Truth, if you are referring to Ralph's statement that Waco (at least the timing of the raid) was in part because ATF wanted to make a big media splash, I can tell you that there is a lot of merit to that statement. About 20 of us went on "60 Minutes". The "60 Minutes" producers were very open about intentionally airing the show right before ATF was to go before congress for it's yearly, 'look how great we are and we need lots more money' pilgrimage. Waco was the first time in ATF's history that a reporter was given the heads up to be present at a major raid. ATF knew the "60 minutes" show was going to air just before it's yearly 'budget beg'.

It has always made sense to me that the reason ATF charged into the compound even though the UC agent told them "they know we're coming", was because no one wanted to tell Higgins and Hartnet, "hey, we had to call of the big raid - just not a good time". The raid needed to be done while the reporter was there and certainly before ATF was due to go before congress. ATF had never had the sort of national media exposure that they knew they were about to get when that show aired. Mike Wallace was chasing Higgins down the hallway and Higgins was looking like the sleazy, scurrying rat that he was. Both Hartnet and Higgins were FURIOUS that we went to "60 Minutes", and I think they had hopes that the WACO raid would show them in a much better light. Then they could write us all off as "disgruntled employees" just trying to sling mud at a wonderful agency. Any of this sounding familiar?

Higgins' and Hartnet's anger over "60 Minutes" (both the original show and the 'post Waco' follow-up show) was so rabid that they started a campaign of retaliation against me that was over-the-top, even by ATF standards. This last campaign to 'get even' eventually resulted in a very large check paid to me by the poor taxpayers.

I'm wondering why you feel that Ralph is way off base here.

Sandy,
Do you remember what happened two days before the Waco raid?? The 1st World Trade Center bombing. It was made clear that no one was even going to cover the story nationally to the on scene commanders. The plan was originally scheduled to go two months earlier. I much more logically explanation was that the creature was alive and after spending all that money, the raid was going forward. You never hear about the background details. Having portable toilets and showers being brought out to the compound for the cult members. Meals scheduled for days. All these were part of a plan. I seriously doubt HRT members were complaining about ATF. They were much more angry at their own people, primarily the hostage negotiators and the FBI on scene commander. Don't believe everything you hear second hand and never believe everything you hear from the media. I don't remember hearing anything from the media about $30,000,000 settlement they paid out to the ATF agents wounded and killed. The real sad part is the cult members never realized who they should really be suing.

I notice you didn't bother yourself with responding to my question

again, the sheriff is on camera - i'm starting to wonder if you've been drinking the kool aid


something else that was in the congressional hearings (and i'm sorry, but i bothered to record them live) - there were 4 UC that rented a house across from the branch davidian property - one of those agents wrote in his report, that after having visited and used the davidian range a number of times (as did the Texas state police on an unannounced basis), he wrote he didn't observe any criminal activity. He was recalled to washington for pyschological evaluation- and i can see it, not pulling the company line would be crazy

does it say something that TX state police officers would feel comfortable enough to stop in and use the davidian range, out of convenience, unannounced ? - that doesn't exactly shout "criminal activity hotbed" to me,

what also came out in the hearings, ATF agents were at Ft Hood, training for the assault, six months in advance of the actual assault, using a mock up of the davidian property, and at that training, bragging to their army spec forces trainers how "this was going to be big time, tv cameras, lights, movies..." - but after all, that's only congressional hearing testimony that was unrefuted by ATF.

after all the postings on this forum about how totally & fundamentally corrupt ATF HQ is, you want to believe and pump the "company line"?
you might get your facts from somewhere other than the company water cooler - but i'm done with this conversation, i hear the wife unit calling

No. THe sheriff didn't say that. Good try though. He was supportive of ATF throughout. They didn't go out to the range and shoot with the Davidians, due to the fact that these people were nuts. Did you forget that the county tried Koresh for attempted murder?? ATF made enough mistakes that day without you making up stuff - (actually quote from one of the defense attorneys that represented the Davidians after watching the conspiracy movies). Why don't you go back to working on the Oklahoma City and 9/11 conspiracies.

atftruthteller, out of respect to old school's request, i'll leave my response to this - go back and view the cspan tapes on the congressional hearings. it came out there

plus one question re a statement the sheriff of waco made on camera - "if they (ATF) wanted Koresh, hell they could have asked me to call him in - i've called him into my office two times before and he came in, no problem. Or they could have picked him up while he was jogging - everyone knew he jogged every morning at 6:00 AM."

why didn't they???

Seriously, check your information. This is the crap that comes out of people who listen to crazy people. How about this. The sheriff refused to send his people out there anymore because every time they went out, they were surrounded by cult members armed with assault weapons. He didn't go jogging every morning You hear this stuff from anti-government nuts and believe it. You wonder where people like McVeigh come from? From people like you repeating inaccurate crap. Just because someone said it on CSPAN, doesn't mean it happened. Those of us in the undercover house know the truth.

ATFTRUTHTELLER - no argument with anything else you said, but that is the 2nd time you've made that last stmt, expressing concern for the 2nd amendment under any other agency.

i am industry, not ATF but i have to wonder what filtered glasses you're looking thru when you make that stmt. I've posted some pretty outrageous prosecutions (where ATF mgmt committed perjury to convict a dealer). That was not an anomaly - that is the norm - i've got 30 or so more like it. I only collected them and other evidence in case i ever find myself sideways with ATF. But it's not just there - FTB does 180 degree reversals on rulings, often without public notification, putting folks into felony violation status in the blink of an eye. Hell, i was told by that reptilean Theresa Ficaretta, when she was CCO, that a recent ruling reversal, even though the previous ruling had been issued by Ed Owen ( previous chief FTB, who was an arrogant, abrasive asshole, but at least was consistent and honest), that even though my customers had purchased and registered their SBRs under that ruling letter issued to my firm on the very device in question, that those customers were RETROACTIVELY in felony violation, and not due an exemption, even though ATF NFA was complicent in those "felony violations" for having accepted the SBR registrations. But the main point, the ruling reversals on rulings long established, are always further restricting on firearm owners rights - and almost always you have to do mental gymnastics of olympic caliber to keep up with their jumping from ATF english to webster english definitions. They will stretch either to restrict firearms as much as possible, with absolutely no shame or embarrassment on their part.

Other dealers were prosecuted, causing them to spend thousands of dollars defending themselves, because they had accepted the abbreviation "Bltmre" for "Baltimore" on 4473s, even though there's not enough room in the frigging box to write the entire city name. I could go on ad nauseum.

and those are even minor compared to a number of the ones i could detail.


PLEASE TELL ME how it could be worse??? At least if the FBI were enforcing the regs, i could expect some integrity & professionalism in the reg enforcement, which is TOTALLY LACKING with the current ATF mgmt regime.

hell - do a google on len savage, historic arms llc and see the threads that turn up with what ATF has done in terms of rulings on him.

the entire mgmt team at ATF HQ, with few exceptions, as far as I'm concerned, should be frogged marched out the front doors of 99 NY Ave, with Chief reptilean Ficaretta being the first to face the news cameras

don't mean to be harsh, but i haven't seen zilch from ATF HQ in the way of honesty, much less in the way of any interest in safeguarding 2nd amendment rights. You'd have an easier time telling me Hitler was interested in safeguarding the Jews. And no, i'm not a big fan of the NRA


another example, in case anyone from congress is reading this, gunsmiths in TX that "tuned" pistols for the cowboy competitions (now there's a hotbed of criminal activity), were audited and told that because they had swapped barrels on ruger vasquero pistols for customers, installing an octogan barrel, and in doing so they had "manufactured" a new firearm, and that the FET (iirc 10% of market value) was due. After being harangued by ATF with threats of charges for "manufacturing" without the proper 07 FFL (and untold legal defense costs), one of them agreed to a plea bargain - if he would admit to "mfgring" new firearms, there would be no felony violation charges, but he'd have to pay the FET on future such modifications. He agreed. ATF then charged him $28,000 for the FET that was supposedly due on the "newly" manufactured firearms, with fines. EVEN THOUGH RUGER HAD ALREADY PAID THE FET ON THOSE FIREARMS. Interestingly, by ATF's logic in that persecution, if someone installs a barrel on a pumpkin, they've mfgr'd a firearm.

What do you think action like that does, but drive people (mfgrs, innovators, gunsmiths) out of the market. Hell - look at what ATF did to convict that Olsfen guy up in Utah or Idaho over a mis-firing colt - they had to test twice to get it to fire full auto with soft primer ammo, and then it would only do it once, a double fire. Bam - a convicted felon - an accountant that is an officer in the national guard (another flaming indicator of criminal background). What do you think that does to a lot of law abiding citizens but discourage them from owning firearms!!

i could tell you worse stories, but...think WACO - how many folks died over false allegations cause ATF wanted some limelight for the appropriation hearings coming up in congress?.

I don't think you are getting the point. ATF has a strong history of rolling over and pissing it's self when confronted. The FBI won't tolerate being pushed around. That is why back in 1985 the NRA successfully got the ATF disbanded until it became clear that the FBI was taking over the gun laws. The NRA doesn't want ATF disbanded for a reason. The FBI is a powerful, powerful creature. The current regs for dealing with FFLs are a joke. Do you really believe that the FBI would allow them to stay that way.

Also, you are misinformed. Your assumptions about Waco probably go well with your view about the moon landings.

How about SAC Matt Horace? Using his GOV for 2 plus years to work as armed security guard while also working as an agent, misusing his government credit card to buy personal items, misuse of GOV to drive to security job. Firing recommended, PRB: recommends 45 days; DO Ted Royster mitigated down to 4 days off without pay which ncluded a weekend . He was working as an agent in the Comm Ctr in early 90s at that time. He rises through the ranks. AS an ASAC in Seattle, under SAC Kelvin Crenshaw money from the AC fund is missing. He is caught on videotape at office stealing the AC funds. SAC Crenshaw goes after the 2 agents who set up the surviellance equipment to monitor the AC fund file cabinet, but not HORACE. They had to fight to keep their jobs, and finally HQ realizes, because enough bad news was breaking, that HORACE needs to be punished. He went to HQ. As an unsupervised SAC in Denver, he was again using AC funds to buy his lunch then replace the money later. WHO thought promoting from HQ back to the field, into a NON-SAC office was a good idea? So he steals, whatever. Then he gets the SES SAC job in New Jersey. Somehow his GOV is parked in a no parking zone in front of stripper club in the evening hours. He says he was getting a haircut. He sent an email to his division agents to try to cover his actions. REALLY? And this man is still on the job? DOJ OIG if you aren't too busy, maybe read over his red covers in ATF IA. Find out who in the ATF Atty pool he is tight with, because he seems to thrive on his unethical and criminal behaviour. Lack of Candor might even be used to describe his actions.

This is such a great one. He was actually stealing CI files to take attention away from the internal affairs investigation in his lying about damage to his vehicle. The best part is when it came to light, Kelvin throws I.A. out of the division in the middle of the investigation and destroys the tapes. The agents who set up the surveillance camera catching Matt stealing the CI files get days off, put can't appeal since it was a small number and they had the other ASAC give them the days. Don't forget Matt renting an Escalade while in Denver to drive to Vail. He actually ended up getting days off for lying to I.A. and was sent to HQ to rot. Then he get a SAC job. Wait! You can't get promoted after lying directly to I.A. can you??? Vince got fired for a lack of candor.

Well he sounds like a perfect replacement for Melson. Fits the Obama agenda to a tee: Incompetent and corrupt.

How to we force ATF to hold upper management to the same rules of conduct they hold street agents to? Until that happens, we are doomed. A critical element of any organization is faith in your leadership. We do not have that in ATF. We do have some good people in management, but they also seem to be disillusioned with upper management. I would plead with someone in congress to poll the ATF employees to truly identify our frustration. This can not continue. We are all looking at 21 furlough days, but are the SES looking at any cuts? I wouldn't be surprised to see them still collect their 10 - 30% bonuses. ATF seems to be the only agency that is looking at furlough days, while at the same time producing the most jail time criminal cases per agent in DOJ. At the same time, we continue to let SESs get away with actions that would get any street agent fired.

speaking of mis-use or mis-appropriation of gov't funds - there was the chief of the first ATF Aviation division, Marshall Reese, that was finally convicted of embezzling $1.42 million, about 1993/94 from the aviation fund. I've got the story scanned but for some reason the board is coming back with a msg that "that is an invalid image extension.

point of the story is that ATF Medusa fought GAO & DOJ in prosecuting him. Robert Sanders former head of ATF law enforcement division was interviewed for the story - he basically stated what you guys have been saying - ATF mgmt is a "good old boy network with no oversight". It was authored by Jim Pate - he testified at congress about it. Because of it, congress forced ATF to shut down the aviation division

if someone else wants to post it, contact me thru the board - i'll give you the links the image host

This was a great scam.. Set up a shell company to rent the aircraft and then when he retired, they realized that they were paying double of what they should. If I remember correctly, Vanessa was his supervisor and signed off on everything. Nothing ever happened to him. ATF tried to cover this up since it made them look soooo stupid. He pled out as soon as they caught him. It pretty much killed our air wing. Nothing ever happened to his supervisor who signed off on everything.

http://www.greatfoundationinc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15%3Avanessa-mclemore&catid=2&Itemid=2
How much you want to bet she is getting tax payer dollars through her LLC? That would be worth knowing.

http://www.scribd.co...essa-McLemore-1

Holy Crap! She lied to OIG several times during her career and wasn't prosecuted, much less promoted. Seriously! I had no idea until I just read the OIG report the crap she pulled and lied about. Retired with full benefits and brags about her career. This is outrageous.

If we stay FACT based, this is a very important thread we can build on. It is important to show how SIMILARLY situated people were treated differently. They don't have to be EXACTLY situated just similarly. For example, an Agent misuses his government vehicle in some manner and receives 30 day suspension. A SAC, has his car with his gun towed away from a strip club, lies to police and IA and he remains a SAC. These are things that the field can raise in court and administrative actions. Another example, Agent testifies to and supported by other impartial Agents as to perjury or false statements in pursuit of a wiretap to advance a personal vendetta. His termination is proposed, even though EVERY word was corroborated. An ASAC LIES to the OIG, (later characterized as lack of candor and Ronnie Carter immediately adds a new charge to our disciplinary matrix) which according to Larry Nickles and SFFD Attorney Baca is still LYING. This ASAC does this so many times that the OIG has to conduct extra followup interviews to get to the truth. This ASAC, promoted to the Chairman of the professional review board to sit in judgement of field Agents. Then promoted to SAC. See why this is important?

Does Matt Horace have pictures of someone important raping a goat???? I can't figure out how he gets away with all this stuff. It is mind boggling. How about renting a Cadillac Escalade on the govt. dime to drive to Vail. What is a couple of thousand dollars compared to all the other stuff he has gotten away with. My understanding is DOJ OIG doesn't even get reports from ATF on their high ranking people committing violations. Anything involving a GS-15 or above must be reported to DOJ OIG. It takes someone going directly to DOJ OIG to get the ball rolling.

I had a feeling this would be a popular thread.

I've been hearing 'outrageous Vanessa stories' for over 20 years now. Maybe someone could just post a bullet list of her career highlights, and if it gets too lengthy, we can start a separate thread? I hardly think it's fair to leave her out just because no one wants to tackle such a big job. Come on folks, let's not get lazy.

Ditto on Eleanor.

Also, would someone please verify for me that Eleanor was indeed appointed to "Ethics Attorney". I read that somewhere, but I'm guessing that the poster was just being sarcastic. But then again, we are talking about Medusa, so anything is possible.

I don't want to post slander or gossip. I think we can take a little time and post accurate, verified information. I was stunned to see how much information from the OIG report was available on Vanessa. This only involved the time she was the SAC of Atlanta. I still remember we she put out a email while the SAC of Houston stating she was tired of her supervisor in Houston looking "like corporate white america." Problem was, there was only one white male in management for the entire Houston division. She stopped a qualified candidate from getting the job and he sued successfully for her racism. Her punishment was a transfer. I have no idea what Vince supposedly has done, real or fiction, in his career to piss off HQ so badly. One thing is clear, there is no way he has done as much crap as Vanessa was found to have done and she still got promoted and was allowed to retire with honor.

Director Melson, et al. are ON RECORD stating that we must lose 400 Agents by the end of the year or furloughs and or RIFS will have to occur. For the first time in this Bureaus history, ATF is " Officially" asking for early out $$$$ to encourage Agents to leave. At NO time in this agency's history have we seen such a diligent attempt to TERMINATE employees for such trivial oversights as they are wholesale now. Notwithstanding the posture they are taking on the high profile whistle blowers, they are actually voting to terminate stellar agents for "failing to report" fellow agents and supervisors for trivial violations of internal policies. A recent PRB voted to terminate 5 employees in one fell swoop. It would appear that Melson and the SES club have so poorly managed our resources that the field employees must now be targeted to salvage THEIR (the bosses) SES packages.PIPs are being handed out and SACs and ASACs are being directed to "Motivate" employees to leave.
This while NOT ONE of the Senior executive staff PER DAD STEVE MARTIN reported the wholesale conspiracy to traffick in firearms into a foreign nation, refused to respond to Congress and yes perjured themselves across the board. Not one Attorney has been "encouraged to leave for their obvious complicity in these actions. Senior managers have gone unscathed for such acts as publicly disclosing UC trade secrets, giving false testimony in administrative hearings against Agents and inspectors. Senior managers have affairs with subordinates, lie to the OIG, are arrested for heinous conduct in hotel rooms and sit comfortably drawing SES pay and benefits. Our SACs are not supervising any more people than ten years ago, have no larger case loads yet receive the ever so costly SES training and paid transfers at retirement that we shouldn't and cant afford.
Eric Holder, you are on notice..........this is your problem and it AINT GOIN AWAY. How dare you allow the Glory whole supervisor to be transferred and maintain his rank and pay, along with George Gillette, Bill Newell, Bill McMahon, Billy Hoover, Mark Chait, RAC Voth and the other architects of a program so devastating it cost a Border Patrol Agent his life, sit comfortably drawing pay and benefits reserved for the best of the best. They have committed PERJURY.

Well said. Congress only needs to get one of the legendary Dirty Ones (I would go with Matt Horace) in front of a committee. Once under oath, he will give up everyone to save himself. This pattern of corruption and allowing employees who should be prosecuted to be promoted must be exposed. Most citizens wouldn't believe the stuff that upper management gets away with. I don't think we need to use speculation here and bring up theories. We can stick with the facts and let everyone figure out the motives for themselves. Most citizens would assume that ATF upper management is held to a higher standard than a regular street agent. The reality is they hold themselves above the law and rules. The street agents are out everyday trying to do their jobs and protect the citizens of our great nation. ATF upper management seems to be only concerned with their next promotion.

There are a couple of people in ATF that have pulled so much crazy stuff we could set up a topic on each of them.
1. Matt Horace
2. Dick Chase
3. Vanessa McLemore
4. Kelvin Crenshaw
5. John Torres
6. Joe Gordon
7. Larry Ford

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. We promote some people for actions that should get them fired and we fire some people for doing something that got someone else promoted. I would love to see every single charge they made against Vince and Jay, then find an example of "one of the chosen few" getting a promotion for doing the exactly same thing. DAD Marvin Richardson made a chart to standardize punishment for everyone in the agency, but was told that it wouldn't be applied to GS-15s and above. It seems GS-15s and above aren't held to a higher standard, they are held to no standard. Don't get me wrong. There are several outstanding upper managers in ATF, but just like in sales - "treat one customer good and he might tell one other person, treat one customer poorly and he will tell everyone." You don't remember the good managers doing what they should be doing as much as the psychos making everyones life a living hell. In business, if you didn't do your job and cost your company a $1,000,000 you would be looking for a new job. In ATF, they don't even notice and keep doing it.

I honestly do not know but here are a few theories:

1. Vanessa is a black female and b/c ATF has such a long history of racial and sexual discrimination, maybe her bosses were afraid to do anything to her for fear of lawsuits. Although I don't know where these bosses were when I needed them.

2. Because of ATF's long history of discrimination, there was a black class action against the agency. Many blacks were promoted after this lawsuit and maybe she had newly placed higher-ups protecting her.

3. She could have had dirt on higher ups and she was protected b/c someone didn't want her outing them. That happens A LOT at ATF.

4. She could be completely innocent and is being wrongly accused of some pretty horrible things, and if this is the case I hope she sets the record straight.

Whatever the reason she seems to have gotten so many passes, I find in particularly upsetting when a minority gets into a position of power and then becomes as bad or worse than the good old boys. If Vanessa truly did have a chip on her shoulder against white agents, I find that disgusting, she should have known better. I have friends who were part of the black class action lawsuit that I consider to be good honorable men/women, however, I also know several who were merely black bigots, which I personally find more reprehensible than your run-of-the-mill white bigot. As minorities, we can't claim ignorance. We know what it's like to have your life torn apart because someone doesn't like the color of your skin or your lack of certain body parts, or sometimes when someone likes your body parts too much. I'm thinking of you here Manny.

Read the DOJ OIG report and it is clear that for years Vanessa lied to Internal Affairs and was still promoted. Why - it was easier to promote her away than deal with her indiscretions. ATF has a history of this. We do not mandate the best qualified go into management. A blessing to the good hard working street agents and a curse down the road when these idiots becomes big bosses.

Another possibility. I'm guessing taxpayer is sorry she asked.

Where is this OIG report? The only thing I've read was an affidavit of an agent saying she lied about that protective detail and that she tried to get the agent to lie about it also.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27431252/OIG-Report-in-Re-Vanessa-McLemore-1

Well Vince, fabricated lack of candor is much worse than actual crimes....right?

This is what I was hoping for. Documenting how some people seem to get away with murder, while others are targeted for perceived misdeeds.

This information was provided to us this evening through an anonymous source:

"On good authority from a trusted source: Two or three years ago, there was a terribly corrupt ATF Agent Supervisor who was charged in an EEO case that went all the way to federal court. As part of the ensuing settlement, the manager was not to be promoted again. So, what did ATF HQ do? They allowed the supervisor to quit ATF as a GS-14 Agent Supervisor. Twenty-four hours later, they hired him back as a GS-15 Agent Supervisor (in order to bypass the mandatory EEOC settlement provisions). Since he was (re)hired as a GS-15, he "technically" was not "promoted". Clever, eh?

He was then promptly promoted to ASAC."

Of course, you can't forget Matt Horace. Stealing A/C funds as a first level supervisor. Gets days off for lying to I/A. Unreported damage to a GOV as a ASAC, then lies to I/A. Tries to pull attention away from this incident by stealing CI files. DOO and TOO set up secret camera in file room catching Matt in the act. SAC Crenshaw finds out and throw I/A out of division and destroys tapes. Matt is sent off to HQ and told his career is over, then gets promoted to SAC of New Jersey. Crenshaw becomes head of I/A, then gets caught misusing govt. travel. Gets to come back to Seattle as SAC. This really happened. Again, how do you fire Vince for alleged "lack of candor", when you promote people that are given days off for lying to I/A and more.....

Point of clarification: Is Kelvin Crenshaw STILL WITH the BATFE? Still employed? Or does he have a private consulting firm sucking up government grants like Vanessa McLemore?

Still the SAC in Seattle after being the head of OPR/IA in HQ.

Of course, you can't forget Matt Horace. Stealing A/C funds as a first level supervisor. Gets days off for lying to I/A. Unreported damage to a GOV as a ASAC, then lies to I/A. Tries to pull attention away from this incident by stealing CI files. DOO and TOO set up secret camera in file room catching Matt in the act. SAC Crenshaw finds out and throw I/A out of division and destroys tapes. Matt is sent off to HQ and told his career is over, then gets promoted to SAC of New Jersey. Crenshaw becomes head of I/A, then gets caught misusing govt. travel. Gets to come back to Seattle as SAC. This really happened. Again, how do you fire Vince for alleged "lack of candor", when you promote people that are given days off for lying to I/A and more.....

I forgot the best part. The DOO and TOO got days off from setting up a camera in the file room, even thought they had received permission from legal, I/A and HQ. WOW! How do these guys sleep at night.

I wonder how long we will have to scream accountability before there is any.

If someone (congress) looked into the incident in Seattle with Horace and Krenshaw, the whole house of cards would come down. That incident is typical of what is wrong with ATF. Upper management commits crimes and still get promoted. An agent is accused of "lack of candor" and is fired. All you have to do is get one of these guys under oath and they will burn everyone else down.

Let's start a list of things some people get away with, while ATF HQ seems to go after others for minor offenses.

Let's start with Vanessa McLemore. She should be a legend in crazy misdeeds.

How about forcing agents to provide security details to her friends in hope that it would lead to another job for her. Her punishment? Removed as SAC of Atlanta and made Special Assistant to the Director. Anyone else would have been criminal prosecuted. This isn't a story. It's fact!

First off WHERE DID I SAY that everyone in the ATF was a criminal? I submit that you need to learn to READ and pay attention because I never even suggested anything of the sort...but entirely opposite of that. So where are you coming up with that crap?
If youre not saying that I was doing so, then what the hell are you going on about?
My post was NOT slamming anything and if you could actually pay attention you would have figured that out. If anything Ive tried NOT to slam the ATF even though in many ways it deserves it.

So...lets say someone buys 100 guns tomorrow. What is the remedy YOU are suggesting?
You seem to be implying overall that you should have free reign to do whatever regardless of our rights. Is that what youre getting at?

Nice use of passive aggressive. Next time, try "bless their heart"before saying something nice about ATF. My point is it is your right to buy 100 guns. PERIOD. ATF walks a fine line everyday. Pay attention to my post. ATF doesn't need anymore laws. PERIOD. You go on about defunding ATF without taking the time to discuss the problems they encounter. I think very few agents outside those directly involved knew what was going on. I just get tired on the slamming of ATF and that the american public thinks we need to be defunded. Fine. Give the gun laws to the FBI. ATF does not need anymore power or laws. We are underfunded and understaffed and we still do more than most other big federal agencies.

I would say that I think the ATF does 'suck' in a lot of ways...but probably because of what has been explained by Sandy.
I dont know if ATF folk understand this or not, but there is a lot of call for defunding of the ATF entirely.
If something doesnt happen to get upper mgt in line soon it may well become the main priority of 80 million gun owners to get the ATF shut down.
Right now as things stand I have to say Id be for such an effort. Especially seeing that at a time when ATF should being laying low for a while, they instead are trying to bring about MORE rules and regulations that ONLY affect the law abiding.
If things change for the better, however, and ATF becomes what it should be, my views could be changed pretty easily.
Law abiding gun owners like myself have had pretty much all we're willing to take. Every moron who gets into the White house seems to either declare war on us....or pull some underhanded crap that we dont find out about until after the fact (Obama and the Korean M1's comes to mind, not to mention the attempt to destroy a lot of used military brass last year or so).
We appreciate the good guys in the ATF, but if things dont change something is going to have to be done to get the ATF out of the picture altogether....which defunding probably would accomplish.

I certainly dont mean to bash or anything...but Im really just as sick of opening up yahoo.com every other day and seeing some news article that is telling some story about how law abiding gun owners are somehow a threat and need to be disarmed.

I obey the law to the letter. I have perfect credit. I dont litter, dont speed and wear my seatbelt every time. Id say I obey the law better than most cops do. Im courteous to other drivers and everyone I meet...yet somehow *I* end up being painted as a bad guy just because I own some a couple shotguns and a couple revolvers. Its a real pain in the arse sometimes. I feel like we have to watch every damned move Obama and others make to keep them from either openly trying to destroy our rights...or pulling some underhanded nonsense like this UN treaty that has no chance of passing now anyway.
Where does it stop? When do we go after the BAD guys and leave the good guys alone?

Seriously! Enough! 99.9% of everything ATF does is good and serves the people. We strive to protect the 2nd amendment. We put extremely bad people in jail. But we also walk a fine line protecting the 2nd amendment and at the same time enforcing the gun laws. What really happened down in Phoenix still hasn't been reported. I was told that on four occasions agents tried to get a federal search warrant to recover guns sitting in a suspected traffickers safe house after watching the location for over 90 days. Sorry, judge said no. The guns were legally purchased and no crime had occurred. No arrests could occur till they tried to cross the border, if they ever did. Here is another little fact I just learned. Most of the agents who were done there on the GRIT didn't even know what was going on with the wire or that there was even a wire to begin with. Agents in Mexico didn't know. Agents in California didn't know. Agents in Texas didn't know. Here is another little fact. A large number of ATF agents came over from Border Patrol. ATF gets bashed for stuff they don't even do. Yes, agencies make mistakes. Fine with me if you give the gun laws to the FBI. The NRA will never let that happen. A weak and beaten ATF is what the gun lobby wants. I am not a fan of ATF management - period. I think Obama wants ATF gone so he can give the gun laws to the FBI. You leave out the little stories about the big FBI screw ups and attribute them to ATF. Unfortunately, when this is all over and the complete truth comes out, it will be too late for the true story to be reported. ATF missed their chance to tell their side of the story. Here is my one question for you. I know you won't answer it, but dance around. A suspected gun trafficker goes into a gun store and passes the NICS check and wants to buy 100 assault type weapons. What should the ATF agent do? It is his legal right to buy as many guns as he wants. He refuses to explain himself. The purchase is legal. Now what???? They aren't afraid of law enforcement anymore. The cartel will actually cut them into little pieces if they talk. They move the guns around for several months and split them into several stashes. No tracker will last that long. Now what???

Check this out Truthteller,
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal. I have worked ALMOST exclusively firearms trafficking cases and UC ops for my entire career. I am proud to have worked in Atlanta, (admittedly one of the heaviest source States in the Country) and not ONCE did we ever intentionally or knowingly let a firearms slip into the hands of a criminal through a "legal" straw purchaser. You clearly do not understand Terry, Escabedo, Miranda and the Federal rules of criminal procedure. Set down the mail order law book and journey with me into the real world for just a moment. First, if somebody is purchasing 100 semi-automatic rifles on the southwest border and doesn't present his FFL to the seller, you are halfway to PC. That stands for probable cause. Then you do what we ATF Agents call, INVESTIGATE. I really don't have time to break it down for you. However after my dispute with the agency is settled I will give you my email address and I will be glad to share techniques with you NOT on an open forum. Finally, 5 guns is a mistake. 20 guns is a big mistake. 2000 guns is a reckless and dangerous abuse of authority and an obstruction of justice. Stop defending the indefensible. Apparently you haven't gotten the memo that we have lied, concealed and manipulated and withheld the truth from Congress. I am in my 31st year as a badge totin, gun totin law enforcement Agent. I cant think of ONE, (while I'm sure they may be one), time I have lost an appeal, had a case overturned or was successfully sued over a 2nd amendment issue. That's the courts job. Stop whining about the big bad NRA wont let us do our job, and go do it. I don't care what the NRA, GOA or any other partisan group thinks or doesn't think about the laws we enforce. They are the law of the land until Congress changes it. Its a convenient excuse that they wont let us do our job. I have NEVER been hindered, and that statement is supported by an ATF 100% conviction rate over 24 years.

So, rather than address the points I made, you call me a moron. Nice. So if someone buys 100 guns that is PC. PC for what? Your honor, I need a search warrant because someone bought 20 guns. Seriously. So it is a crime to buy too many guns. No. It might make you want to investigate a little. What if he tells you to pound sand and won't talk. So far, you have an individual who bought 20 guns legally, refuses to talk with you and no guns have ever come back on a trace. Your next step is to give him a letter explain dealing without a license, not a search warrant. Next month you have the same guy buy another 10 guns. You go talk to him and he say "NO". Under your statement that is Probable Cause. Seriously?? All you have is a US citizen who purchased 30 guns legally and won't talk to you. Last time I checked it is his legal right to buy guns. Who am I to say how many? If I won the lottery, the list of guns I would buy would be mind boggling. It isn't like it was 20 years ago when the mexican nationals were scared of law enforcement. I am not trying to defend what happened in Phoenix. I know several agents who were there on the GRIT and had no idea what was going on. I can't find any excuse to tell a dealer to make a sale he isn't comfortable with. But I don't think it is right to call everyone in ATF a criminal without understanding the facts. I do see this kind of stunt done in Phoenix being used by the anti-gun lobby to tighten up the gun laws. The last thing ATF needs is anymore laws. We have plenty and not enough people to enforce them. I was only trying to point out some simple facts that seem to have been lost in the slam ATF postings. The point of this site was to bring to light the problems with ATF, not bad mouth every agent working the streets. Or am I wrong?

So difficult to tell why our credibitliy is shot.

If you make a mistake, accept it - own it - correct it - learn from it - improve. No problem.

Lie, get caught in the lie, deny the existence of the lie.... a few people outside the DC beltway view that as unacceptable behavior so all hell breaks loose.

Life is so complicated.

Thanks Zorro,
Great Post. Hopefully ATF will someday learn this lesson.