ATFTRUTHTELLER

Read the complete sentences bro. I said IF, then you are a moron. Its your kind of linear thinking that insures failed or marginalized cases. Take his guns, (as you recall almost ALL of the straw purchasers guns had already been traced to violence in Mexico)(Remember Voth and Gillette bragging via email?)(and a few eggs comment?). I said Halfway to PC. READ SLOWLY. Make him and his attorney come in and explain why he makes $15000 a year and just bought $70,000 worth of guns. What do you like the chances you'll EVER hear from that guys again? Hein endith the lesson. I don't have time to school you. However, YOUR opinions are always welcome. BUT do not represent your opinion for fact. There is more line agent and Inspector glorifying that goes on day to day on this website than you can shake a stick at. WE LOVE ATF. We do however take exception to our veteran Agents being fired for nonsense,while perverted bosses are sticking their "Johnsons" through plywood in government quarters are getting promoted.Why do you think we have all laid our asses on the line to get it right. Blame the corrupt and inept managers for the chaos we are experiencing. NOT those who are trying to hold them accountable. Let me rephrase my earlier. I do NOW think you are a moron. You may feel free to remove the IF.

Vince,
If this is loving ATF, I would hate to see you mad at ATF. So, the guy refuses to talk with you and you confront him and he stops trafficking guns. This has been standard policy for years. No charges. This is the reality of the situation. I don't want to get into anymore of the reality of the situation than that, but it isn't like we see a guy who looks like he is trafficking and we can go arrest him. We use to have the luxury of putting the fear of god into this guys, but with the violence of the cartels, things have changed. I am only trying to acknowledge that the world has changed over the past 20 years. I thought this would actually be an interesting discussion. Sorry for trying to add a point that you don't agree with. I would bet that there is a little more bad mouthing ATF every day on this site than GLORIFYING LINE AGENTS and Inspectors. Good luck. I hope you win you appeal.

So difficult to tell why our credibitliy is shot.

If you make a mistake, accept it - own it - correct it - learn from it - improve. No problem.

Lie, get caught in the lie, deny the existence of the lie.... a few people outside the DC beltway view that as unacceptable behavior so all hell breaks loose.

Life is so complicated.

Thanks Zorro,
Great Post. Hopefully ATF will someday learn this lesson.

First off WHERE DID I SAY that everyone in the ATF was a criminal? I submit that you need to learn to READ and pay attention because I never even suggested anything of the sort...but entirely opposite of that. So where are you coming up with that crap?
If youre not saying that I was doing so, then what the hell are you going on about?
My post was NOT slamming anything and if you could actually pay attention you would have figured that out. If anything Ive tried NOT to slam the ATF even though in many ways it deserves it.

So...lets say someone buys 100 guns tomorrow. What is the remedy YOU are suggesting?
You seem to be implying overall that you should have free reign to do whatever regardless of our rights. Is that what youre getting at?

Nice use of passive aggressive. Next time, try "bless their heart"before saying something nice about ATF. My point is it is your right to buy 100 guns. PERIOD. ATF walks a fine line everyday. Pay attention to my post. ATF doesn't need anymore laws. PERIOD. You go on about defunding ATF without taking the time to discuss the problems they encounter. I think very few agents outside those directly involved knew what was going on. I just get tired on the slamming of ATF and that the american public thinks we need to be defunded. Fine. Give the gun laws to the FBI. ATF does not need anymore power or laws. We are underfunded and understaffed and we still do more than most other big federal agencies.

Check this out Truthteller,
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal. I have worked ALMOST exclusively firearms trafficking cases and UC ops for my entire career. I am proud to have worked in Atlanta, (admittedly one of the heaviest source States in the Country) and not ONCE did we ever intentionally or knowingly let a firearms slip into the hands of a criminal through a "legal" straw purchaser. You clearly do not understand Terry, Escabedo, Miranda and the Federal rules of criminal procedure. Set down the mail order law book and journey with me into the real world for just a moment. First, if somebody is purchasing 100 semi-automatic rifles on the southwest border and doesn't present his FFL to the seller, you are halfway to PC. That stands for probable cause. Then you do what we ATF Agents call, INVESTIGATE. I really don't have time to break it down for you. However after my dispute with the agency is settled I will give you my email address and I will be glad to share techniques with you NOT on an open forum. Finally, 5 guns is a mistake. 20 guns is a big mistake. 2000 guns is a reckless and dangerous abuse of authority and an obstruction of justice. Stop defending the indefensible. Apparently you haven't gotten the memo that we have lied, concealed and manipulated and withheld the truth from Congress. I am in my 31st year as a badge totin, gun totin law enforcement Agent. I cant think of ONE, (while I'm sure they may be one), time I have lost an appeal, had a case overturned or was successfully sued over a 2nd amendment issue. That's the courts job. Stop whining about the big bad NRA wont let us do our job, and go do it. I don't care what the NRA, GOA or any other partisan group thinks or doesn't think about the laws we enforce. They are the law of the land until Congress changes it. Its a convenient excuse that they wont let us do our job. I have NEVER been hindered, and that statement is supported by an ATF 100% conviction rate over 24 years.

So, rather than address the points I made, you call me a moron. Nice. So if someone buys 100 guns that is PC. PC for what? Your honor, I need a search warrant because someone bought 20 guns. Seriously. So it is a crime to buy too many guns. No. It might make you want to investigate a little. What if he tells you to pound sand and won't talk. So far, you have an individual who bought 20 guns legally, refuses to talk with you and no guns have ever come back on a trace. Your next step is to give him a letter explain dealing without a license, not a search warrant. Next month you have the same guy buy another 10 guns. You go talk to him and he say "NO". Under your statement that is Probable Cause. Seriously?? All you have is a US citizen who purchased 30 guns legally and won't talk to you. Last time I checked it is his legal right to buy guns. Who am I to say how many? If I won the lottery, the list of guns I would buy would be mind boggling. It isn't like it was 20 years ago when the mexican nationals were scared of law enforcement. I am not trying to defend what happened in Phoenix. I know several agents who were there on the GRIT and had no idea what was going on. I can't find any excuse to tell a dealer to make a sale he isn't comfortable with. But I don't think it is right to call everyone in ATF a criminal without understanding the facts. I do see this kind of stunt done in Phoenix being used by the anti-gun lobby to tighten up the gun laws. The last thing ATF needs is anymore laws. We have plenty and not enough people to enforce them. I was only trying to point out some simple facts that seem to have been lost in the slam ATF postings. The point of this site was to bring to light the problems with ATF, not bad mouth every agent working the streets. Or am I wrong?

I would say that I think the ATF does 'suck' in a lot of ways...but probably because of what has been explained by Sandy.
I dont know if ATF folk understand this or not, but there is a lot of call for defunding of the ATF entirely.
If something doesnt happen to get upper mgt in line soon it may well become the main priority of 80 million gun owners to get the ATF shut down.
Right now as things stand I have to say Id be for such an effort. Especially seeing that at a time when ATF should being laying low for a while, they instead are trying to bring about MORE rules and regulations that ONLY affect the law abiding.
If things change for the better, however, and ATF becomes what it should be, my views could be changed pretty easily.
Law abiding gun owners like myself have had pretty much all we're willing to take. Every moron who gets into the White house seems to either declare war on us....or pull some underhanded crap that we dont find out about until after the fact (Obama and the Korean M1's comes to mind, not to mention the attempt to destroy a lot of used military brass last year or so).
We appreciate the good guys in the ATF, but if things dont change something is going to have to be done to get the ATF out of the picture altogether....which defunding probably would accomplish.

I certainly dont mean to bash or anything...but Im really just as sick of opening up yahoo.com every other day and seeing some news article that is telling some story about how law abiding gun owners are somehow a threat and need to be disarmed.

I obey the law to the letter. I have perfect credit. I dont litter, dont speed and wear my seatbelt every time. Id say I obey the law better than most cops do. Im courteous to other drivers and everyone I meet...yet somehow *I* end up being painted as a bad guy just because I own some a couple shotguns and a couple revolvers. Its a real pain in the arse sometimes. I feel like we have to watch every damned move Obama and others make to keep them from either openly trying to destroy our rights...or pulling some underhanded nonsense like this UN treaty that has no chance of passing now anyway.
Where does it stop? When do we go after the BAD guys and leave the good guys alone?

Seriously! Enough! 99.9% of everything ATF does is good and serves the people. We strive to protect the 2nd amendment. We put extremely bad people in jail. But we also walk a fine line protecting the 2nd amendment and at the same time enforcing the gun laws. What really happened down in Phoenix still hasn't been reported. I was told that on four occasions agents tried to get a federal search warrant to recover guns sitting in a suspected traffickers safe house after watching the location for over 90 days. Sorry, judge said no. The guns were legally purchased and no crime had occurred. No arrests could occur till they tried to cross the border, if they ever did. Here is another little fact I just learned. Most of the agents who were done there on the GRIT didn't even know what was going on with the wire or that there was even a wire to begin with. Agents in Mexico didn't know. Agents in California didn't know. Agents in Texas didn't know. Here is another little fact. A large number of ATF agents came over from Border Patrol. ATF gets bashed for stuff they don't even do. Yes, agencies make mistakes. Fine with me if you give the gun laws to the FBI. The NRA will never let that happen. A weak and beaten ATF is what the gun lobby wants. I am not a fan of ATF management - period. I think Obama wants ATF gone so he can give the gun laws to the FBI. You leave out the little stories about the big FBI screw ups and attribute them to ATF. Unfortunately, when this is all over and the complete truth comes out, it will be too late for the true story to be reported. ATF missed their chance to tell their side of the story. Here is my one question for you. I know you won't answer it, but dance around. A suspected gun trafficker goes into a gun store and passes the NICS check and wants to buy 100 assault type weapons. What should the ATF agent do? It is his legal right to buy as many guns as he wants. He refuses to explain himself. The purchase is legal. Now what???? They aren't afraid of law enforcement anymore. The cartel will actually cut them into little pieces if they talk. They move the guns around for several months and split them into several stashes. No tracker will last that long. Now what???