Wow, Sandy. I guess that does a good job of explaining it. Thank you for the insight.
The one thing that has been bothering me about the ATF.
Started by Excalibur-2112, Oct 15 2011 11:43 AM
54 replies to this topic
#51
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:58 AM
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#52
Guest_Sandy Davis_*
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Posted 16 October 2011 - 05:19 AM
Excalibur - I do understand your frustration and bewilderment so I’ll try to answer your question as to why more agents/employees have not come forward. I believe it is very important that the taxpaying public understand just what these whistle blowers endure by speaking out. While I do not have first-hand knowledge of the mindset of the current ATF whistle blowers regarding Fast and Furious, I do have 25 years of understanding how the corruption within the leadership of ATF works and how complete and vicious ATF’s reprisals always are. Not only will ATF management come after you for blowing the whistle, they will do it so completely and so heartlessly, that no one in your life who is close to you will escape unharmed by it.
ATF management has never been content to slap you around a bit, they attempt to destroy your career, fire you, take your pension, and some agents have even had trumped-up criminal charges levied against them. Everything an ATF whistle blower goes through at the hands of ATF also affects their families. Blowing the whistle at ATF will also drag many innocent co-workers and thus their families into the nightmare. The collateral damage is often devastating. And it's not like an ATF whistle blower just thinks they will be retaliated against, ATF’s history tells them they will be.
Probably the saddest of the collateral damage is what it does to the family of the whistle blower. The families also have their lives torn apart. They watch as the prolonged stress destroys the health of someone they love, while being completely helpless to do anything about it. Children many times (probably most times) end up walking through their lives with permanent psychological injuries stemming from their parent’s very long and brutal battle to do the right thing.
I’m not trying to make excuses for those who don’t come forward, but trying to help you understand the toll it takes on those who do, and the harm done to their families. Admittedly, some ATF employees simply do not want to become involved, but most just cannot throw their co-workers and families to the wolves while they litigate the government for years/decades. Most who do come forward will eventually have to make the decision to walk away and let others continue the fight because they no longer have the financial/emotional/physical health to continue. Some agents are simply in denial that the agency they have loved, believed in, and put their lives in danger for regularly is so corrupt.
I’ve been around for 25 years and have seen hundreds of cases where someone had the character and integrity to come forward and speak the truth against this agency. I’ve yet to see a truly happy ending for even one of them. Even if they make changes (usually temporary) within the agency and escape financial ruin (extremely rare), they and their families are scarred for life to varying degrees.
I can also say that many of the current whistle blowers will likely not realize the physical and psychological effects of what they are going through until they finally get to walk away from it all and access the damage. Years of constant and intense stress have a cumulative effect. I pray this is not the case, but my many years of watching tells me this is the likely outcome. I firmly believe though that there is a very special place in heaven for these very brave man and women and I love and admire each and every one of them for what they are willing to do.
Many think that there are protections in place for whistle blowers within the federal government. These entities are broken and rarely affective. Because the government has sovereign immunities and unlimited taxpayer dollars to litigate indefinitely, at some point most whistle blowers are left with no real protections whatsoever. One can not sue the government for punitive damages. And the damages awarded usually do not cover the whistle blower’s attorney fees and other expenses. All employees know this before they ever speak up.
While my personal experience has been with the law enforcement side of ATF, through this site, I have learned that much of what the agents have gone through with ATF’s outrageous abuse of power, has also been happening to gun dealers (FFLs) around the country. Fast and Furious has put these abuses against FFL’s in the spotlight. I’m just discovering that while ATF employees have been fighting the corruption for decades from within, there have been many brave FFLs who have been fighting just as hard from outside the agency. My respect and admiration grows for them daily.
I want to make one more point. There are many within ATF and on this site who are fighting the corruption anonymously. While no one knows who they are, they work very hard behind the scenes to try to make things right. They know they are taking a chance of having their identities discovered and I pray daily that they can continue to contribute without any of the vipers in ATF finding out who they are.
Excalibur, it is way beyond my ability to articulate the damage that an ATF whistle blower endures, but I speak to many daily and I wish you could know just how much they care. Talking to them always restores my faith in mankind.
ATF management has never been content to slap you around a bit, they attempt to destroy your career, fire you, take your pension, and some agents have even had trumped-up criminal charges levied against them. Everything an ATF whistle blower goes through at the hands of ATF also affects their families. Blowing the whistle at ATF will also drag many innocent co-workers and thus their families into the nightmare. The collateral damage is often devastating. And it's not like an ATF whistle blower just thinks they will be retaliated against, ATF’s history tells them they will be.
Probably the saddest of the collateral damage is what it does to the family of the whistle blower. The families also have their lives torn apart. They watch as the prolonged stress destroys the health of someone they love, while being completely helpless to do anything about it. Children many times (probably most times) end up walking through their lives with permanent psychological injuries stemming from their parent’s very long and brutal battle to do the right thing.
I’m not trying to make excuses for those who don’t come forward, but trying to help you understand the toll it takes on those who do, and the harm done to their families. Admittedly, some ATF employees simply do not want to become involved, but most just cannot throw their co-workers and families to the wolves while they litigate the government for years/decades. Most who do come forward will eventually have to make the decision to walk away and let others continue the fight because they no longer have the financial/emotional/physical health to continue. Some agents are simply in denial that the agency they have loved, believed in, and put their lives in danger for regularly is so corrupt.
I’ve been around for 25 years and have seen hundreds of cases where someone had the character and integrity to come forward and speak the truth against this agency. I’ve yet to see a truly happy ending for even one of them. Even if they make changes (usually temporary) within the agency and escape financial ruin (extremely rare), they and their families are scarred for life to varying degrees.
I can also say that many of the current whistle blowers will likely not realize the physical and psychological effects of what they are going through until they finally get to walk away from it all and access the damage. Years of constant and intense stress have a cumulative effect. I pray this is not the case, but my many years of watching tells me this is the likely outcome. I firmly believe though that there is a very special place in heaven for these very brave man and women and I love and admire each and every one of them for what they are willing to do.
Many think that there are protections in place for whistle blowers within the federal government. These entities are broken and rarely affective. Because the government has sovereign immunities and unlimited taxpayer dollars to litigate indefinitely, at some point most whistle blowers are left with no real protections whatsoever. One can not sue the government for punitive damages. And the damages awarded usually do not cover the whistle blower’s attorney fees and other expenses. All employees know this before they ever speak up.
While my personal experience has been with the law enforcement side of ATF, through this site, I have learned that much of what the agents have gone through with ATF’s outrageous abuse of power, has also been happening to gun dealers (FFLs) around the country. Fast and Furious has put these abuses against FFL’s in the spotlight. I’m just discovering that while ATF employees have been fighting the corruption for decades from within, there have been many brave FFLs who have been fighting just as hard from outside the agency. My respect and admiration grows for them daily.
I want to make one more point. There are many within ATF and on this site who are fighting the corruption anonymously. While no one knows who they are, they work very hard behind the scenes to try to make things right. They know they are taking a chance of having their identities discovered and I pray daily that they can continue to contribute without any of the vipers in ATF finding out who they are.
Excalibur, it is way beyond my ability to articulate the damage that an ATF whistle blower endures, but I speak to many daily and I wish you could know just how much they care. Talking to them always restores my faith in mankind.
#53
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:07 PM
I will respond to your general statements.
I want you to understand the following.
1. Not evey ATF agent knew about Fast and Furious investigation prior to it going public.
2. Not every ATF agent knew that guns were being allowed to walk to Mexico.
3. There were ATF agents that attempted to have this wrong corrected prior to the murder of Brian Terry.
4. I personally doubt that the Attorney General or the President knew about the details of this investigation.
The decision to allow firearms to walk was made at a regional level and not a national level.
Interesting responses.
1. I definitely would agree with this based on what Ive understood.
2. Again, I agree, not EVERY agent probably knew.
3. This is comforting if it is accurate ( And really is my ONLY interest in this thread).
I would like to think it is...but in the back of my mind I wonder how much of a stink could ATF personnel made about the fact that they were involved in a gun walking operation while Obama and his drones were hammering my gun rights?
If they were trying, who was stopping it from getting the attention gunrunner has? Sorry, it just seems as if it werent really being taken seriously by anyone to not have caused some sort of ruckus at some point before agent terry was murdered.
4. I have to say I dont agree at all. The evidence and the VERY apparent coverup by Obama and Holder make it fairly conclusive that they DID know about F&F long before it went public. Innocent men cooperate when investigated because they have nothing to hide. Guilty men cover up and try to get the investigation to go away. Holder is doing just that and has been. Moreso presently than before.
Based on the evidence and Issa's investigation to date I honestly dont know how anyone could even remotely believe that Holder did not know about F&F in detail more than a year ago.
Again, Im NOT making generalizations. This very forum is absolute proof that there are a lot of good men in the ATF.
I just would like to know why, while MY rights were being assaulted, the ATF personnel who DID(of those who DID know) actually know about F&F (and other similar operations we're now learning about) did not get hold of Obama and Holder and TELL them that it wasnt the fault of MY rights that guns were getting to Mexico, but was actually the direct result of an ATF operation.
Put it this way, IF Agent Terry had not been murdered by those cowards, WOULD the ATF have ever come out and defended my 2nd amendment rights against Obama and Holder by letting them know that it was because of the ATF's operations that guns were getting into Mexico....or would they have remained silent about it and let everyone believe that gun rights caused this problem?
Do you see my point? Im not sure if Im explaining it clearly enough or not
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
#54
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Posted 15 October 2011 - 01:06 PM
First of all let me say that many of the fine ATF agents here give me hope that there is some honesty and integrity in government and its agencies/agents remaining, so I am in no way making blanket generalizations about every individual in the ATF.
Something that has been nagging at me every since this Gun Runner scandal began is this...
If the ATF and its agents WERE actually 'walking' guns into Mexico, and it appears that they were given all the data we've seen so far, it means at the very least that a lot of ATF personnel KNEW about these guns crossing the border.
Am I correct in that assessment?
So assuming that a lot of ATF agents of whatever level (field agent, etc) did know, then this means that the whole time that Obama, Eric Holder and Hilary Clinton were accusing MY gun rights of causing this problem of American guns in Mexico, that the ATF KNOWING that it wasn't true, did absolutely nothing to come to MY defense and tell the truth that it WASNT my 2nd Amendment right that was at the core of this problem, but instead was a direct result of an operation that the ATF itself was running.
I'm very confused why none of this was brought to public attention as it is now until Brian Terry (God rest his soul) was murdered.
Was this not on the conscience of ATF agents before he was gunned down by those drug dealing animals ?
I mean, if I knew YOU were being falsely accused and YOUR rights being threatened because of something I knew I was doing, shouldnt I be outraged because of the injustice?
Again, this is just something that has been heavy on my heart for a few months now and I really would like to have some kind of answer so I can keep feeling good about the men and women in law enforcement. I know you all get a lot of bad PR because of the few who get out of line, but Im one who doesnt like to condemn the whole because of the few idiots that slip through the cracks...but I am very disheartened by the fact that the ATF knowingly allowed Holder and Obozo to slander ME and my gun rights and didnt do anything to set the record straight from the very start.
Also, I want to thank the whistleblowers again for all that you've done. You give America and its citizens something to look up to.
I will respond to your general statements.
I want you to understand the following.
1. Not evey ATF agent knew about Fast and Furious investigation prior to it going public.
2. Not every ATF agent knew that guns were being allowed to walk to Mexico.
3. There were ATF agents that attempted to have this wrong corrected prior to the murder of Brian Terry.
4. I personally doubt that the Attorney General or the President knew about the details of this investigation.
The decision to allow firearms to walk was made at a regional level and not a national level.
For Clean Up ATF!
#55
Excalibur-2112
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Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:43 AM
First of all let me say that many of the fine ATF agents here give me hope that there is some honesty and integrity in government and its agencies/agents remaining, so I am in no way making blanket generalizations about every individual in the ATF.
Something that has been nagging at me every since this Gun Runner scandal began is this...
If the ATF and its agents WERE actually 'walking' guns into Mexico, and it appears that they were given all the data we've seen so far, it means at the very least that a lot of ATF personnel KNEW about these guns crossing the border.
Am I correct in that assessment?
So assuming that a lot of ATF agents of whatever level (field agent, etc) did know, then this means that the whole time that Obama, Eric Holder and Hilary Clinton were accusing MY gun rights of causing this problem of American guns in Mexico, that the ATF KNOWING that it wasn't true, did absolutely nothing to come to MY defense and tell the truth that it WASNT my 2nd Amendment right that was at the core of this problem, but instead was a direct result of an operation that the ATF itself was running.
I'm very confused why none of this was brought to public attention as it is now until Brian Terry (God rest his soul) was murdered.
Was this not on the conscience of ATF agents before he was gunned down by those drug dealing animals ?
I mean, if I knew YOU were being falsely accused and YOUR rights being threatened because of something I knew I was doing, shouldnt I be outraged because of the injustice?
Again, this is just something that has been heavy on my heart for a few months now and I really would like to have some kind of answer so I can keep feeling good about the men and women in law enforcement. I know you all get a lot of bad PR because of the few who get out of line, but Im one who doesnt like to condemn the whole because of the few idiots that slip through the cracks...but I am very disheartened by the fact that the ATF knowingly allowed Holder and Obozo to slander ME and my gun rights and didnt do anything to set the record straight from the very start.
Also, I want to thank the whistleblowers again for all that you've done. You give America and its citizens something to look up to.
Something that has been nagging at me every since this Gun Runner scandal began is this...
If the ATF and its agents WERE actually 'walking' guns into Mexico, and it appears that they were given all the data we've seen so far, it means at the very least that a lot of ATF personnel KNEW about these guns crossing the border.
Am I correct in that assessment?
So assuming that a lot of ATF agents of whatever level (field agent, etc) did know, then this means that the whole time that Obama, Eric Holder and Hilary Clinton were accusing MY gun rights of causing this problem of American guns in Mexico, that the ATF KNOWING that it wasn't true, did absolutely nothing to come to MY defense and tell the truth that it WASNT my 2nd Amendment right that was at the core of this problem, but instead was a direct result of an operation that the ATF itself was running.
I'm very confused why none of this was brought to public attention as it is now until Brian Terry (God rest his soul) was murdered.
Was this not on the conscience of ATF agents before he was gunned down by those drug dealing animals ?
I mean, if I knew YOU were being falsely accused and YOUR rights being threatened because of something I knew I was doing, shouldnt I be outraged because of the injustice?
Again, this is just something that has been heavy on my heart for a few months now and I really would like to have some kind of answer so I can keep feeling good about the men and women in law enforcement. I know you all get a lot of bad PR because of the few who get out of line, but Im one who doesnt like to condemn the whole because of the few idiots that slip through the cracks...but I am very disheartened by the fact that the ATF knowingly allowed Holder and Obozo to slander ME and my gun rights and didnt do anything to set the record straight from the very start.
Also, I want to thank the whistleblowers again for all that you've done. You give America and its citizens something to look up to.
ALLCAPS....just my way of highlighting to draw attention to a word or point... No yelling intended :-)
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