, black balled and it is simply not going to happen. WTF I am sure there are some decent and moral men and women that work in the ATF EEOC Office but are also being held hostage by their management and Director Stacie Brockman. WTF Another long arm of Chief Counsel's Office is also, Human Resources, Helen Oates and Dianne Filler do management's bidding no matter how illegal or immoral it is. They have a standing meeting with Chief Counsel's Office to address the many EEO complaints that they have filed against their unsavory and criminal practices. If you filed an EEO complainant, do not expect to get promoted or advance in ATF. You are black listed and/or black balled. Dianne Filler hired her own son for a position at ATF or did Helen do it for her? I wonder.... Did I mention that her ex-husband is Jeff Stirling? This could explain the reason why he is a 15 today. But this is nepotism at its best! This is but another one of ATF's many problems. WTF With all due respect, Deputy Director Melson WTF are you going to do about this?

[Thor God of Thunder]

It would be nice for someone to accurately account for how much Newell is directly responsible for paying out in one year in uncessary settlements. The agency is concealing the actual cost to taxpayers by NOT settling under the provisions of the No Fear act and EEOC settlement parameters.They add questionable confidentiality language to avoid congressional oversight. This is how they are avoiding paying back Justice for these settlements. The problem with that is, the millions paid out under SAC Newell and SAC Martin and others has to come from somewhere else. Ms. Loos openly advises managers that its a simple memo to avoid disciplinary action for the responsible manager. Therefore there is NO impetus to discourage misconduct by managers. Its not coming out of their or Ms. Loos' pocket.

Maybe we should send a FOIA requesting this information and make a OSC investigation out of it when it is not produced.

[Doc Holiday]

It would be nice for someone to accurately account for how much Newell is directly responsible for paying out in one year in uncessary settlements. The agency is concealing the actual cost to taxpayers by NOT settling under the provisions of the No Fear act and EEOC settlement parameters.They add questionable confidentiality language to avoid congressional oversight. This is how they are avoiding paying back Justice for these settlements. The problem with that is, the millions paid out under SAC Newell and SAC Martin and others has to come from somewhere else. Ms. Loos openly advises managers that its a simple memo to avoid disciplinary action for the responsible manager. Therefore there is NO impetus to discourage misconduct by managers. Its not coming out of their or Ms. Loos' pocket.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Another infamous trick by ATF is taking their sweet time and delaying... They take their sweet time for everything... If you start out with an EEO complaint, they attempt to see how deep your pockets are and how long you can pay a lawyer. When you go to federal court, it starts the clock over. They are happy when you do this because this means that they have more time. They only pay your lawyers fees if you prevail and have a good attorney. If you wonder why we do not have good cars, bullet proof vests, or new firearms it could be that ATF just recently paid out a settlement in a lawsuit.

[Thor God of Thunder]

I believe that ATF Management is fully aware of the posts on this website.

Several offices have been advised not to go on this website because it is being monitored. I seriously believe that this website and its postings are discussed in meetings.

The question: Why do you think they say that?
The response: I dunno! (looking puzzled and trying to be convincing)

The question: Is any of this true?
The answer: No, these are disgruntled employees that will never be happy! (looking serious and trying not let everyone know they are lying)

These are the same responses and lame excuses that management has been using for years. Are there any new ones....probably not...these same managers have not had an original thought in years and are counter productive to the mission of the Bureau.

[Doc Holiday]

Ms. Loos has personally tainted out management pool. She regularly teachs the new Supervisor class that they are to never address their mistakes. That SHE and counsels office have their back and will bring the weight of the government and all the resources of the agency raining down upon anyone that should file a grievance or complaint against any supervisor. Problem with this philosophy? It suggests they are immune from accountability. It teachs young supervisors that no matter what, they never make mistakes. And the most destructive premise of all, is she encourages the Us and Them mentality. That you are management now and you are no longer held to any standards and we will protect you. You are on the team. Ms. Loos, news flash, WE ARE THE TEAM. Ms. Loos is devisive and corrupt. He actions and her counsel are illegal. She effective tears our family apart. The BAR should and will be aware of her actions. She should be disbarred and clearly told to pack her office up and leave this great Bureau. She has single handedly wasted millions of dollars of tax payer money and destroyed our institution. She has destroyed the lives of some of our best Agents and their families and somehow believes she is immune. She is NOT. She should have been fired when she failed to act when former ATF attorney Richard Hurst produced false documents to defend managements actions and she had direct knowledge, TWICE. Did she fire Mr. Hurst? No. She allowed him to slide over to TSA counsel and continue to practice law. Has she fired Ms. Bouman for knowingly sitting on perjury by managers in a major criminal case? No. Mr. Melson, do not let counsels office continue to drive whats left of our agency into the ground. Truly as a career public servant AND an attorney you cannot condone this from your counsel. We are speaking up. Are you listening? In light of the number of views of these postings (in the thousands) and the number of postings from Agents, Inspectors and support staff AND the public(hundreds), I pose the following question: #1 Should we send a weekly overview of the ongoing abuses to Mr. Melson at KEN.MELSON@ATF.GOV? #2 DOES HE CARE? #3 Is there a down side to ensuring that he is aware of all these grievances being aired out on this website?

[Thor God of Thunder]

The irony in Mrs. Loos' actions to deny ATF employees equal opportunity when she has been the beneficiary of equal employment opportunity. The hypocrisy and disdain from Mrs. Loos for employees seeking to have their grievances addressed is palpable. She is another rattle snake ready to bite in a New York second but I do not think that she is from Texas! Just thinking out loud...

[Thor God of Thunder]

For more information on discovery and Federal Rules of Civil Procedures go to the following website:

http://www.law.corne...frcp/Rule26.htm


This outlines what the government is required to do when it comes to discovery. They are never going to hand you your case on a silver platter or give you evidence for your case, if they can help it.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Evidence - You should have all of the evidence you need prior to beginning your fight with ATF. ATF will not give you any evidence against themselves. They will use the attorney-client priviledge for any incriminating evidence or object to any documents that they have that can prove your case.

[Pitbull]

Agent 14, thanks for your post. I am a first line supervisor and am proud of it. i know and understand that my people are everything and the most important thing to get my job done successfully. We have to stop thinking that please and thank you are bad words. I too have a pending complaint because I have a jack*** masquerading as a supervisor. So I feel your pain. Unfortunately we at ATF do not have a system where we hold upper management accountable for their actions. If ATF was really serious about doing this, we would have evaluations of supervisors at every level that included input from the people that they work for as well as the people that work for them. Keep grinding and keep your spirits up.

I would like to thank all of the CUATF members who posted on this topic. This section is particularly helpful for agents in the field that are dealing with EEO issues with management. It has been especially helpful to me. This site lets working agents out there know that they are not alone. Management wants us to feel isolated and insignificant and this site gives agents across the country hope. Real street agents with pride in the agency and their work, despite our uninspiring leadership, will keep this agency alive.

To all the agents out there that are disgruntled with management, I say to you;

-Don't let them stop you from working good ATF cases. If they close one door, open another.
-Don't get down on yourself and know that you are NOT alone.
-Don't ever forget how proud you really are to be an ATF Special Agent.
-Don't forget that no matter how management tries to twist, lie, and "forget things"(to name a few things they are know for) at the end of the day the truth will always be the truth.
-Don't give management too much credit, the real working street agents are the real investigators and we are very good at what we do.
-DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT!
-Don't use it as an excuse to work road kill cases because management won't give you any trouble. I am saying this to you from one agent to another who has personally experienced a great deal of problems with management for working ATF cases. If you give up, the cycle will continue.

Is it really hard to think a step ahead of our "60% club" managers????? We know they are going to stab us in the back BEFORE they make poor decisions and blame it on the working agent to try to save themselves.

To Management;
The working agents of today are what will make you a better manager (that is if you are interested in that). Yes, you may have to call some shots and holly crap you might not know what to do, if you let real agents work. If you are so afraid to makes mistakes that you want to take your ball and go home, maybe you should not be in management. Everyone makes mistakes, even management. As agents we are not expecting you to be perfect. We are just asking that when you make a mistake you own up to it. (I know most of you are laughing at this point). By being in management you have taken a step forward to take on some of the responsibility of facilitating our agents work in producing good case work for this agency. You stepped up, so step up. Don’t be afraid of good hard working agents. It may be outside of your comfort zone but we are what will help you grow as a supervisor. Would it be asking for too much, if you don’t know the answer to something, for you to just admit that you don’t know the answer? By the way, we aren’t selling used cars here. The old fake it until you make it, could cause someone to lose their life. An ego is a terrible thing to have as a manager which could also have grave ramifications for all parties involved. If your agents wrote evaluations on YOUR performance, what do you think it would say? (Oh nothing bad, because then you would retaliate) Seriously, I would like to challenge you to get to know your agents. I bet you could find something that is good in each one of your agents. If you do know them and you can’t find something good in them, make them good at something. You are a supervisor, right?

[Thor God of Thunder]

When engaging in litigation with ATF, do not show them your entire case and all of your evidence. Save the strongest or the best evidence for last. ATF will custom the evidence, suborn perjury, rob, cheat, pick and choose witnesses that bolster their case and steal to win. I have never seen anything like this.

They are desperate to win, especially when their loss can result in a maximum 300k cash award for the aggrieved party. I guess they only settle when 1. It is obvious that you did it. (Stankiewicz) or 2. You know where all of the bodies are buried. (Domenech) In these two settlements, there were $$$ awards.

Back to my original point, save your best for last. This is what ATF does. They wait to provide you witness statements at the last minute. Once they know what kind of evidence your are going to present, they counter with witness statements and flimsy evidence to show you have not proven your case. This is the reason that it is so important for you to know exactly what it is that you have to prove so that you can be successful. You need to back it up with prior and previous EEOC case law cases or District court cases.

BTW, ATF will cite a lot of cases, I guess to bury you in research. If you know what you have got to prove you and have it before hand it will be easy to play games with them, instead of them playing games with you! Good luck!!

[Thor God of Thunder]

[quote name='abteilung' date='28 February 2010 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1267371516' post='267']
I wish this site was aroung back in 2006 when I entered the "Alice in Wonderland" alternate universe of EEO. Then I would have never consented to the request made by that idiot Tony Torres to extend the EEO informal investigation when his office sat on my first EEO complaint for over 180 days, followed by two more complaints for retaliation.
There are statistics on there on the EEOC website. I think it takes ATF over 400 days to investigate a complaint when statutorily they have 180. How can an agency call itself law enforcement when it regularly breaks the law?
[/quot

Whether you extend discovery/informal investigation or not they do not care, they are going to take their sweet time and extend it. You can request a hearing from EEOC directly and mention that the agency has not completed the investigation and the Agency needs to produce the investigative file. The minute they assign the Administrative Judge. Have your attorney make a motion to compel the agency to show cause or be sanctioned and compel the agency to produce the investigative file. They will never give you the evidence that you need to beat them so you need to know what you have already and be able to prove your case way before you get to the formal investigation. You have to take them to task.

[abteilung]

Extending discovery - NEVER EXTEND DISCOVERY

In order for you to extend discovery, you and the agency have to agree in writing. Do not agree. This is another way of the agency stalling and not providing you with anyhting.

If you are going to pursue the agency, you better have all of the evidence you need prior to filing your complaint.

The agency does not provide discovery if they know you are going to win. They just hope that you screw up and do not have enough evidence to prevail. They also do not want their officials on the stand.

The extension of discovery is a waste of time.

I wish this site was aroung back in 2006 when I entered the "Alice in Wonderland" alternate universe of EEO. Then I would have never consented to the request made by that idiot Tony Torres to extend the EEO informal investigation when his office sat on my first EEO complaint for over 180 days, followed by two more complaints for retaliation.
There are statistics on there on the EEOC website. I think it takes ATF over 400 days to investigate a complaint when statutorily they have 180. How can an agency call itself law enforcement when it regularly breaks the law?

[Thor God of Thunder]

Director Loos:

And it is Director, everyone knows that you are running the agency. You should not get your jollies by treating your fellow employees the way that you do. I am sure that if your children were treated in the same manner you would not approve and would want to do something about it. For whatever little decency is left in your body, stop the bloodshed and stop the assasination of character, the rampant discrimination, the rampant retaliation and the rampant ethical violations! Please!

[Thor God of Thunder]

Things to watch for: Ms. Loos and crew cancelled or continued significant meetings, hearings,telecoferences with the Judge and depositions 4 (four) times based on undisclosed illness or medical reasons. They have done this on consecutive cases, (fairly unhealthy bunch up there). Then they will advise the court (after the usual "too Broad", "not relevant" cut and paste oppositions) to your request for documents that "the agency IS NOT AWARE of any documents that are responsive to your request. They will do this 2-3 times. Then on the 11th hour, they will be dropped in your lap by the 1000's, making it costly and very difficult to review and use what they have sent you. These defense attorney like actions MUST be challenged. Press your attorney to ask for sactions AS SOON as they do this. If your Attorney does not want to take this action(probably because he/she believes ATF government attorneys are somehow ethical) then fire your attorney and get one who will shut down this sort of conduct. Remember Transparency is the word of the day. You dont withold documents if there is nothing to hide.

No matter how much discovery they drop on you. You should know what exactly it is that you need. For example, concentrate on the relevant Chronology of Events that serves to prove your case and not all of the additional junk and inflamatory language that they provide to distract you. It is very evident that they do this with the intent of having you focus on the wrong thing. You need to focus on the elements you have to prove to prevail. Do not worry about the other junk. This is a clue...when the agency says things like there are no additional documents that satisfy this request....you should look for documents but do not expect the agency to give them to you because they will not. You have to dig them up yourself. They will even doctor or redact the documents so that you do not know their source or where to look. A good source for you to find out what you need to prevail is http://www.eeoc.gov/...l/decisions.cfm which has appellate decisions. Do not be discouraged or surprised by how many federal employees lose their cases because they do not know what they need to prevail. Learn from their mistakes and bust their ($#!$#!@!! Having a mouthpiece is nice but you need to know what you need to assist in your case and you can focus your attorney in the right direction...Good Luck!!