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#1251 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 03:12 PM

What college or university did DAD Torres get her law degree from? In what states has she been accepted to the bar?

No offense to those who blog here but begging Melson to pay attention or take action is a waste of time.


I am not begging. I am demanding and holding DD Melson accountable and responsible for the actions of his cronies. He has now inherited the problems, the predators, the zombies and all of the issues that comes along with his position. The question is appropriate he is the DD and as a taxpayer, an employee and citizen of the US, I want to know what is he going to do about it? :unsure:
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Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:08 PM

What college or university did DAD Torres get her law degree from? In what states has she been accepted to the bar? No offense to those who blog here but begging Melson to pay attention or take action is a waste of time.

#1253 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:11 PM

Take a look at ATF history. Hartnett and Conroy decieved and lied to Director Higgins. They told him half-truths and distorted facts when reporting to him. See Waco and the post-Waco events to see how that worked out of ATF and all the shot callers.

Now flash forward to today's ATF. Hoover and Chait are doing the same thing to Melson that their predessors did to Higgins and they've got ATF headed in the same direction, only worse.



The constant lies that these guys tell the Deputy Director are flabbergasting and unbelievable. I hope the Deputy Director wises up and starts kicking some SES azzzzz. They would start running for cover then....
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#1254 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:08 PM

Without getting into specific details as to this investigation, back in the fall of 09 DAD Torres intervened with an investigation of a violent offender in the North East, not allowing ATF to go after this individual. Subsequent to this interference, this individual went on to commit some other violent crime. Recently this investigation has come to an end and the field office requested SRT for a takedown. DAD Torres once again intervened and stated that there wasn’t enough information to prosecute this investigation, even though the US Attorney for that area wrote a statement stating otherwise. Come to find out this is not the first time she stops an investigation of a violent offender. A few years back while SAC of Miami, she told a case producer that even though he/she had obtained a valid warrant for a target, then SAC Torres felt there was not enough substance on the warrant application. This is after a Federal Magistrate signed it. Have we not learned anything from the “Blue Book” and having managers interfere with Commanders in the field?


I undserstand that she has a lot of experience in F#@#$%#ing up cases when her claim to fame is bathing in chicken blood for an undercover deal.....but qualified to be a Deputy Assistant Director!
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#1255 caseproducer

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 03:17 PM

Without getting into specific details as to this investigation, back in the fall of 09 DAD Torres intervened with an investigation of a violent offender in the North East, not allowing ATF to go after this individual. Subsequent to this interference, this individual went on to commit some other violent crime. Recently this investigation has come to an end and the field office requested SRT for a takedown. DAD Torres once again intervened and stated that there wasn’t enough information to prosecute this investigation, even though the US Attorney for that area wrote a statement stating otherwise. Come to find out this is not the first time she stops an investigation of a violent offender. A few years back while SAC of Miami, she told a case producer that even though he/she had obtained a valid warrant for a target, then SAC Torres felt there was not enough substance on the warrant application. This is after a Federal Magistrate signed it. Have we not learned anything from the “Blue Book” and having managers interfere with Commanders in the field?

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 08:34 AM

Take a look at ATF history. Hartnett and Conroy decieved and lied to Director Higgins. They told him half-truths and distorted facts when reporting to him. See Waco and the post-Waco events to see how that worked out of ATF and all the shot callers. Now flash forward to today's ATF. Hoover and Chait are doing the same thing to Melson that their predessors did to Higgins and they've got ATF headed in the same direction, only worse.

#1257 Doc Holiday

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:56 PM

One in a row. God Bless ATF Agents.

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:17 PM

I am and will continue to be a sharp critic of ATF mismanagement and abuse but if I want to be able to look myself in the eye then I have give credit when it is due. The grapevine says that the flag at ATF Headquarters was lowered to half-staff with respects for the passing of retired ATF Agent Jim Flannigan. A little dignity and compassion for the work force goes a long way. Who ever called the ball on this one, thank you.

#1259 Retired and loving it

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 01:24 PM

Here’s one. Kelvin Crenshaw was the AD of OPRSO. He calls the academy and insists that he be given a 4 hour block of time to address Internal Affairs business with ATF students. The academy staff advises Crenshaw that the class schedule is tight and cannot be rearranged without upsetting the students training. Crenshaw flexes his AD influence and insists. The academy staff reorganizes the training schedule to accommodate Crenshaw's demand for time. Crenshaw arrives and takes 15 minutes to say nothing of substance. He is seen out in town later that night with a Hoochie having dinner and drinks. AD Crenshaw who was Carter and Hoover’s personal selection to be the figurehead of integrity as the OPRSO Director forced a trip on the academy so that he could get a hook-up. Enough said.



You would think that anyone scamming a trip to FLETC for a rendevous would at least be smart enough to know that he'd be noticed with the hoochie out on the town in places like Brunswick or St. Simon's. If he could come all the way from DC for a hookup, why not at least be wise and discreet enough to go to somewhere like Savannah or Jacksonville?

But them I'm reminded that this is the ATF manager who can't even insert a magazine into a firearm properly. I guess he needs to stick to insertions at which he is more skilled.

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:58 AM

Here’s one. Kelvin Crenshaw was the AD of OPRSO. He calls the academy and insists that he be given a 4 hour block of time to address Internal Affairs business with ATF students. The academy staff advises Crenshaw that the class schedule is tight and cannot be rearranged without upsetting the students training. Crenshaw flexes his AD influence and insists. The academy staff reorganizes the training schedule to accommodate Crenshaw's demand for time. Crenshaw arrives and takes 15 minutes to say nothing of substance. He is seen out in town later that night with a Hoochie having dinner and drinks. AD Crenshaw who was Carter and Hoover’s personal selection to be the figurehead of integrity as the OPRSO Director forced a trip on the academy so that he could get a hook-up. Enough said.

#1261 Doc Holiday

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 07:02 AM

Edgars hypocracy wasnt enough the first time? We are going to give him a second shot at destroying another aspect of our Bureau? What happened to the institutional reprisals Edgar complained about? Is he pursuing his complaint? Is he exposing the corruption in Counsel and IA? I bet not. I bet he took his war college perk and his money and decided he must have been wrong. Pick a side Edgar and try to stay there. Talk about a total lack of respect and confidence in a boss.

#1262 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 03:46 AM

I heard it through the grapevine that Edgar Dommenech will be returning to the Washington Field Division. It will not be Billy Hoover.
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#1263 Concernedsup

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 09:21 AM

Rumor has it that DD Melson has stated that you will no longer receive your creds, in a retired form, when you retire. If this is true, which I can't vouch if it is or not, then it's a slap in the face to agents that have given more than half their life, in some cases working, for this agency. I my self currently have 29 years federal service, 23 of those with ATF. When I retire, I'll will have 35 years federal service and 29 with ATF way more than half my life at time of retirement. The least I should get are my creds in a retired form of some sort. Please DD Melson say it ain't so!!!!!!

#1264 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 11:27 PM

Excellent point Thor. Our explosives jurisdiciton came well before our firearms or arson jurisdiction. Alcohol and tobacco laid the ground work but explosives runs a close second. Your description of explosives as a part of ATF's DNA is dead nuts on the money. Explosives are at the core of what our agency does. If our management has put us in a postion to have that taken from us then there absolutely needs to be personal accountablity demanded for those who let it get away. I don't think its a done deal but we should never have been put in a postion by our leadership to have to fight for what is rightfully ours to begin with.


Thanks Lips! I know it is not over but it is not looking good!!! :(
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Posted 13 March 2010 - 12:43 PM

Excellent point Thor. Our explosives jurisdiciton came well before our firearms or arson jurisdiction. Alcohol and tobacco laid the ground work but explosives runs a close second. Your description of explosives as a part of ATF's DNA is dead nuts on the money. Explosives are at the core of what our agency does. If our management has put us in a postion to have that taken from us then there absolutely needs to be personal accountablity demanded for those who let it get away. I don't think its a done deal but we should never have been put in a postion by our leadership to have to fight for what is rightfully ours to begin with.

#1266 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 06:10 AM

If we lose our explosives jurisdiction it will be because Hoover, Chait and Reihl are asleep at the wheel. HQ is so busy with their dirty laundry of personel issues that they can no longer watch the house. Melson is out of the picture. He's clearly a non-factor in anything of substance at ATF. Constant calls for his attention are fruitless. Forget it, the guy is not in the game. Hoover has been severely distracted with his own personal issues. Chait simply can't make a decision on anything to save his life. He just can't pull the trigger on anything regardless of how minor the decision.

How do we as ATF even end up in a position to have our explosives jurisdiction challenged? Reihl come on man, someone's got to know what they're doing. Don't tell us the FBI is going to beat you on this.

I believe the last three things ATF does well are arson, explosives and our SRT's. I am not a member of any of those clubs but they are good. Our arson guys are top notch. Our explosives crews are excellent. Our tactical squads are professional and exceptionally affective. I am a plain old agent so I criticize my own game when I say we just aren't as good as we use to be chasing guns. Our intelligence is confused. Our numbers of original cases are pathetic. We may be stapling PD's reports to ROI cover sheets and calling them cases but not all that long ago if you conducted your agent business that way you were viewed disgracefully. Now its all the rage. Our management is in shambles. The once reliable undercover pool, although still holding on to a few exceptionally talented agents, has been so diluted with inexperience you can't count on getting a quality uc when you go the EUP for help. My office has just turned to state and locals for our uc's because the guys you want from the EUP are not the guys they offer. Our tracing and nibin is being challenged regularly. Our international programs have been left unsupported with personel and resources. Training has vanished. Chief Counsels office is corrupt. EEO numbers are the highest they've ever been. The Ombudsmans office is a Benedict Arnold to employees for management. PGA, I can't even go there without starting a new paragraph on incompetence.

You know that judgement day is near when INS and Customs BP are submitting as many gun cases to the US Attorney as ATF is on the southwest border, in some areas more. How can that be? In some of the major cities DEA is catching more guns than ATF and they don't even bother to call us to pick up their scraps anymore.

Here's a kicker. The Grapevine says OIG recently audited ATF's Project Gunrunner and we got laid out bad. No surprises there when you have Hoover, Chait, Webb, Newell and Torres calling the shots on that program. How did DOJ leave these guys with the keys to the car? A perfect storm of incompetence. Mismanagement, false promises, inaffective leadership, funding fraud-waste-abuse are just of few of the lowlights that are going to be brought to the attention of DOJ and Congress by the OIG. But, do any of these guys even care? They've all been accused and found guilty of mismanagement in the past and they are all still in their comfy spots unchallenged and unchanged. Their incompetency simply doesn't matter to them or apparently anyone of influence at DOJ.

With our current leadership at the helm ATF will soon be left with the SRT guarding NRT scenes while the explosives and gun agents will become court baliffs or counting bullets in the FBI's basement. If you love ATF say a little prayer tonight that we are allowed to keep our explosives jurisdiction. We just can't afford to lose that battle at this time. The consequences of a defeat on explosives is very critical at this time for the survival of ATF.



I hate to be the bearer of bad news. I hate to predict a tragedy. I hate to be the one that forsees or fortells a tragic future. I feel compelled to and I feel that I must say this. If we continue on the same path, ATF, as we know it will cease to exist. Can you say......Rogue? This is exactly where we are going! This is exactly where we are going to end up. Someone equated ATF to the Titanic running into an iceberg. Someone else said that all our leadership does is re-arrange the chairs on the Titanic (ATF). If our leadership does not change its evil ways, it will not be because of websites like this that expose ATF's dirty laundry and dirty little secrets, it will be as a consequence of the decisions that our leadership makes on a daily basis to mismanage, abuse, and waste the resources that have been provided for ATF to carry out its mission. It is no coincidence that we find ourselves in a fight for our very own DNA (explosives jurisdiction). Fight as we might, it is only matter of time until this is settled and I doubt it will be in our favor because this has been going on for a very long time. If it were going to go in our favor, it would have gone in our favor a long time ago. It is going to take a miracle to get us where we need to be.

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#1267 Guest_Jumper_*

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 11:04 PM

It seems that we will soon find out who has the explosive jurisdiction, ATF or FBI?? Why does ATF have to fight for the jursidiction that is contained in its name???? Is this madness or what??

If we lose our explosives jurisdiction it will be because Hoover, Chait and Reihl are asleep at the wheel. HQ is so busy with their dirty laundry of personel issues that they can no longer watch the house. Melson is out of the picture. He's clearly a non-factor in anything of substance at ATF. Constant calls for his attention are fruitless. Forget it, the guy is not in the game. Hoover has been severely distracted with his own personal issues. Chait simply can't make a decision on anything to save his life. He just can't pull the trigger on anything regardless of how minor the decision.

How do we as ATF even end up in a position to have our explosives jurisdiction challenged? Reihl come on man, someone's got to know what they're doing. Don't tell us the FBI is going to beat you on this.

I believe the last three things ATF does well are arson, explosives and our SRT's. I am not a member of any of those clubs but they are good. Our arson guys are top notch. Our explosives crews are excellent. Our tactical squads are professional and exceptionally affective. I am a plain old agent so I criticize my own game when I say we just aren't as good as we use to be chasing guns. Our intelligence is confused. Our numbers of original cases are pathetic. We may be stapling PD's reports to ROI cover sheets and calling them cases but not all that long ago if you conducted your agent business that way you were viewed disgracefully. Now its all the rage. Our management is in shambles. The once reliable undercover pool, although still holding on to a few exceptionally talented agents, has been so diluted with inexperience you can't count on getting a quality uc when you go the EUP for help. My office has just turned to state and locals for our uc's because the guys you want from the EUP are not the guys they offer. Our tracing and nibin is being challenged regularly. Our international programs have been left unsupported with personel and resources. Training has vanished. Chief Counsels office is corrupt. EEO numbers are the highest they've ever been. The Ombudsmans office is a Benedict Arnold to employees for management. PGA, I can't even go there without starting a new paragraph on incompetence.

You know that judgement day is near when INS and Customs BP are submitting as many gun cases to the US Attorney as ATF is on the southwest border, in some areas more. How can that be? In some of the major cities DEA is catching more guns than ATF and they don't even bother to call us to pick up their scraps anymore.

Here's a kicker. The Grapevine says OIG recently audited ATF's Project Gunrunner and we got laid out bad. No surprises there when you have Hoover, Chait, Webb, Newell and Torres calling the shots on that program. How did DOJ leave these guys with the keys to the car? A perfect storm of incompetence. Mismanagement, false promises, inaffective leadership, funding fraud-waste-abuse are just of few of the lowlights that are going to be brought to the attention of DOJ and Congress by the OIG. But, do any of these guys even care? They've all been accused and found guilty of mismanagement in the past and they are all still in their comfy spots unchallenged and unchanged. Their incompetency simply doesn't matter to them or apparently anyone of influence at DOJ.

With our current leadership at the helm ATF will soon be left with the SRT guarding NRT scenes while the explosives and gun agents will become court baliffs or counting bullets in the FBI's basement. If you love ATF say a little prayer tonight that we are allowed to keep our explosives jurisdiction. We just can't afford to lose that battle at this time. The consequences of a defeat on explosives is very critical at this time for the survival of ATF.

#1268 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 07:35 PM

Thor good question and you are right, he is the result of bad leadership, that then breeds more bad leadership, which then puts this agency right where it is at the current time. Leadership or lack thereof is the root cause of most organizational problems, whether it be government or private industry. Unfortunately the public suffers in the case of government failure and does not reap the benefit of a terrifically dedicated workforce that continues to do more with less, overcome bad management, but is slowly being worn down. Want to know the solution, exploit the asset forfeiture fund, bring on a record number of TFO's to do the work. Essentially outsourcing agents jobs to contractors. That is not a knock on TFO's who do a terrific job and are an asset to ATF's mission.


We have not grown (Special Agent population) in 20 years. This really is shameful.

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#1269 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 07:26 PM

It seems that we will soon find out who has the explosive jurisdiction, ATF or FBI?? Why does ATF have to fight for the jursidiction that is contained in its name???? Is this madness or what??
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#1270 Patriot

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 06:17 AM

Thor good question and you are right, he is the result of bad leadership, that then breeds more bad leadership, which then puts this agency right where it is at the current time. Leadership or lack thereof is the root cause of most organizational problems, whether it be government or private industry. Unfortunately the public suffers in the case of government failure and does not reap the benefit of a terrifically dedicated workforce that continues to do more with less, overcome bad management, but is slowly being worn down. Want to know the solution, exploit the asset forfeiture fund, bring on a record number of TFO's to do the work. Essentially outsourcing agents jobs to contractors. That is not a knock on TFO's who do a terrific job and are an asset to ATF's mission.

#1271 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 12:19 AM

Marquez in not a bad guy. He may be in the wrong profession and clueless but he is a decent guy.


I must ask this question. How does a guy in the wrong profession and clueless becomes a GS-15??? I do not think that him not being a
bad guy or a decent guy is relevant. The concern is how does a guy that is in the wrong profession and clueless lead others that are in the right profession and have a clue?? What great leaders we have!!!???!!! If this guy does not have a clue and in the wrong profession, is this systemic througout our leadership? hmmmmmm.....I wonder.
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#1272 Doc Holiday

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 08:46 PM

Well there you have it. They are shooting up schools and citizens and we need to spend ANY time on securing our computer in SECURED ATF work space. Because our leaders got slammed for not properly ensuring property accountability and got caught.Locking the computers to the wall wont reduce the number of computers that go missing. What next, chain our guns to our wrists? Bet you someone gets a grade 14 for that one or maybe an SES.

#1273 Patriot

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 06:14 AM

When all seems hopeless there is always some comedic issue that will make you laugh. Apparently one of the burning issues in ATF is laptop security so a policy has been crafted that is laughable and I quote "All users must utilize the cable locks provided, in order to ensure the security of unattended workstations while in the workplace. Workstations must be locked to a fixed stationary object or the building itself and the cable lock key must be stored in a locked location" I assume there is little faith in the secure office concept, alarms, cameras etc. Who are we preventing from stealing our laptops, co-workers? Have we risen to that level of mistrust?Apparently we have to have rings installed in the walls to loop the cable locks through in order to be in compliance with the policy, since nothing else is fixed in place. I wonder at what expense? Probably written by the same person who thinks we can remember all our passwords without writing them somewhere, also in violation of a policy. Can we apply some common sense and focus on what is important to our mission. Lack of leadership and oversight empowers people top create policies that are unreasonable, impossible to follow and in the end designed to allow management to create distance from controversy.

#1274 Patriot

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 06:07 AM

Marquez in not a bad guy. He may be in the wrong profession and clueless but he is a decent guy.

#1275 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 02:58 AM

It seems that ATF's Personnel or Human Resource Department is under the gun. HR is constantly getting audited by OPM. As a matter of fact, there is an audit this week! Could this be for the many inconsistencies and "hook ups" and "cover ups" that HR has been involved in?? Helen Oates, an HR manager or supervisor is at the center of this hurricane. She's a good ol' Texas rattle snake! Better keep your distance or she just might bite ya! The integrity and ethics of HR is down in the gutter and is nothing but sewage to put it mildly. I hope OPM will hold them accountable. We wonder why ATF can not get its own hiring authority nor hire 400 qualified employees when we get 1000s of qualified applicants. Will things ever get better?? :blink: :unsure:
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#1276 Doc Holiday

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 11:11 PM

Our sytem is broken. Our leaders have ignored, decieved and lied to the American People, Congress numerous times and continue to misrepresent our capabilities. Now we are at risk of losing our explosive jurisdiction because Mr. Carter, Mr. Hoover and Riehl have ignored and poorly addressed the nations explosive jurisdictions. Glenn Fine the Inspector General for the Department of Justice illustrated how poorly in his recent testimony before a subcommitee on Homeland security. Conspicuously missing from the Table, anyone from ATF. There was a DOJ Deputy there, there was an FBI Executive staff memeber there. There was No one there to defend ATF. The IG stated unequivocally that ATF has fallen short of prior recommendations and has directed DOJ to handle this matter. I wonder whose side most consideration will fall on. It might be ATF, but probably not. We wish it would but no one from our team showed up. The IG was in Mexico all last week and now they are auditing ATFs response to our commitment to border violence. Care to guess what they found out? Smoke and mirrors. Billy and crew along with Mr. Melson have promised everything to everyone regarding border violence. We have been given direction AND funding for just that reason. However, it seems ATF still only has 5% of our field strength on or near the border. They refuse the impliment the Mexican NIBIN program and continue to avoid answering WHY. Mr. Melson, there are 2000 Agents and 3000 other dedicated employees. We are speaking up. ARE YOU LISTENING?????? You are right, words are powerful. If you are not here to advance this agency, if you do not understand this dynamic agency. Please ask to be reassigned and stop running this Bureau into the ground. WE LOVE ATF, you sir are just a visitor.

#1277 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 01:47 AM

Yeah, I heard Marquez is up in Boston wreaking havoc on his subordinate supervisors. They may need a break!



I guess Marquez will continue to wreak havoc since he did not get that HQ SAC job he wanted.
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Posted 07 March 2010 - 11:01 PM

Quotations are from the the below posting.

"I spoke with Steve Martin last week about this after having several conversations with B and Richatd Hurst." Is the "B" Loos refers to Billy Hoover?

"As we briefly discussed, there are whistleblower issues in this matter and Richard is quite sensitive to them. As you might guess, Steve is troubled by this and wants to discuss it further with Richard." Translated: Steve Martin is troubled by his or his subordinates handling of a whistleblower employee. He wants to discuss their mistakes with an ATF attorney. Why? Read on.

"By discussing the issue with Richard, all discussions would be confidential should future litigation arise." Translated: If you get caught dirty just discuss it with an ATF attorney and then your words and actions can be protected under a fabricated attorney-client privlidge. A lesson from ATF's Chief Ethics Attorney: plan ahead for litigation by securing your attorney-client privlige now. More...

"Richard has been on leave, however, so this conversation hasn't occurred." Translated: Loos is advising her "client" that until the attorney-client conversation can take place no protection is in place. Or, the conversation in her email hasn't taken place. Either - or, this smells bad.

They really should be more careful about what they let leak out to the field. We may not be high and mighty attorneys but we're not stupid. And, there's a lot more of these types of messages in agents possession that display the backroom espionage that is conducted against field employees. As promised, there is always more to come.

#1279 Doc Holiday

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 05:57 PM

The following surfaced as text taken directly from an email between Ms. Loos, SAC Steve Martin, and SFFD counsel. The typos resulted from a faulty scan of the doc. I think you can gleen what was going on in this recent case enough so that you will be sick to your stomach. Prepare for knowing whitewashs and coverups if you go down this road. This is the most blatant example of their arrogance. I spoke with Steve Martin last week about this after having several conversations with B and Richatd Hurst. It won't be possible to give you the real flavor of these conversations .. Richard's view is that the letter of clearance that SA XXXXX received resolves ALL issues raised during the investigation including matters not specifically addressed in the OPSRO ROI. As we briefly discussed, there are whistleblower issues in this matter and Richard is quite sensitive to them. As you might guess, Steve is troubled by this and wants to discuss it further with Richard. By discussing the issue with Richard, all discussions would be confidential should future litigation arise. He also has some concerns with the restrictions placed upon XXXXX by Don at the inception of the matter. Richard has been on leave, however, so this conversation hasn't occurred. I'm in Seattle this week at Counsel's national conference and Richard's attending. Steve asked me to give him a heads-up when he can contact him. MR. MELSON, WE ARE SPEAKING UP. WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO?

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 04:24 PM

When a lower-tiered employee files a complaint against a manager (whether it be a grievance or EEO complaint) how often does ATF's Chief Counsels Office and E.Loos come running to that managers defense? Everytime. When a manager alleges wrongdoing against a lower-tiered employee how often does ATF's Chief Counsels Office and Loos come running to that employees defense? Never. Is Chief Counsels Office and Loos tasked to provide legal guidance for the benefit of ATF, or only ATF managers? Does Chief Counsels Office and Loos ever examine the facts of the complaints from either side before they/she draw their line in the sand. No. In their minds managers are alawys right, innocent or falsely accused. Agents are always wrong, guilty and "got caught". How many managers have been provided free legal counsel by ATF and Loos even though they were guilty? I don't know the number but I am certain it is massive. How many agents have been provided free legal counsel when allegations have been made against them by management? Again, with near certainty, I would say never. Let me ask all agents, administrative employees and industry employees a question. Do you feel that in the eyes of ATF's Chief Counsels Office and the Chief Ethics Attorney Loos you as a lower-tiered employee are considered a part of this agency? ATF Chief Counsels Office and Loos will ALWAYS defend management first and foremost, right or wrong, regardless of the facts. Lower tiered employees who complain will always be subjected to hostile work enviornments, reprisals, retaliations in all shapes and forms. Why wouldn't managers follow Loos's every word and piece of advise. She covers up their mistakes and defends them when they can't be covered up. If any of you from a probationary new hire to Acting Director Melson think that Chief Counsels Office and Loos don't administer nearly every element of this agency then you are kidding yourself. I'm sorry. This is not a perfect, fair or just world at ATF. It is just the way it is. As one of our newly appointed SAC's pointed out to his agents a few years back, "It is institutional and historical at ATF. There is nothing I can do to change that. Either live with it or quit."

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 01:49 PM

We as field employees have entrusted our leadership to first; make decisions that are best for ATF and second; make decisions that are best for us as individuals. The agency always has to come first otherwise the direction of ATF will be catered to a multitude of individual needs and wants. The problem is that our leaders have not shown they can even handle the small things right. We can’t trust them to follow the rules when they order their cars, refrain from engaging in sexual relationships with subordinates, or are asked to simply tell the truth to investigators or while under oath.. They haven’t been able to find the inner integrity to treat the agencies personnel with consistency. When agents are hammered for the very misdeeds that executives are given passes for the double standard crushes the hopes of fairness. If our leaders can’t be trusted to fairly and consistently address all of us with equality then how can we trust them with a billion dollars of taxpayer money to run ATF? They have failed us on the small things but turn and ask us to blindly trust them with the big stuff. Based on what? If you can’t be trusted to sweep the floor then how can you be be trusted to run the company? Our leaders have forgotten how to "sweep the floor" and some, maybe most, never knew how in the first place. We have placed trust in all the directors, their executives, the attorney’s, and the mid-levels to justified and consistent in all their business. If a boss is consistently harsh I can live with that. I know what to expect, what his or her standard is and if harshness is administered across the board then at least it is consistent to all. The way these guys do business is to show favoritism and leniency to their friends and destroy those perceived as outsiders. Can anyone offer an argument that this is not true? Can anyone offer a single example of an executive receiving the same treatment and punishment for the same “crime” as a field employee? The lower level always gets it worse. Can anyone show a single example of an executive being held to a higher standard than the subordinates they manage? Leadership starts at the top. If Melson expects ATF to change from the bottom up every single historical example from business to the military will show that this does not happen. Double standards, consistent ignorance of lowers complaints and issues and complete lack of concern for the workers is what mutinies are made of. Integrity is most simply described as doing the right thing when no one is watching or will likely ever see what you have done. How many of ATF’s leaders from the mid-levels to the executives do any of us believe could, or would adhere to this principle? Example after example shows that they will try to get away with whatever they think they can and when they get caught they lie about it and circle the wagons with little to no accountablity. If this wasn't true they they wouldn't be caught sucking up to the Director by doing his nephews homework, screwing their subordinate at the office or in their g-rides, ordering Cadillacs instead of Chryslers, parking their g-rides in front of topless bars during work hours, fabricating documents to frame agents in order to win legal disputes, covering up lost property, lying under oath, ignoring legitmate complaints and allowing them to turn into legal disputes, and on and on and on. Lets see some of these big shots be given a taste of we are use to. You, Mr. Executive, misuse a g-ride, head to the beach for a month or so with no pay. You lie under oath you get handed termination paperwork and figure out where to find an attorney to fight for you job (and pay for it). You're alleged to be nailing the help then answer up to all the questions under oath of whether that took place on government time, in a government car, in a government funded office or in any way had any nexus to government funds (i.e. were you in travel status, TDY or in temp housing during your escapades?). They can't and won't hold themselves to these standards because they can't bare the burden of what they have consistently placed on their agents. On the other hand they've had no problem holding me or you to them. If any or all of these situations apply to you as a supervisor then take your free pass, just don't try to sell us on your leadership.

#1282 Doc Holiday

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 11:50 AM

Was anything ever done to SAC Horace regarding his misrepresentation to IA about his car being stolen? Is it true IA can no longer produce the IA files which got him and Tony Woo relieved of duties in Seattle? Was the information that SAC Horaces car was towed from a strip club during duty hours FALSE. If anybody know, we would like to be clear on this practice of covering up the bosses indiscretions while pouncing on the fields oversight. What is the difference between "lack of candor" and "Lying". Is that a response to the OSC finding that newly appointed SAC Richardson was found to lack any candor when interviewed multiple times? When I came on the job, lack of candor and lying was the same. They just changed that standard on the newly released table of penalty's. Do they really think we don't see this? They added misuse of bus tokens, but lowered the bar for truthful sworn testimony. Am I the only one seeing this?

#1283 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 05:32 AM

Simple question. Is IA persuing investigations against Carter, Hoover, Crenshaw, Gillette and others for their "alleged" inappropriate sexual relationships with subordinates? Yes or no? Its that simple. If IA is not, why not? These people have never hesitated to order investigations into field employees for the same alleged indiscretions. So again, why not? Can Melson give them the pass that they failed to give others for the same conduct? Is that how they are going to circle the executive wagons but issuing a new relationship disclosure policy?


These folks would be investigated by the OIG's Office but I doubt that there is anything going on with this. As someone said before, all these guys ever get are verbal reprimands. Even when they lie to the Director, all they get are stern verbal warnings. :angry: Nothing else!!
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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:13 PM

Simple question. Is IA persuing investigations against Carter, Hoover, Crenshaw, Gillette and others for their "alleged" inappropriate sexual relationships with subordinates? Yes or no? Its that simple. If IA is not, why not? These people have never hesitated to order investigations into field employees for the same alleged indiscretions. So again, why not? Can Melson give them the pass that they failed to give others for the same conduct? Is that how they are going to circle the executive wagons but issuing a new relationship disclosure policy?

#1285 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 05:46 PM

One can only hope that yet another inexperienced, unskilled yes man like Marquez is not placed in a position having bearing on the future of our Bureau. He was a mrginal agent, an ineffective supervisor and stands for nothing but his own advancement. You would be hard pressed to get him to explain what ATFs mission really is. Outside the agency'stated mission statement that is. At least Carlos Sanchez had done the job before fast tracking on the Edgar train. Is it true we now have a new policy regarding romantic issues between managers and subordinates? Was I the only one paying attention during agent training. Again Mr. Melson, Duh. The better answer is DEAL with the bosses bltantly abusing their power and having a great time at the Bureaus expense. Is this the Gillette, Crenshaw or Hoover policy. If they had been agents, their would not be a policy, just discipline.


Yeah, I heard Marquez is up in Boston wreaking havoc on his subordinate supervisors. They may need a break!
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#1286 Doc Holiday

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:02 AM

One can only hope that yet another inexperienced, unskilled yes man like Marquez is not placed in a position having bearing on the future of our Bureau. He was a mrginal agent, an ineffective supervisor and stands for nothing but his own advancement. You would be hard pressed to get him to explain what ATFs mission really is. Outside the agency'stated mission statement that is. At least Carlos Sanchez had done the job before fast tracking on the Edgar train. Is it true we now have a new policy regarding romantic issues between managers and subordinates? Was I the only one paying attention during agent training. Again Mr. Melson, Duh. The better answer is DEAL with the bosses bltantly abusing their power and having a great time at the Bureaus expense. Is this the Gillette, Crenshaw or Hoover policy. If they had been agents, their would not be a policy, just discipline.

#1287 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 10:04 PM

The latest rumor that I heard was that ASAC Marquez from Boston is interested in the SAC Internal Affairs post. Anyone heard that?
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Posted 28 February 2010 - 08:33 AM


Rumor: More coming out on executives being caught with their pants down, so to speak. (I have zero concern with how anyone leads their personal lives but when you've pointed fingers at others and you are engaged in the very same or worse conduct yourself that don't fly.)



Rumor: Several members of Congress are stareing real hard at ATF and beginning to finally ask the hard questions.


I respectfully disagree. A boss sleeping with a subordinate is wrong. A married agent who becomes that group's supervisor and then is acting ASAC for almost a year, sleeping with the AUSA who handles his group's cases, that's wrong. A married agent sleeping with someone who is not their spouse -- well, you took a vow to remain faithful to your spouse, and you broke that vow. I can't trust you to watch my back and I can't trust you to do the right thing. But that's my opinion, and it doesn't necessarily mean I'm right and you're wrong.

And when someone finds out who in Congress is looking at ATF, please let the rest of us know so we can tell them out stories.

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 02:56 AM

Rumors being what they are; There is no secret that Billy has always wanted and been slated to takeover the Washington Field division. That raise several new ethical questions. How does ATF/Loos leave an entire field division void of any meaningful leadership for a year or more? What kind of settlement agreement is that? Domenench Must have threatened to bring the house down. He should have been paid and told leave our agency and never to return, based solely on the fact that he was an abusive leader, allowed others under his command to be abusive leaders, AND he was a coward when he "blew his whistle" anonymously. No room for cowards in the greatest law enforcement agency since the beginning of time.The agency is NOT favorable to his return.You got your money Edgar, and judgeing by your performance as DD and Acting Director, self promotion is all you REALLY cared about. After the way Mr. Hoover conducted himself throughout his tenor, is he really the best choice to slide in to DC Field Div.? Leave him where hes at. If Bouchard and Vanessa could hold down that job, Billy should be able to make it to retirement as well.



Mr. Domemenech knows where all of the "dead bodies" are and were buried. This is a reason that they settled with him. He did not have a case. The agency settled because of the potentially embarrassing information that could come out of this suit.
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#1290 Doc Holiday

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 09:24 AM

Rumors being what they are; There is no secret that Billy has always wanted and been slated to takeover the Washington Field division. That raise several new ethical questions. How does ATF/Loos leave an entire field division void of any meaningful leadership for a year or more? What kind of settlement agreement is that? Domenench Must have threatened to bring the house down. He should have been paid and told leave our agency and never to return, based solely on the fact that he was an abusive leader, allowed others under his command to be abusive leaders, AND he was a coward when he "blew his whistle" anonymously. No room for cowards in the greatest law enforcement agency since the beginning of time.The agency is NOT favorable to his return.You got your money Edgar, and judgeing by your performance as DD and Acting Director, self promotion is all you REALLY cared about. After the way Mr. Hoover conducted himself throughout his tenor, is he really the best choice to slide in to DC Field Div.? Leave him where hes at. If Bouchard and Vanessa could hold down that job, Billy should be able to make it to retirement as well. The misappropriated being recalled is the proper action and a good FIRST step, (as if they had a choice). Now, what about accountability? Have those who thought it acceptable to frivolously waste tax payers money been demoted or removed from their position? I know of Agents who have been found to have questionable charges on their G credit card in the hundreds of dollars, who were terminated or at least it was proposed. What does a Cadi go for these days? Really Boss, CADILLACS? IA not pursuing significant violations by managers is nothing new. Chase and Sanchez and Krenshaw didn't leave so hastily because they were doing such a great job and the OIG thought they ran a great shop. Obstruction of Justice is commonplace within the Bureau when they are exposed to any liability which may slow a particular managers rise.Redact, delay and deny. These are the actions of criminals, not transparent law enforcement executives. Again, this agency is being run by lawyers, not investigators. It is not a rumor that there are members of the House and Senate reviewing the unethical practices and the sheer mismanagement within this agency. This will hopefully result in some subpoenas for field agents and supervisors to give them the TRUE state of affairs at ATF.

#1291 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:05 PM

Rumor: Melson is simply waiting for Domenech to complete his war college so he can fulfill a contractual agreement that guaranteed the Washington Field Division SAC job would remain open until Edgar graduates. Then he is going to hand over the keys at the WFD to Hoover.

Rumor: The misappropriated executive Cadillacs are being recalled.

Rumor: More coming out on executives being caught with their pants down, so to speak. (I have zero concern with how anyone leads their personal lives but when you've pointed fingers at others and you are engaged in the very same or worse conduct yourself that don't fly.)

Rumor: An outside watchdog agency is looking into obstruction of justice allegations against three SAC's and an ex-ASAC for their overzealous part in attempting to deny an ATF agent’s witness participation in an FBI RICO/Murder trial. Seems the agent was not on the “favorite son” list and these guys went overboard in smearing him to keep him off the stand without cause. We hear that ATF IA caught the complaint but "the boys club" ignored it and its moveing up the food chain.

Rumor: Big trouble is brewing in the west coast field divisions and a badly mismanaged Midwest division. Big trouble means BIG trouble. Like WTF trouble.

Rumor: Several members of Congress are stareing real hard at ATF and beginning to finally ask the hard questions.

The sources on these rumors are not always right but 90% of the time is a pretty good track record.



The Domenech rumor was true but do not know if that has changed with Hoover's appoitment to the created position. The rumor also is that Domenech may return if their is a more favorable adminsitration towards him."

On the congressional members, I would welcome the scrutiny and would like to see the executives answer the tough questions on the Hill and stop bs. This is the reason that we can not grow and do not get more $$$$ in our budget.

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 05:33 PM

Rumor: Melson is simply waiting for Domenech to complete his war college so he can fulfill a contractual agreement that guaranteed the Washington Field Division SAC job would remain open until Edgar graduates. Then he is going to hand over the keys at the WFD to Hoover. Rumor: The misappropriated executive Cadillacs are being recalled. Rumor: More coming out on executives being caught with their pants down, so to speak. (I have zero concern with how anyone leads their personal lives but when you've pointed fingers at others and you are engaged in the very same or worse conduct yourself that don't fly.) Rumor: An outside watchdog agency is looking into obstruction of justice allegations against three SAC's and an ex-ASAC for their overzealous part in attempting to deny an ATF agent’s witness participation in an FBI RICO/Murder trial. Seems the agent was not on the “favorite son” list and these guys went overboard in smearing him to keep him off the stand without cause. We hear that ATF IA caught the complaint but "the boys club" ignored it and its moveing up the food chain. Rumor: Big trouble is brewing in the west coast field divisions and a badly mismanaged Midwest division. Big trouble means BIG trouble. Like WTF trouble. Rumor: Several members of Congress are stareing real hard at ATF and beginning to finally ask the hard questions. The sources on these rumors are not always right but 90% of the time is a pretty good track record.




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