Suggestions for the Acting Deputy Director
#151
Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:09 PM
"Contrary to popular belief, there is no computerized database the ATF can search to find a gun owner. The ATF uses 20th century technology -- the telephone -- to first call the company that made the firearm. "We have to have them look into their records and tell us what they did with it," Houser said. "And we follow the chain of distribution of the firearm all the way until we find a retail purchase."
That's only part of the story (perhaps an official 'half-truth'. Mr. Houser seems to be overlooking some of the computerized databases at the NTC. According to Wikipedia (taken from official ATF sources), there are five databases of ATF firearms registration records that contain names and addresses of owners, along with other personal information: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETrace)
1. Multiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address - increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.
2. Suspect Guns. All guns "suspected" of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms (including collectors of older firearms rarely used in crime), and dealers with "improper" record keeping. May include guns “observed” by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere. Reported as 34,807 in 2010.
3. Traced Guns. Over 1.2 million (2002) detail results from all traces. ATF reported 343,746 guns were traced in 2009, and a total of 4 million traces since inception.This is a registration record which includes Names and Addresses of the first retail seller and purchaser.
4. Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form - in digital or image format. [This database can't be directly searched?] In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968.
5. Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010.[7] Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional). Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported.
#152
Posted 21 March 2011 - 12:46 AM
#153 Guest_ONCE PROUD_*
Posted 20 March 2011 - 10:08 PM
#154
Posted 20 March 2011 - 06:15 PM
I hope I am wrong about the benefit of this website. I want this agency to be what is should be. Not filled with discontented and demoralized agents beaten down by bureaucrats and political hacks. I understand your anger, been there. Was angry for many years about my situation and the situation of others just trying to do the right thing. But you know what, that anger begins to really consume your life. Almost cost me my marriage. Eventually you have to let it go, the anger I mean. For me I figured out that if I can get up every day and go to work with the mindset of doing what I knew to be right, then I was winning the fight. To me keeping faith with my brothers and sister agents and supporting them day to day is my mission now. Small victories is all I work for now.
I saw your post and the part highlighted above hit a chord with me so I just wanted to comment. Yep, I had that anger and it consumed me to the point of depression, but thankfully it also worked to fuel my fight. That was when the IOIs were covered by the union and I went to the union after a series of issues including harrassment from management, "admonishment" letters, a 5-day suspension, etc. -- all because I was exercising my right to grieve management actions. The union had a great attorney who worked with us for over 2 years (i.e. I didn't have to pay out-of-pocket and deplete family finances to fight). Unfortunately, we ran into the same problems with HQ as many others on this site have and are encountering - lack of timely responses, dismissing grievances without any authority to do so, producing documents the night before a scheduled hearing, continual requests for extensions, retaliation because of the grievances, etc. After about 2 1/2 years when everything was resolved and an agreement was reached, I could not seem to shake the anger I continued to feel. This website did not exist at that time (at least to my knowledge) and I had that feeling of aloneness others have mentioned in their posts ... along with fear of what was coming next from management. I can't say that it almost cost me my marriage, but it wasn't a happy time. For me, I needed to let the anger go to survive and move on and that would have been a heck of a lot easier had this website been up and running back then.
I was ecstatic to see this site developed and I believe it is needed. Employees have no other place to air their frustrations and to "discuss" management matters . . . unless they have a confidant in their office. I've learned, however, not to put my faith in coworkers - I save that for God alone. As referenced in one of your earlier posts, I don't find this site entertaining - I find it sad that ATF has so many people at the top who have so little regard for others and themselves. It is sad that so many employees and their families are affected by ATF's mis-management. My heart breaks for people who are in daily battles with management ... because I remember what it was like. As you suggested in one post, why the heck would we want to "engage" with those we are hammering? I want nothing to do with management. Let me do my work and leave me alone.
But is this site beneficial to employees? You bet ya! I'm thankful for those who developed the site and for all of the insite I and others have received from the webmaster, moderators and other members. Sometimes you've just got to do what's right and management isn't doing it. Do I want to see ATF dissolved or our functions go to another agency? Nope, but if management can't get it together maybe that would be best. And to answer one of your previous questions, I think everyone who browses this website feels better after doing so. I, for one, feel encouraged that I'm not alone and that I now have others to vent with ... even though I may not know their "real" names.
Have a great day everyone!
#155
Posted 20 March 2011 - 11:45 AM
To say some would "destroy" ATF is true and you can count me in that category. The arrogance and corruption of standards / integrity is so bad, on one occasion i actually asked one of the few people at HQ Wash DC, that I trust: "had lying become a professional responsibility at ATF?", to which he responded "Unfortunately yes - no one here knows how to apologize when they're wrong and made a mistake, instead they immediately go to circling the wagons mode".
If you had a house, built on loose sand on the edge of a swamp, and with a termite infestation that's been active for 20+ years, do you try to renovate that structure, or knock it down and rebuild it on firmer soil with termite shields. I learned a long time ago in a situation like that it's smarter, more efficient and with a much higher expectation of successful results to build new.
just 02 from an old fart that's been there
#156
Posted 13 March 2011 - 07:17 AM
#157
Posted 12 March 2011 - 04:25 PM
#158
Posted 12 March 2011 - 11:13 AM
organization was formed.
First and foremost this organization has lost the idea that they are public servants and work for the people (my opinion). I do not believe the organization is working in the best interest of the taxpayer and citizen. There is a mission to be performed. I just believe the organization has lost site of that mission.
Sorry if you are an employee, which I suspect. This is not a personal comment about your service and contributions since I don't know you personally. I am sure that if you are a good public servant, you will have no problem finding a job where you can more positively contribute to the tax payers needs.
JohnM
#159
Posted 07 March 2011 - 11:10 AM
First they came…" is a famous statement attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. The text of the quotation is usually presented roughly as follows:
First they came....
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
-------------------
#160
Posted 06 March 2011 - 11:15 PM
God Bless Agents Dobyns and Dodson.
John Boy, I've gotten word of who you are and Jumper is right. We disagree on this website but your service at Waco and elsewhere make you instantly credible so I will respect your views.
On the topic of enemies, ATF will always have its enemies. But the stronger enemy has emerged from within and as you know, the only way to chase the cockroaches out is shine a light on them. When your peers exposed themselves to speak out on Waco didn't you remain concealed and hidden giving a statement in shadows? John Dodson didn't. Vince Cefalu hasn't. Frank D'Alesio won't. Hiram Andres couldn't. Some of those who ATF attempted to destroy did what management wanted them to. Roll over, keep quiet, retire or wait for time to pass so they can return to good graces and have a new cushy job. Others have not. I'll come out an be honest, if not embarrassed. I'm not about to. I can't stand the heat. I am one of the ones silent in the shadows.
I understand you work with Dobyns on NIBIN (thank you Webmaster for taking up for my friends Jay and Vince). I think you should tell him to keep quite and solve his problem "in house". I challenge you to have the conversation with him. Do you have any idea what ATF did to him? Even the slightest? The details of those events that most of ATF is aware of are those that have been spun out of HQ (take the credibility of the HQ sources for whatever you feel they are worth). The Dobyns debacle is one the great personal tragedies ever at ATF. No comparison to Ariel Rios, Waco or Brian Terry's murder but none-the-less a black eye on ATF for allowing what has happened to him. Very discouraging to anyone here who ever laid it on the line and of all people you know that.
Before I signed on to read today's banter I checked this site and found this posting. Read the comments and give Jay a call. http://blog.jaydobyn...?p=325#comments You complain about this website spinning inaccurate information. Pick up the phone and tell him you are defending the people that have permitted and continue for this to happen.
What is too be accomplished at CUATF? This is not my platform but change, hopefully. Accountability. That might be naive, maybe improbable, likely impossible. Do you want to sit back after what you have been through and cross your fingers that things will get better? ATF has declined since Waco. That is not good enough for a lot of people who view this agency as more than a regular paycheck. Is there anyone at ATF that you feel is going to step up and right the wrongs? I want to find the hope that you have somehow found. John Boy consider this. ATF has 5000 employees, maybe 2500 agents. Of those only a very small portion will stand up to the machine for good "survival instinct" reasons. So if this site is as you claim not accomplishing anything how do you account for over 150,000 viewings and thousands of postings? Your topic alone has almost 1,000 viewings since it was created 24 hours ago.
Lots of people are watching and most are not ATF personnel and the numbers confirm that. Are some ATF's enemies? Without a doubt. But are some oversight agencies, government watchdogs, independent bloggers, members of Congress and the Senate, the Attorney General's office, the White House, the State Department, Foreign governments, civilians. You bet they are. This site is causing change, they are just not doing it the way you want them to.
Again, give us an idea. You passed on the request to come to HQ.
#161
Posted 06 March 2011 - 08:45 PM
#162
Posted 06 March 2011 - 06:53 PM
#163 Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 06:32 PM
Who ever said that "we have it all figured out?" You so arrogantly keep putting words into other mouths and attributing motives to people you don't know from Adam. My problem with you, Johnny Boy, is not that we disagree as to the purpose and utility of this website, but that you so sanctimoniously jump on here and call us all liars (tellers of "lies and half truths") as if you are the Grand Arbiter of Truth. That really pissed me off, and I can boot you outta here with a casual click of a mouse. But, you're still here, aren't you (despite the petty sarcasm)?Well I am glad you have it all figured out. I now can sleep better at night, again thanks
Yup.No one will know how this plays until it does so we are ALL guessing on this website.
How would you possibly know whether or not I am a "disinterested party"? You don't know squat about me. Do other ATF Agents operate on WAGS and ass-umptions like you do? I sure hope not. And who here has ever suggested that you “rely on just my (or anyone else’s) version of the facts?” Once again, you put words in other people’s mouths.Since you are not a disinterested party I cant rely on just your version of the facts.
Yup.Anyone can post here and say whatever they want.
But don't talk down to me or suggest that you have a monopoly on the facts.
I will talk to you (or anyone else on this message board) in whatever manner that **I** deem appropriate, since this is my website. This is no “democracy” and there are no First Amendment rights here. If you want to control what people say or do on a website, get your own. What a ginormic ego you must have, repeatedly telling complete strangers on a privately owned website what to do and say. I have never even remotely suggested that I (or we) "have a monopoly on the facts"; yet again, that's you putting words in someone else's mouth (a now familiar characteristic of your posts).
Me too.I hope I am wrong about the benefit of this website.
Good for you, Man. That’s all really nice, but none of it necessarily gives you the right to tell everyone else “how it is” or “isn’t” and how to conduct themselves. I could not possibly disagree more vehemently with your pompous pronouncement that everyone has to “let their anger go”, particularly if that anger is justifiably based on legitimate wrongs. Who put you in charge of what other people feel or what emotions fuel their efforts to achieve positive change? Some things are worth being angry about. The Founding Fathers were downright ticked-off much of the time, and I'm sure glad they didn't just "let it go". Now, I am certainly not comparing this stuff to them, but you just go on winning your "small victories" and let us try to win ours.I want this agency to be what is should be. Not filled with discontented and demoralized agents beaten down by bureaucrats and political hacks. I understand your anger, been there. Was angry for many years about my situation and the situation of others just trying to do the right thing. But you know what, that anger begins to really consume your life. Almost cost me my marriage. Eventually you have to let it go, the anger I mean. For me I figured out that if I can get up every day and go to work with the mindset of doing what I knew to be right, then I was winning the fight. To me keeping faith with my brothers and sister agents and supporting them day to day is my mission now. Small victories is all I work for now.
The people and entities that want to do away with ATF and “pervert the good” that its people do every day will do their thing irrespective of this website. And this site isn't about the good that ATF does (ATF management trumpets that almost every day, even when it's not entirely true)...it's about the bad that its managers do against their own employees, and that hurts the Bureau's mission effectiveness and shortchanges the American taxpayer. If those facts are enough to bring ATF down, then it was bound to happen anyway.What is the solution? I wish I could give you a good answer. I know the frustration and despair all too well. I just know that those in this country who want to do away with us will use this website to further their own agenda and pervert the good we do every day.
Likewise.God bless and best wishes to you, I hope you find the justice you seek.
#164 Guest_CovertOne_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 03:42 PM
On the topic of enemies, ATF will always have its enemies. But the stronger enemy has emerged from within and as you know, the only way to chase the cockroaches out is shine a light on them. When your peers exposed themselves to speak out on Waco didn't you remain concealed and hidden giving a statement in shadows? John Dodson didn't. Vince Cefalu hasn't. Frank D'Alesio won't. Hiram Andres couldn't. Some of those who ATF attempted to destroy did what management wanted them to. Roll over, keep quiet, retire or wait for time to pass so they can return to good graces and have a new cushy job. Others have not. I'll come out an be honest, if not embarrassed. I'm not about to. I can't stand the heat. I am one of the ones silent in the shadows.
I understand you work with Dobyns on NIBIN (thank you Webmaster for taking up for my friends Jay and Vince). I think you should tell him to keep quiet and solve his problem "in house". I challenge you to have that conversation with him. Do you have any idea what ATF did to him? Even the slightest? The details of those events that most of ATF is aware of are those that have been spun out of HQ (take the credibility of the HQ sources for whatever you feel they are worth). The Dobyns debacle is one the great personal tragedies ever at ATF. No comparison to Ariel Rios, Waco or Brian Terry's murder but none-the-less a black eye on ATF for allowing what has happened to him. Very discouraging to anyone here who ever laid it on the line and of all people you know that.
Before I signed on to read today's banter I checked this site and found this posting. Read the comments and give Jay a call. http://blog.jaydobyn...?p=325#comments You complain about this website spinning inaccurate information. Pick up the phone and tell him you are defending the people that have permitted and continue for this to happen.
What is to be accomplished at CUATF? This is not my platform but change, hopefully. Accountability. That might be naive, maybe improbable, likely impossible. Do you want to sit back after what you have been through and cross your fingers that things will get better? ATF has declined since Waco. That is not good enough for a lot of people who view this agency as more than a regular paycheck. Is there anyone at ATF that you feel is going to step up and right the wrongs? I want to find the hope that you have somehow found. John Boy consider this. ATF has 5000 employees, maybe 2500 agents. Of those only a very small portion will stand up to the machine for good "survival instinct" reasons. So if this site is as you claim not accomplishing anything how do you account for over 150,000 viewings and thousands of postings? Your topic alone has almost 1,000 viewings since it was created 24 hours ago.
Lots of people are watching and most are not ATF personnel and the numbers confirm that. Are some ATF's enemies? Without a doubt. But are some oversight agencies, government watchdogs, independent bloggers, members of Congress and the Senate, the Attorney General's office, the White House, the State Department, Foreign governments, civilians. You bet they are. This site is causing change, they are just not doing it the way you want them to.
Again, give us an idea. You passed on the request to come to HQ.
I am not disagreeing with your point. I wish I had a solution. ATF has serious problems. I have been battling with HQ for the past year and had no success. We have promoted a lot of people who should have been fired. One of the problems in ATF is we give people the choice of being promoted or staying a street agent. That same problem allowed me to say no to going to HQ, which I was very happy about. So what is the solution? Take our best street agents and force them into management? That sucks for the good street agents. Continue the current path that allows agents to decide if they want to go into HQ? As a street agent, I really like having that choice. Here is the real problem in ATF. It is easier to promote an idiot away from you than deal with him due to our processes. Ask yourself, have you ever had an idiot in your office and when he put in for a job at another location, the guys there called you and you told them "he's the best guy we got, hate to lose him." In a big agency like the FBI, you might not ever see him again. In ATF, we are learning that plan eventually bites you in the ass.
My issue with all this is that our enemies, and trust me, we have enemies, are laughing as we destroy ourselves. We have problems. We have serious problems in ATF. It is like a pack of wolves watching the two bull moose fight each other. After both moose are exhausted, they will move in and kill both of them. It won't matter which bull was better, they will both be dead and eaten.
Jumper is right, I don't have an answer. I wish I had a solution to fix everything, but I don't. I just don't think this public forum is the answer.
Merry Christmas NRA!
#165
Posted 06 March 2011 - 01:36 PM
I thank God for SA Dodson and SA Cefalu. The courage they have demonstrated over the past year reflects credit upon themselves and ATF. This website gives good workers a place to air their concerns. I am sure there are some parties using this platform for their own agenda but the vast majority of people posting their concerns are good workers who have grown tired of trying to get things done within the mechanisms set up by ATF.Well I am glad you have it all figured out. I now can sleep better at night, again thanks. No one will know how this plays until it does so we are ALL guessing on this website. Since you are not a disinterested party I cant rely on just your version of the facts. Anyone can post here and say whatever they want. But don't talk down to me or suggest that you have a monopoly on the facts.
I hope I am wrong about the benefit of this website. I want this agency to be what is should be. Not filled with discontented and demoralized agents beaten down by bureaucrats and political hacks. I understand your anger, been there. Was angry for many years about my situation and the situation of others just trying to do the right thing. But you know what, that anger begins to really consume your life. Almost cost me my marriage. Eventually you have to let it go, the anger I mean. For me I figured out that if I can get up every day and go to work with the mindset of doing what I knew to be right, then I was winning the fight. To me keeping faith with my brothers and sister agents and supporting them day to day is my mission now. Small victories is all I work for now.
What is the solution? I wish I could give you a good answer. I know the frustration and despair all too well. I just know that those in this country who want to do away with us will use this website to further their own agenda and pervert the good we do every day.
God bless and best wishes to you, I hope you find the justice you seek.
John Boy stated he had his own battles with ATF in the past. OK, so you chose to handle your situation in the manner you saw fit. I do not know how long ago you had your battle with ATF but it obviously did not have a positive impact on the way ATF workers' issues are addressed.
#166
Posted 06 March 2011 - 01:23 PM
#167
Posted 06 March 2011 - 11:54 AM
#168
Posted 06 March 2011 - 11:45 AM
#169 Guest_Jumper_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 10:50 AM
John Boy,CUATF WEBMASTER,
Thanks for making my case. You minimize the example of a anti-ATF organization using this information to distort the truth for their own gain and the response from an ATF agent explaining himself and his opinion. You might check to see if the site "Destroy ATF.org" is available. Jumper, you have my name and phone number. No one in ATF can question my knowledge on Waco or Oklahoma City.
I believe that you are who you say you are in your private message to me. I acknowledge your credibility and although you did not say this I will say if for you, you are one of the heros at ATF. Your sacrifices for ATF and your blood being spilled at Waco will never be disrespected by me. I just can not agree with your evaluation of this website.
How would you advise to create change at ATF? We are listening. Don't just offer a complaint. Please provide a solution. The management of ATF has refused to conduct any self-assessment. They think they are doing a good job. They have shown a complete inablility to discipline their own. Ask yourself this, if you had been the person to approve and allow in access of 2000 guns get lose knowing that they were likely destined for criminals with bad intentions, how would ATF be treating you? We both know, don't we? You would be fertilizer for the spring gardens at ATF Headquarters.
I don't know you well but I know of your reputation. I believe you are a man of exceptional intelligence. So what to do? Use the open door policy at HQ? No such thing. That is all talk that does not truly exist. It sounds good but there is no such thing.
Discuss the issues with ATF executives? They don't want to hear from us (it is my understand that you are experiencing this situation right now).
File some form of formal complaint? Been there and done that numerous times supported by documents and witnesses. No one at the ATF HQ levels cares.
Go do Congress? For years they have allowed ATF to run amuck until Gunrunner and the whistleblowers stepped up and then what happened? ATF committed felonies to intimidate and silence those talking? Then ATF knowingly lied to a US Senator to cover their tracks. I don't believe that you are condoning that.
No one here wants to disrespect you or any of our brothers and sisters who were at Mt. Carmel. The comparison of Gunrunner to Waco is the lies, cover-ups, distortions and the 'save the executives' mentality. We have not distorted the truth. Bottom line is this. ATF knew suspects were trafficking firearms to Mexico's cartel members and permitted it to exist for extended periods of time, actually encouraged and furthered the process. This is not a distortion or lie. As an ATF Agent you know, ATF does not walk guns. We just don't and those who allowed it to happen need to be removed from their jobs. We don't walk guns!
This site is not the end all. But, please tell us what we should do to affect change and reform.
#170
Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:56 AM
#171 Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 08:22 AM
We are not "thinking that we are saving ATF". Most of us don't know if that is even physically possible, given the entrenched nature of the institutional corruption that has come to characterize ATF's top leadership. Nevertheless, we have simply decided to stop acting as if none of these issues exist, and to promulgate a forum for people to discuss it openly, without fully justifiable fear of retribution. We're completely satisfied with the results of that outcome so far.Gotta say you guys are pretty lost thinking that you are saving ATF. You are not. John Boy is right about that.
We have no doubt that there are some, perhaps even "many" as you say, that question the wisdom of the topics posted on this website, and have no difficulty in "believing" this. However, we are also absolutely aware that there a great many in the field who applaud our efforts, because they tell us every day. There are even SACs, RACs, Supervisors and other management officials who surreptitiously express their appreciation and approval regarding what is being discussed here, because it would never happen anywhere else. Some, even in those ranks, are just as sick of the idiocy and oppressive, often draconian approach to employee relations as we are.There are many of us in the field who question the wisdom of the topics posted on this website. You may not want to believe it but thats the reality.
You're welcome.I will say I have laughed my ass of from time to time reading some of the stuff posted on this website. You know, the who's hitting on who stuff, rumors, etc. I find it rather entertaining, so thank you.
Maybe there is no "endgame", Man. Perhaps the best we can hope for is to provide ATF employees with a place to vent. On the other hand, we have Congressmen and their staffs, national media figures, and other key public figures routinely reading this site. We have a significant number of ATF employees registered and often getting engaged, and this, despite your assumptions, has translated into a loose, covert network of pissed off employees who are going to do whatever they can to try and right this ship.So my question to the moderator/administrator is whats your endgame? What do you hope to accomplish? No disrespect to you but what has changed since you started this website? Well except for a lot of bad press nothing. NOTHING!
That is just plain idiotic and deluded to anyone who is genuinely familiar with the history and character of ATF employee/management communications. The vast majority of employees that have attempted to "engage" the people we hammer every day are now:I know it may be hard to accept but the only way to change things is to engage with the people you hammer mercilessly every day.
- Flipping burgers;
- Investigating sawed-off harpoon violations out of the Pt. Barrow, Alaska Field Outpost;
- Working for other LE agencies;
- Pursuing one or more Whistleblower, EEOC or other complaints, or:
- Barely hanging on by their fingernails and vowing never to speak out again after having their careers and livelihoods threatened, and their asses handed to them on a tin platter.
That is merely your opinion, and one that is backed by little more than innuendo and ass-umption. We'll just have to see how it all plays out.All of your anger and frustration is never going to change things in a positive way. It just breeds more resentment on both sides and further degrades our agency culture. Nothing will get resolved, or improve in this environment.
No, we don't "really think that anyone is going to resign because of this website". Once again, those are just your words, based on nothing we have done or said here.Do you really think Hoover, Chait or Melson are going to resign because of this website? Or take any advice from it? Thats truly "pissing in the wind". It might make you feel good right now but its not making anything better long term.
Lots of assumptions and predictions based on no facts whatsoever. But yes, we do feel better. Thanks for askin'.Hey, you pay for this site out of your own pocket, have at it, hammer away. Feel better? I really don't think you will. Someday you may wake up and regret the unintended consequences of your actions. Hope you all will go out of pocket to help the new guys and gals that get RIF notices when the truth gets twisted and used to dismantle ATF. Thanks for allowing me to post this.
#172
Posted 06 March 2011 - 08:21 AM
#173
Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:39 AM
#174
Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:14 AM
#175
Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:58 PM
#176
Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:21 PM
#177
Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:19 PM
#178
Posted 05 March 2011 - 10:09 PM
#179
Posted 05 March 2011 - 09:45 PM
#180 Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
Posted 05 March 2011 - 08:57 PM
That reminded me of a classic line from the quintessential Viet Nam war movie, "Platoon":The only thing that can destroy ATF is ATF.
"The only thing that can kill Barnes...is Barnes".
-Rhah (Francsico Quinn)
Attached Files
#181 Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
Posted 05 March 2011 - 08:28 PM
I for one am already growing weary of your pompous pronouncements about what we all ought to be doing, how we ought to be doing it, and that your former bad manager is behind the whole thing (that last one actually made me smile, I'll admit). You're certainly welcomed to your opinions, but posting on this site is a courtesy privilege, not a "right", and calling the people posting here "liars" and foisting a huge page-full of marginally relevant emails on us is really pushing your luck. You have repeatedly made, with occasional coherence, what appear to be your primary points...namely, that we are "feeding our enemies", that "this is not the forum", that "this should be an ATF only site", blah, blah, blah. OK...got it.
But surely even you can understand that this site is not going to change its format or subject matter based on your (in my assessment, sophomoric) opinions. Therefore, repeatedly asking us to do so is the epitome of pissing in the wind. Moreover, it's not very interesting nor consistent with what this site is about. So, as I said, you've spoken your piece and we understand where you are coming from. Fair enough. But since we own and operate his site out of pocket with zero contributions from you or anyone else, we get to decide what we want to allow to be posted. So, if you have anything relevant (and hopefully, entertaining) to contribute, by all means. However, if you just want to continue bashing what we're trying to accomplish here (i.e., holding ATF's management accountable for its many sins), then go away.
And the next time you call us all liars, I will immediately facilitate your permanent departure, I assure you.
Nothing's stopping you from starting your own message board or blog to counter the so-called "half truths and lies" that you are so lathered-up about, right? I just checked, and the domain, "www.DontCleanUpATF.org" is available. If you play your cards right, you can probably score a corner office, a G-sled and fat budget to fund your efforts. We'd welcome the competition, and you'd probably have at least the same odds of "saving" ATF as we have of "destroying" it.
#182
Posted 05 March 2011 - 07:52 PM
#183
Posted 05 March 2011 - 07:19 PM
This isn't the first troubled agency I have worked for. Past experieince says corruption will never fix itself. It must be exposed and pressure brought from the outside.
#184
Posted 05 March 2011 - 01:49 PM
Webmaster Comment: To view the long and rambling series of emails that John Boy posted, click here.
#185 Guest_Jumper_*
Posted 05 March 2011 - 12:22 PM
The behavior of the persons on this site is not hurting street agents, corrupt managment is hurting street agents. This site would never have existed if your beloved management team listened to agents. This site is the ONLY voice ATF agents have. What facts are twisted? State a specific example. Don't you dare talk to anyone about "proper channels". Proper channels are ignored by ATF management. The internal grievance process is a farse. The Ombudsman is a snitch for Chief Counsel. The EEO process might as well be ablolished. You claim to be a veteran and you say that the onl real mistake was losing the element of surprise and then lying about it? I would suggest that you never, ever make that statement in the presence of the agents that were at Mt. Carmel that day. You know the facts? Koresh executing the mail carrier? You are from another planet. You clearly don't understand the law. It IS NOT legal to use legal means to purchase firearms for intended transfer in mass quantities to known criminals. You clearl are not an ATF agent or you were sick that day at Firearms Trafficking 101 at the academy. No lies here John Boy. And if I am able to determine who you are I will be calling you, count on it. Now you just sit back at let the 'malcontents' call for justice because we are going to get this place fixed and purged of criminals whether you like it or like how we do it or not.
Gentlemen,
Please stop. While I am sure some of you have legitimate issues with ATF management, your current behavior is seriously hurting the street agents in ATF. Your venting and twisting of facts, by current, retired and probably never was agents is going to destroy this agency and hurt the very people you claim to be trying to help. There are people out there who are using this bull as ammunition against all of ATF. I believe we have a lot of issues in ATF, but I have worked with the FBI and DEA. The only difference is we seem to be much better at eating our own. Some of the people using your stories wouldn't care if we cured cancer. They want us gone. It doesn't matter that in reality we do very little with FFLs or citizens. 99% of our investigations involve convicted felons and/or violent drug dealers. You are hurting the street agents. I have been to war with ATF management before, but I did it through the proper channels. I sometimes wonder if some of these posting are even coming from people ever associated with ATF. The only real comparison with Phoenix and Waco is again, we aren't getting in front of the camera and explaining ourselves. I will never forget Janet Reno taking responsibility. The only real mistake at Waco was lying about losing the element of surprise. Once we lied about that, no one believe anything we said. It's funny the media never reported how they were successfully sued by ATF agents for their conduct that day. A cameraman told a rural mail carrier that ATF and the National Guard was coming and there was going to be a be shoot out. Sadly, the rural mail carrier was the #2 of the Branch Davidians.(Koresh later executed him) Don't compare this to Waco when you don't know the facts. We need a man to get in front of the camera and explain our actions in Phoenix. For those of you who know the law, it isn't a crime for someone to go buy a gun if they are legally allowed. It isn't until you can prove the person purchasing the gun is making a straw purchase. Most of you can figure out who I am. Feel free to call me and I will be happy to speak with you. You are feeding lies and half truths to people who want us dissolved.
Please stop. You aren't helping.
#186 Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
Posted 05 March 2011 - 12:02 PM
- No one cares whether you are "suspect" or not.
- As is clearly stated in the Forums registration rules, user email addresses are visible only to the Webmaster and a couple of trusted Moderators (now that "ain't rocket science"!).
- "Our enemies" don't seem to be the same as your enemies. We don't consider the public or taxpayers as "the enemy".
- It would obviously be impossible to "reserve this entire website for only real ATF employees" without enabling management infiltration and reprisal activities (genius).
- We believe that the general public is a lot smarter than you give them credit for.
- We will not stop so please stop asking (and of course, we have the power to make that happen).
If you can't figure out who I am, then I am suspect of you. I can't see your real name. You have my email address for my account. It ain't rocket science. You are feeding our enemies. If your goal is to help the street agents, then I would ask you to keep this entire site reserved for only real ATF employees. Again, you are hurting the street agents. The general public doesn't see a difference between ATF agents and ATF management.
Please stop!
John Boy
#187 Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:43 AM
"Half truths"? My ass. It is not "half true" that one of my closest friends, an undercover Special Agent with more than 20 years of putting it on the line, who went right back to work after being shot at point-blank range through the friggin' lungs before he collected his first ATF paycheck, and who just about lost his family due to the extreme demands of the job, had his house torched, with his family inside, while ATF management deliberately looked the other way and even interfered with the investigation, just because he had refused to bow down and accept numerous previous acts of illegal retaliation and reprisal.
It’s not a “half truth” that an veteran Special Agent who has a stack of legitimate complaints pending, has been sitting in an office doing basically nothing for well over year, and remains in precisely that same scenario long after Acting Director Ken Melson, upon being confronted about it on national television, told the media and the public, “Not on my watch”. They are liars, John-Dude. L-I-A-R-S.
It’s not a half truth that a senior Field Office manager, when deposed under oath regarding the above-mentioned complaints, responded with “I don’t know”, “I don’t recall.”, “I’m not sure”, and “I can’t remember” more than one hundred and fifty times in a single questioning, and all with regard to matters that are under the direct control, authority and responsibility of his job position.
Is it a “half truth” that a senior ATF manager and golden boy was arrested for engaging in public sex acts and damaging private property while on duty, but is not only still employed and listed on the Bureau’s public website as a DIO?
Is it “half truth” that there have been widespread credible corruption and malfeasance allegations involving a substantial number of top ATF managers over the last 10 years, or that the ATF rate of formal employee complaints is something like 300% greater in relative terms than say, the FBI?
It's not a "half truth" that ATF's management culture is profoundly corrupt, self-serving, dishonest, retaliatory, improperly reactive, cost-ineffective and at times, abjectly immoral. It's not a "half truth" that ATF managers and "legal" counsel have knowingly, substantially and maliciously lied under oath for the expressed purpose of unfairly smearing and destroying the careers of decent people who (unlike you), had the courage to speak out against some of the most ridiculous nonsense ever perpetrated by an American federal law enforcement agency.
It is not a "half truth" that there is, and has long been an overarching atmosphere of angst, fear, uncertainty, intimidation and CYA-at-all-costs in the Bureau.
Thank you for your rambling History Channel regurge of the Waco events. The thing is, however, that Waco was but one of many seminal events that must be judged within a much larger context, and your use of it as some sort of justification for stifling the expression of opinions in this venue is both emotionally and intellectually lame. For one thing, as you mentioned, the Bureau overtly lied about losing the element of surprise. Why? Because top management (wrongly) made a calculated decision that they could pull it off just to shield themselves from deserved criticism. That still pretty much sums up the management culture in ATF.
And why should anyone (in the public or Congress) believe anything ATF says after the agency's top management decides to mislead the Congress and the public for regarding such a highly-visible and controversial matter? You cite that egregious misrepresentation so casually, as if it was a mere “typo”. But it wasn't. Lying, obfuscating, distorting the truth and throwing good (non-management) people under the bus is a standard operating practice within ATF’s management culture at all levels. It's also one of the primary reasons that this website exists. Feckless, mamby-pamby apologists like you will not prevent our membership from speaking their minds for the first time.
ATF "curing cancer"? What are you smoking, Dude? Even we knuckle-draggers understand metaphors and analogies, but the overall weakness of your arguments is well illustrated by that contrived statement. The simple facts regarding the Phoenix Field Division/Gunrunner fiasco are that several managers, who have long been exposed as viciously arrogant and incompetent, and who were already embroiled in serious and credible allegations of misconduct, have now been “outed” as the key players in a reckless operation that no one in the public or Congress is going to support or defend. Spare us the condescending legal analysis, F. Lee Bailey…no one that I know of is challenging the technical “legality” of what occurred. It’s the way it was handled, including the basic wisdom of it, along with the typically arrogant, “go work for corrections if you don’t like it”, heavy-handed lunacy of the managers involved that are legitimately at issue (here. at least).
There are absolutely people posting on this site who are not associated with ATF. So what? No one involved with this project ever claimed otherwise, so there's no reason to "wonder" about it, Captain Obvious. It’s a perfectly acceptable price to pay for maintaining the protection of anonymity (if the user so desires) that is a core feature of this venue. And besides, every genuine 1811 or other ATF employee reading this stuff can usually figure out who’s an insider and who isn’t, Genius.
Your assertion that the discussions taking place on this site will provide ammunition that could result in the disbanding of ATF is ludicrous at face value. Most of the people posting to this site have given substantial portions of their life, love and in some cases, blood for ATF. They don’t want to see it absorbed by another agency. But at the same time, many would probably prefer such an outcome rather than to continue eating the ongoing overdose of mean-spirited, sanctimonious, self-serving tripe that ATF management serves up as the soup du jour. In any case, if a random bunch of mostly anonymous folks spouting off on a website can bring down a major federal agency, that agency's days were already numbered.
I think I speak for most users of this website when I say that your closing statement, “You aren’t helping”, is a classic case of deluded projection.
All of that said, I'm glad you're here and posting. We need this sort of reality check from time-to-time, however misguided. Oh, and don't call us "Gentlemen".
Gentlemen,
Please stop. While I am sure some of you have legitimate issues with ATF management, your current behavior is seriously hurting the street agents in ATF. Your venting and twisting of facts, by current, retired and probably never was agents is going to destroy this agency and hurt the very people you claim to be trying to help. There are people out there who are using this bull as ammunition against all of ATF. I believe we have a lot of issues in ATF, but I have worked with the FBI and DEA. The only difference is we seem to be much better at eating our own. Some of the people using your stories wouldn't care if we cured cancer. They want us gone. It doesn't matter that in reality we do very little with FFLs or citizens. 99% of our investigations involve convicted felons and/or violent drug dealers. You are hurting the street agents. I have been to war with ATF management before, but I did it through the proper channels. I sometimes wonder if some of these posting are even coming from people ever associated with ATF. The only real comparison with Phoenix and Waco is again, we aren't getting in front of the camera and explaining ourselves. I will never forget Janet Reno taking responsibility. The only real mistake at Waco was lying about losing the element of surprise. Once we lied about that, no one believe anything we said. It's funny the media never reported how they were successfully sued by ATF agents for their conduct that day. A cameraman told a rural mail carrier that ATF and the National Guard was coming and there was going to be a be shoot out. Sadly, the rural mail carrier was the #2 of the Branch Davidians.(Koresh later executed him) Don't compare this to Waco when you don't know the facts. We need a man to get in front of the camera and explain our actions in Phoenix. For those of you who know the law, it isn't a crime for someone to go buy a gun if they are legally allowed. It isn't until you can prove the person purchasing the gun is making a straw purchase. Most of you can figure out who I am. Feel free to call me and I will be happy to speak with you. You are feeding lies and half truths to people who want us dissolved.
Please stop. You aren't helping.
#188
Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:25 AM
#189
Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:13 AM
#190
Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:09 AM
#191
Posted 05 March 2011 - 10:53 AM
#192 Guest_CUATF Webmaster_*
Posted 05 March 2011 - 10:41 AM
Explain why you think it's OK that half of our law enforcement "leadership" are attorneys? They have never been to the ATF academy! Much like our AD of PGA who gives briefings to U.S. Senators; he was our AD of Intel throughout this entire breakdown. We are ATF; we have enemies and always will. We are supposed to be apolitical, so in theory, neither side of the 2nd amendment can do us harm unless we misuse the citizens' trust. Just exactly what "half truths" are you talking about? Unlike you, my real name is on here and I can be reached through the ATF email.
Gentlemen,
Please stop. While I am sure some of you have legitimate issues with ATF management, your current behavior is seriously hurting the street agents in ATF. Your venting and twisting of facts, by current, retired and probably never was agents is going to destroy this agency and hurt the very people you claim to be trying to help. There are people out there who are using this bull as ammunition against all of ATF. I believe we have a lot of issues in ATF, but I have worked with the FBI and DEA. The only difference is we seem to be much better at eating our own. Some of the people using your stories wouldn't care if we cured cancer. They want us gone. It doesn't matter that in reality we do very little with FFLs or citizens. 99% of our investigations involve convicted felons and/or violent drug dealers. You are hurting the street agents. I have been to war with ATF management before, but I did it through the proper channels. I sometimes wonder if some of these posting are even coming from people ever associated with ATF. The only real comparison with Phoenix and Waco is again, we aren't getting in front of the camera and explaining ourselves. I will never forget Janet Reno taking responsibility. The only real mistake at Waco was lying about losing the element of surprise. Once we lied about that, no one believe anything we said. It's funny the media never reported how they were successfully sued by ATF agents for their conduct that day. A cameraman told a rural mail carrier that ATF and the National Guard was coming and there was going to be a be shoot out. Sadly, the rural mail carrier was the #2 of the Branch Davidians.(Koresh later executed him) Don't compare this to Waco when you don't know the facts. We need a man to get in front of the camera and explain our actions in Phoenix. For those of you who know the law, it isn't a crime for someone to go buy a gun if they are legally allowed. It isn't until you can prove the person purchasing the gun is making a straw purchase. Most of you can figure out who I am. Feel free to call me and I will be happy to speak with you. You are feeding lies and half truths to people who want us dissolved.
Please stop. You aren't helping.
#193
Posted 05 March 2011 - 09:18 AM
#194
Posted 04 March 2011 - 07:40 PM
#195
Posted 03 March 2011 - 11:56 AM
#196
Posted 03 March 2011 - 10:58 AM
Cavanaugh was always impressed with himself.Will someone PLEASE tell Jim Cavanaugh to SHUT his pie hole related to ATF. He is NOT an Agent. He is NOT our spokesperson. And he should NOT be allowed to run around the country and further our corrupt and unethical leadership, even though thats what he did when he WAS an ATF Agent. Stop making excuses Jim, thats why we are in this boat. Nobody cares what your opinion (or should we say Mr. Melson and Traver and Hoovers opinion is), especially when it comes out of your mouth like a ventriloquist DUMMY. STOP SPECULATING for the media. Let Mr. Melson et al. speak for themselves, they are big boys. AND GET A LIFE.
#197
Posted 03 March 2011 - 08:34 AM
#198
Posted 27 February 2011 - 10:43 AM
I remember back when Bill Clinton got all wrapped up in "it depends on what the definition of is, is." The DEA came out with a memo to its agents ordering them not to engage in this lawyer double talk.
Flash forward to ATF, and we have a regime that engages in lawyer double-talk, lawyer-client privilege, plausible deniability and all sorts of sneaky, underhanded tactics that should be despised by professionals.
The thing is, people in the upper ranks of ATF have nothing to fear. If ATF were to disappear overnight, Mr. Melson would either find himself back at Main DoJ, or he would be at Georgetown University teaching a law school class on forensic evidence and laboratories, and making $300,000 a year. Chait, Hoover, Riehl and the rest of them would either worm themselves into another SES slot at another agency or would get a contractor position making $250,000 a year. Only difference is that they would get to stay domestic and not have to go to Iraq like Tommy Stanky.
Meanwhile, the rank and file would all be caught running around trying to find jobs in an economy with 10% unemployment.
The bosses have nothing to lose. We have everything to lose.
#199
Posted 27 February 2011 - 10:14 AM
#200
Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:43 AM
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