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Unpunished Misdeeds


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#1 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 05:05 PM

Director Melson, et al. are ON RECORD stating that we must lose 400 Agents by the end of the year or furloughs and or RIFS will have to occur. For the first time in this Bureaus history, ATF is " Officially" asking for early out $$$$ to encourage Agents to leave. At NO time in this agency's history have we seen such a diligent attempt to TERMINATE employees for such trivial oversights as they are wholesale now. Notwithstanding the posture they are taking on the high profile whistle blowers, they are actually voting to terminate stellar agents for "failing to report" fellow agents and supervisors for trivial violations of internal policies. A recent PRB voted to terminate 5 employees in one fell swoop. It would appear that Melson and the SES club have so poorly managed our resources that the field employees must now be targeted to salvage THEIR (the bosses) SES packages.PIPs are being handed out and SACs and ASACs are being directed to "Motivate" employees to leave.
This while NOT ONE of the Senior executive staff PER DAD STEVE MARTIN reported the wholesale conspiracy to traffick in firearms into a foreign nation, refused to respond to Congress and yes perjured themselves across the board. Not one Attorney has been "encouraged to leave for their obvious complicity in these actions. Senior managers have gone unscathed for such acts as publicly disclosing UC trade secrets, giving false testimony in administrative hearings against Agents and inspectors. Senior managers have affairs with subordinates, lie to the OIG, are arrested for heinous conduct in hotel rooms and sit comfortably drawing SES pay and benefits. Our SACs are not supervising any more people than ten years ago, have no larger case loads yet receive the ever so costly SES training and paid transfers at retirement that we shouldn't and cant afford.
Eric Holder, you are on notice..........this is your problem and it AINT GOIN AWAY. How dare you allow the Glory whole supervisor to be transferred and maintain his rank and pay, along with George Gillette, Bill Newell, Bill McMahon, Billy Hoover, Mark Chait, RAC Voth and the other architects of a program so devastating it cost a Border Patrol Agent his life, sit comfortably drawing pay and benefits reserved for the best of the best. They have committed PERJURY.



Well said. Congress only needs to get one of the legendary Dirty Ones (I would go with Matt Horace) in front of a committee. Once under oath, he will give up everyone to save himself. This pattern of corruption and allowing employees who should be prosecuted to be promoted must be exposed. Most citizens wouldn't believe the stuff that upper management gets away with. I don't think we need to use speculation here and bring up theories. We can stick with the facts and let everyone figure out the motives for themselves. Most citizens would assume that ATF upper management is held to a higher standard than a regular street agent. The reality is they hold themselves above the law and rules. The street agents are out everyday trying to do their jobs and protect the citizens of our great nation. ATF upper management seems to be only concerned with their next promotion.

#2 Doc Holiday

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 08:42 AM

Director Melson, et al. are ON RECORD stating that we must lose 400 Agents by the end of the year or furloughs and or RIFS will have to occur. For the first time in this Bureaus history, ATF is " Officially" asking for early out $$$$ to encourage Agents to leave. At NO time in this agency's history have we seen such a diligent attempt to TERMINATE employees for such trivial oversights as they are wholesale now. Notwithstanding the posture they are taking on the high profile whistle blowers, they are actually voting to terminate stellar agents for "failing to report" fellow agents and supervisors for trivial violations of internal policies. A recent PRB voted to terminate 5 employees in one fell swoop. It would appear that Melson and the SES club have so poorly managed our resources that the field employees must now be targeted to salvage THEIR (the bosses) SES packages.PIPs are being handed out and SACs and ASACs are being directed to "Motivate" employees to leave.
This while NOT ONE of the Senior executive staff PER DAD STEVE MARTIN reported the wholesale conspiracy to traffick in firearms into a foreign nation, refused to respond to Congress and yes perjured themselves across the board. Not one Attorney has been "encouraged to leave for their obvious complicity in these actions. Senior managers have gone unscathed for such acts as publicly disclosing UC trade secrets, giving false testimony in administrative hearings against Agents and inspectors. Senior managers have affairs with subordinates, lie to the OIG, are arrested for heinous conduct in hotel rooms and sit comfortably drawing SES pay and benefits. Our SACs are not supervising any more people than ten years ago, have no larger case loads yet receive the ever so costly SES training and paid transfers at retirement that we shouldn't and cant afford.
Eric Holder, you are on notice..........this is your problem and it AINT GOIN AWAY. How dare you allow the Glory whole supervisor to be transferred and maintain his rank and pay, along with George Gillette, Bill Newell, Bill McMahon, Billy Hoover, Mark Chait, RAC Voth and the other architects of a program so devastating it cost a Border Patrol Agent his life, sit comfortably drawing pay and benefits reserved for the best of the best. They have committed PERJURY.

Is this incident in Seattle on here anywhere where I can read up on it?

All these incidents that can be proven need to be pulled together and given to Issa since it will be up to his committee to "reform". The decision in my case can take perjury, conspiracy to coverup, and reprisal of ATF's highest officials back to 1986. It's also a great example of how I.A. is used to retaliate and then the CCO is brought in to use taxpayer dollars to continue the reprisal. I think it's critical that the committee understands that this is a continuing pattern of behavior and not just a recent development that will be solved with a few firings.

Also, a strong argument can be made that ATF was willing to use one of it's cases (Waco) to make a big media splash to take attention away from their (upper managements) actions, which were becoming public. Many still believe that things happened at Waco that might not have had ATF HQ not been trying negate bad press which clouded their already poor judgement. I think this too is becoming a pattern of behavior.



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Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:46 PM

If someone (congress) looked into the incident in Seattle with Horace and Krenshaw, the whole house of cards would come down. That incident is typical of what is wrong with ATF. Upper management commits crimes and still get promoted. An agent is accused of "lack of candor" and is fired. All you have to do is get one of these guys under oath and they will burn everyone else down.


Is this incident in Seattle on here anywhere where I can read up on it?

All these incidents that can be proven need to be pulled together and given to Issa since it will be up to his committee to "reform". The decision in my case can take perjury, conspiracy to coverup, and reprisal of ATF's highest officials back to 1986. It's also a great example of how I.A. is used to retaliate and then the CCO is brought in to use taxpayer dollars to continue the reprisal. I think it's critical that the committee understands that this is a continuing pattern of behavior and not just a recent development that will be solved with a few firings.

Also, a strong argument can be made that ATF was willing to use one of it's cases (Waco) to make a big media splash to take attention away from their (upper managements) actions, which were becoming public. Many still believe that things happened at Waco that might not have had ATF HQ not been trying negate bad press which clouded their already poor judgement. I think this too is becoming a pattern of behavior.

#4 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:28 PM

I wonder how long we will have to scream accountability before there is any.


If someone (congress) looked into the incident in Seattle with Horace and Krenshaw, the whole house of cards would come down. That incident is typical of what is wrong with ATF. Upper management commits crimes and still get promoted. An agent is accused of "lack of candor" and is fired. All you have to do is get one of these guys under oath and they will burn everyone else down.

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:56 AM

How to we force ATF to hold upper management to the same rules of conduct they hold street agents to? Until that happens, we are doomed. A critical element of any organization is faith in your leadership. We do not have that in ATF. We do have some good people in management, but they also seem to be disillusioned with upper management. I would plead with someone in congress to poll the ATF employees to truly identify our frustration. This can not continue. We are all looking at 21 furlough days, but are the SES looking at any cuts? I wouldn't be surprised to see them still collect their 10 - 30% bonuses. ATF seems to be the only agency that is looking at furlough days, while at the same time producing the most jail time criminal cases per agent in DOJ. At the same time, we continue to let SESs get away with actions that would get any street agent fired.



I wonder how long we will have to scream accountability before there is any.

#6 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:12 AM

Well he sounds like a perfect replacement for Melson. Fits the Obama agenda to a tee: Incompetent and corrupt.


How to we force ATF to hold upper management to the same rules of conduct they hold street agents to? Until that happens, we are doomed. A critical element of any organization is faith in your leadership. We do not have that in ATF. We do have some good people in management, but they also seem to be disillusioned with upper management. I would plead with someone in congress to poll the ATF employees to truly identify our frustration. This can not continue. We are all looking at 21 furlough days, but are the SES looking at any cuts? I wouldn't be surprised to see them still collect their 10 - 30% bonuses. ATF seems to be the only agency that is looking at furlough days, while at the same time producing the most jail time criminal cases per agent in DOJ. At the same time, we continue to let SESs get away with actions that would get any street agent fired.

#7 Pama

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 10:57 PM

Still the SAC in Seattle after being the head of OPR/IA in HQ.

Well he sounds like a perfect replacement for Melson. Fits the Obama agenda to a tee: Incompetent and corrupt.

#8 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 07:32 PM

Point of clarification: Is Kelvin Crenshaw STILL WITH the BATFE? Still employed? Or does he have a private consulting firm sucking up government grants like Vanessa McLemore?

Still the SAC in Seattle after being the head of OPR/IA in HQ.

#9 Pama

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 12:48 AM

I forgot the best part. The DOO and TOO got days off from setting up a camera in the file room, even thought they had received permission from legal, I/A and HQ. WOW! How do these guys sleep at night.

Point of clarification: Is Kelvin Crenshaw STILL WITH the BATFE? Still employed? Or does he have a private consulting firm sucking up government grants like Vanessa McLemore?

#10 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 05:57 PM

If we stay FACT based, this is a very important thread we can build on. It is important to show how SIMILARLY situated people were treated differently. They don't have to be EXACTLY situated just similarly. For example, an Agent misuses his government vehicle in some manner and receives 30 day suspension. A SAC, has his car with his gun towed away from a strip club, lies to police and IA and he remains a SAC. These are things that the field can raise in court and administrative actions. Another example, Agent testifies to and supported by other impartial Agents as to perjury or false statements in pursuit of a wiretap to advance a personal vendetta. His termination is proposed, even though EVERY word was corroborated. An ASAC LIES to the OIG, (later characterized as lack of candor and Ronnie Carter immediately adds a new charge to our disciplinary matrix) which according to Larry Nickles and SFFD Attorney Baca is still LYING. This ASAC does this so many times that the OIG has to conduct extra followup interviews to get to the truth. This ASAC, promoted to the Chairman of the professional review board to sit in judgement of field Agents. Then promoted to SAC. See why this is important?

Does Matt Horace have pictures of someone important raping a goat???? I can't figure out how he gets away with all this stuff. It is mind boggling. How about renting a Cadillac Escalade on the govt. dime to drive to Vail. What is a couple of thousand dollars compared to all the other stuff he has gotten away with. My understanding is DOJ OIG doesn't even get reports from ATF on their high ranking people committing violations. Anything involving a GS-15 or above must be reported to DOJ OIG. It takes someone going directly to DOJ OIG to get the ball rolling.

#11 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 05:17 PM

Well Vince, fabricated lack of candor is much worse than actual crimes....right?

This is what I was hoping for. Documenting how some people seem to get away with murder, while others are targeted for perceived misdeeds.

#12 Pama

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 04:46 PM

If we stay FACT based, this is a very important thread we can build on. It is important to show how SIMILARLY situated people were treated differently. They don't have to be EXACTLY situated just similarly. For example, an Agent misuses his government vehicle in some manner and receives 30 day suspension. A SAC, has his car with his gun towed away from a strip club, lies to police and IA and he remains a SAC. These are things that the field can raise in court and administrative actions. Another example, Agent testifies to and supported by other impartial Agents as to perjury or false statements in pursuit of a wiretap to advance a personal vendetta. His termination is proposed, even though EVERY word was corroborated. An ASAC LIES to the OIG, (later characterized as lack of candor and Ronnie Carter immediately adds a new charge to our disciplinary matrix) which according to Larry Nickles and SFFD Attorney Baca is still LYING. This ASAC does this so many times that the OIG has to conduct extra followup interviews to get to the truth. This ASAC, promoted to the Chairman of the professional review board to sit in judgement of field Agents. Then promoted to SAC. See why this is important?


Well Vince, fabricated lack of candor is much worse than actual crimes....right?

#13 VINCENT A CEFALU

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 09:54 PM

If we stay FACT based, this is a very important thread we can build on. It is important to show how SIMILARLY situated people were treated differently. They don't have to be EXACTLY situated just similarly. For example, an Agent misuses his government vehicle in some manner and receives 30 day suspension. A SAC, has his car with his gun towed away from a strip club, lies to police and IA and he remains a SAC. These are things that the field can raise in court and administrative actions. Another example, Agent testifies to and supported by other impartial Agents as to perjury or false statements in pursuit of a wiretap to advance a personal vendetta. His termination is proposed, even though EVERY word was corroborated. An ASAC LIES to the OIG, (later characterized as lack of candor and Ronnie Carter immediately adds a new charge to our disciplinary matrix) which according to Larry Nickles and SFFD Attorney Baca is still LYING. This ASAC does this so many times that the OIG has to conduct extra followup interviews to get to the truth. This ASAC, promoted to the Chairman of the professional review board to sit in judgement of field Agents. Then promoted to SAC. See why this is important?

I forgot the best part. The DOO and TOO got days off from setting up a camera in the file room, even thought they had received permission from legal, I/A and HQ. WOW! How do these guys sleep at night.


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#14 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:20 PM

Of course, you can't forget Matt Horace. Stealing A/C funds as a first level supervisor. Gets days off for lying to I/A. Unreported damage to a GOV as a ASAC, then lies to I/A. Tries to pull attention away from this incident by stealing CI files. DOO and TOO set up secret camera in file room catching Matt in the act. SAC Crenshaw finds out and throw I/A out of division and destroys tapes. Matt is sent off to HQ and told his career is over, then gets promoted to SAC of New Jersey. Crenshaw becomes head of I/A, then gets caught misusing govt. travel. Gets to come back to Seattle as SAC. This really happened. Again, how do you fire Vince for alleged "lack of candor", when you promote people that are given days off for lying to I/A and more.....

I forgot the best part. The DOO and TOO got days off from setting up a camera in the file room, even thought they had received permission from legal, I/A and HQ. WOW! How do these guys sleep at night.

#15 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:18 PM

This information was provided to us this evening through an anonymous source:

"On good authority from a trusted source: Two or three years ago, there was a terribly corrupt ATF Agent Supervisor who was charged in an EEO case that went all the way to federal court. As part of the ensuing settlement, the manager was not to be promoted again. So, what did ATF HQ do? They allowed the supervisor to quit ATF as a GS-14 Agent Supervisor. Twenty-four hours later, they hired him back as a GS-15 Agent Supervisor (in order to bypass the mandatory EEOC settlement provisions). Since he was (re)hired as a GS-15, he "technically" was not "promoted". Clever, eh?

He was then promptly promoted to ASAC."

Of course, you can't forget Matt Horace. Stealing A/C funds as a first level supervisor. Gets days off for lying to I/A. Unreported damage to a GOV as a ASAC, then lies to I/A. Tries to pull attention away from this incident by stealing CI files. DOO and TOO set up secret camera in file room catching Matt in the act. SAC Crenshaw finds out and throw I/A out of division and destroys tapes. Matt is sent off to HQ and told his career is over, then gets promoted to SAC of New Jersey. Crenshaw becomes head of I/A, then gets caught misusing govt. travel. Gets to come back to Seattle as SAC. This really happened. Again, how do you fire Vince for alleged "lack of candor", when you promote people that are given days off for lying to I/A and more.....

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:23 PM

This information was provided to us this evening through an anonymous source:

"On good authority from a trusted source: Two or three years ago, there was a terribly corrupt ATF Agent Supervisor who was charged in an EEO case that went all the way to federal court. As part of the ensuing settlement, the manager was not to be promoted again. So, what did ATF HQ do? They allowed the supervisor to quit ATF as a GS-14 Agent Supervisor. Twenty-four hours later, they hired him back as a GS-15 Agent Supervisor (in order to bypass the mandatory EEOC settlement provisions). Since he was (re)hired as a GS-15, he "technically" was not "promoted". Clever, eh?

He was then promptly promoted to ASAC."


#17 The Original Ralph

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 05:43 AM

Sandy Davis "...Could you give some confirmed details on some of those antics?..."

Sandy - scroll down to post #20 in this very thread - i posted the links to the complete story - all the players are named. when each link loads, put your cursor over the image and left clik again - it'll expand to a readablee size

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:02 AM

NO not Vanessa, she wasn't the supervisor on this as I recall, not even sure she had made that level of the ranks during the airplane mayhem. However, another famous embarrassment was signing off on everything for the great airplane scam and her name: Margie Moore, remember her? She was in the management ranks, and moving right on up, even after this. In fact, this catapulted her career to fast forward. Even the trip to Mexico, or the incident in Philly, or the nephews in Baltimore, and the fun and lies in Williamsburg couldn't slow her path to SAC dom. But looking back, not sure she could hold a candle to the antics of Vanessa. And yes, he doomed the air wing.

Could you give some confirmed details on some of those antics? And Yes, I do indeed remember Margie. She testified at my hearing that ATF was a great place for women to work along with two other female agents. All three were promoted shortly thereafter (within days I think). All my witnesses were fired or suspended, within days. ATF wanted to show everyone how nice it is to be on their side.

Also, she was on my interview panel. Her question to me was, "do you have stick-to-it-ness". That was 25 years ago. :D

#19 Ozark Noodler

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:25 PM

This was a great scam.. Set up a shell company to rent the aircraft and then when he retired, they realized that they were paying double of what they should. If I remember correctly, Vanessa was his supervisor and signed off on everything. Nothing ever happened to him. ATF tried to cover this up since it made them look soooo stupid. He pled out as soon as they caught him. It pretty much killed our air wing. Nothing ever happened to his supervisor who signed off on everything.


NO not Vanessa, she wasn't the supervisor on this as I recall, not even sure she had made that level of the ranks during the airplane mayhem. However, another famous embarrassment was signing off on everything for the great airplane scam and her name: Margie Moore, remember her? She was in the management ranks, and moving right on up, even after this. In fact, this catapulted her career to fast forward. Even the trip to Mexico, or the incident in Philly, or the nephews in Baltimore, and the fun and lies in Williamsburg couldn't slow her path to SAC dom. But looking back, not sure she could hold a candle to the antics of Vanessa. And yes, he doomed the air wing.



chase

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:09 PM

I am tired of hearing certain executives proudly state that they have NEVER been found at fault during a grievance process, when in fact there was some sort of remedy or settlement in which the aggrieved party had to stipulate that the Government is not at fault to receive recompense. And by the way I am not a "management hater". I am proud to say that I am an abuse hater. I mean a generally solid supervisor who operates in good faith).


This must be a relatively new game of Medusa's because used to they always fought to the bitter end. I wonder if they finally learned that when they lose AND have a judge rip them apart in a decision, that that decision hurts them for a very long time in other cases. Plus, then they have someone running around telling everyone who will listen what they did, and handing out copies of the decision. :D And while it is probably easier on the complainant to settle, I can see the problem with it skewing the numbers and allowing bad managers to continue on unabated.

Yes, I truly hate the term "management hater". Like that's why we hate them, not because they take a perverse pleasure in ruining lives. I can honestly say that my ASAC and SAC treated me well and I never had a single reason to complain against either. I thought highly of both of them. Nor do I remember these particular managers having complaints against them by anyone else. I often wondered how they slipped through the cracks. <_<

#21 Cool Hand

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:56 PM

I don't know Sandy, but I will say this: I am tired of hearing certain executives proudly state that they have NEVER been found at fault during a grievance process, when in fact there was some sort of remedy or settlement in which the aggrieved party had to stipulate that the Government is not at fault to receive recompense. I sincerely doubt there are any reprecussions for managers who were the root cause of a settlement (let alone numerous settlements). There are many current managers and executives in ATF (including several not mentioned in this thread) who have cost the Government hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars in damages. I sometimes think that we have managers who rationalize that personnel grievances are an indication of a job well done (i.e. "If the rank and file are filing complaints against me that must mean I am a tough boss who holds people accountable!"). And by the way I am not a "management hater". I am proud to say that I am an abuse hater. I will walk through the gates of hell for a good leader (and I don't mean a perfect boss who never makes mistakes, I mean a generally solid supervisor who operates in good faith).

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 11:38 AM

Does anyone have a closer approximation of how many EEO complaints were filed against her? Were the complainants all white, or were there other minorities filing against her? Was she ever found guilty of discrimination or reprisal?

#23 apostate

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:52 AM

Any legal scholar can clearly see that, based upon ATF's past patterns and practices, they must promote Vince to an SES positions. Any decent lawyer would have a cakewalk .

Funny that dangerous hate-filled racists and serial purjures ( there are many) such as VM in ATF are not fired but celebrated as heroes. How many EEO complaints did she have filed against her? 10, 20, 50?

This agency needs lots of fix'n

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:17 AM

Good question. I'm glad you asked. I have some insight since I worked in Atlanta at one time.

How did ATF discipline McLemore? They promoted her from SAC Atlanta to Special Assistant to the Director under Mike Sullivan. They brought her to Headquarters where she collected per diem. This was done by Sullivan, Carter and Hoover. Once she had her retirement gig in order (by the way a partnership with Ronnie Carter in business helping African Americans find jobs for life after federal employment - a great cause, agreed, but not involving those two) she retired from ATF. But, not just "retired" she was promoted on the ATF webpage as an agency "hero", "mentor" and "trailblazer". The agency webpage solicited gifts on her behalf which I believe is illegal. Then they posted up her sappy "goodbye" message where she rambled about what a great experience she had at ATF. She failed to mention what a totally miserable experience those that worked for her had to endure.

THis is how you are disciplined when you are an SES and you lie on multiple occasions to OIG investigators. Now if you are Vince Cefalu and someone alleges you answered a question with "less than candor" you are terminated.

And the misfit circus of ATF Headquarters wonders why the field hates and disrespects them.

Thanks truth.

Ok -from I what I understand after reading the OIG report, Vanessa was using her subordinate agents as her own personal servants to impress her friends by having them act as security at a book signing and by having them give the residents at her condo building some sort of fire safety class. Then she lied to OIG in a sworn statement, and then later admitted she did indeed lie. It also says that she was suspended in 1992 for lying to investigators (I.A. I'm guessing). The U.S. Attorney's Office declined to prosecute Vanessa saying that ATF could handle any discipline.

I'm sure I'll be sorry I asked, but my questions are, how did ATF discipline Vanessa, who by then had stared showing a pattern of lying to investigators? And, was there any retaliation against those agents who reported the truth about their book signing and fire safety assignments?



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Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:28 AM

Thanks truth.

Ok -from I what I understand after reading the OIG report, Vanessa was using her subordinate agents as her own personal servants to impress her friends by having them act as security at a book signing and by having them give the residents at her condo building some sort of fire safety class. Then she lied to OIG in a sworn statement, and then later admitted she did indeed lie. It also says that she was suspended in 1992 for lying to investigators (I.A. I'm guessing). The U.S. Attorney's Office declined to prosecute Vanessa saying that ATF could handle any discipline.

I'm sure I'll be sorry I asked, but my questions are, how did ATF discipline Vanessa, who by then had stared showing a pattern of lying to investigators? And, was there any retaliation against those agents who reported the truth about their book signing and fire safety assignments?

#26 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:22 AM

Another possibility. I'm guessing taxpayer is sorry she asked.

Where is this OIG report? The only thing I've read was an affidavit of an agent saying she lied about that protective detail and that she tried to get the agent to lie about it also.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27431252/OIG-Report-in-Re-Vanessa-McLemore-1

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:01 AM

Read the DOJ OIG report and it is clear that for years Vanessa lied to Internal Affairs and was still promoted. Why - it was easier to promote her away than deal with her indiscretions. ATF has a history of this. We do not mandate the best qualified go into management. A blessing to the good hard working street agents and a curse down the road when these idiots becomes big bosses.



Another possibility. I'm guessing taxpayer is sorry she asked.

Where is this OIG report? The only thing I've read was an affidavit of an agent saying she lied about that protective detail and that she tried to get the agent to lie about it also.

#28 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 06:49 AM

I honestly do not know but here are a few theories:

1. Vanessa is a black female and b/c ATF has such a long history of racial and sexual discrimination, maybe her bosses were afraid to do anything to her for fear of lawsuits. Although I don't know where these bosses were when I needed them.

2. Because of ATF's long history of discrimination, there was a black class action against the agency. Many blacks were promoted after this lawsuit and maybe she had newly placed higher-ups protecting her.

3. She could have had dirt on higher ups and she was protected b/c someone didn't want her outing them. That happens A LOT at ATF.

4. She could be completely innocent and is being wrongly accused of some pretty horrible things, and if this is the case I hope she sets the record straight.

Whatever the reason she seems to have gotten so many passes, I find in particularly upsetting when a minority gets into a position of power and then becomes as bad or worse than the good old boys. If Vanessa truly did have a chip on her shoulder against white agents, I find that disgusting, she should have known better. I have friends who were part of the black class action lawsuit that I consider to be good honorable men/women, however, I also know several who were merely black bigots, which I personally find more reprehensible than your run-of-the-mill white bigot. As minorities, we can't claim ignorance. We know what it's like to have your life torn apart because someone doesn't like the color of your skin or your lack of certain body parts, or sometimes when someone likes your body parts too much. I'm thinking of you here Manny.


Read the DOJ OIG report and it is clear that for years Vanessa lied to Internal Affairs and was still promoted. Why - it was easier to promote her away than deal with her indiscretions. ATF has a history of this. We do not mandate the best qualified go into management. A blessing to the good hard working street agents and a curse down the road when these idiots becomes big bosses.

#29 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:32 AM

So exactly how did this person survive in this position is she was incompetent? This taxpayer wants to know.


I honestly do not know but here are a few theories:

1. Vanessa is a black female and b/c ATF has such a long history of racial and sexual discrimination, maybe her bosses were afraid to do anything to her for fear of lawsuits. Although I don't know where these bosses were when I needed them.

2. Because of ATF's long history of discrimination, there was a black class action against the agency. Many blacks were promoted after this lawsuit and maybe she had newly placed higher-ups protecting her.

3. She could have had dirt on higher ups and she was protected b/c someone didn't want her outing them. That happens A LOT at ATF.

4. She could be completely innocent and is being wrongly accused of some pretty horrible things, and if this is the case I hope she sets the record straight.

Whatever the reason she seems to have gotten so many passes, I find in particularly upsetting when a minority gets into a position of power and then becomes as bad or worse than the good old boys. If Vanessa truly did have a chip on her shoulder against white agents, I find that disgusting, she should have known better. I have friends who were part of the black class action lawsuit that I consider to be good honorable men/women, however, I also know several who were merely black bigots, which I personally find more reprehensible than your run-of-the-mill white bigot. As minorities, we can't claim ignorance. We know what it's like to have your life torn apart because someone doesn't like the color of your skin or your lack of certain body parts, or sometimes when someone likes your body parts too much. I'm thinking of you here Manny.

#30 Pama

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:31 AM

I had a feeling this would be a popular thread. :D

I've been hearing 'outrageous Vanessa stories' for over 20 years now. Maybe someone could just post a bullet list of her career highlights, and if it gets too lengthy, we can start a separate thread? I hardly think it's fair to leave her out just because no one wants to tackle such a big job. Come on folks, let's not get lazy.

Ditto on Eleanor.

Also, would someone please verify for me that Eleanor was indeed appointed to "Ethics Attorney". I read that somewhere, but I'm guessing that the poster was just being sarcastic. But then again, we are talking about Medusa, so anything is possible.

So exactly how did this person survive in this position is she was incompetent? This taxpayer wants to know.

#31 Pama

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:29 AM

Absolutely, slander/gossip is Medusa's game and beneath us. It's hardly like we need to exaggerate or embellish. Just telling the truth makes us sound unbelievable enough. Posting anything on here that is not factual, would only serve to destroy our credibility which will be needed if there is any hope of correcting these problems. I just thought someone might have Vanessa's stunts in their head.

When talking to lay people about ATF through the years, there have been many times when I held back some of the truth in hopes of sounding less crazy. I just hate to get that, "oh, bless her crazy heart" look. :huh:

Awesome. My anti-Second Amendment tax dollars at work. Gotta tell you folks...this citizen is not pleased with this agency.

#32 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:33 AM

There are a couple of people in ATF that have pulled so much crazy stuff we could set up a topic on each of them.
1. Matt Horace
2. Dick Chase
3. Vanessa McLemore
4. Kelvin Crenshaw
5. John Torres
6. Joe Gordon
7. Larry Ford

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:06 AM

I don't want to post slander or gossip. I think we can take a little time and post accurate, verified information. I was stunned to see how much information from the OIG report was available on Vanessa. This only involved the time she was the SAC of Atlanta. I still remember we she put out a email while the SAC of Houston stating she was tired of her supervisor in Houston looking "like corporate white america." Problem was, there was only one white male in management for the entire Houston division. She stopped a qualified candidate from getting the job and he sued successfully for her racism. Her punishment was a transfer. I have no idea what Vince supposedly has done, real or fiction, in his career to piss off HQ so badly. One thing is clear, there is no way he has done as much crap as Vanessa was found to have done and she still got promoted and was allowed to retire with honor.


Absolutely, slander/gossip is Medusa's game and beneath us. It's hardly like we need to exaggerate or embellish. Just telling the truth makes us sound unbelievable enough. Posting anything on here that is not factual, would only serve to destroy our credibility which will be needed if there is any hope of correcting these problems. I just thought someone might have Vanessa's stunts in their head.

When talking to lay people about ATF through the years, there have been many times when I held back some of the truth in hopes of sounding less crazy. I just hate to get that, "oh, bless her crazy heart" look. :huh:

#34 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 08:43 AM

I had a feeling this would be a popular thread. :D

I've been hearing 'outrageous Vanessa stories' for over 20 years now. Maybe someone could just post a bullet list of her career highlights, and if it gets too lengthy, we can start a separate thread? I hardly think it's fair to leave her out just because no one wants to tackle such a big job. Come on folks, let's not get lazy.

Ditto on Eleanor.

Also, would someone please verify for me that Eleanor was indeed appointed to "Ethics Attorney". I read that somewhere, but I'm guessing that the poster was just being sarcastic. But then again, we are talking about Medusa, so anything is possible.



I don't want to post slander or gossip. I think we can take a little time and post accurate, verified information. I was stunned to see how much information from the OIG report was available on Vanessa. This only involved the time she was the SAC of Atlanta. I still remember we she put out a email while the SAC of Houston stating she was tired of her supervisor in Houston looking "like corporate white america." Problem was, there was only one white male in management for the entire Houston division. She stopped a qualified candidate from getting the job and he sued successfully for her racism. Her punishment was a transfer. I have no idea what Vince supposedly has done, real or fiction, in his career to piss off HQ so badly. One thing is clear, there is no way he has done as much crap as Vanessa was found to have done and she still got promoted and was allowed to retire with honor.

#35 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 08:16 AM

I had a feeling this would be a popular thread. :D

I've been hearing 'outrageous Vanessa stories' for over 20 years now. Maybe someone could just post a bullet list of her career highlights, and if it gets too lengthy, we can start a separate thread? I hardly think it's fair to leave her out just because no one wants to tackle such a big job. Come on folks, let's not get lazy.

Ditto on Eleanor.

Also, would someone please verify for me that Eleanor was indeed appointed to "Ethics Attorney". I read that somewhere, but I'm guessing that the poster was just being sarcastic. But then again, we are talking about Medusa, so anything is possible.

#36 The Original Ralph

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 08:04 AM

This was a great scam.. Set up a shell company to rent the aircraft and then when he retired, they realized that they were paying double of what they should. If I remember correctly, Vanessa was his supervisor and signed off on everything. Nothing ever happened to him. ATF tried to cover this up since it made them look soooo stupid. He pled out as soon as they caught him. It pretty much killed our air wing. Nothing ever happened to his supervisor who signed off on everything.


good memory - i just reread the story and you about nailed it

if anyone's interested

page 1 http://i816.photobuc...onarticle-1.jpg

page 2 http://i816.photobuc...onarticle-2.jpg

page 3 http://i816.photobuc...onarticle-3.jpg

page 4 http://i816.photobuc...onarticle-4.jpg

page 5 http://i816.photobuc...onarticle-5.jpg

#37 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 08:01 AM

http://www.greatfoundationinc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15%3Avanessa-mclemore&catid=2&Itemid=2
How much you want to bet she is getting tax payer dollars through her LLC? That would be worth knowing.


http://www.scribd.co...essa-McLemore-1

Holy Crap! She lied to OIG several times during her career and wasn't prosecuted, much less promoted. Seriously! I had no idea until I just read the OIG report the crap she pulled and lied about. Retired with full benefits and brags about her career. This is outrageous.

#38 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 06:54 AM

speaking of mis-use or mis-appropriation of gov't funds - there was the chief of the first ATF Aviation division, Marshall Reese, that was finally convicted of embezzling $1.42 million, about 1993/94 from the aviation fund. I've got the story scanned but for some reason the board is coming back with a msg that "that is an invalid image extension.

point of the story is that ATF Medusa fought GAO & DOJ in prosecuting him. Robert Sanders former head of ATF law enforcement division was interviewed for the story - he basically stated what you guys have been saying - ATF mgmt is a "good old boy network with no oversight". It was authored by Jim Pate - he testified at congress about it. Because of it, congress forced ATF to shut down the aviation division

if someone else wants to post it, contact me thru the board - i'll give you the links the image host



This was a great scam.. Set up a shell company to rent the aircraft and then when he retired, they realized that they were paying double of what they should. If I remember correctly, Vanessa was his supervisor and signed off on everything. Nothing ever happened to him. ATF tried to cover this up since it made them look soooo stupid. He pled out as soon as they caught him. It pretty much killed our air wing. Nothing ever happened to his supervisor who signed off on everything.

#39 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 06:49 AM

How about SAC Matt Horace? Using his GOV for 2 plus years to work as armed security guard while also working as an agent, misusing his government credit card to buy personal items, misuse of GOV to drive to security job. Firing recommended, PRB: recommends 45 days; DO Ted Royster mitigated down to 4 days off without pay which ncluded a weekend . He was working as an agent in the Comm Ctr in early 90s at that time. He rises through the ranks. AS an ASAC in Seattle, under SAC Kelvin Crenshaw money from the AC fund is missing. He is caught on videotape at office stealing the AC funds. SAC Crenshaw goes after the 2 agents who set up the surviellance equipment to monitor the AC fund file cabinet, but not HORACE. They had to fight to keep their jobs, and finally HQ realizes, because enough bad news was breaking, that HORACE needs to be punished. He went to HQ. As an unsupervised SAC in Denver, he was again using AC funds to buy his lunch then replace the money later. WHO thought promoting from HQ back to the field, into a NON-SAC office was a good idea? So he steals, whatever. Then he gets the SES SAC job in New Jersey. Somehow his GOV is parked in a no parking zone in front of stripper club in the evening hours. He says he was getting a haircut. He sent an email to his division agents to try to cover his actions. REALLY? And this man is still on the job? DOJ OIG if you aren't too busy, maybe read over his red covers in ATF IA. Find out who in the ATF Atty pool he is tight with, because he seems to thrive on his unethical and criminal behaviour. Lack of Candor might even be used to describe his actions.



This is such a great one. He was actually stealing CI files to take attention away from the internal affairs investigation in his lying about damage to his vehicle. The best part is when it came to light, Kelvin throws I.A. out of the division in the middle of the investigation and destroys the tapes. The agents who set up the surveillance camera catching Matt stealing the CI files get days off, put can't appeal since it was a small number and they had the other ASAC give them the days. Don't forget Matt renting an Escalade while in Denver to drive to Vail. He actually ended up getting days off for lying to I.A. and was sent to HQ to rot. Then he get a SAC job. Wait! You can't get promoted after lying directly to I.A. can you??? Vince got fired for a lack of candor.

#40 Pama

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 02:00 AM

Let's start a list of things some people get away with, while ATF HQ seems to go after others for minor offenses.

Let's start with Vanessa McLemore. She should be a legend in crazy misdeeds.

How about forcing agents to provide security details to her friends in hope that it would lead to another job for her. Her punishment? Removed as SAC of Atlanta and made Special Assistant to the Director. Anyone else would have been criminal prosecuted. This isn't a story. It's fact!

http://www.greatfoundationinc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15%3Avanessa-mclemore&catid=2&Itemid=2
How much you want to bet she is getting tax payer dollars through her LLC? That would be worth knowing.

#41 Pama

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 01:45 AM

A couple years back a mean hateful racist RAC was in Raleigh? Don't recall his name, he was native to Boston area. Seems he liked the N word, and hated anyone he considered a N. So much so he went after the only black agent in the office. Called a buddy who was in IA, Greg Plott that is, and had Greg follow him. Finally got a very weak GOV misuse against the black agent. Then they stuck him on a desk without a gun or GOV for 10 months. The RAC bragged about going to get rid of the N to anyone he thought was openminded to his abusive crap. Seems some white guys don't take kindly to that crap in the south, so they let the black agent know. He speaks with his ASAC who then interviewed a few people, then he contacts IA, who looks into the mess. The RAC was sent almost immediately to HQ, the black agent had to do 30 days for the GOV misuse, the RAC never misses one minute of work, and ends up a street 14 in Boston. Brer Rabbit , please don't throw me in that briar patch? They let the guy go back to home, no money lost, he just doesn't get to supervise. And he never missed a day of work without pay. Not sure if had to do diversity training, but seems he should be another one of those folks who Lacks Candor. And what of Greg Plott, well he doesn't get to transfer to Raleigh because of his involvement and the black agent still being in Raleigh, so he has to stay in HQ. They make it up to him by promoting him. See if you are in IA, you don't do personal favors for RACs you happen to know. You need to work through official channels, not just allow yourself to be someone's pawn in their evil racist game.

Sad part is that before that evil RAC was caught, he also didn't like anyone he thought to be lesbian, so a new female agent who's preference wasn't known, ended up loosing her new job, because the evil RAC was sure she was a lesbian. That was never investigated, because by the time he was caught, she was already off the job.


Are you of the impression that "diversity training" would have stopped this bully?

#42 The Original Ralph

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:02 PM

speaking of mis-use or mis-appropriation of gov't funds - there was the chief of the first ATF Aviation division, Marshall Reese, that was finally convicted of embezzling $1.42 million, about 1993/94 from the aviation fund. I've got the story scanned but for some reason the board is coming back with a msg that "that is an invalid image extension.

point of the story is that ATF Medusa fought GAO & DOJ in prosecuting him. Robert Sanders former head of ATF law enforcement division was interviewed for the story - he basically stated what you guys have been saying - ATF mgmt is a "good old boy network with no oversight". It was authored by Jim Pate - he testified at congress about it. Because of it, congress forced ATF to shut down the aviation division

if someone else wants to post it, contact me thru the board - i'll give you the links the image host

#43 Ozark Noodler

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:54 PM

A couple years back a mean hateful racist RAC was in Raleigh? Don't recall his name, he was native to Boston area. Seems he liked the N word, and hated anyone he considered a N. So much so he went after the only black agent in the office. Called a buddy who was in IA, Greg Plott that is, and had Greg follow him. Finally got a very weak GOV misuse against the black agent. Then they stuck him on a desk without a gun or GOV for 10 months. The RAC bragged about going to get rid of the N to anyone he thought was openminded to his abusive crap. Seems some white guys don't take kindly to that crap in the south, so they let the black agent know. He speaks with his ASAC who then interviewed a few people, then he contacts IA, who looks into the mess. The RAC was sent almost immediately to HQ, the black agent had to do 30 days for the GOV misuse, the RAC never misses one minute of work, and ends up a street 14 in Boston. Brer Rabbit , please don't throw me in that briar patch? They let the guy go back to home, no money lost, he just doesn't get to supervise. And he never missed a day of work without pay. Not sure if had to do diversity training, but seems he should be another one of those folks who Lacks Candor. And what of Greg Plott, well he doesn't get to transfer to Raleigh because of his involvement and the black agent still being in Raleigh, so he has to stay in HQ. They make it up to him by promoting him. See if you are in IA, you don't do personal favors for RACs you happen to know. You need to work through official channels, not just allow yourself to be someone's pawn in their evil racist game.

Sad part is that before that evil RAC was caught, he also didn't like anyone he thought to be lesbian, so a new female agent who's preference wasn't known, ended up loosing her new job, because the evil RAC was sure she was a lesbian. That was never investigated, because by the time he was caught, she was already off the job.



chase

#44 Ozark Noodler

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:37 PM

How about SAC Matt Horace? Using his GOV for 2 plus years to work as armed security guard while also working as an agent, misusing his government credit card to buy personal items, misuse of GOV to drive to security job. Firing recommended, PRB: recommends 45 days; DO Ted Royster mitigated down to 4 days off without pay which ncluded a weekend . He was working as an agent in the Comm Ctr in early 90s at that time. He rises through the ranks. AS an ASAC in Seattle, under SAC Kelvin Crenshaw money from the AC fund is missing. He is caught on videotape at office stealing the AC funds. SAC Crenshaw goes after the 2 agents who set up the surviellance equipment to monitor the AC fund file cabinet, but not HORACE. They had to fight to keep their jobs, and finally HQ realizes, because enough bad news was breaking, that HORACE needs to be punished. He went to HQ. As an unsupervised SAC in Denver, he was again using AC funds to buy his lunch then replace the money later. WHO thought promoting from HQ back to the field, into a NON-SAC office was a good idea? So he steals, whatever. Then he gets the SES SAC job in New Jersey. Somehow his GOV is parked in a no parking zone in front of stripper club in the evening hours. He says he was getting a haircut. He sent an email to his division agents to try to cover his actions. REALLY? And this man is still on the job? DOJ OIG if you aren't too busy, maybe read over his red covers in ATF IA. Find out who in the ATF Atty pool he is tight with, because he seems to thrive on his unethical and criminal behaviour. Lack of Candor might even be used to describe his actions.



chase

#45 The Original Ralph

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:25 PM

Ralph, thank you for making that clear. I was just about to have to google some of these terms to figure out exactly what in the hell went on down there.


hey, be grateful, there's still some "colloquial expressions" my boot camp drill instructor burnt into my then 18 yr old brain, that to this day i haven't fully deciphered, google or not, some not only contradictory but downright physically impossible to accomplish

and that was some 43-44 yrs ago

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 08:25 PM

.

#47 Guest_Sandy Davis_*

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 08:16 PM

there's also the reports here of the treatment that pervert in New Orleans got - i can't offer any hard documentation on what happened to him, only what's been reported here, that the new orleans charges for destruction of private property were dropped, and apparently using a gov't or medusa credit card to rent two rooms at a hotel for pole smoking activity is rewarded with assignment to work at home

insert sound of ralph smacking self on back of head for being politically incorrect and insensitive: change "for pole smoking activity" to read "for gratuitous wanton same sex oral sexual gratification with totally random strangers" and somehow read that as non-judgementally as possible


Ralph, thank you for making that clear. I was just about to have to google some of these terms to figure out exactly what in the hell went on down there.

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 08:07 PM

Oh my, where to even start.

Ok - SAC is a serial harasser, but just keeps getting lateral moves after sexual harassment complaints chase him all over creation. And I'm not talking a little pat on the behind either; this was one sick puppy. Finally, it just gets to the point that even ATF can't justify not doing something, so they give him a so-called "demotion" - SAVED PAY of course. And I swear, I think taxpayers moved him AGAIN. (Manny, if you would still like to sue me for slander, I'm pretty easy to find ;) ). Lol - slander? Who in the hell could possibly slander you?

Meanwhile, Dan Hartnet gets busy trying to cover up for the SAC by slandering harassed applicant. Of course, the very first thing he does is to call I.A. in to conduct applicant's pre-employment background check (first time in ATF history I.A. was needed to conduct a routine background check). But as Hartnet later told the judge, he wanted to ensure the applicant was given a "fair and impartial" investigation. I don't know about fair and impartial, but the background check was definitely lengthy. I.A. dug around intensely for 6 months trying to come up with dirt on applicant. They finally discovered that applicant had tried pot when she was 16, so that was the time of applicant's life that I.A. focused on. Yes, these big, brave, fearless "men" conducted an investigation on a 16 year old little girl. These 'fighters for justice' were paid to dig up dirt on a child. When the truth started shaking out, it turns out that the pre-employment "background check" was started BEFORE applicant even filled out the background form giving ATF permission to investigate her. Weeks before! Applicant was a private citizen who wasn't sure she even wanted the job at that point. Maybe that's one of the reasons a judge later wrote off the entire I.A. investigation as "pre-textual". Pre-textual? Internal Affairs? Surely not.

Fast forward to the EEOC hearing - Administration Law Judge is so appalled, she writes a 40 page decision wherein she cites Danny boy, Phil McQuire, and I.A. agents (as well as I.A. Director Frank Nickols) of perjury, conspiracy to cover up the original complaint, and reprisal. McQuire retired - nothing punitive for him. What happened to Hartnet? He was quickly rewarded with a promotion to the number one spot in the agency just under the director. I'm guessing the two I.A. agents, as well as their director, were also rewarded. All three women who testified that ATF was a great place for women to work, were all promoted shortly after their little dog and pony show. Applicant never got so much as a "thank you" from them either.

What happened to all applicant's witnesses who were employed by Medusa? Fired or suspended - IMMEDIATELY of course. Got to make sure agents know not to tell the truth when Medusa is trying to cover up said truth. It is after all the unpardonable sin.

So a few years go by and Hartnet gets caught lying about Waco and trying to cover up all that mess. Gee, who would have seen that coming? What a VILE little man! My God, talk about your Napoleon complex. (Dan, maybe you can hook up with Manny and you can both sue me for slander. But I have to warn you; I'm all grown up now :) ).

I'll let someone else report on what all Medusa got caught doing during/after Waco - I had to take a break from these lying little men and I stopped paying attention.

#49 The Original Ralph

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:52 PM

there's also the reports here of the treatment that pervert in New Orleans got - i can't offer any hard documentation on what happened to him, only what's been reported here, that the new orleans charges for destruction of private property were dropped, and apparently using a gov't or medusa credit card to rent two rooms at a hotel for pole smoking activity is rewarded with assignment to work at home

insert sound of ralph smacking self on back of head for being politically incorrect and insensitive: change "for pole smoking activity" to read "for gratuitous wanton same sex oral sexual gratification with totally random strangers" and somehow read that as non-judgementally as possible

#50 ATFTRUTHTELLER

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:59 PM

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. We promote some people for actions that should get them fired and we fire some people for doing something that got someone else promoted. I would love to see every single charge they made against Vince and Jay, then find an example of "one of the chosen few" getting a promotion for doing the exactly same thing. DAD Marvin Richardson made a chart to standardize punishment for everyone in the agency, but was told that it wouldn't be applied to GS-15s and above. It seems GS-15s and above aren't held to a higher standard, they are held to no standard. Don't get me wrong. There are several outstanding upper managers in ATF, but just like in sales - "treat one customer good and he might tell one other person, treat one customer poorly and he will tell everyone." You don't remember the good managers doing what they should be doing as much as the psychos making everyones life a living hell. In business, if you didn't do your job and cost your company a $1,000,000 you would be looking for a new job. In ATF, they don't even notice and keep doing it.




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