56 replies to this topic

[Zorro]

This panel was management approved and seemed to be a cross section of the agency. They said almost verbatim what the "malcontents" have said. No more excuses - everyone knows. Act decisively or have your legacy be written as just another set of failed actors. There will be some howling - lots of it - but if you set a standard of conduct and hold people to it, they will perform or fall by the wayside. I'm not talking failure to produce enough numbers or spreadsheets to tally the numbers or colors in the power point slide that displays the spreadsheets, but ethical, legal conduct regardless of pay grade. No more free passes. Until that is corrected, morale and respect will not improve. Character does matter.

In regard to changecast #2 - I can't quibble with the content, but who is responsible for the distrations? Some of the people responsible for Mr. Brandon's "visceral" experience perhaps? Naw - couldn't be.

[Doc Holiday]

The only thing missing now is ACTION.

I agree Patriot. The FAAP has made some great recommendations thus far. I was surprised that Tom Brandon received negative e-mails from "loyal" ATF employees because he decided to post the findings on the ATF intraweb. The transparent act made by Mr. Brandon, by posting the recommendations, is a great start and keeping things quiet does not help anyone. I further commend the Acting Director for giving us the updates of significant events around the bureau like the event on the west coast today. I am glad our guys are safe.

[GoodWorker]

I applaud the FAAP for their work. They wrapped their arms around the most important issues affecting ATF. Their proposed solutions are excellent. The ball is firmly in the hands of management at this point and swift action should now be the order of the day. There should be no more pressing issue than to approve, adopt and implement the solutions proposed in the report. It would be hard to think that panel members do not read this site, because many of the issues they addressed have been written about here. So if you are a panel member, I thank you for your work, it is bold and meaningful, lets see what Mr Jones does next. If no panel member has ever read this site, then that is an indication that everyone is thinking alike and truly are working to improve ATF

I agree Patriot. The FAAP has made some great recommendations thus far. I was surprised that Tom Brandon received negative e-mails from "loyal" ATF employees because he decided to post the findings on the ATF intraweb. The transparent act made by Mr. Brandon, by posting the recommendations, is a great start and keeping things quiet does not help anyone. I further commend the Acting Director for giving us the updates of significant events around the bureau like the event on the west coast today. I am glad our guys are safe.

[Patriot]

I applaud the FAAP for their work. They wrapped their arms around the most important issues affecting ATF. Their proposed solutions are excellent. The ball is firmly in the hands of management at this point and swift action should now be the order of the day. There should be no more pressing issue than to approve, adopt and implement the solutions proposed in the report. It would be hard to think that panel members do not read this site, because many of the issues they addressed have been written about here. So if you are a panel member, I thank you for your work, it is bold and meaningful, lets see what Mr Jones does next. If no panel member has ever read this site, then that is an indication that everyone is thinking alike and truly are working to improve ATF

[Zorro]

Thanks to the FAAP for saying what you should. You covered a series of issues that many see as fatal to this agency's existence. While I remain skeptical about the "need" to ship people in from all over the country to state the obvious, it appears the panel members stepped up to the plate and performed honorably.

[x1811]

Our enemy is ourselves I can go with.

We wanted to be them???? No way in HELL. I've had one plagarize my report as his own, another lie to their ASAC about me and then I start to get an ass chewing by an ASAC (who was worthless by the way) until it came out that I had a senior Agent at the time sitting there when I had my conversation with that rookie FBI Agent and it came out that I was lied about. FBI is all about FBI. Hell of a PR machine they have there. But hell no, I don't want to be them. From my days as a local police officer to now, they still have the same general reputation of not playing nice with others. We are better than that. We sure do have our problems but that isn't what we want to become.

Beware of using the broad brush to paint an agency with your frustration. It seems you had a problem and it was not handled in the manner you expected. OK, that happens. It happened with my relationships with many agencies, DEA, FBI, USSS, ATF, etc. l agree with the other postings that ATF' worst enemy is ATF. By reading the postings on this site, I am amazed at the mistrust among and between agents. Just about each and every federal law enforcement agency investigates and enforces each others violations. What I am trying to say is that the lines of jurisdiction are blurred. As such, we are in a sense all like everyone else. How many federal Law enforcement agencies have concurrent narcotics jurisdiction? How did that make DEA feel when the FBI and ATF started working Title 21 violations. My suggestion to all is not to worry about other agencies like the FBI until your own house is cleaned. Any perception of losing ground to another agency is due in large part to the damage you cause to yourself.

[ISpy]

The FBI is not our enemy and never has been. We made them the enemy, because we wanted to be them. Our only enemy is ourselves. No time to keep secrets now. Secrets are what got us to this point. Transparency and openness will make us better.

Our enemy is ourselves I can go with.

We wanted to be them???? No way in HELL. I've had one plagarize my report as his own, another lie to their ASAC about me and then I start to get an ass chewing by an ASAC (who was worthless by the way) until it came out that I had a senior Agent at the time sitting there when I had my conversation with that rookie FBI Agent and it came out that I was lied about. FBI is all about FBI. Hell of a PR machine they have there. But hell no, I don't want to be them. From my days as a local police officer to now, they still have the same general reputation of not playing nice with others. We are better than that. We sure do have our problems but that isn't what we want to become.

[Retired and loving it]

I have to agree. ATF management has always gotten away with this crap b/c there's been no transparency. It is EXACTLY what brought ATF to this point. It's what always brings ATF to this point. Employees have to rely on rumor and innuendo. I think this agency is too damaged at this point for anything to work unless there is COMPLETE transparency. Every employee deserves to be able to discuss and critique the progress or lack thereof in turning things around. CleanUP is the perfect place for that since people can speak their mind without fear of reprisals. ATF has always been its own worst enemy and it's the lack of transparency that enables management to hide what they do until things snowball to this point.

I would think the report needs to be published and openly discussed in detail. If the the leaders at ATF are sincere in wanting input from the field and repairing this disaster, wouldn't they want to have it out there for everyone to see? And if there is true progress, that would give many hope, something that the employees are very lacking in and very much in need of.

Good point about dissemination, Sandy. It would nice if it were also made available to retirees. While no longer with ATF, I still hope to see the agency improved.

[Retired and loving it]

An undeniable truth of life @ ATF.

I have not read the post yet, but the fact that they are out in the open is a positive sign. It might be an indication of ownership which is something we rarely see. On a related note, the recent e-mail that was sent to employees acknowledging there was a problem in senior management which may be viewed negatively by some may be positive as well - it is the first and only time in my tenure with this agency where a semi-public admission was made of a problem even existing.

Start promoting honest people who can and will make a decision minus counsel permission and you may be on to something, guys. Long way to go.

Excellent post Zorro. Right on target on the decision making matter. It has been far, far to long since managers (at least the higher-ups) have made any desision on their own. When I was still working, I thought independent decision-making was an expected part of my job. Somewhere along the line, that value (doing what you are paid to do) has been lost been by many.

[Zorro]

Secrets are what got us to this point.

An undeniable truth of life @ ATF.

I have not read the post yet, but the fact that they are out in the open is a positive sign. It might be an indication of ownership which is something we rarely see. On a related note, the recent e-mail that was sent to employees acknowledging there was a problem in senior management which may be viewed negatively by some may be positive as well - it is the first and only time in my tenure with this agency where a semi-public admission was made of a problem even existing.

Start promoting honest people who can and will make a decision minus counsel permission and you may be on to something, guys. Long way to go.

[Patriot]

The FBI is not our enemy and never has been. We made them the enemy, because we wanted to be them. Our only enemy is ourselves. No time to keep secrets now. Secrets are what got us to this point. Transparency and openness will make us better.

[Doc Holiday]

Oh that toothpaste aint goin back in the tube. But, we can NOT help them crush us.

Doc, maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but if you're worried about ATF being embarrassed and the FBI finding out ATF is screwed up, I'm thinking those two cats are long out of the bag.

[Doc Holiday]

Suggestion to posters on CUATF, JUST a suggestion.
The issues and potential solutions identified during the FAAP (Field Agent Advisory Program)have been posted to ATF employees. These are very sensitive, and critical to the survival of this Agency. We hope that all will show restraint in posting the particulars as the information is embarrassing and our potential enemy's inside the industry and out, ie. FBI will undoubtedly use the information against us. We should speak in general terms but keep the specifics in house until we know if its just smoke and mirrors. Thus far, the FAAP hit the nail(s) on the head. And remember, these are guys and gals HQ approved. THEY DID A GREAT JOB

[Hilltopper]

Second chances… I’ve thought a lot about second chances lately. There is more involved with second chances than you might think. The first element is realizing that you’ve made a mistake and that you want to move past the mistake and the mistake is a part of your history; never to be repeated again.

The second part about second chances is telling the authority over you, for me it was God and ultimately IA, that I had made a mistake, but I was going to do something about it to put it in the past. This is the scary part because although you know that God will forgive you, you do not know what humans will do. All you can is plead your case and hope for the best.

The last part about second chances is being happy with the second chance you are given. God guarantees us that even if we make mistakes, he does not hold it against us. This is best illustrated in Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

Here on earth, the choice given to you may not be as favorable. Second chances are not given out as freely. Sometimes it requires the person to be a member of a certain class of people. Sometimes it requires the person to be in a position of power. Sometimes it requires the person to have information that is damaging to a higher class individual. In these cases, the simple unassociated person receives no consideration. I could go on and say that this is contrary to how the Bible says we should treat each other, that every person is equally valuable to God, and who are we to judge, but I don’t want to turn this forum into a Sunday School Class…

I will say this. We are all anointed, or called, to perform a job in life. That job may be preaching the word of God or being an ATF agent. Whatever you are called to do, that calling becomes a primary goal to achieve in your life. That’s why we work the extra hours, wear the gun, face the dangers…because it’s part of achieving the goal.

Another part of achieving the goal is protecting the goal. I believe the persons on this website are doing just that. Protecting the goal. Speaking out against the enemies and events that affect the goal. We all care about our calling to be ATF agents and about the environment that surrounds us when we do our work. We all know that we cannot control the outside environment, the criminals, and the tragedies. BUT, we can control the agency politics. We can speak out against the wrongs and the favoritism and ask that everyone get the same second chance that others get. In a collective voice we can be heard.

If I were you, Mr. Brandon, I would be glad this site is here. As raw as some of this material may be, it shows that people care about ATF. They care about being ATF agents. They are on here for the betterment of ATF.

Mr. Brandon, this may be the last time you hear from me on this site, so please pay attention here for one moment… You have the authority over a lot of well-intentioned, hard-working agents. You can make changes for the better. You can give these agents who are in trouble second chances, just as second chances have been given to others. You can set new standards with fresh respected faces and weed out the old. You can tear down the wall between HQ and the field offices and open a line of communication. You can ultimately enable these agents to achieve their calling to be a federal law enforcement agent with ATF by removing obstacles. Don’t be indecisive. Don’t be scared. If you only knew the multitude of people that would back you on these changes, you would make them today. I know you would. There are a lot of us watching and waiting for change.

I’m nobody. I can’t make it happen. As bad as I want to help these agents get back to work and lift them out of their uncertainty, I can't.

All I can do is pray for God to bless you with courage and insight while I’m praying for these agents sitting at home, threatened to be fired, charged with the same offenses as others in the privileged class who have their gun and badge intact.

Don't let inaction and inequality be your legacy. Just think about it for a moment…

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Robert Frost, The Road Not Taken

[Patriot]

What? You have never seen the "smoke and mirrors" line item in our budget. We have always used funds to move incompetance rather than confront it. Someone in a prior posting talked about how long managers remain in place. It is not very long. ATF has always just moved problem children around the country. How many lateral moves have been made in the last five years and how did they benefit ATF or the public. How much have we spent to move one person(ie, the current SAC Newark) throughout the course of their carrer? If we were anything like the USMC (and just that inference is an insult to the USMC) we would only spend transfer funds for promotional moves. Move up or move out should be the new way of doing business. And while I am on the subject, stop wasting money on HQ's details. SES's suplementing their income with per diem is a well known, yet unspoken about ploy. There is no need to sit in an office at Headquarters. If these folks are such great managers, then they are capable of taking on additional duties from their respective locations. We have all the tools to electronically work from virtually anywhere, yet we continue to send people to DC on detail. Didn't we justify the expense of laptops for COOP in case of crisis, how is a vacancy in HQ's any different. It becomes a huge waste of money compounded by a domino effect. Case in point, the SAC from Boston went on detail, one of the Boston ASAC's became the acting SAC, the ASAC's position was filled with a GS on per diem. Not sure why the second ASAC couldn't step up and do more work. How is any of that justified? To make matters worse the SAC is no longer on detail in HQ's and not in Boston and no one knows where he has gone. Still paying for a GS to fill an ASAC's role, it is another example of poor management and planning.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Because for too long, our leadership placed far more importance on their own advancement than that of our Bureau. Its THAT simple.

Came across some information in another forum that mentioned that DEA doesn't have the money to promote and transfer new supervisors. Miami, it seems, is full of groups with acting GS's, and their HQ is full of acting supervisors.

So how come ATF has no problem with coming up with the money to find Project Manager slots for current group supervisors? Why is our HQ full of GS-15's? There was a time ATF tried to compare itself with the USMC, as some sort of mean, lean crime fighting machine, compared to the FBI's "bloated bureaucracy." Instead, we've turned into a top heavy outfit which seems to exist only to benefit the careers of GS-14's and above.

[abteilung]

Came across some information in another forum that mentioned that DEA doesn't have the money to promote and transfer new supervisors. Miami, it seems, is full of groups with acting GS's, and their HQ is full of acting supervisors.

So how come ATF has no problem with coming up with the money to find Project Manager slots for current group supervisors? Why is our HQ full of GS-15's? There was a time ATF tried to compare itself with the USMC, as some sort of mean, lean crime fighting machine, compared to the FBI's "bloated bureaucracy." Instead, we've turned into a top heavy outfit which seems to exist only to benefit the careers of GS-14's and above.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Initial information regarding this weeks Field committee meeting took a positive note. Those attending will undoubtedly be advising the field of particulars. The fact that it took a positive tone is progress. The fact that for the first time in almost 10 years, our leadership is talking to us, not at us. This suggests they have finally realized that they NEED us, and that just tolerating those damn field agents, isn't enough. Actions will be the true test of the Agency's leadership to do the right thing. We should not OVER analyze the preliminary meeting. We should watch, scrutinize actions and watch for consistency, and NOT be dazzled by the shiny trinkets throw our way as actual reform.
Having heard over and over from many of our senior leaders for many years, "there's two sides of a story, and its my experience that the truth lays somewhere in between". I'll be the one to call BULLSHIT on that self serving Bureaucratic approach to EVERY situation. Sorry Boss, there are absolutes in this world when it comes to right and wrong. The aforementioned cowardly mentality is merely an escape valve to allow that "gray" area to justify your collective actions. This sort of Division between the bosses and the field was CREATED by you, as is the case in most situations throughout history where tyranny has existed. Rhetoric will NOT save this Bureau. Transparency, a thick skin, acceptance of responsibility and accountability is the ONLY tool left in your box to prevent the dismantling of this Great Bureau. Yes we are fully aware that we have been rocked and are teetering. The ONLY possibility for a future is to close ranks, PERIOD. And that AIN'T going to happen with some strong verbiage and rhetoric. Immediate, long term and short term Actions will dictate our leaderships sucess.

[Jaime3]

Everytime I become optimistic, I refer to the posting of the Individual who said when they asked the new panel member about videotaping the meetings, the individual acted like they've been doused with (don't remember which one) acid or gasoline!

[Retired and loving it]

Question #2: Why is ATF maintaining all these PIO positions? Seems like these people are needed on the streets in order to make cases. If there aren’t agents in the fields working, what is there to have a press release on? Well, unless you run your office like Bill Newell. That didn’t work out so well did it? Maybe Kelvin needs a PIO in his district in case he raids another toy store? Madea doesn’t understand.

Madea, I agree with you. However, without PIOs the SACs might actually have to appear before the cameras. You may recall how embarrasing it was when Kevin got there and couldn't insert his toy correctly. I hear he is quite adept at "insertions" off camera though!

[Retired and loving it]

Seriously - who needs a panel to figure out that getting arrested, falsifying travel vouchers, using the G-Card for personal benefit, lying to the OIG, lying to congress, lying to the media, industry, or public is not acceptable behavior?

Apparently ATF does!

[Jaime3]

I actually appreciated the fact that Mr. Brandon is trying to communicate effectively through his Broadcasts.
That's something that was definitely missing before.

I must say, if the BDO is Erika Ritt, there will be some conflicts of interest with some cases she's reviewing. Anything coming out of Chicago, she will honor Management.

[Jaime3]

I really want to take Tom Brandon seriously, but that is hard to do considering I emailed B. Todd in October with a overview request, before taking my situation to another level. He didn't even respond. At least Melson replied, Mr. Jones just ignored me.

I wasn't asking for him to personally fly and see me, but out of professional respect and courtesies, he could at least acknowledged me.

So when people express their discouragement for "Change" it's probably because they've been ignored for a very long time and not wanting to fall victim to the "Change" syndrome.

How can you create a culture of change when the mind changing dialogue is ignored?

My situation has been pending for years.

[Patriot]

Corruption is about the worse thing anyone can associate with a law enforcement agency and it is very difficult to remove. I never really thought that the corruption label would apply to ATF, since I have always associated it with some financial gain. I now realize that is does apply to ATF, as taxpayer dollars have been wasted and continue to be wasted on office of preference moves, hiding inept mangagers and paying people to stay home. Police departments root out corruption by hiring chiefs and top management from the outside. That is not going to happen here. The creation of a panel of current employees, while it sounds good only serves to put the panel members in a difficult position of being advocates of change in an organization that is resistant to change.

I propose that the membership of the panel be revisited by reaching out to recent retirees. That is a resource that no one has utilized. Pull together a group of volunteers, with institutional knowledge, no career to protect, and a strong desire to see the organization that they served come back strong. I know many retirees with credibility and a career history of accomplishment. I am confident that current employees would feel comfortable speaking with a panel of retirees that have a reputation for having excelled in their career. This would not cost ATF a dime as it can all be accomplished electronically. On the management side there has to be a committment to consider and implement reccomendations that are productive. Complete transparency is necessary. I am confient that a retiree would feel comfortable posting the panels recomendations here if mangagement balks or stalls, something the current panels members would not in all likelyhood feel safe doing. ATF management does not like CleanUp ATF which is an indication that it is working. ATF needs a new approach,not a recycled idea with a new name.

[Jaime3]

I must sincerely say, I appreciate the email Tom Brandon sent out about the (FAAP). It got my attention.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Outstanding point Zorro. Unless and until the senior executive staff is held to some some of standards, this is leading from the rear. And that doesn't work.Whether these managers committed credit card fraud, poor judgement, perjury, or contempt of Congress, and were returned to their SAC jobs on a technicality, until Mr.Jones, Deputy Director Brandon et al remove them with prejudice, their credibility will always be suspect.

Jaime - please see below edit and try to consider my post in its entirety. If there is genuine intention to right the ship, people other than agents will have to be involved at some point and the people starting this will not be able to have a giant pile on session that creates any beneficial result. It's clear from madea and Sandy's posts that "correction" will be measured in inches rather than miles and right now the agent side of the house is a target rich environment.

If this panel is just theater for congress - a very good possibility - then your frustration is for naught because no matter how much travel money is spent transporting agents, inspectors, examiners, analysts, assistants, etc etc etc to DC it will be useless and your aggravation will only be multiplied. If it is a good faith attempt to learn right from wrong, it will be a process that by necessity will include many viewpoints.

Not a penny should be spent on this endeavor until we all have a clearly defined code of conduct and disciplinary matrix that outlines any and all pay grade or career field based exemptions. Until the integrity and accountability wound is at least bandaged (healing will take a generation of employees or more both internally and externally), the rest is moot.

Seriously - who needs a panel to figure out that getting arrested, falsifying travel vouchers, using the G-Card for personal benefit, lying to the OIG, lying to congress, lying to the media, industry, or public is not acceptable behavior?

It all looks like that football and signed agreement.

[Jaime3]

Zorro, It would've just been an adding of 1 or 2 people to this group.
So although I remain hopeful, I'm skeptical because of the person selected to represent our region. And that's all Im gonna say about that. But I'm sure you can understand my position.

To see this representation is discouraging.

And yes Madea, you always take care of me. People like you, who have practiced what they preached, keeps me hopeful.

But I wouldn't be honest if I didn't express my discouragement.

[Zorro]

Jaime - please see below edit and try to consider my post in its entirety. If there is genuine intention to right the ship, people other than agents will have to be involved at some point and the people starting this will not be able to have a giant pile on session that creates any beneficial result. It's clear from madea and Sandy's posts that "correction" will be measured in inches rather than miles and right now the agent side of the house is a target rich environment.

If this panel is just theater for congress - a very good possibility - then your frustration is for naught because no matter how much travel money is spent transporting agents, inspectors, examiners, analysts, assistants, etc etc etc to DC it will be useless and your aggravation will only be multiplied. If it is a good faith attempt to learn right from wrong, it will be a process that by necessity will include many viewpoints.

Not a penny should be spent on this endeavor until we all have a clearly defined code of conduct and disciplinary matrix that outlines any and all pay grade or career field based exemptions. Until the integrity and accountability wound is at least bandaged (healing will take a generation of employees or more both internally and externally), the rest is moot.

Seriously - who needs a panel to figure out that getting arrested, falsifying travel vouchers, using the G-Card for personal benefit, lying to the OIG, lying to congress, lying to the media, industry, or public is not acceptable behavior?

It all looks like that football and signed agreement.

[Jaime3]

Zorro,

Yes, I agree people who aren't Agents are "torqued" about it being about Agents.

I also agree Agents are a bulk of the mission.

But, to use the term "fair" when all wronged employee positions are not being represented, it makes the term "fair" disingenuous.

The phrase "bulk of the mission" isn't interpreted as the entire mission.

So if the reasons that affect the Entire mission isn't addressed, how is that fair?

I'm sure if we were to review everyone's case or situation, I'm confident the bad behavior and harassment among All these employees are mirror images.

So to use the term "fair" when certain groups are discounted because of their position is, once again disingenuous.

Isnt that the type of thinking that got ATF to this point? Discounting people because you're not part of their circle?

So let's please just call it what it is, an effort to put something in place to just say to Congress and the Media, "It's been addressed."

When the real question is now, with these groups in place, will the Agents have adequate and fair representation of the obvious corrupt issues?

Are the members going to be afraid of Reprecussions, gloss over the real issues, and ignore the elephant in the room?