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#1301 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 01:47 AM

Yeah, I heard Marquez is up in Boston wreaking havoc on his subordinate supervisors. They may need a break!



I guess Marquez will continue to wreak havoc since he did not get that HQ SAC job he wanted.
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Posted 07 March 2010 - 11:01 PM

Quotations are from the the below posting.

"I spoke with Steve Martin last week about this after having several conversations with B and Richatd Hurst." Is the "B" Loos refers to Billy Hoover?

"As we briefly discussed, there are whistleblower issues in this matter and Richard is quite sensitive to them. As you might guess, Steve is troubled by this and wants to discuss it further with Richard." Translated: Steve Martin is troubled by his or his subordinates handling of a whistleblower employee. He wants to discuss their mistakes with an ATF attorney. Why? Read on.

"By discussing the issue with Richard, all discussions would be confidential should future litigation arise." Translated: If you get caught dirty just discuss it with an ATF attorney and then your words and actions can be protected under a fabricated attorney-client privlidge. A lesson from ATF's Chief Ethics Attorney: plan ahead for litigation by securing your attorney-client privlige now. More...

"Richard has been on leave, however, so this conversation hasn't occurred." Translated: Loos is advising her "client" that until the attorney-client conversation can take place no protection is in place. Or, the conversation in her email hasn't taken place. Either - or, this smells bad.

They really should be more careful about what they let leak out to the field. We may not be high and mighty attorneys but we're not stupid. And, there's a lot more of these types of messages in agents possession that display the backroom espionage that is conducted against field employees. As promised, there is always more to come.

#1303 Doc Holiday

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 05:57 PM

The following surfaced as text taken directly from an email between Ms. Loos, SAC Steve Martin, and SFFD counsel. The typos resulted from a faulty scan of the doc. I think you can gleen what was going on in this recent case enough so that you will be sick to your stomach. Prepare for knowing whitewashs and coverups if you go down this road. This is the most blatant example of their arrogance. I spoke with Steve Martin last week about this after having several conversations with B and Richatd Hurst. It won't be possible to give you the real flavor of these conversations .. Richard's view is that the letter of clearance that SA XXXXX received resolves ALL issues raised during the investigation including matters not specifically addressed in the OPSRO ROI. As we briefly discussed, there are whistleblower issues in this matter and Richard is quite sensitive to them. As you might guess, Steve is troubled by this and wants to discuss it further with Richard. By discussing the issue with Richard, all discussions would be confidential should future litigation arise. He also has some concerns with the restrictions placed upon XXXXX by Don at the inception of the matter. Richard has been on leave, however, so this conversation hasn't occurred. I'm in Seattle this week at Counsel's national conference and Richard's attending. Steve asked me to give him a heads-up when he can contact him. MR. MELSON, WE ARE SPEAKING UP. WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO?

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 04:24 PM

When a lower-tiered employee files a complaint against a manager (whether it be a grievance or EEO complaint) how often does ATF's Chief Counsels Office and E.Loos come running to that managers defense? Everytime. When a manager alleges wrongdoing against a lower-tiered employee how often does ATF's Chief Counsels Office and Loos come running to that employees defense? Never. Is Chief Counsels Office and Loos tasked to provide legal guidance for the benefit of ATF, or only ATF managers? Does Chief Counsels Office and Loos ever examine the facts of the complaints from either side before they/she draw their line in the sand. No. In their minds managers are alawys right, innocent or falsely accused. Agents are always wrong, guilty and "got caught". How many managers have been provided free legal counsel by ATF and Loos even though they were guilty? I don't know the number but I am certain it is massive. How many agents have been provided free legal counsel when allegations have been made against them by management? Again, with near certainty, I would say never. Let me ask all agents, administrative employees and industry employees a question. Do you feel that in the eyes of ATF's Chief Counsels Office and the Chief Ethics Attorney Loos you as a lower-tiered employee are considered a part of this agency? ATF Chief Counsels Office and Loos will ALWAYS defend management first and foremost, right or wrong, regardless of the facts. Lower tiered employees who complain will always be subjected to hostile work enviornments, reprisals, retaliations in all shapes and forms. Why wouldn't managers follow Loos's every word and piece of advise. She covers up their mistakes and defends them when they can't be covered up. If any of you from a probationary new hire to Acting Director Melson think that Chief Counsels Office and Loos don't administer nearly every element of this agency then you are kidding yourself. I'm sorry. This is not a perfect, fair or just world at ATF. It is just the way it is. As one of our newly appointed SAC's pointed out to his agents a few years back, "It is institutional and historical at ATF. There is nothing I can do to change that. Either live with it or quit."

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 01:49 PM

We as field employees have entrusted our leadership to first; make decisions that are best for ATF and second; make decisions that are best for us as individuals. The agency always has to come first otherwise the direction of ATF will be catered to a multitude of individual needs and wants. The problem is that our leaders have not shown they can even handle the small things right. We can’t trust them to follow the rules when they order their cars, refrain from engaging in sexual relationships with subordinates, or are asked to simply tell the truth to investigators or while under oath.. They haven’t been able to find the inner integrity to treat the agencies personnel with consistency. When agents are hammered for the very misdeeds that executives are given passes for the double standard crushes the hopes of fairness. If our leaders can’t be trusted to fairly and consistently address all of us with equality then how can we trust them with a billion dollars of taxpayer money to run ATF? They have failed us on the small things but turn and ask us to blindly trust them with the big stuff. Based on what? If you can’t be trusted to sweep the floor then how can you be be trusted to run the company? Our leaders have forgotten how to "sweep the floor" and some, maybe most, never knew how in the first place. We have placed trust in all the directors, their executives, the attorney’s, and the mid-levels to justified and consistent in all their business. If a boss is consistently harsh I can live with that. I know what to expect, what his or her standard is and if harshness is administered across the board then at least it is consistent to all. The way these guys do business is to show favoritism and leniency to their friends and destroy those perceived as outsiders. Can anyone offer an argument that this is not true? Can anyone offer a single example of an executive receiving the same treatment and punishment for the same “crime” as a field employee? The lower level always gets it worse. Can anyone show a single example of an executive being held to a higher standard than the subordinates they manage? Leadership starts at the top. If Melson expects ATF to change from the bottom up every single historical example from business to the military will show that this does not happen. Double standards, consistent ignorance of lowers complaints and issues and complete lack of concern for the workers is what mutinies are made of. Integrity is most simply described as doing the right thing when no one is watching or will likely ever see what you have done. How many of ATF’s leaders from the mid-levels to the executives do any of us believe could, or would adhere to this principle? Example after example shows that they will try to get away with whatever they think they can and when they get caught they lie about it and circle the wagons with little to no accountablity. If this wasn't true they they wouldn't be caught sucking up to the Director by doing his nephews homework, screwing their subordinate at the office or in their g-rides, ordering Cadillacs instead of Chryslers, parking their g-rides in front of topless bars during work hours, fabricating documents to frame agents in order to win legal disputes, covering up lost property, lying under oath, ignoring legitmate complaints and allowing them to turn into legal disputes, and on and on and on. Lets see some of these big shots be given a taste of we are use to. You, Mr. Executive, misuse a g-ride, head to the beach for a month or so with no pay. You lie under oath you get handed termination paperwork and figure out where to find an attorney to fight for you job (and pay for it). You're alleged to be nailing the help then answer up to all the questions under oath of whether that took place on government time, in a government car, in a government funded office or in any way had any nexus to government funds (i.e. were you in travel status, TDY or in temp housing during your escapades?). They can't and won't hold themselves to these standards because they can't bare the burden of what they have consistently placed on their agents. On the other hand they've had no problem holding me or you to them. If any or all of these situations apply to you as a supervisor then take your free pass, just don't try to sell us on your leadership.

#1306 Doc Holiday

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 11:50 AM

Was anything ever done to SAC Horace regarding his misrepresentation to IA about his car being stolen? Is it true IA can no longer produce the IA files which got him and Tony Woo relieved of duties in Seattle? Was the information that SAC Horaces car was towed from a strip club during duty hours FALSE. If anybody know, we would like to be clear on this practice of covering up the bosses indiscretions while pouncing on the fields oversight. What is the difference between "lack of candor" and "Lying". Is that a response to the OSC finding that newly appointed SAC Richardson was found to lack any candor when interviewed multiple times? When I came on the job, lack of candor and lying was the same. They just changed that standard on the newly released table of penalty's. Do they really think we don't see this? They added misuse of bus tokens, but lowered the bar for truthful sworn testimony. Am I the only one seeing this?

#1307 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 05:32 AM

Simple question. Is IA persuing investigations against Carter, Hoover, Crenshaw, Gillette and others for their "alleged" inappropriate sexual relationships with subordinates? Yes or no? Its that simple. If IA is not, why not? These people have never hesitated to order investigations into field employees for the same alleged indiscretions. So again, why not? Can Melson give them the pass that they failed to give others for the same conduct? Is that how they are going to circle the executive wagons but issuing a new relationship disclosure policy?


These folks would be investigated by the OIG's Office but I doubt that there is anything going on with this. As someone said before, all these guys ever get are verbal reprimands. Even when they lie to the Director, all they get are stern verbal warnings. :angry: Nothing else!!
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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:13 PM

Simple question. Is IA persuing investigations against Carter, Hoover, Crenshaw, Gillette and others for their "alleged" inappropriate sexual relationships with subordinates? Yes or no? Its that simple. If IA is not, why not? These people have never hesitated to order investigations into field employees for the same alleged indiscretions. So again, why not? Can Melson give them the pass that they failed to give others for the same conduct? Is that how they are going to circle the executive wagons but issuing a new relationship disclosure policy?

#1309 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 05:46 PM

One can only hope that yet another inexperienced, unskilled yes man like Marquez is not placed in a position having bearing on the future of our Bureau. He was a mrginal agent, an ineffective supervisor and stands for nothing but his own advancement. You would be hard pressed to get him to explain what ATFs mission really is. Outside the agency'stated mission statement that is. At least Carlos Sanchez had done the job before fast tracking on the Edgar train. Is it true we now have a new policy regarding romantic issues between managers and subordinates? Was I the only one paying attention during agent training. Again Mr. Melson, Duh. The better answer is DEAL with the bosses bltantly abusing their power and having a great time at the Bureaus expense. Is this the Gillette, Crenshaw or Hoover policy. If they had been agents, their would not be a policy, just discipline.


Yeah, I heard Marquez is up in Boston wreaking havoc on his subordinate supervisors. They may need a break!
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#1310 Doc Holiday

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:02 AM

One can only hope that yet another inexperienced, unskilled yes man like Marquez is not placed in a position having bearing on the future of our Bureau. He was a mrginal agent, an ineffective supervisor and stands for nothing but his own advancement. You would be hard pressed to get him to explain what ATFs mission really is. Outside the agency'stated mission statement that is. At least Carlos Sanchez had done the job before fast tracking on the Edgar train. Is it true we now have a new policy regarding romantic issues between managers and subordinates? Was I the only one paying attention during agent training. Again Mr. Melson, Duh. The better answer is DEAL with the bosses bltantly abusing their power and having a great time at the Bureaus expense. Is this the Gillette, Crenshaw or Hoover policy. If they had been agents, their would not be a policy, just discipline.

#1311 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 10:04 PM

The latest rumor that I heard was that ASAC Marquez from Boston is interested in the SAC Internal Affairs post. Anyone heard that?
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#1312 abteilung

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 08:33 AM


Rumor: More coming out on executives being caught with their pants down, so to speak. (I have zero concern with how anyone leads their personal lives but when you've pointed fingers at others and you are engaged in the very same or worse conduct yourself that don't fly.)



Rumor: Several members of Congress are stareing real hard at ATF and beginning to finally ask the hard questions.


I respectfully disagree. A boss sleeping with a subordinate is wrong. A married agent who becomes that group's supervisor and then is acting ASAC for almost a year, sleeping with the AUSA who handles his group's cases, that's wrong. A married agent sleeping with someone who is not their spouse -- well, you took a vow to remain faithful to your spouse, and you broke that vow. I can't trust you to watch my back and I can't trust you to do the right thing. But that's my opinion, and it doesn't necessarily mean I'm right and you're wrong.

And when someone finds out who in Congress is looking at ATF, please let the rest of us know so we can tell them out stories.

#1313 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 02:56 AM

Rumors being what they are; There is no secret that Billy has always wanted and been slated to takeover the Washington Field division. That raise several new ethical questions. How does ATF/Loos leave an entire field division void of any meaningful leadership for a year or more? What kind of settlement agreement is that? Domenench Must have threatened to bring the house down. He should have been paid and told leave our agency and never to return, based solely on the fact that he was an abusive leader, allowed others under his command to be abusive leaders, AND he was a coward when he "blew his whistle" anonymously. No room for cowards in the greatest law enforcement agency since the beginning of time.The agency is NOT favorable to his return.You got your money Edgar, and judgeing by your performance as DD and Acting Director, self promotion is all you REALLY cared about. After the way Mr. Hoover conducted himself throughout his tenor, is he really the best choice to slide in to DC Field Div.? Leave him where hes at. If Bouchard and Vanessa could hold down that job, Billy should be able to make it to retirement as well.



Mr. Domemenech knows where all of the "dead bodies" are and were buried. This is a reason that they settled with him. He did not have a case. The agency settled because of the potentially embarrassing information that could come out of this suit.
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#1314 Doc Holiday

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 09:24 AM

Rumors being what they are; There is no secret that Billy has always wanted and been slated to takeover the Washington Field division. That raise several new ethical questions. How does ATF/Loos leave an entire field division void of any meaningful leadership for a year or more? What kind of settlement agreement is that? Domenench Must have threatened to bring the house down. He should have been paid and told leave our agency and never to return, based solely on the fact that he was an abusive leader, allowed others under his command to be abusive leaders, AND he was a coward when he "blew his whistle" anonymously. No room for cowards in the greatest law enforcement agency since the beginning of time.The agency is NOT favorable to his return.You got your money Edgar, and judgeing by your performance as DD and Acting Director, self promotion is all you REALLY cared about. After the way Mr. Hoover conducted himself throughout his tenor, is he really the best choice to slide in to DC Field Div.? Leave him where hes at. If Bouchard and Vanessa could hold down that job, Billy should be able to make it to retirement as well. The misappropriated being recalled is the proper action and a good FIRST step, (as if they had a choice). Now, what about accountability? Have those who thought it acceptable to frivolously waste tax payers money been demoted or removed from their position? I know of Agents who have been found to have questionable charges on their G credit card in the hundreds of dollars, who were terminated or at least it was proposed. What does a Cadi go for these days? Really Boss, CADILLACS? IA not pursuing significant violations by managers is nothing new. Chase and Sanchez and Krenshaw didn't leave so hastily because they were doing such a great job and the OIG thought they ran a great shop. Obstruction of Justice is commonplace within the Bureau when they are exposed to any liability which may slow a particular managers rise.Redact, delay and deny. These are the actions of criminals, not transparent law enforcement executives. Again, this agency is being run by lawyers, not investigators. It is not a rumor that there are members of the House and Senate reviewing the unethical practices and the sheer mismanagement within this agency. This will hopefully result in some subpoenas for field agents and supervisors to give them the TRUE state of affairs at ATF.

#1315 Thor God of Thunder

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:05 PM

Rumor: Melson is simply waiting for Domenech to complete his war college so he can fulfill a contractual agreement that guaranteed the Washington Field Division SAC job would remain open until Edgar graduates. Then he is going to hand over the keys at the WFD to Hoover.

Rumor: The misappropriated executive Cadillacs are being recalled.

Rumor: More coming out on executives being caught with their pants down, so to speak. (I have zero concern with how anyone leads their personal lives but when you've pointed fingers at others and you are engaged in the very same or worse conduct yourself that don't fly.)

Rumor: An outside watchdog agency is looking into obstruction of justice allegations against three SAC's and an ex-ASAC for their overzealous part in attempting to deny an ATF agent’s witness participation in an FBI RICO/Murder trial. Seems the agent was not on the “favorite son” list and these guys went overboard in smearing him to keep him off the stand without cause. We hear that ATF IA caught the complaint but "the boys club" ignored it and its moveing up the food chain.

Rumor: Big trouble is brewing in the west coast field divisions and a badly mismanaged Midwest division. Big trouble means BIG trouble. Like WTF trouble.

Rumor: Several members of Congress are stareing real hard at ATF and beginning to finally ask the hard questions.

The sources on these rumors are not always right but 90% of the time is a pretty good track record.



The Domenech rumor was true but do not know if that has changed with Hoover's appoitment to the created position. The rumor also is that Domenech may return if their is a more favorable adminsitration towards him."

On the congressional members, I would welcome the scrutiny and would like to see the executives answer the tough questions on the Hill and stop bs. This is the reason that we can not grow and do not get more $$$$ in our budget.

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 05:33 PM

Rumor: Melson is simply waiting for Domenech to complete his war college so he can fulfill a contractual agreement that guaranteed the Washington Field Division SAC job would remain open until Edgar graduates. Then he is going to hand over the keys at the WFD to Hoover. Rumor: The misappropriated executive Cadillacs are being recalled. Rumor: More coming out on executives being caught with their pants down, so to speak. (I have zero concern with how anyone leads their personal lives but when you've pointed fingers at others and you are engaged in the very same or worse conduct yourself that don't fly.) Rumor: An outside watchdog agency is looking into obstruction of justice allegations against three SAC's and an ex-ASAC for their overzealous part in attempting to deny an ATF agent’s witness participation in an FBI RICO/Murder trial. Seems the agent was not on the “favorite son” list and these guys went overboard in smearing him to keep him off the stand without cause. We hear that ATF IA caught the complaint but "the boys club" ignored it and its moveing up the food chain. Rumor: Big trouble is brewing in the west coast field divisions and a badly mismanaged Midwest division. Big trouble means BIG trouble. Like WTF trouble. Rumor: Several members of Congress are stareing real hard at ATF and beginning to finally ask the hard questions. The sources on these rumors are not always right but 90% of the time is a pretty good track record.




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