16 replies to this topic

[Doc Holiday]

Thor, as always thank you for sharing your insight. The SAC is an old revenuer who couldn't get out of the bottle. He didnt want to come to SFFD and even attempted to go to TSA. At least he knew he was way out of his league in a major international field division, but Gordon and Champion refused so he got tagged. He lasted about one year, had one heart attack and checked out while he was there. I suspect w/o asking that he does nothing and relies upon the so called scarecrow to run things. Vido was a marginal, let me repeat a marginal agent and his ASAC used his attorney and the EEOC to rise in rank. Sorry guys and gals, that's the REAL merit system. Vidos reign of terror is coming to a close shortly. There will be sworn documents showing clear cut perjury UNDER OATH by him. We'll wait and see how HQ handles this. CUATF also has a line to two sub-committees which we will post soon, who have shown great interest in the foolishness being perpetrated by HQ and field management. We also have interest and a point of contact at MAIN DOJ ethics division regarding the actions of ATF Chief counsels Office in recent history. Remember.............THIS IS OUR BUREAU TOO. We invited Mr. Melson to follow through and he has ignored us.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Thor,

I agree that we the supervisors, especially those of us in the KMA club, need to step up and show the wrongs but it has to be a united effort from field agents and first line supervisors for it to mean anything. If the first line supervisor is the only one doing it then he/she just gets whacked to DC and replaced by a slug. If the field agent does it on his own, they get retaliated against with a move or whatever else they can think of. IT MUST COME FROM BOTH!!!! This is not a they need to do it so the rest can benefit club. It has to be everyone for it to be noticed. HQ can pick off the individuals, or at a minimum make it difficult for them but I doubt they can take on a dedicated group. One of the problems that has happened to us is that we see an individual putting up a good fight and instead of supporting them, we shy away and let that individual fight alone. Even if you have no dog in the fight, show support, assist where you can. Anyway, a united front is what is needed.

Concerned Sup,

I understand totally and agree we must be united. I am the guy that everyone shys away from. For me, this is not about the KMA club. This is about stepping up period. I am there 110% of the way. I have fought in a group where everyone benefitted but some more than others and I have also fought alone so I can do either or. In my previous comment, I was just wanting to be realistic. I am prepared to come forward at any time. I always have and always will. We must realize that everyone can't take licking and keep on ticking. This is why they continue to get away with this nonsense.

Cool Hand,

I agree with you too. We do have a lot of voyeurs, who are unwilling to sign-up and be counted. (See my membership post) I appreciate those that have signed up but we still have alot of voyeurs. Sign-up today!

[Cool Hand]

Brothers and Sisters: I am sorry I didn't chime in sooner as I could have written Concernedsup's original "We Are To Blame" commentary myself (i.e. I agree with it that much). I am also a first line supervisor. No one WANTS to be martyred (believe me), but 1000+ cannot "view" this website while a hand full are singled out as disgruntled, crap-stirring, trouble making, wannabe union stewards. We have a leadership crisis and we've had one for a long time. Those who have individually told the emperor he is naked have been singled out and dealt with swiftly. We need a concerted effort to speak out by the working, productive and patriotic employees who care about the agency and its highly honorable mission. Best always, Cool Hand

[Concernedsup]

Thor, I agree that we the supervisors, especially those of us in the KMA club, need to step up and show the wrongs but it has to be a united effort from field agents and first line supervisors for it to mean anything. If the first line supervisor is the only one doing it then he/she just gets whacked to DC and replaced by a slug. If the field agent does it on his own, they get retaliated against with a move or whatever else they can think of. IT MUST COME FROM BOTH!!!! This is not a they need to do it so the rest can benefit club. It has to be everyone for it to be noticed. HQ can pick off the individuals, or at a minimum make it difficult for them but I doubt they can take on a dedicated group. One of the problems that has happened to us is that we see an individual putting up a good fight and instead of supporting them, we shy away and let that individual fight alone. Even if you have no dog in the fight, show support, assist where you can. Anyway, a united front is what is needed.

[Snake bite]

First of all, I'd like to acknowledge that I have had a couple grade A bosses in ATF. These few good men and they just happened to be men, actually were compassionate for, and did stand up for and fight for their agents and the support personnel. They did these admirable acts without being asked and with disregard for possibly damaging their careers. The sole reason they stood up for their employees was because it was the right thing to do. They routinely recognized hard work and genuinely were focused on getting their employees the tools they needed to do a good job. I sure do appreciate great leadership, but unfortunately, this is not the case within the Louisville Field Division now. Each of the real leaders that I have worked with and worked for have either gotten wacked to HQ or begged to get wacked to HQ so they could get away from the deplorable leadership within the Louisville FD. The crux of the problem in the LFD starts at the top and trickles down to the rank and file workers. Ever since the Louisville dictator, A.K.A. "Little Napoleon" and his side kick, the "Scare crow" from the Wizard of Oz took the reins of the Louisville FD the respect of ATF as a whole has been in a steady downward spiral. ATF saw fit to reward the "little guy" since he ran off as many people as he could in San Francisco. As a result, ATF sent Napoleon to the Louisville FD to spread his misery. The "Scare crow", who by the way, has to be the all time EEO complaint leader in ATF history came along and has routinely showed his cellar dwelling level of ability. If someone is looking for a poster child for what happens when illegal tactics like "special tutoring" for AC testing takes place you only need to look at the Louisville FD ASAC. When this dynamic duo started their realm of terror I thought it was just their poor management style. I was hoping that they were just trying to make a statement and eventually they would come around. Well, come to find out, their illegal actions and personal vendettas are a direct reflection of the majority of the people who join the ranks of the SES. ATF has to be teaching these people this level of incompetence. The level of incompetence these two examples routinely display must be a learned trait. There is absolutely no way these two bumbling buffoons were qualified to pass the TEA, much less get through three years of probation by making these same types of terrible decisions they have been making every day within the LFD. Unfortunately, the leadership style of "Little Napoleon" and the "Scare crow" has rubbed off on some of the first line supervisors. Some of these sheep (RAC's) have taken on the "Teflon Don" belief, which they too believe they can do what they want, simply because they went to the AC and are in charge. I have seen these sheep threaten employees multiple times when the employee questions the sheep’s decision. As a result, the sheep has threatened to get the questioning employee transferred. It's amazing to me that these RAC’s, ASAC’s and SAC’s were once actual working field agents at one time. As incompetent as they have displayed their abilities, I don’t understand how they kept from getting hurt or killed when working the street. Mr. Melson, if you truly want to make ATF a better, more productive agency get rid of the tyrant like SAC's and ASAC's that I described in the above paragraphs. There are quality leaders within this agency, but the bad apples are ruining the entire bushel.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Change IS coming people. The Office of Special Counsel, the OIG and the GAO have contacted members of this website and are looking at the issues (and managers)raised with a magnifying glass. I do feel compelled to point out ONE thing. We have SOME damn fine 1st line supervisors across the country. They are every bit as committed to the mission as the field Agents.They hang it out there day in and day out just like us. There are also a handful of mid level managers who know what the right thing is and do it. They do not need to be lumped in with those that obviously are self consumed "Takers". They need to be supported, respected and encouraged to continue. I just needed to remind everybody that we have some very accompleshed bosses in this agency.

I would not get my hopes up too high. Some of these agencies have been aware of this type of behavior and I have reported to OIG and Special Counsel's Office and they have blown me off. Possibly GAO may do somehing. I am hoping that some of the things that have been highlighted on this website will finally be adressed by some of these agencies. I don't want to rain on your parade. I am just saying be careful and don't get your hopes or expectations too high because you may be disappointed in the end.

[Thor God of Thunder]

It has been my experience that many of the supervisors know that those above them are inept. However, they don't want to rock the boat. They fear of getting whacked to DC or some other God for saken place, like Fargo ND. These supervisors are ones who can change ATF, but don't. These are the individuals who need to speak up! They're the ones who need to go to DOJ OIG. They're the ones who must collectivly speak to the AG and our politicians. An ordinary street agent just comes off appearing disgruntled. And if your supervisor and your KMA date has come, then it is your duty to speak out about the managers above you! For Christ sake why did you become a boss, if you didn't want to make a difference?

Now, it's time to be a leader of Men!

Well said! I could not agree with you more. The disgruntled excuse is #2 in the ATF Management Defense 101 book. I didn't know is the #1 excuse.

[Rex Roces]

It has been my experience that many of the supervisors know that those above them are inept. However, they don't want to rock the boat. They fear of getting whacked to DC or some other God for saken place, like Fargo ND. These supervisors are ones who can change ATF, but don't. These are the individuals who need to speak up! They're the ones who need to go to DOJ OIG. They're the ones who must collectivly speak to the AG and our politicians. An ordinary street agent just comes off appearing disgruntled. And if your supervisor and your KMA date has come, then it is your duty to speak out about the managers above you! For Christ sake why did you become a boss, if you didn't want to make a difference?

Now, it's time to be a leader of Men!

[Concernedsup]

As to the AC, even HQ seems to think it's broken. They had a week long meeting this week to "revise" the AC yet again!!! What's that 2-3 times in the past two years? The worst part is who they sent up to "revise" this AC. Won't mention names, and not all there are bad supervisors you had some good ones, but some have reached the peter principle in terms of management. For those who don't know what the peter principle is it basically states that you are promoted one level above your competency. On some of these that went you could say peter principle squared was applied.

[ISpy]

Doc, you are exactly right about SOME first line and mid level Supervisors. We have some truly excellent Supervisors in those ranks. From what I've seen they tend to have been on the job a long time and are at the lower levels. HMMMMMM, whats that tell us? Maybe they waited years to go into management and some that have been there for a number of years saw what was above them and did all they could to avoid playing those BS games and moving up at the expense of the troops. The ones we have to be careful of are the ones at that same level who are the weekend wonders. Odds are the latter group will just lead to more of the same that we have at the top right now. Maybe this also leads to the question of what to do with those low level, no experience Supervisors that got that way because of "Special" help when it came to the AC. That whole AC system needs to be tossed but I guess thats for another thread.

[Doc Holiday]

Change IS coming people. The Office of Special Counsel, the OIG and the GAO have contacted members of this website and are looking at the issues (and managers)raised with a magnifying glass. I do feel compelled to point out ONE thing. We have SOME damn fine 1st line supervisors across the country. They are every bit as committed to the mission as the field Agents.They hang it out there day in and day out just like us. There are also a handful of mid level managers who know what the right thing is and do it. They do not need to be lumped in with those that obviously are self consumed "Takers". They need to be supported, respected and encouraged to continue. I just needed to remind everybody that we have some very accompleshed bosses in this agency.

[Concernedsup]

Lost in Space No apologies necessary for your tone or response, it just shows the passion you have for this agency and wanting it to be better. I agree with all your points and comments. But there is always a but. I agree that we don't want to emulate the leaders we have but if this agency is going turn around people have to step up and sacrifice a little in order to change. Does that mean being rude, insubordinate or stubborn? No it's by taking the reigns slowly and showing upper management that you know what the hell you are talking about, by teaching newer agents what it is to be a more productive agent, by teaching the newer agents that they must step up also. Listen management is perfectly content with this agency being the Road Kill agency because it means lass liability. A ,lot of newer agents have broken their teeth on this. Show them that this job can be fun if you are willing to stand up and do what's right. We are not going to change the Hoovers, Chaits, Domenechs,Fords or Loos (to mention a few because the list is too long to type) of this agency. They are a lost cause. They are set in there ways. If participation rises they will do just enough to save their own skins, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, the second tier that follows doesn't really excite me either. How long will it take to change this is anybody's guess but something that I am certain of is that it will never change if, as agents, we don't start holding our leaders accountable. Until there is a united front they will never take the complaints/suggestions seriously. Until we stop attacking each other, they'll continue the status quo. What HQ doesn't realize is the utter contempt the field holds for them and what they are doing because they know they can retaliate. This site can be a tool of change. Encourage your fellow agents to join, comment, opine. This site has shown that we have brothers and sisters out their that get it and can help make a change. Unfortunately the higher you get in government the less they care about the little people. Holder doesn't give a flip about what happens at ATF, he's got bigger problems. Congress would just as well disband us than save us. So what does that leave YOU and all the others that truly care about this agency. Lost in Space thanks for your candid response and comments. keep up the fight, don't ever lay down just cause it's convenient, get out the vote!!!!!! Be safe and continue the fight.

[Doc Holiday]

Take the time to read Concerned Sups posting. If this applies to you, you just go on justifying your back room complaining and continue to let the Bullies rule our agency and let this agency be abolished because of Bureacratic paralysis. ATF agents have always stood up to the Bullies. We are currently nearing committee and/or subcommittee hearings on the state of affairs in our Agency. Now is the time to "Speak Up", (no pun intended) if you want to be heard. If an ATF Supervisor can step up, things are changing. I want us to all quit posing like ATF Agents and to get back to wreacking havoc on violators coast to coast again.

[SA FOG]

Hear! Hear!! Well said.

[Concernedsup]

I know I will probably be criticized for commenting on this but I think it needs to be said. First of all I will just say that am in management, low level, but management none the less. I read the discussions on this site, as many do, to learn about “what’s new” in the world of our dysfunctional management, to see who has been wronged by management and if I can help them in anyway and to see how management is totally missing the boat on issues. Most places I go I hear agents saying hey did you see what came out on Cleanup ATF? A lot of agents won’t come out and admit upfront they follow the site but when asked they do admit it and discuss it in groups. I saw a posting by the site administrator stating that they wanted to have 100 subscribers by a certain time. Here is where I get to my point. We have a lot of agents willing to look at the site for gossip or just to see how managers screw up but very few actually subscribe. Why don’t they? It could be for fear of being found out and possibly retaliated against. We, as agents have dropped the ball and are partly to blame, in this whole management mess. I see agents complaining that things need to change, that people have to be removed, that something needs to be done but ask yourself these questions: If things are to change who is going to change them because the ones in power aren’t going to do it; If you remove those in power who is going to take their place, just younger protégés of the old regime because none of the common sense hard working agents want to step up; that something has to be done but who’s going to do that if nobody steps up? It’s like having a corrupt politician, or just a politician that just doesn’t have your same views, you can criticize them because the 1st Amendment allows you to do that but if you don’t vote to get them out of power then all you are doing is blowing hot air and becoming part of the problem and not the solution. We are to blame. Why? Because you kept doing the right thing, doing the cases, striving on to make this a better agency. But we lacked one thing, most of us never stepped up to the plate to replace the bad ones or even worse allowed the bad ones to move up. We have great agents that, at a minimum can or would have been good supervisors. Notice I didn’t say managers. Managers administer, Supervisors lead. I understand that not everyone wants, or needs to be supervisor. We can’t have all bosses and no workers but by allowing the 7 year wonders of this agency, who have very little experience but are eager to advance to promote their own agenda, to become managers we are setting the path to failure for years to come. All the new managers are going to become are clones of the ones we have in place because it’s all about one thing, themselves and what’s in it for them with disregard to the agency and the workers. I know I am rambling but this truly bothers me. People, this problem is not going to be solved overnight. It will take years to change this mentality and the mess that has been created but if those that have the true ability to lead don’t step up then we are just going down the same path. I know most will not submit to become supervisors because, hey if you do it to soon, there is possibility of being whacked to HQ. It’s to late in your career and you wouldn’t have enough time to move up the ladder to make a difference. Stop being the citizen who criticizes his/her government but fails to vote. Stop being the neighbor who sees crime but doesn’t step up to testify or report the crime. We need some sacrifice from those who are truly willing to change this and stop talking and spouting off if you are not willing to engage in the fight. To those who have taken the fight to management to correct wrongs. I truly admire and support you because you are truly sacrificing yourself but you continue to fight to right wrongs, to expose the mayhem and try and correct the problem. To those who just criticize and do nothing but opine, I don’t have much respect for you. Like I said in the beginning, I am in management, got in the game late, but at least I am in the game. Again if you allow these seven year wonders to become first line supervisors, don’t complain when they are telling you the hard working senior agent what to do and you don’t like it. Why? Because you had a chance to step up and chose not to. So keep on criticizing without voting, you’ll be getting the same old response from upper management in 15 years. I welcome any comments, discussion, insults and questions on this. I just want to get people thinking. Hey if the only thing you do is subscribe to this website then that’s a step in the right direction. HQ will only take this seriously if they see that this site has true followers!!!!!!! Their was a program several years ago called the West Wing. On one episode there was a phrase “Get out the vote.” To those who just read this website and don’t join, I say get involved, to those that participate, I say GET OUT THE VOTE!!! Encourage your peers to join. I’ll go even farther, in my group I identified a couple of agents who I saw strong leadership potential and I encouraged them to take the AC even when they didn’t want to and I‘ve done that with others that show that same quality. This is like politics you need to recruit the strong leaders that you see around to participate, become the new blood of this agency. Again, we are to blame because we allowed the unworthy to become our leaders. Now we have to reverse that trend, not to watch idly by on the sidelines. Sorry for rambling on but I this agency as the Titanic and a guy on the ship says “hey there’s an Iceberg” and our management just states “Don’t worry we’ll get around it.” Well you all know how that went. In 23 years, I’ve never seen this agency in so much turmoil that the simple things like buying trucks with power windows and locks have been screwed up. Well that’s it and I’ll just wait for the comments. Be safe and keep up the fight.