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#1251 Guest_Corny_*

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 05:16 PM

They'll just do what they do - duck and run. Lie, cover-up, avoid the truth at all costs, have big momma jump in and fight their fights for them. Now the stratagy appears to be the counter-suit tactic. Wait till Congress gets a load of what is going on here. An ATF manager retaliates against an employee and when the employee complains ATF counter-sues. One reprisal is not enough apparently. They are now doubling up. The Senators who sponsored the No Fear Act need to have this brought to their immidiate attention. I bet when Melson is called to hearing he won't know or doesn't recall. That's if he has the stones to face up and answer questions at all. Better yet he'll issue a written statement saying all is well, everyone is happy and productive, things have never been better and all the other con games they run on Congress and the media to get the heat off. The clock is ticking on all you guys who abused people in the field and got away with for years. Better get those resume's ready.

#1252 Doc Holiday

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 03:53 PM

Does anyone know if there was ever any disciplinary action handed down to Horace for lying to IA about his towed vehicle from a strip club? If not, why not? Did Crenshaw cover that up too? Is that why he was demoted 2 levels? Or was it fraudulent travel voiuchers for booty calls at Glynco or having affairs with the clerical staff? Why is he still a SAC and why wasn't he prosecuted or disciplined? Same reason Potter and Nichols get a pass for buying $50000 Cadi's. Are there any rules that apply to these guys? If I was Gillette, I'd be filing sooooooo quick based on disparity of treatment. Sidenote: When asked a direct question, ATF Atty western field division was adiment that their is no real difference between lying and lack of candor as it relates to Giglio and Henthron. I would disagree and so would newly appointed SAC Richardson. Of course they changed the table of penalties right after the OSC found Marvin to have repeatedly lie (I mean lack candor). Can't wait to see this standard applied when Marv has to testify in Admin hearings etc etc.

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 08:36 AM

Is it true that after SAC Horace got busted out for having his car towed from the topless bar the ATF New Jersey executives retaliated against the agent that they thought gave Horace up, only the agent they attacked was the wrong one? Can you spell l-a-w-s-u-i-t? Who does Horace have nude pictures of and how does he continually crash and survive? And, as far as Pearce or any other ATF manager countersuing an agent that grieves them... Go ahead. And when you lose the grievance and ATF pays off on your behalf then you can pay out of your own pocket the legal fees you cost the grieving agent and open yourself up to a whistleblower suit. Do you guys really think we are intimidated? Do you think that you scare us?

#1254 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 05:27 PM

Mr. Pearce equates EEO complaints as an indictment of being a racist. It is reported that he made the statement "What do they think we are running here? The Klu Klux Klan?" WTF?? Are you?
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#1255 Doc Holiday

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 02:36 AM

Mr. Pearce should tread lightly as he already dodged one bullet after having been found to have retaliated against an Agent and to have lacked condor in the Vanessa Mclemore debacle.

#1256 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 04:42 AM

I wanted to bring some sunshine to the East Coast and provide you the latest information via the Grapvine!

  • Atlanta

I understand an ASAC (Pearce)had a nuclear meltdown the other day and was hopping mad because an employee filed an EEO complaint. This ASAC made statements that he would file a countersuit against employees, who file eeo complaints. The funny thing is that the EEO complaint was not even against him. It was against the other ASAC (Sweetow). I guess he is feeling the heat too since he has had a couple of complaints filed against him recently the Atlanta Field Division.

  • Boston

There is a Special Agent previously out of New York, who has not qualified with his firearm in two years and is currently assigned to Boston. Why did management in New York protect this guy? Who is he related to or have dirt on that they did not take care of business and get rid of him?

  • Oklahoma


There was a Special Agent in Tulsa,OK arrested for money laundering and narcotics. Who was this low life's supervisor that did not catch this guy sooner?? How about the SAC and ASAC? The SAC, ASAC and supervisor probably could not recognize what he was doing due to the fact that they probably never worked a real case.

Investigation continues...
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#1257 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:40 AM

This article from Septembr 2009 describe the employees on this site as disgruntled. I am not disgruntled. I am plain fed up and pissed off about this mess!

Media Silent on ATF Corruption Charges

The bosses should be ashamed!
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Posted 19 April 2010 - 10:00 AM

I have been following the actions and inactions of "ATF in Wonderland" and its players through my glass portal for several years now. I made it a point to research and familiarize myself with all of the issues and materials presented on CUATF from its inception, as well as information I have been able to garner for myself. The past and present actions and decisions of ATF upper management and its legal representatives towards ATF's own field agents were and still are unethical, nothing less than criminal. The myriad instances of retaliation, vendetta, career destruction, unwillingness to backstop its own agents and their families, and perjury under oath in an effort to cover their own stink and secure their own careers angers and sickens me as a citizen and former law enforcement representative. I was personal witness to several ATF upper level supervisors, investigative agents, and legal team pervert their testimony and perjure themselves under oath, in an attempt to cover their actions, assuming, I suppose, that none of us in the courtroom, judge included, had the accuity to see through their smoke and mirrors. Actions still pending on this one!! To my point!! To you Valkyrie, Doc, Thor, Simple Man, Snake Bite, Rookie, and everyone working hard and taking risks to rattle their cage and keep this website and the issues with ATF at the fore front, I say work well done, keep it up. Keep lighting fires under ATF, its advisors, the legislature, and the media, adding any fuels needed to keep them burning until the Bureau stands up and takes responsibility and presents appropriate, ethical solutions. Anxiously awaiting a post from "Vindicated" and a workable, ethical plan to restore ATF to its former stature and effectiveness. Respectfully, "Alice" "Act or be acted upon." Steven R. Covey

#1259 Valkyrie

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 07:01 PM

Lest we forget the Mark Potter who destroyed supervisory corp by dismantling 2 of the best Supervisors we ever had in Atlanta, Kevin Richardson and Jackie Herndon. He was also the one who ordered the FIC to purchase the commerative box for Jack Killorins retirement gun on the Agents Gov Credit card.


It is worse than somebody said earlier, because Potter isnt the acting DAD in Office of Management, he is the acting AD the brain trust brought in to replace Melanie Stinett, who has done such a great job over our human resources and financial sections. How about the cast of characters here:

1. Potter is "famous" for his I Love Me board with blank spots for his creds as he has moved up the ladder over the years. Rumor is that he has a few blank spots left since he is hoping to get a DAD, AD and Deputy Director spot. A nice touch for SAC Potter was getting creds made that added "Senior Executive Service" so everyone would know he got his before some of the others. Maybe he was tring to impress the TSA at the airport when he signed the log book?

2. How long did Potter know about ASAC Tommy Stankiewicz and his extra curricular actions?

3. Any coinicidence that Chait and Potter are thick as thieves? They even have the same slicked back hair - maybe they buy their hair gel in bulk at Costco.

4. Dana Nichols: wasn't she the same one Wilfred Larry Ford somehow got promoted into PGA to be sort kind of division chief, JUST long enough to have her be on paper so they could "lateral" her to an ASAC job in Chicago without any more competition or announcement? I am SURE nobody in PGA would have helped her out by selecting things they knew were high on her AC score. Ooooh, that would be unethical, right? I am also SURE she could have beaten out all the other people fair and square for Chicago ASAC without needing the same pay period PGA lateral. Uh huh.

A Caddy for some ASAC and slick SAC? Really? Is that leadership or putting a thumb in the street agent's eyes just because you can?

#1260 Doc Holiday

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 10:11 AM

Lest we forget the Mark Potter who destroyed supervisory corp by dismantling 2 of the best Supervisors we ever had in Atlanta, Kevin Richardson and Jackie Herndon. He was also the one who ordered the FIC to purchase the commerative box for Jack Killorins retirement gun on the Agents Gov Credit card.

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 09:23 AM

We have street agents begging the Potter's and Nichols's of the agency for funding permissions to conduct investigations. Money needed to set up operations and for the equipment needed is being denied. Agents are litterally begging for the resources needed to do our jobs and these guys are cruising in Cadillac's that do absolutely nothing towards the futherance of ATF's mission but instead only raise the personal profile of those abusing our budget. Potter has been the subject of so many employee complaints they can't be counted but he tolerated and defended by ATF everytime. He follows in the steps of Carl Truscott who wanted to create a glamorous enviornment for himself and the hell with everyone else. THe OIG found that he was using is work time to help Truscott's nephew do a homework project and what happened to him? Nothing. Everytime a corrupt act goes without any personal accountablity is empowers the guilty party to continue their conduct.

#1262 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 08:42 AM

Check out the video...I did. I guess someone forgot to scratch out Mark Potter's name! The person driving the vehicle in Chicago, of course, was Dana Nichols.
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#1263 Doc Holiday

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 08:15 AM

The OIG better send the entire team. See the attached link. It was reported here in plain view of Mr. Melson, Ms. Loos and Mr.Holder months ago. According to the current ATF roster, Mark Potter is serving as an acting DAD. Really Mr. Melson? Dana Nichols is still an ASAC. How can that be? Almost $50,000 for a car when we don't have money for Lights and Sirens. They should both be immediately investigated and removed from management as an example to others who think this is their private play ground. Mr. Potter and Ms. Nichols, do you even remember the days when we drove hand me downs and were glad to have them? How many firearms investigations would that money have funded. Mr. Melson, do you think the guys and gals on the SW border could use some of that cash. If you let just this one abusive waste of taxpayers money go unchecked, you are opening the flood gates for the Newells, Gillettes, Martins, Torres, Vidos, Gleysteens, Richardsons, Fords, Crenshaws and the rest. Handle your business Mr. Melson. If you are wondering why all these leaks are coming out left and right, its because you are operating in a vacuum and have disregarded US THE FIELD for far too long. LOYALTY BEGETS LOYALTY. REMEMBER "LEAD FROM THE TOP"? http://www.myfoxphil...xury-vehicles--

#1264 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 05:09 AM

Also, word on the street is the the IG is already giving Crenshaw a mud check and has focused on a variety of issues to include the fraud, waste and abuse, mismanagement of resources and abuse of power for his self-arranged trip to FLETC for an ethics presentation to an NAT class, the non-performance of that presentation and the discovery that the trip was ultimately a cover story for a date which included a trip to Applebee's for some popcorn shrimp. I want my babyback, babyback, babyback - ribs!

Riddle me this Batman, if you're gonna arrange a hook up and you're the head of IA that investigates this type of stuff why would you be so ignorant to do at St. Simon's where you're under the eye of dozens of ATF agents and likely hundreds of witnesses who know who you are? Crenshaw was another genius selection of Carter and Hoover.

Maybe when the IG is done ATF can hide him in headquarters and promote his retirement as an agency trailblazer, ala, Vannessa. Kelvin helped arrange for her free pass so maybe he can get one too.

Hopefully, Krenshaw will not lie like Vanessa and take his lumps like a man. I want to know what the IG is doing about Ronnie Carter and Michael Sullivan being on per diem for 2 years? Why don't we have a policy on that?? They should make them repay that $$$.
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Posted 17 April 2010 - 11:27 AM

Also, word on the street is the the IG is already giving Crenshaw a mud check and has focused on a variety of issues to include the fraud, waste and abuse, mismanagement of resources and abuse of power for his self-arranged trip to FLETC for an ethics presentation to an NAT class, the non-performance of that presentation and the discovery that the trip was ultimately a cover story for a date which included a trip to Applebee's for some popcorn shrimp. I want my babyback, babyback, babyback - ribs! Riddle me this Batman, if you're gonna arrange a hook up and you're the head of IA that investigates this type of stuff why would you be so ignorant to do at St. Simon's where you're under the eye of dozens of ATF agents and likely hundreds of witnesses who know who you are? Crenshaw was another genius selection of Carter and Hoover. Maybe when the IG is done ATF can hide him in headquarters and promote his retirement as an agency trailblazer, ala, Vannessa. Kelvin helped arrange for her free pass so maybe he can get one too.

#1266 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 07:01 AM

READ ALL ABOUT IT!! Now that the fraternization policy is in place and that the main culprits have notified their respective supervisors regarding their passionate relationships....it is rumored that they are hooking up right in the puzzle palace for a "quickie" in the middle of the day....anybody heard that???? Isn't there a policy that prohibits sex in the workplace? I know there is one for violence! Another predator strikes!
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#1267 Guest_Simple Man_*

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 08:37 AM

I just wanted to clarify some of my terms...

Predators = The executives and mid-level managers that have sex with ATF employees in exchange for promotions, outstanding evlauations, and other benefits
Abusers = The executives and mid-level managers that abuse employeees with adverse actions when it is not warranted.
Zombies = The executives and mid-level managers that observe the abuse and predators go on and do not do anything. This includes employees that pretend nothing happened or give "I do not recall statements"
Voyeurs = Employees that hear of the abuse and don't do anything.

Thor, that adds up to about 90% of the agency. The Voyeurs are interesting because I personally know dozens and dozens of agents who know how bad it is but they just do not want to get involved for fear of retaliation. I can understand that as a young agent with babies to feed. But with the non-participation you are part of the problem. I doubt ATF is going to come after anyone now as they have in the past because they know too many eyes are on their crimes, past and present.

#1268 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 04:40 AM

I am not begging. I am demanding and holding DD Melson accountable and responsible for the actions of his cronies. He has now inherited the problems, the predators, the zombies and all of the issues that comes along with his position. The question is appropriate he is the DD and as a taxpayer, an employee and citizen of the US, I want to know what is he going to do about it? :unsure:


I just wanted to clarify some of my terms...

Predators = The executives and mid-level managers that have sex with ATF employees in exchange for promotions, outstanding evlauations, and other benefits
Abusers = The executives and mid-level managers that abuse employeees with adverse actions when it is not warranted.
Zombies = The executives and mid-level managers that observe the abuse and predators go on and do not do anything. This includes employees that pretend nothing happened or give "I do not recall statements"
Voyeurs = Employees that hear of the abuse and don't do anything.
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#1269 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 03:12 PM

What college or university did DAD Torres get her law degree from? In what states has she been accepted to the bar?

No offense to those who blog here but begging Melson to pay attention or take action is a waste of time.


I am not begging. I am demanding and holding DD Melson accountable and responsible for the actions of his cronies. He has now inherited the problems, the predators, the zombies and all of the issues that comes along with his position. The question is appropriate he is the DD and as a taxpayer, an employee and citizen of the US, I want to know what is he going to do about it? :unsure:
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Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:08 PM

What college or university did DAD Torres get her law degree from? In what states has she been accepted to the bar? No offense to those who blog here but begging Melson to pay attention or take action is a waste of time.

#1271 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:11 PM

Take a look at ATF history. Hartnett and Conroy decieved and lied to Director Higgins. They told him half-truths and distorted facts when reporting to him. See Waco and the post-Waco events to see how that worked out of ATF and all the shot callers.

Now flash forward to today's ATF. Hoover and Chait are doing the same thing to Melson that their predessors did to Higgins and they've got ATF headed in the same direction, only worse.



The constant lies that these guys tell the Deputy Director are flabbergasting and unbelievable. I hope the Deputy Director wises up and starts kicking some SES azzzzz. They would start running for cover then....
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#1272 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:08 PM

Without getting into specific details as to this investigation, back in the fall of 09 DAD Torres intervened with an investigation of a violent offender in the North East, not allowing ATF to go after this individual. Subsequent to this interference, this individual went on to commit some other violent crime. Recently this investigation has come to an end and the field office requested SRT for a takedown. DAD Torres once again intervened and stated that there wasn’t enough information to prosecute this investigation, even though the US Attorney for that area wrote a statement stating otherwise. Come to find out this is not the first time she stops an investigation of a violent offender. A few years back while SAC of Miami, she told a case producer that even though he/she had obtained a valid warrant for a target, then SAC Torres felt there was not enough substance on the warrant application. This is after a Federal Magistrate signed it. Have we not learned anything from the “Blue Book” and having managers interfere with Commanders in the field?


I undserstand that she has a lot of experience in F#@#$%#ing up cases when her claim to fame is bathing in chicken blood for an undercover deal.....but qualified to be a Deputy Assistant Director!
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#1273 caseproducer

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 03:17 PM

Without getting into specific details as to this investigation, back in the fall of 09 DAD Torres intervened with an investigation of a violent offender in the North East, not allowing ATF to go after this individual. Subsequent to this interference, this individual went on to commit some other violent crime. Recently this investigation has come to an end and the field office requested SRT for a takedown. DAD Torres once again intervened and stated that there wasn’t enough information to prosecute this investigation, even though the US Attorney for that area wrote a statement stating otherwise. Come to find out this is not the first time she stops an investigation of a violent offender. A few years back while SAC of Miami, she told a case producer that even though he/she had obtained a valid warrant for a target, then SAC Torres felt there was not enough substance on the warrant application. This is after a Federal Magistrate signed it. Have we not learned anything from the “Blue Book” and having managers interfere with Commanders in the field?

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 08:34 AM

Take a look at ATF history. Hartnett and Conroy decieved and lied to Director Higgins. They told him half-truths and distorted facts when reporting to him. See Waco and the post-Waco events to see how that worked out of ATF and all the shot callers. Now flash forward to today's ATF. Hoover and Chait are doing the same thing to Melson that their predessors did to Higgins and they've got ATF headed in the same direction, only worse.

#1275 Doc Holiday

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:56 PM

One in a row. God Bless ATF Agents.

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:17 PM

I am and will continue to be a sharp critic of ATF mismanagement and abuse but if I want to be able to look myself in the eye then I have give credit when it is due. The grapevine says that the flag at ATF Headquarters was lowered to half-staff with respects for the passing of retired ATF Agent Jim Flannigan. A little dignity and compassion for the work force goes a long way. Who ever called the ball on this one, thank you.

#1277 Retired and loving it

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 01:24 PM

Here’s one. Kelvin Crenshaw was the AD of OPRSO. He calls the academy and insists that he be given a 4 hour block of time to address Internal Affairs business with ATF students. The academy staff advises Crenshaw that the class schedule is tight and cannot be rearranged without upsetting the students training. Crenshaw flexes his AD influence and insists. The academy staff reorganizes the training schedule to accommodate Crenshaw's demand for time. Crenshaw arrives and takes 15 minutes to say nothing of substance. He is seen out in town later that night with a Hoochie having dinner and drinks. AD Crenshaw who was Carter and Hoover’s personal selection to be the figurehead of integrity as the OPRSO Director forced a trip on the academy so that he could get a hook-up. Enough said.



You would think that anyone scamming a trip to FLETC for a rendevous would at least be smart enough to know that he'd be noticed with the hoochie out on the town in places like Brunswick or St. Simon's. If he could come all the way from DC for a hookup, why not at least be wise and discreet enough to go to somewhere like Savannah or Jacksonville?

But them I'm reminded that this is the ATF manager who can't even insert a magazine into a firearm properly. I guess he needs to stick to insertions at which he is more skilled.

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:58 AM

Here’s one. Kelvin Crenshaw was the AD of OPRSO. He calls the academy and insists that he be given a 4 hour block of time to address Internal Affairs business with ATF students. The academy staff advises Crenshaw that the class schedule is tight and cannot be rearranged without upsetting the students training. Crenshaw flexes his AD influence and insists. The academy staff reorganizes the training schedule to accommodate Crenshaw's demand for time. Crenshaw arrives and takes 15 minutes to say nothing of substance. He is seen out in town later that night with a Hoochie having dinner and drinks. AD Crenshaw who was Carter and Hoover’s personal selection to be the figurehead of integrity as the OPRSO Director forced a trip on the academy so that he could get a hook-up. Enough said.

#1279 Doc Holiday

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 07:02 AM

Edgars hypocracy wasnt enough the first time? We are going to give him a second shot at destroying another aspect of our Bureau? What happened to the institutional reprisals Edgar complained about? Is he pursuing his complaint? Is he exposing the corruption in Counsel and IA? I bet not. I bet he took his war college perk and his money and decided he must have been wrong. Pick a side Edgar and try to stay there. Talk about a total lack of respect and confidence in a boss.

#1280 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 03:46 AM

I heard it through the grapevine that Edgar Dommenech will be returning to the Washington Field Division. It will not be Billy Hoover.
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#1281 Concernedsup

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 09:21 AM

Rumor has it that DD Melson has stated that you will no longer receive your creds, in a retired form, when you retire. If this is true, which I can't vouch if it is or not, then it's a slap in the face to agents that have given more than half their life, in some cases working, for this agency. I my self currently have 29 years federal service, 23 of those with ATF. When I retire, I'll will have 35 years federal service and 29 with ATF way more than half my life at time of retirement. The least I should get are my creds in a retired form of some sort. Please DD Melson say it ain't so!!!!!!

#1282 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 11:27 PM

Excellent point Thor. Our explosives jurisdiciton came well before our firearms or arson jurisdiction. Alcohol and tobacco laid the ground work but explosives runs a close second. Your description of explosives as a part of ATF's DNA is dead nuts on the money. Explosives are at the core of what our agency does. If our management has put us in a postion to have that taken from us then there absolutely needs to be personal accountablity demanded for those who let it get away. I don't think its a done deal but we should never have been put in a postion by our leadership to have to fight for what is rightfully ours to begin with.


Thanks Lips! I know it is not over but it is not looking good!!! :(
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Posted 13 March 2010 - 12:43 PM

Excellent point Thor. Our explosives jurisdiciton came well before our firearms or arson jurisdiction. Alcohol and tobacco laid the ground work but explosives runs a close second. Your description of explosives as a part of ATF's DNA is dead nuts on the money. Explosives are at the core of what our agency does. If our management has put us in a postion to have that taken from us then there absolutely needs to be personal accountablity demanded for those who let it get away. I don't think its a done deal but we should never have been put in a postion by our leadership to have to fight for what is rightfully ours to begin with.

#1284 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 06:10 AM

If we lose our explosives jurisdiction it will be because Hoover, Chait and Reihl are asleep at the wheel. HQ is so busy with their dirty laundry of personel issues that they can no longer watch the house. Melson is out of the picture. He's clearly a non-factor in anything of substance at ATF. Constant calls for his attention are fruitless. Forget it, the guy is not in the game. Hoover has been severely distracted with his own personal issues. Chait simply can't make a decision on anything to save his life. He just can't pull the trigger on anything regardless of how minor the decision.

How do we as ATF even end up in a position to have our explosives jurisdiction challenged? Reihl come on man, someone's got to know what they're doing. Don't tell us the FBI is going to beat you on this.

I believe the last three things ATF does well are arson, explosives and our SRT's. I am not a member of any of those clubs but they are good. Our arson guys are top notch. Our explosives crews are excellent. Our tactical squads are professional and exceptionally affective. I am a plain old agent so I criticize my own game when I say we just aren't as good as we use to be chasing guns. Our intelligence is confused. Our numbers of original cases are pathetic. We may be stapling PD's reports to ROI cover sheets and calling them cases but not all that long ago if you conducted your agent business that way you were viewed disgracefully. Now its all the rage. Our management is in shambles. The once reliable undercover pool, although still holding on to a few exceptionally talented agents, has been so diluted with inexperience you can't count on getting a quality uc when you go the EUP for help. My office has just turned to state and locals for our uc's because the guys you want from the EUP are not the guys they offer. Our tracing and nibin is being challenged regularly. Our international programs have been left unsupported with personel and resources. Training has vanished. Chief Counsels office is corrupt. EEO numbers are the highest they've ever been. The Ombudsmans office is a Benedict Arnold to employees for management. PGA, I can't even go there without starting a new paragraph on incompetence.

You know that judgement day is near when INS and Customs BP are submitting as many gun cases to the US Attorney as ATF is on the southwest border, in some areas more. How can that be? In some of the major cities DEA is catching more guns than ATF and they don't even bother to call us to pick up their scraps anymore.

Here's a kicker. The Grapevine says OIG recently audited ATF's Project Gunrunner and we got laid out bad. No surprises there when you have Hoover, Chait, Webb, Newell and Torres calling the shots on that program. How did DOJ leave these guys with the keys to the car? A perfect storm of incompetence. Mismanagement, false promises, inaffective leadership, funding fraud-waste-abuse are just of few of the lowlights that are going to be brought to the attention of DOJ and Congress by the OIG. But, do any of these guys even care? They've all been accused and found guilty of mismanagement in the past and they are all still in their comfy spots unchallenged and unchanged. Their incompetency simply doesn't matter to them or apparently anyone of influence at DOJ.

With our current leadership at the helm ATF will soon be left with the SRT guarding NRT scenes while the explosives and gun agents will become court baliffs or counting bullets in the FBI's basement. If you love ATF say a little prayer tonight that we are allowed to keep our explosives jurisdiction. We just can't afford to lose that battle at this time. The consequences of a defeat on explosives is very critical at this time for the survival of ATF.



I hate to be the bearer of bad news. I hate to predict a tragedy. I hate to be the one that forsees or fortells a tragic future. I feel compelled to and I feel that I must say this. If we continue on the same path, ATF, as we know it will cease to exist. Can you say......Rogue? This is exactly where we are going! This is exactly where we are going to end up. Someone equated ATF to the Titanic running into an iceberg. Someone else said that all our leadership does is re-arrange the chairs on the Titanic (ATF). If our leadership does not change its evil ways, it will not be because of websites like this that expose ATF's dirty laundry and dirty little secrets, it will be as a consequence of the decisions that our leadership makes on a daily basis to mismanage, abuse, and waste the resources that have been provided for ATF to carry out its mission. It is no coincidence that we find ourselves in a fight for our very own DNA (explosives jurisdiction). Fight as we might, it is only matter of time until this is settled and I doubt it will be in our favor because this has been going on for a very long time. If it were going to go in our favor, it would have gone in our favor a long time ago. It is going to take a miracle to get us where we need to be.

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#1285 Guest_Jumper_*

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 11:04 PM

It seems that we will soon find out who has the explosive jurisdiction, ATF or FBI?? Why does ATF have to fight for the jursidiction that is contained in its name???? Is this madness or what??

If we lose our explosives jurisdiction it will be because Hoover, Chait and Reihl are asleep at the wheel. HQ is so busy with their dirty laundry of personel issues that they can no longer watch the house. Melson is out of the picture. He's clearly a non-factor in anything of substance at ATF. Constant calls for his attention are fruitless. Forget it, the guy is not in the game. Hoover has been severely distracted with his own personal issues. Chait simply can't make a decision on anything to save his life. He just can't pull the trigger on anything regardless of how minor the decision.

How do we as ATF even end up in a position to have our explosives jurisdiction challenged? Reihl come on man, someone's got to know what they're doing. Don't tell us the FBI is going to beat you on this.

I believe the last three things ATF does well are arson, explosives and our SRT's. I am not a member of any of those clubs but they are good. Our arson guys are top notch. Our explosives crews are excellent. Our tactical squads are professional and exceptionally affective. I am a plain old agent so I criticize my own game when I say we just aren't as good as we use to be chasing guns. Our intelligence is confused. Our numbers of original cases are pathetic. We may be stapling PD's reports to ROI cover sheets and calling them cases but not all that long ago if you conducted your agent business that way you were viewed disgracefully. Now its all the rage. Our management is in shambles. The once reliable undercover pool, although still holding on to a few exceptionally talented agents, has been so diluted with inexperience you can't count on getting a quality uc when you go the EUP for help. My office has just turned to state and locals for our uc's because the guys you want from the EUP are not the guys they offer. Our tracing and nibin is being challenged regularly. Our international programs have been left unsupported with personel and resources. Training has vanished. Chief Counsels office is corrupt. EEO numbers are the highest they've ever been. The Ombudsmans office is a Benedict Arnold to employees for management. PGA, I can't even go there without starting a new paragraph on incompetence.

You know that judgement day is near when INS and Customs BP are submitting as many gun cases to the US Attorney as ATF is on the southwest border, in some areas more. How can that be? In some of the major cities DEA is catching more guns than ATF and they don't even bother to call us to pick up their scraps anymore.

Here's a kicker. The Grapevine says OIG recently audited ATF's Project Gunrunner and we got laid out bad. No surprises there when you have Hoover, Chait, Webb, Newell and Torres calling the shots on that program. How did DOJ leave these guys with the keys to the car? A perfect storm of incompetence. Mismanagement, false promises, inaffective leadership, funding fraud-waste-abuse are just of few of the lowlights that are going to be brought to the attention of DOJ and Congress by the OIG. But, do any of these guys even care? They've all been accused and found guilty of mismanagement in the past and they are all still in their comfy spots unchallenged and unchanged. Their incompetency simply doesn't matter to them or apparently anyone of influence at DOJ.

With our current leadership at the helm ATF will soon be left with the SRT guarding NRT scenes while the explosives and gun agents will become court baliffs or counting bullets in the FBI's basement. If you love ATF say a little prayer tonight that we are allowed to keep our explosives jurisdiction. We just can't afford to lose that battle at this time. The consequences of a defeat on explosives is very critical at this time for the survival of ATF.

#1286 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 07:35 PM

Thor good question and you are right, he is the result of bad leadership, that then breeds more bad leadership, which then puts this agency right where it is at the current time. Leadership or lack thereof is the root cause of most organizational problems, whether it be government or private industry. Unfortunately the public suffers in the case of government failure and does not reap the benefit of a terrifically dedicated workforce that continues to do more with less, overcome bad management, but is slowly being worn down. Want to know the solution, exploit the asset forfeiture fund, bring on a record number of TFO's to do the work. Essentially outsourcing agents jobs to contractors. That is not a knock on TFO's who do a terrific job and are an asset to ATF's mission.


We have not grown (Special Agent population) in 20 years. This really is shameful.

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#1287 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 07:26 PM

It seems that we will soon find out who has the explosive jurisdiction, ATF or FBI?? Why does ATF have to fight for the jursidiction that is contained in its name???? Is this madness or what??
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#1288 Patriot

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 06:17 AM

Thor good question and you are right, he is the result of bad leadership, that then breeds more bad leadership, which then puts this agency right where it is at the current time. Leadership or lack thereof is the root cause of most organizational problems, whether it be government or private industry. Unfortunately the public suffers in the case of government failure and does not reap the benefit of a terrifically dedicated workforce that continues to do more with less, overcome bad management, but is slowly being worn down. Want to know the solution, exploit the asset forfeiture fund, bring on a record number of TFO's to do the work. Essentially outsourcing agents jobs to contractors. That is not a knock on TFO's who do a terrific job and are an asset to ATF's mission.

#1289 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 12:19 AM

Marquez in not a bad guy. He may be in the wrong profession and clueless but he is a decent guy.


I must ask this question. How does a guy in the wrong profession and clueless becomes a GS-15??? I do not think that him not being a
bad guy or a decent guy is relevant. The concern is how does a guy that is in the wrong profession and clueless lead others that are in the right profession and have a clue?? What great leaders we have!!!???!!! If this guy does not have a clue and in the wrong profession, is this systemic througout our leadership? hmmmmmm.....I wonder.
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#1290 Doc Holiday

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 08:46 PM

Well there you have it. They are shooting up schools and citizens and we need to spend ANY time on securing our computer in SECURED ATF work space. Because our leaders got slammed for not properly ensuring property accountability and got caught.Locking the computers to the wall wont reduce the number of computers that go missing. What next, chain our guns to our wrists? Bet you someone gets a grade 14 for that one or maybe an SES.

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 06:14 AM

When all seems hopeless there is always some comedic issue that will make you laugh. Apparently one of the burning issues in ATF is laptop security so a policy has been crafted that is laughable and I quote "All users must utilize the cable locks provided, in order to ensure the security of unattended workstations while in the workplace. Workstations must be locked to a fixed stationary object or the building itself and the cable lock key must be stored in a locked location" I assume there is little faith in the secure office concept, alarms, cameras etc. Who are we preventing from stealing our laptops, co-workers? Have we risen to that level of mistrust?Apparently we have to have rings installed in the walls to loop the cable locks through in order to be in compliance with the policy, since nothing else is fixed in place. I wonder at what expense? Probably written by the same person who thinks we can remember all our passwords without writing them somewhere, also in violation of a policy. Can we apply some common sense and focus on what is important to our mission. Lack of leadership and oversight empowers people top create policies that are unreasonable, impossible to follow and in the end designed to allow management to create distance from controversy.

#1292 Patriot

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 06:07 AM

Marquez in not a bad guy. He may be in the wrong profession and clueless but he is a decent guy.

#1293 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 02:58 AM

It seems that ATF's Personnel or Human Resource Department is under the gun. HR is constantly getting audited by OPM. As a matter of fact, there is an audit this week! Could this be for the many inconsistencies and "hook ups" and "cover ups" that HR has been involved in?? Helen Oates, an HR manager or supervisor is at the center of this hurricane. She's a good ol' Texas rattle snake! Better keep your distance or she just might bite ya! The integrity and ethics of HR is down in the gutter and is nothing but sewage to put it mildly. I hope OPM will hold them accountable. We wonder why ATF can not get its own hiring authority nor hire 400 qualified employees when we get 1000s of qualified applicants. Will things ever get better?? :blink: :unsure:
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#1294 Doc Holiday

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 11:11 PM

Our sytem is broken. Our leaders have ignored, decieved and lied to the American People, Congress numerous times and continue to misrepresent our capabilities. Now we are at risk of losing our explosive jurisdiction because Mr. Carter, Mr. Hoover and Riehl have ignored and poorly addressed the nations explosive jurisdictions. Glenn Fine the Inspector General for the Department of Justice illustrated how poorly in his recent testimony before a subcommitee on Homeland security. Conspicuously missing from the Table, anyone from ATF. There was a DOJ Deputy there, there was an FBI Executive staff memeber there. There was No one there to defend ATF. The IG stated unequivocally that ATF has fallen short of prior recommendations and has directed DOJ to handle this matter. I wonder whose side most consideration will fall on. It might be ATF, but probably not. We wish it would but no one from our team showed up. The IG was in Mexico all last week and now they are auditing ATFs response to our commitment to border violence. Care to guess what they found out? Smoke and mirrors. Billy and crew along with Mr. Melson have promised everything to everyone regarding border violence. We have been given direction AND funding for just that reason. However, it seems ATF still only has 5% of our field strength on or near the border. They refuse the impliment the Mexican NIBIN program and continue to avoid answering WHY. Mr. Melson, there are 2000 Agents and 3000 other dedicated employees. We are speaking up. ARE YOU LISTENING?????? You are right, words are powerful. If you are not here to advance this agency, if you do not understand this dynamic agency. Please ask to be reassigned and stop running this Bureau into the ground. WE LOVE ATF, you sir are just a visitor.

#1295 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 01:47 AM

Yeah, I heard Marquez is up in Boston wreaking havoc on his subordinate supervisors. They may need a break!



I guess Marquez will continue to wreak havoc since he did not get that HQ SAC job he wanted.
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Posted 07 March 2010 - 11:01 PM

Quotations are from the the below posting.

"I spoke with Steve Martin last week about this after having several conversations with B and Richatd Hurst." Is the "B" Loos refers to Billy Hoover?

"As we briefly discussed, there are whistleblower issues in this matter and Richard is quite sensitive to them. As you might guess, Steve is troubled by this and wants to discuss it further with Richard." Translated: Steve Martin is troubled by his or his subordinates handling of a whistleblower employee. He wants to discuss their mistakes with an ATF attorney. Why? Read on.

"By discussing the issue with Richard, all discussions would be confidential should future litigation arise." Translated: If you get caught dirty just discuss it with an ATF attorney and then your words and actions can be protected under a fabricated attorney-client privlidge. A lesson from ATF's Chief Ethics Attorney: plan ahead for litigation by securing your attorney-client privlige now. More...

"Richard has been on leave, however, so this conversation hasn't occurred." Translated: Loos is advising her "client" that until the attorney-client conversation can take place no protection is in place. Or, the conversation in her email hasn't taken place. Either - or, this smells bad.

They really should be more careful about what they let leak out to the field. We may not be high and mighty attorneys but we're not stupid. And, there's a lot more of these types of messages in agents possession that display the backroom espionage that is conducted against field employees. As promised, there is always more to come.

#1297 Doc Holiday

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 05:57 PM

The following surfaced as text taken directly from an email between Ms. Loos, SAC Steve Martin, and SFFD counsel. The typos resulted from a faulty scan of the doc. I think you can gleen what was going on in this recent case enough so that you will be sick to your stomach. Prepare for knowing whitewashs and coverups if you go down this road. This is the most blatant example of their arrogance. I spoke with Steve Martin last week about this after having several conversations with B and Richatd Hurst. It won't be possible to give you the real flavor of these conversations .. Richard's view is that the letter of clearance that SA XXXXX received resolves ALL issues raised during the investigation including matters not specifically addressed in the OPSRO ROI. As we briefly discussed, there are whistleblower issues in this matter and Richard is quite sensitive to them. As you might guess, Steve is troubled by this and wants to discuss it further with Richard. By discussing the issue with Richard, all discussions would be confidential should future litigation arise. He also has some concerns with the restrictions placed upon XXXXX by Don at the inception of the matter. Richard has been on leave, however, so this conversation hasn't occurred. I'm in Seattle this week at Counsel's national conference and Richard's attending. Steve asked me to give him a heads-up when he can contact him. MR. MELSON, WE ARE SPEAKING UP. WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO?

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 04:24 PM

When a lower-tiered employee files a complaint against a manager (whether it be a grievance or EEO complaint) how often does ATF's Chief Counsels Office and E.Loos come running to that managers defense? Everytime. When a manager alleges wrongdoing against a lower-tiered employee how often does ATF's Chief Counsels Office and Loos come running to that employees defense? Never. Is Chief Counsels Office and Loos tasked to provide legal guidance for the benefit of ATF, or only ATF managers? Does Chief Counsels Office and Loos ever examine the facts of the complaints from either side before they/she draw their line in the sand. No. In their minds managers are alawys right, innocent or falsely accused. Agents are always wrong, guilty and "got caught". How many managers have been provided free legal counsel by ATF and Loos even though they were guilty? I don't know the number but I am certain it is massive. How many agents have been provided free legal counsel when allegations have been made against them by management? Again, with near certainty, I would say never. Let me ask all agents, administrative employees and industry employees a question. Do you feel that in the eyes of ATF's Chief Counsels Office and the Chief Ethics Attorney Loos you as a lower-tiered employee are considered a part of this agency? ATF Chief Counsels Office and Loos will ALWAYS defend management first and foremost, right or wrong, regardless of the facts. Lower tiered employees who complain will always be subjected to hostile work enviornments, reprisals, retaliations in all shapes and forms. Why wouldn't managers follow Loos's every word and piece of advise. She covers up their mistakes and defends them when they can't be covered up. If any of you from a probationary new hire to Acting Director Melson think that Chief Counsels Office and Loos don't administer nearly every element of this agency then you are kidding yourself. I'm sorry. This is not a perfect, fair or just world at ATF. It is just the way it is. As one of our newly appointed SAC's pointed out to his agents a few years back, "It is institutional and historical at ATF. There is nothing I can do to change that. Either live with it or quit."

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 01:49 PM

We as field employees have entrusted our leadership to first; make decisions that are best for ATF and second; make decisions that are best for us as individuals. The agency always has to come first otherwise the direction of ATF will be catered to a multitude of individual needs and wants. The problem is that our leaders have not shown they can even handle the small things right. We can’t trust them to follow the rules when they order their cars, refrain from engaging in sexual relationships with subordinates, or are asked to simply tell the truth to investigators or while under oath.. They haven’t been able to find the inner integrity to treat the agencies personnel with consistency. When agents are hammered for the very misdeeds that executives are given passes for the double standard crushes the hopes of fairness. If our leaders can’t be trusted to fairly and consistently address all of us with equality then how can we trust them with a billion dollars of taxpayer money to run ATF? They have failed us on the small things but turn and ask us to blindly trust them with the big stuff. Based on what? If you can’t be trusted to sweep the floor then how can you be be trusted to run the company? Our leaders have forgotten how to "sweep the floor" and some, maybe most, never knew how in the first place. We have placed trust in all the directors, their executives, the attorney’s, and the mid-levels to justified and consistent in all their business. If a boss is consistently harsh I can live with that. I know what to expect, what his or her standard is and if harshness is administered across the board then at least it is consistent to all. The way these guys do business is to show favoritism and leniency to their friends and destroy those perceived as outsiders. Can anyone offer an argument that this is not true? Can anyone offer a single example of an executive receiving the same treatment and punishment for the same “crime” as a field employee? The lower level always gets it worse. Can anyone show a single example of an executive being held to a higher standard than the subordinates they manage? Leadership starts at the top. If Melson expects ATF to change from the bottom up every single historical example from business to the military will show that this does not happen. Double standards, consistent ignorance of lowers complaints and issues and complete lack of concern for the workers is what mutinies are made of. Integrity is most simply described as doing the right thing when no one is watching or will likely ever see what you have done. How many of ATF’s leaders from the mid-levels to the executives do any of us believe could, or would adhere to this principle? Example after example shows that they will try to get away with whatever they think they can and when they get caught they lie about it and circle the wagons with little to no accountablity. If this wasn't true they they wouldn't be caught sucking up to the Director by doing his nephews homework, screwing their subordinate at the office or in their g-rides, ordering Cadillacs instead of Chryslers, parking their g-rides in front of topless bars during work hours, fabricating documents to frame agents in order to win legal disputes, covering up lost property, lying under oath, ignoring legitmate complaints and allowing them to turn into legal disputes, and on and on and on. Lets see some of these big shots be given a taste of we are use to. You, Mr. Executive, misuse a g-ride, head to the beach for a month or so with no pay. You lie under oath you get handed termination paperwork and figure out where to find an attorney to fight for you job (and pay for it). You're alleged to be nailing the help then answer up to all the questions under oath of whether that took place on government time, in a government car, in a government funded office or in any way had any nexus to government funds (i.e. were you in travel status, TDY or in temp housing during your escapades?). They can't and won't hold themselves to these standards because they can't bare the burden of what they have consistently placed on their agents. On the other hand they've had no problem holding me or you to them. If any or all of these situations apply to you as a supervisor then take your free pass, just don't try to sell us on your leadership.

#1300 Doc Holiday

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 11:50 AM

Was anything ever done to SAC Horace regarding his misrepresentation to IA about his car being stolen? Is it true IA can no longer produce the IA files which got him and Tony Woo relieved of duties in Seattle? Was the information that SAC Horaces car was towed from a strip club during duty hours FALSE. If anybody know, we would like to be clear on this practice of covering up the bosses indiscretions while pouncing on the fields oversight. What is the difference between "lack of candor" and "Lying". Is that a response to the OSC finding that newly appointed SAC Richardson was found to lack any candor when interviewed multiple times? When I came on the job, lack of candor and lying was the same. They just changed that standard on the newly released table of penalty's. Do they really think we don't see this? They added misuse of bus tokens, but lowered the bar for truthful sworn testimony. Am I the only one seeing this?




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