13 replies to this topic

[abteilung]

]

A requirement for SACdom and ASACdom is the ability to lie under oath. These are the folks with the most concentrated integrity and ethics issues within the agency. It really is unfortunate!

This agency is quickly turning into this generation's version of the old INS. INS was run by liars, cheats and incompetent fools who lived by the adage, "Big Cases, Big Problems, Little Cases, Little Problems, No Cases, No Problems." As mentioned before, their concern is that we comply with LearnATF and other meaningless shit. They measure success by how many meetings they have.
And we all know what happened to INS.

[Thor God of Thunder]

]

It should not be a big shock that ATF maintains two sets of rules, one for the working agent and another for the 14's and 15's.
It also should not be a surprise that a SAC would put working agents in unneeded danger in order to further the SAC's career. Torres probably had no idea he was giving away trade secrets, since most managers in ATF are clueless about what the street agent actually does. The majority of ATF's "leadership" is interested in punching their own ticket and moving on to bigger and better things for themselves. They also seem real concerned with your management logs being updated, if your learnatf training is up to date and if your gas receipts are turned in on time. Most of the ATF managers could care less about putting criminals in jail,but they really get worked up if your shirt doesn't have a collar.

Mr. Melson, if you want to fix ATF, quit talking and start cleaning house, unless you too are just punching your ticket and moving on to bigger and better things.

A requirement for SACdom and ASACdom is the ability to lie under oath. These are the folks with the most concentrated integrity and ethics issues within the agency. It really is unfortunate!

[Snake bite]

To all: If I was unclear, let me set this straight. It WAS NOT Vido I was referring to as to media policy violation. It was L A SAC Torres. He disclosed HIGHLY secretive investigative techniques that very specifically did, can and will expose current and future agents to potential harm. He did so with his usual grandstanding fashion and openly in a major newspaper. Apparently w/o consquence, as he is still a SAC. As to Mr. Vido, his major issue is smoke and mirror management, lack of candor and lying under oath. Yes he also remains a SAC. I hope this clears this matter up. Mr. Vido is the Prince of I don't know and I don't recall. Only to be rivaled by the King of lapsing memory, newly appointed SAC Mike Gleysteen. Remember his deposition? 50+ I don't know and I don't recall related to major Bureau policies. That's who we want for a SAC. Or do we?

It should not be a big shock that ATF maintains two sets of rules, one for the working agent and another for the 14's and 15's.
It also should not be a surprise that a SAC would put working agents in unneeded danger in order to further the SAC's career. Torres probably had no idea he was giving away trade secrets, since most managers in ATF are clueless about what the street agent actually does. The majority of ATF's "leadership" is interested in punching their own ticket and moving on to bigger and better things for themselves. They also seem real concerned with your management logs being updated, if your learnatf training is up to date and if your gas receipts are turned in on time. Most of the ATF managers could care less about putting criminals in jail,but they really get worked up if your shirt doesn't have a collar.

Mr. Melson, if you want to fix ATF, quit talking and start cleaning house, unless you too are just punching your ticket and moving on to bigger and better things.

[Doc Holiday]

To all: If I was unclear, let me set this straight. It WAS NOT Vido I was referring to as to media policy violation. It was L A SAC Torres. He disclosed HIGHLY secretive investigative techniques that very specifically did, can and will expose current and future agents to potential harm. He did so with his usual grandstanding fashion and openly in a major newspaper. Apparently w/o consquence, as he is still a SAC. As to Mr. Vido, his major issue is smoke and mirror management, lack of candor and lying under oath. Yes he also remains a SAC. I hope this clears this matter up. Mr. Vido is the Prince of I don't know and I don't recall. Only to be rivaled by the King of lapsing memory, newly appointed SAC Mike Gleysteen. Remember his deposition? 50+ I don't know and I don't recall related to major Bureau policies. That's who we want for a SAC. Or do we?

[Thor God of Thunder]

I have to speak up, no pun intended. I have had the privalage and honor to work for and beside true legends of this agency. And there are some with that potential out there still. We have to focus back on the mission. We cant have SACs asleep at the wheel and using the "ASAC should run the division to prepare to be a SAC" mentality. Thats a cop out Mr. Vido. If you are not worthy of command, step down. Mr. Martin, dont sit back and watch the Gleysteens destroy the moral and productivity of your field divisions. Mr. Torres, if you are more concerned about padding your resume' than running and supporting a division, go to Universal studios and beg a job. Youve been courting Hollywood for years. Snake Bite and Jumper, why would you ignore the violation of ATFs media policy and aggregious OPSEC violation of grandstanding on the Polygraph disclosure. Really Mr. Toores, have you been out of the field so long that you dont know or care that those type of disclosures GET AGENTS KILLED. Oh thats right, you are more concerned with promoting the new ATF association with possible self promoting intents. Why did you guys undermine the existing ATFAR organization. Never mind, thats rhetorical. It wasnt yours and you werent in charge. And hows the municipal tracking tool of COMSTAT working for a FEDERAL INVESTIGATIVE agency? Have you had an original thought in years? Time to go. You and your cronies have run this agency about as far into the ground as WE will allow. Once Again Mr. Melson, "We are Speaking Up". We are "A" political and are not really concerned about your beltway career mentality. We catch badguys for food.

No original thought or idea in 20 years, the names are changed to protect the guilty!!

[Snake bite]

Doc, help me out, did I miss something? You posted "Snake Bite and Jumper, why would you ignore the violation of ATFs media policy and aggregious OPSEC violation of grandstanding on the Polygraph disclosure." If this information would help get rid of Vido and his puppet, I'm interested.

[Doc Holiday]

I have to speak up, no pun intended. I have had the privalage and honor to work for and beside true legends of this agency. And there are some with that potential out there still. We have to focus back on the mission. We cant have SACs asleep at the wheel and using the "ASAC should run the division to prepare to be a SAC" mentality. Thats a cop out Mr. Vido. If you are not worthy of command, step down. Mr. Martin, dont sit back and watch the Gleysteens destroy the moral and productivity of your field divisions. Mr. Torres, if you are more concerned about padding your resume' than running and supporting a division, go to Universal studios and beg a job. Youve been courting Hollywood for years. Snake Bite and Jumper, why would you ignore the violation of ATFs media policy and aggregious OPSEC violation of grandstanding on the Polygraph disclosure. Really Mr. Toores, have you been out of the field so long that you dont know or care that those type of disclosures GET AGENTS KILLED. Oh thats right, you are more concerned with promoting the new ATF association with possible self promoting intents. Why did you guys undermine the existing ATFAR organization. Never mind, thats rhetorical. It wasnt yours and you werent in charge. And hows the municipal tracking tool of COMSTAT working for a FEDERAL INVESTIGATIVE agency? Have you had an original thought in years? Time to go. You and your cronies have run this agency about as far into the ground as WE will allow. Once Again Mr. Melson, "We are Speaking Up". We are "A" political and are not really concerned about your beltway career mentality. We catch badguys for food.

[Snake bite]

After five minutes of laughing, I finally composed myself enough to respond. First of all, I like the idea of ATF’s RAC's, SAC's and ASAC's receiving a true reality check. The problem is most of the leaders in ATF took the three year wonder boy, or wonder girl approach to career progression. As a result, the closest that most of ATF’s 14’s and 15’s have concerning how to run a criminal investigation are the experiences they had at FLETC in CI school. I hate to paint all 14’s and 15’s with such a broad brush. I am not referring to the men and women who put in their time and earned the respect of their peers by working good solid cases before trying to have a positive impact on the leadership of ATF. The sad, sad truth is that these types of quality leaders who stand up for their people and are knowledgeable in guiding true criminal investigations are few and far between. So, to those of you who have earned your position, I am not referring to you. As a matter of fact, I really wished I worked for you. Unfortunately, in the Louisville Field Division, the majority of our leaders are self centered, spineless, politically motivated, forked tongued, self serving, non-law enforcement oriented 14’s and 15’s, especially our 15’s.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Before this thread expired, I was hoping someone who was there would expound upon this.

I was not in New Orleans for Katrina but have heard from many people who were there. The only "Leader" that was in New Orleans after the storm is now an ASAC in Seattle. Chait did not show back up for several weeks as he holed up in a nice air conditioned room in Houston. Maybe he slept in that day at management school for the "Lead by Example" class. ASAC Browning was to be the highest on the chain of command on scene and will forever go down in ATF history for his famous command decision. I am told that the day after the storm and as the City began to flood, ASAC Browning told a group of about 20 Agents that they were forbidden to go down into to the City of New Oreleans as it was deemed "Too Dangerous." This statement was to have taken place at an ATF offsite location North of the City. Give me a break, "Too Dangerous" for ATF Agents? I can only imagine as every reserve police officer and SPCA dogcatcher descended upon the City to help in time of National Crisis, how those Agents must have felt. Although rescue work is not the bureau's primary mission there comes a time when right from wrong has to take the prevailing hand and human decency prevails. He and only he has to go to bed at night thinking about all those people who died and could have been saved had he allowed his team of Agents to try and do what is right. Thankfully, he is no longer there!

ASAC Lowery was not in New Orleans for the storm and evacuated with his family. I am told that as soon as the storm passed he immediately returned with several Uhaul trucks filled with well needed equipment and supplies for his people. Did I mention that Chait is still in Houston running the show from an air conditioned hotel room. Lowery was then sent to Baton Rouge to head up the Command Post.

Rumors after the storm indicate that Chait filed some sort of after action report to HQ and that he never let Browning or Lowery have any input or review before submission. No one will ever know for sure.

Lowrey is a stand up guy! I don't blame him for taking care of his family first under those circumstances and returning to lend a hand. This is the type of guy he is. For those that did not do the right thing...and watched on CNN as people died. I have little if no respect for them. Of course, Chait got all of the credit for ATF's response like Domenech did during 911 in NY just because they were the SACs, at that time. This is called " tragedy promotion." This usually happens if you are the manager of an office during a tragedy. You are guaranteed to get promoted to the next level. There have been a lot of tragedy promotions... Check it out!

[Doc Holiday]

Final thought: Not too many years ago, the United States Marine Corps Commandant recognized that the Corps readiness had diminished for whatever reason. Short version, his plan was to remind the leadership that each and every Marine is first and foremost a Rifleman. He wandered throughout his command asking each and every Marine, "When was the last time you were in the bush". If their answer was boot camp sir, he told them "Pack your trash" and get ready to deploy with the REAL Marines. Mr. Melson, how about this? How about polling each and every SA manager and ask "When was the last time you went thru a door, sat on a surveillance or covered a UC deal. If their answer is 5 or more years. MAKE THEM. Dump the SES perk trips to Apple computer or some command and control school and make them sit hungry, wet and tired with us for a few weeks. Let them see how their cowardly and politically motivated decisions affect and diminish the mission.

[Doc Holiday]

If any of this occurred, I am ashamed. I came to this agency because we run TOWARD the gunfire. When did politics and diplomacy replace duty and honor? Unfortunately, none of the specific bosses mentioned here have had a long or illustrious career record of thinking outside the box, extreme integrity or courage. I know how those agents felt because Im a agent. Not so long ago, a supervisor like Ron Mitchell and many others, would have taking that team into the danger zone and dare Browning to challenge him. Thats the ATF I will always love.

[jfd14]

Before this thread expired, I was hoping someone who was there would expound upon this. I was not in New Orleans for Katrina but have heard from many people who were there. The only "Leader" that was in New Orleans after the storm is now an ASAC in Seattle. Chait did not show back up for several weeks as he holed up in a nice air conditioned room in Houston. Maybe he slept in that day at management school for the "Lead by Example" class. ASAC Browning was to be the highest on the chain of command on scene and will forever go down in ATF history for his famous command decision. I am told that the day after the storm and as the City began to flood, ASAC Browning told a group of about 20 Agents that they were forbidden to go down into to the City of New Oreleans as it was deemed "Too Dangerous." This statement was to have taken place at an ATF offsite location North of the City. Give me a break, "Too Dangerous" for ATF Agents? I can only imagine as every reserve police officer and SPCA dogcatcher descended upon the City to help in time of National Crisis, how those Agents must have felt. Although rescue work is not the bureau's primary mission there comes a time when right from wrong has to take the prevailing hand and human decency prevails. He and only he has to go to bed at night thinking about all those people who died and could have been saved had he allowed his team of Agents to try and do what is right. Thankfully, he is no longer there! ASAC Lowery was not in New Orleans for the storm and evacuated with his family. I am told that as soon as the storm passed he immediately returned with several Uhaul trucks filled with well needed equipment and supplies for his people. Did I mention that Chait is still in Houston running the show from an air conditioned hotel room. Lowery was then sent to Baton Rouge to head up the Command Post. Rumors after the storm indicate that Chait filed some sort of after action report to HQ and that he never let Browning or Lowery have any input or review before submission. No one will ever know for sure.

[Doc Holiday]

Does anyone know the details of our fearless (OR FEARFUL) leader abandoning his post during the Hurricane Katrina relief efforts? Not only is this appalling, but it needs to be reported and illuminated if it is true.