[Doc Holiday]

Hopefully ATF will be held to the same standard as a county municipality. Maybe that will then stop Ms. Loos and Chief counsels shenanigans. Its a crying shame that the agency has to be publicly embarassed to be made to do the right thing. Are we the only ones that care about saving this sinking ship? Why isnt Mr. Holder or Mr. Melson taking charge and stopping the insanity? We are speaking up Mr. Melson.

[Corny]

News release on the law wire regarding the legal team that is representing ATF Special Agent Jay Dobyns during his lawsuit against ATF. There is no decimal point in there, that is in millions!

PHOENIX, ARIZONA-BASED BAIRD WILLIAMS & GREER, LLP, WINS $54 MILLION VERDICT
Arizona-based RCS Capital Development to Receive $54,389,114 from A.B.C. Learning Centres Limited of Australia

PHOENIX, Arizona (May 19, 2010) — Phoenix-based Baird Williams & Greer, LLP, (www.bwglaw.net) law firm announced today a Maricopa County Superior Court jury verdict in the amount of $54,398,114 for its client, Arizona-based RCS Capital Development, against Australian-based A.B.C. Learning Centres Limited. The lawsuit arose out of a breach of contract by A.B.C.’s United States subsidiary with RCS for the development of child care centers in Arizona.

[Doc Holiday]

Does this now mean that the agency is going to sue Vanessa Mclemore for damaging the Bureau for using our precious resources for personal gain? Will Mr. Carter and Mr. Hoover be made to pay back the money they KNOWINGLY and intentionally wasted in frivilous attacks against whitleblowers? Will Mr. Newell and Martin be sued to recover the abusive waste of taxpayer funds for their unwarranted personnell actions? I'll go out on a limb and guess that they will have NO accountability for their unlawful abuses. Maybe they will make Mr. Domenech pay back his settlement directly to the scores of agents he damaged while walking around like Napolean.

[Doc Holiday]

Can someone explain the logic in ATF burning down one of their legends. That almost never turns out good. Alot of us Love Jay and will not stand by and watch ATF try to burn one of our own down. Counter sue? Really? Try this Billy, and Mr. Melson, you broke it you fix it again. Fire SAC Newell and Gillete for deriliction of duty, apoligize to Jay and make this right. You are embarrasing yourselves, and really pissing off those of us who do the job. That too almost never works out well. We are speaking up Mr. Melson, Still waiting.

[Retired and loving it]

Jumper, on 12 February 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

53.6 million (yes million) AOL users were exposed to the Dobyns lawsuit story today on AOL.news!

Also, there was a post about Dobyns on govexec.com under a topic dealing with working for the Fed Gov. The article was on that old crap of how cushy the Fed jobs are. The poster told readers to look at the AOL article and then judge for themselves what a cake walk he has had as a Fed employee.

Good luck to Jay.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Wiseman is someone who probably never worked undercover and does not know what it is like to fit in and make split second decisions so that you prove your case, keep your butt alive, and still fit into the world of these criminals that we are trying to keep the citizens of the United States safe from. It is a fine balancing act that some do better than others. However, ATF Defense 101, under the chapter entitled "Bad Deals That Can Jam Management/Supervisors", the first rule is "Blame the Undercover". Management and Supervisors screw up and they want to blame the undercover for a deal gone wrong that they authorized. This is what happened in Waco and this is what is happening with Jay Dobyns. History repeats itself but Jay is not going down without a fight and I don't blame him. Keep putting your story out there Jay!

[abteilung]

I'm not looking to pile on Wiseman, but when he says how bad supervisors were once bad agents, then that begs the question: How did they become supervisors?
Morally bankrupt people shouldn't be getting promoted. When a married case agent is sleeping with the AUSA who is assigned to handle all his cases, should he get promoted to RAC and then ASAC?
Incompetent people shouldn't be getting promoted and put in positions to supervise, and judge, competent agents. My former supervisor, Mr. One-Case, should never been allowed into managerial ranks, but thanks to his bloodline, he's been a DOO and a RAC. How about actually locking up the bad guys first? Sure, those who can, do, and those who can't, teach, but those who can't shouldn't be supervising.
There are problems with this agency that go beyond the experiences of one agent. However, let's no diminish what happened to one agent because it diminishes us all. If you think that this website should be about more than Jay Dobyns, then step up and tell the rest of us what works with ATF and what doesn't work. And if you think the problem starts with bad agents, then why are we hiring bad agents?

I do know this, as a lowly GS-13, I'm not deciding who gets hired. And probably 99% of the people who contribute to this site don't make those decisions either. We're not the cause of the problem, but we all want to be part of the solution.

[Jumper]

53.6 million (yes million) AOL users were exposed to the Dobyns lawsuit story today on AOL.news!

[Lips]

Sorry Wiseman (if your still snooping around) no one seems to be taking your advise to let this go. When Wiseman has to poor mouth the resume of an agent like Jay Dobyns to make his work product appear more significant then he does nothing more than display is insecurity for all to see. I guess all of the murders, rapists, drug dealers, gun runners, home invastion crews and murder for hire schemes Dobyns wrecked, not just during Operation Black Biscuit but over 20 plus years of service, must all have been hillbillies who can't afford teeth. They may not rate up to Wiseman's view of his Armed Career Criminal cases but I promise you Jay has had more than his fair share of those also.

Wiseman, you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own set of facts.

http://www.aolnews.c...angels/19355185

Agent Sues ATF for Trouble With Hells Angels

WASHINGTON (Feb. 12) -- From one vantage point, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent Jay Dobyns still worries about the Hells Angels coming after him. From another, it's his employer he's more concerned about.

Dobyns infiltrated the Hells Angels from 2001 to 2003 in Arizona and wrote a New York Times best-seller about it last year. But now he's locked in major legal fisticuffs with the ATF.

A $4 million lawsuit filed by the 23-year ATF veteran says the agency failed to abide by a 2007 written contract to protect him and his wife and two children against death threats from the Hells Angels. The suit, unfolding now in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, also says the agency failed to stop subjecting him to a hostile work environment for complaining about his safety.


"I have concern for my life," said ATF Special Agent Jay Dobyns, who wrote a best-selling book about his experiences working undercover in the notorious biker gang Hells Angels.

In August 2008, Dobyns' Tucson, Ariz., home burned to the ground in an apparent arson. Two months later, he filed the breach of contract lawsuit. He currently lives out West with his family and works for the ATF as a program manager in the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network.

"I honestly think at this point ATF has no idea how to handle threats against employees," the 48-year-old agent said in a phone interview with AOL News. "Their solution is to write a check and transfer the agent."

"I've been harassed since I voiced a complaint with the agency that they were ignoring their obligations" to protect him and his family, he said.

On Jan. 15, Judge Francis Allegra ruled that the breach-of-contract case should move forward. The Justice Department and the ATF filed a counterclaim two weeks later saying it was Dobyns, not the government, who was in violation of the contract and asking that the case be dismissed.

The counterclaim said Dobyns had violated agency rules by failing to get permission before he published a book in 2009, "No Angel: My Harrowing Undercover Journey to the Inner Circle of the Hells Angels," and signed movie rights with MGM. The Justice Department has asked the judge to rule that Dobyns must forfeit all the proceeds from his outside projects to the government.

Dobyns insists he had been given approval.

The ATF declined comment. A Justice Department spokeswoman said today that the department had no comment.

The fall from hero to heel in the ATF came in measured steps. In 2001, Dobyns, with shaved head and a generous stream of tattoos, went deep undercover -- meaning he stayed in character 24/7 and didn't go home at the end of the day. He infiltrated the Hells Angels in what was called "Operation Black Biscuit."

"I wanted to do it," he recalled. "No one held a gun to my head. I jumped at the job."

From 2001 to 2003, he barely saw his wife and two children. Every day was frightening, he said.

"Absolutely. You have never-ending paranoia: 'Have I made a mistake that I'm not even aware of?' These are violent dudes, and if they find out that you've betrayed them, they're going to put a box cutter to your throat and that's the end of that."

The gang was about to make him an official member, he said, after he and a colleague staged a fake murder of a rival bike gang member. Instead, the probe ended with indictments of more than a dozen Hells Angels. The charges ranged from murder to rape.

The prosecution was less successful. Some pleaded guilty, and lesser sentences were handed down. In some cases, the charges were dismissed altogether. Dobyns said internal disputes between prosecutors and the ATF over presenting evidence and exposing informants weakened the case.

After coming out of the deep undercover role, Dobyns said he became the ATF's "golden boy" for his heroic work. But when he started complaining about the ATF's lax response to threats, he suddenly became a malcontent and traitor.

The first reported threat came in 2004, according to his lawsuit, when a Hells Angel member in Tucson saw him on the street and said that he knew where Dobyns lived, that he had a wife and kids and that he was "going to get hurt."

The same year, the suit says, a confidential source had a cellmate in Arizona, a Hells Angel whom Dobyns had put away, who wanted to murder Dobyns. In another instance, Dobyns said, prison officials intercepted a letter from a gang member who said he wanted to rape Dobyns' wife and make Dobyns watch the videotape before he killed him.

Dobyns wanted the ATF to act, but he said the agency told him not to worry and that the man was behind bars.

"ATF didn't not only knock on the guy's jail bars, they ignored it," he said. "Their response to me was 'Don't worry about it, this guy is locked up.'"

Dobyns said his reaction was "Are you kidding me? This guy has connections on the outside."

By contrast, he said, the FBI would send someone to top mob guys after undercover agents were done with a case and say, "Those are our guys. They're hands off. They better not receive a call at the house."

Dobyns filed grievances internally, complaining of ATF's lax response to the threats. He said the government moved him four times. He moved an additional seven times with his family at his own expense, "hoping to break the paper trail as to where I was at."

Allegra, in his January ruling, noted that the Office of Inspector General at the Justice Department "opined that ATF should have taken threats against Agent Dobyns and his family 'more seriously'" and that the agency "needlessly" delayed responding to them.

In 2007, ATF entered into a contract with Dobyns that promised to provide better protection and a hostile-free environment. It also agreed to give him $373,000 for all his troubles.

The next year, his Tucson home burned down at 3 a.m. one August night. His family escaped unharmed. He was in Phoenix at the time. In his suit, he says the ATF took over the case from the local sheriff's department, but it did hardly anything before turning over the matter to the FBI.

Dobyns is quite certain it was the work of the Hells Angels. Since then, he said, he hasn't received any real threats.

"I have concern for my life," he said. "I've seen firsthand the violence and intimidation. I lived with it. I do not underestimate them. I don't slough them off. But if I allow them to have me live in fear, then they've won. Then I'm Osama bin Laden living in the cave."

As for his $4 million lawsuit, he said, "There's not enough money in ATF's budget to repay me for how my family has suffered."

[Goldfish]

Of course I'm a day late responding to "Fatuousman" (I'm sorry...I mean "Wiseman's") response to this discussion before he requested that his account be canceled. It's always been interesting to me how some people can dish it out but just not take it. I'm sure he is still cruising this website under an anonymous account.

Mr. Wiseman's response is a running contradiction of words. Does Wiseman like "Jay-bird" (good use of his nickname to make it look like they are friends)? It doesn't seem like he does like him because in the next sentence he refers to him as Mr. Undercover (I'm pretty sure his last name is Dobyns) and says he likes to brag about his undercover adventures. That is not the Agent Dobyns I know but since Wiseman is on a nickname basis with him I guess I don't know anything.

Mr. Wiseman needs to understand that the only way that the "blunders that could or should have been avoided" are fixed is if those who are mistreated have to courage to stand up and fight for what is right. These cases mentioned on this website naming the unethical and unlawful treatment of agents are not solely for the promotion of those individual agents but for changing what is wrong with this agency and providing all agents the security that the mistreatment won't happen to them in the future.

Lastly, if Mr. Wiseman actually is "locking up 5 armed career criminals" then he deserves a pat on the the back and a job well done. However, "road kill", adopted and PSN cases don't count.

[CUATF Webmaster]

UPDATE:

In response to my comments re: his post slamming SA Dobyns (see below), Mr. "Wiseman" sent me (the CUATF Webmaster) several indignant emails accusing me, among other things, of violating his "First Amendment rights". Apparently, such "rights" are a one-way street with that guy. He also asked to have his account canceled and I have graciously complied.

The thing is, this is a privately funded and operated website, and we (the people shelling out the cash and the effort) make the rules, which include explicit prohibitions against personal attacks and name-calling. Moreover, anyone who publicly insults and
impugns my good friend and brother Jay Dobyns (or anyone else I respect) using my web system, will find their next login attempt to be, shall we say, "unsuccessful".

And by the way, if you're going to blather about the First Amendment to someone who carries around and routinely reads a copy of the U.S. Constitution (albeit in Blackberry eBook format nowadays):

• Actually read it first, and try to comprehend what it truly guarantees. You will note that it does not afford the "right" to say whatever you please on a privately-owned message board;
• Go join a message board where the Webmaster does not have the openly disclosed and unrestricted power to comment upon, edit, delete or ban any content or user for any reason he deems appropriate.

If "Wiseman" is actually an ATF employee or even an Agent (as he implied throughout his post), it's quite disturbing that someone carrying a badge and a gun, particularly at the federal level, is so patently ignorant as to the basic tenants of our most fundamental laws. Oh wait...an ASAC, perhaps? Just kidding! (sorta)

[Cool Hand]

Wiseman:
Ultimately I hear what you are saying. In my opinion, CleanupATF is not the "Agent X" or "Agent Y" website. Some have given us extreme examples of management abuse within this organization--in the open--and I admire their courage. I suggest we look at ALL of the examples of mismanagement in this organization and then the pattern will be obvious. Once we prosecute systemic abuse, we can get away from trashing contributors who we claim we "like" or "don't like".

A wiser man once offered that you should never love or hate an organization because it is a merely an institution led by people...and it has no capacity to love or hate you back. Therefore I suggest we stay focused on reforming leadership practices within our organization in the interest of a worthy mission and the good people risking their lives to enforce an important body of laws. Remember the warrior expression "There are no bad followers, only bad leaders". Once you have solid, high integrity leadership, enforcing discipline is just a matter of good housekeeping.

[CUATF Webmaster]

wiseman, on 09 February 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

You need to give it a rest regarding Dobyns. For too long, ATF has allowed agents who work "undercover" to have free reign to conduct investigations on their own terms often to their own detriment. The librarys are full of "I hate ATF books" blaming management for blunders that could or should have been avoided. Of course the agent is never at fault, just ask them. Not that we have our share of mindless managers but they were agents first. Probably mindless prior to management. If ATF is guilty of anything, its allowing a proactive agent, who makes cases, the latitude to broaden his/her investigation in the name of making more defendants. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing? Now take an agent who takes their undercover role to the next level to fulfill their ultimate goal of getting over on someone and you've just identified a weakness in the ATF culture. The agent exploiting his undercover role and ATF's desire to make proactive cases. Sounds like money to me.

Now I like Jay-bird but the next time you hear your Mr. Undercover bragging about his undercover secret adventures, remember this: While Mr. Undercover is buying meth from junkie hillbillies who can't afford teeth, remind yourself that for every one of these hillbillies, some agents are locking up 5 armed career criminals. Now, that's what we're supposed to be doing.

"Wiseman" (that's a rather arrogant screen name, dontcha think?),

First, thank you for setting all the rest of us straight about what we "need to do". Secondly, your assertion that Jay Dobyns' UC cases all (or even mostly) involved "penny ante" stuff (e.g., "...buying meth from junkie hillbillies who can't afford teeth...") is proof-positive that you do not know what you're talking about. Ever hear of "Operation Black Biscuit"? Ever hear of the Hells Angels, the largest and most notorious biker gang on the planet? Most of them can afford the very best dental work that meth money can buy. It is also a publicly documented fact that there are a large number of extremely violent, world-class predators and psychopaths wearing orange suits these days because of UC ops in which Jay Dobyns played a lead or significant role. Even if this were not the truth, the "importance" of cases that Dobyns (or anyone else) has worked is utterly irrelevant to the purpose of this website, which is, as the name plainly states, to clean up ATF.

Moreover, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks of Dobyns, there can be no question that ATF management's treatment of him is one of the most egregiously unethical, unlawful and thoroughly indefensible examples of official abuse and misconduct ever documented. Don't take my word for it...read the official conclusions of several impartial government watchdog agencies. The original settlement that ATF reached (and flagrantly breached) with Dobyns, while not explicit in this regard, also strongly indicates that his claims against them were at least largely righteous. And that is what this website is truly about...trying to force ATF management to stop committing criminal acts, both against its own and the taxpayers who fund its existence. Dobyns is just a well-known point man for a large number of ATF employees who are still getting hosed everyday, which adversely affects the Bureau's mission in a number of significant ways. So, there's no need to "give the Jay Dobyns" stuff a rest", despite your pontifications.

You are (consistent with the rules of this message board), entitled to your opinion, but not your own "facts". It's also OK to post irrelevant opinions to some degree. However, yours constitutes a thinly-veiled personal attack (complete with sarcastic name-calling; i.e., "Mr. Undercover"), which is specifically prohibited by the rules you agreed to when you registered. We will nevertheless allow your rant to remain, primarily to show everyone else what a (poorly) hidden agenda looks like.

But........take another personal shot in a similar manner, and you are outta here.

[wiseman]

You need to give it a rest regarding Dobyns. For too long, ATF has allowed agents who work "undercover" to have free reign to conduct investigations on their own terms often to their own detriment. The librarys are full of "I hate ATF books" blaming management for blunders that could or should have been avoided. Of course the agent is never at fault, just ask them. Not that we have our share of mindless managers but they were agents first. Probably mindless prior to management. If ATF is guilty of anything, its allowing a proactive agent, who makes cases, the latitude to broaden his/her investigation in the name of making more defendants. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing? Now take an agent who takes their undercover role to the next level to fulfill their ultimate goal of getting over on someone and you've just identified a weakness in the ATF culture. The agent exploiting his undercover role and ATF's desire to make proactive cases. Sounds like money to me.

Now I like Jay-bird but the next time you hear your Mr. Undercover bragging about his undercover secret adventures, remember this: While Mr. Undercover is buying meth from junkie hillbillies who can't afford teeth, remind yourself that for every one of these hillbillies, some agents are locking up 5 armed career criminals. Now, that's what we're supposed to be doing.

[microscope]

This is a quick public link to the Judges ruling in Dobyns v. U.S. http://www.scribd.co...635-0-14826-1-1

[Simple Man]

Dear CleanUpATF Webmaster,

Cooler heads always prevail. I agree and will abide by your admonishment. I appologize for the less than polite characterizations. I will offer this explanation. ATF has many of us flat out pissed off. A pissed off ATF Agent is not to be trifled with. Dozens or hundreds of pissed off agents create quite an issue. This website in itself pisses me off. Not the site per se but the fact that it needed to be stood up in order to attain some self-policing within our agency. Our leadership has absolutely no means left to discipline themselves. We are angry and frustrated by the lack of concern our leaders have for the conditions within ATF that they have created. While the house is burning down (no offense intended to Jay) they lock the door and travel off to the Shot Show in Las Vegas or the Super Bowl in Miami or wherever the next fun boondoggle might be while those locked inside suffer. I believe the reason why the Carters, McLemore's, Chase's, Bouchard's and Truscotts of ATF show no concern is because they know we are going down and their own focus is on securing their personal post-ATF employment. Do any of us think that Hoover, Ford, Logan, Martin, Domenech, Chait and the rest of them are not fully prepared to cut and run leaving us holding the abortion of an agency they have created? We need to be broken down before we can rise again. I will hang around for the destruction just to be a part of the resurection. Congress must step in. They are the only body left that can accomplish the dirty job that needs to be done of cleaning house.

ATF management has survived for its lifetime with a divide and conquer stratagy. Now through this website employees are saying - did you read that? -that happened to me - that happened to me - that happened to me. A network of information has been established for the very first time for us to all compare notes. It is adding up and in most all of the individual situations there is a common denominator of abuse by the same managers and the same attorneys making the same mistakes and using the same deceitful tactics.

Respectfully sent to every ATF employee regardless of your level or title who has a desire to see ATF survive and improve,

LostInSpace

[Hiram A]

I have been retaliated against by Eleaner Loos, Chief Counsel's Office and others in ATF, as recently as May 2009.

If ever my testimony is needed, count me in and please let me know.

Thanks,

Hiram

[CUATF Webmaster]

Two Things:

• Whatever you might think about Jay Dobyns and his battle against ATF abuse, there can be no question that the man has more than paid his dues during 20+ years of UC ops. The guy got shot through the lungs at point-blank range before receiving his first paycheck, for Pete's sake, and jumped right back on the horse as soon as he could walk. He's given the Bureau not just decades of sacrifice, but buckets of blood, and they repaid him with a big, fat "Screw you and your family" the moment he challenged management's malfeasance and incompetence. Furthermore, let there be no doubt that if ATF can screw over Jay and his completely innocent family as horrendously, inexcusably and unlawfully as they have, they can and will do it to any of the rest of us at the drop of a hat if it suits their self-preserving whims. So, make no mistake...this is not just "Dobyns against ATF management". On the contrary...this is about standing up to dishonesty, unethical conduct, a systemic tendency to prefer totalitarian, CYA-driven management that has no place in modern law enforcement, and demanding that our government, its agencies, and their leadership, live up to the basic standards to which they are rightfully accountable.
• Let's try to keep the rhetoric reasonable and professional. Words like "scumbag" and "scab" (while admittedly richly descriptive), are inflammatory to a degree that might diminish the credibility and positive impact that this website is intended to have, and is, in fact, increasingly accomplishing. We have an ever-increasing number of eyes on this site at the moment, many of them highly influential...people who have the horsepower to force genuine, meaningful change upon ATF. Please...let's not turn them off with lowbrow name-calling, etc.

Thanks very much for your participation and support in this noble cause.

[Simple Man]

Hey ATF, you still think that no one is paying attention to what a bunch of scumbags you are? This posting is closing in on 2000 viewings and 500 downloads of the legal document. You blew it. You screwed over a good man and worse his wife and kids and everyone can see it. If you'd put me and my family through this there would not be enough money in the treasury to even begin to make it right. You are a bunch of scabs and I for one am happy to see that everyone is watching and downloading to see how dirty you guys really are.

[Jumper]

What kind of dirt does Loos have on these guys? Loos is the ATF Director. Don't kid yourself, she calls the shots here. She knows where all the skeletons are and every criminal act that she defended on behalf of ATF. She owns all of the dirty bosses. She knows it and they know it and they just leave her alone because she can burn every one of them down. When is ATF just going to clean house and get rid of the people who are routinely the source of our problems.