290 replies to this topic

[John Boy]

SFC_Swede,
First, if you are currently serving in the US Military, let me say Thank You for your service. It is because of our US Service members we are free.
Next, I fully support the second amendment. I have hunted and fished my entire life. I have numerous firearms. The only difference between me and the guy who has 100 guns is that he has the money to buy 100 guns. I have never taken guns from a citizen. My entire career I have worked to arrest and convict violent criminals. I wish I could go into detail and explain how many times I have worked with a citizen that did something stupid. I did the right thing, but it could easily be used against me by a defense attorney in a prosecution of a real criminal with a gun. If you came out and rode with ATF, you would quickly learn that 99.9% of everything ATF does everyday you agree is what you want us doing. Unfortunately, we are also used by both side of the political spectrum to bolster their agendas. I know there really are those out there how want to take away our guns, but their are also those who use us as a anvil to get more money for their organization. "ATF is coming for your guns, so send us more money to protect your gun rights". I remember getting into an argument years ago with a State Trooper. I was on vacation and the state trooper told me that congress had passed a law limiting magazine capacity. I told him he was crazy. We had too many laws on the books right now and that was just silly. Guess what, I was wrong. No one from congress ever consults ATF on the gun laws. They all do what benefits them to get reelected. Every time we target an area to reduce violent crime by targeting convicted felons with gun, we quickly show a reduction in violent crime.
So before we go any further, lets get one simple fact straight. Everyday, ATF agents are out there fighting violent crime. Regardless of our issues with our upper management, we are out there doing our job. Not targeting stupid regulations and FFLs, but locking up convicted felons with guns and violent gangs dealing drugs. 99.99% of everything we do, no one has a problem with. I don't know the details of every case in ATF. I do know that all the agents I know are doing the job you want us to do. At the end of the day, look at the size of ATF and then look at the number of prosecutions we do. Then take a look at the FBI, their size and their prosecutions. You will be truly shocked.

[SFC_Swede]

John Boy, I've gotten word of who you are and Jumper is right. We disagree on this website but your service at Waco and elsewhere make you instantly credible so I will respect your views.

On the topic of enemies, ATF will always have its enemies. But the stronger enemy has emerged from within and as you know, the only way to chase the cockroaches out is shine a light on them. When your peers exposed themselves to speak out on Waco didn't you remain concealed and hidden giving a statement in shadows? John Dodson didn't. Vince Cefalu hasn't. Frank D'Alesio won't. Hiram Andres couldn't. Some of those who ATF attempted to destroy did what management wanted them to. Roll over, keep quiet, retire or wait for time to pass so they can return to good graces and have a new cushy job. Others have not. I'll come out an be honest, if not embarrassed. I'm not about to. I can't stand the heat. I am one of the ones silent in the shadows.

I understand you work with Dobyns on NIBIN (thank you Webmaster for taking up for my friends Jay and Vince). I think you should tell him to keep quiet and solve his problem "in house". I challenge you to have that conversation with him. Do you have any idea what ATF did to him? Even the slightest? The details of those events that most of ATF is aware of are those that have been spun out of HQ (take the credibility of the HQ sources for whatever you feel they are worth). The Dobyns debacle is one the great personal tragedies ever at ATF. No comparison to Ariel Rios, Waco or Brian Terry's murder but none-the-less a black eye on ATF for allowing what has happened to him. Very discouraging to anyone here who ever laid it on the line and of all people you know that.

Before I signed on to read today's banter I checked this site and found this posting. Read the comments and give Jay a call. http://blog.jaydobyn...?p=325#comments You complain about this website spinning inaccurate information. Pick up the phone and tell him you are defending the people that have permitted and continue for this to happen.

What is to be accomplished at CUATF? This is not my platform but change, hopefully. Accountability. That might be naive, maybe improbable, likely impossible. Do you want to sit back after what you have been through and cross your fingers that things will get better? ATF has declined since Waco. That is not good enough for a lot of people who view this agency as more than a regular paycheck. Is there anyone at ATF that you feel is going to step up and right the wrongs? I want to find the hope that you have somehow found. John Boy consider this. ATF has 5000 employees, maybe 2500 agents. Of those only a very small portion will stand up to the machine for good "survival instinct" reasons. So if this site is as you claim not accomplishing anything how do you account for over 150,000 viewings and thousands of postings? Your topic alone has almost 1,000 viewings since it was created 24 hours ago.

Lots of people are watching and most are not ATF personnel and the numbers confirm that. Are some ATF's enemies? Without a doubt. But are some oversight agencies, government watchdogs, independent bloggers, members of Congress and the Senate, the Attorney General's office, the White House, the State Department, Foreign governments, civilians. You bet they are. This site is causing change, they are just not doing it the way you want them to.

Again, give us an idea. You passed on the request to come to HQ.

Sir, I wouldn’t call those "enemies" as you listed as much as checks and balances. Your real enemies are the criminals who willfully break the existing laws. I for one want an ATF to keep criminal guns off the streets, and to enforce the rule of law. And I am sure the majority of those listed (at least I hope so) feel the same. Just because we may be strong 2nd Amendment proponent’s doesn’t mean we are naive on the threat of terrorism, and narco thugs operating within the border and want the agency killed. The issue with many of us is when the Agency is used for political purposes because the politicians know that perusing an antigun agenda on law abiding American's is a non winner for them at the ballot box. Instead of Congress and the Executive branch having the courage of their conviction to pass a law as laid out in the Constitution, they circumvent the system utilizing the bureaucracy. Case in point in an email I received from The National Association for Gun Rights yesterday: "With the tacit approval of the Obama Administration, the ATF hopes to use bureaucratic rule changes to ban the importation and sale of certain shotguns based on their twisted view of the “sporting purposes” clause in the 1968 Gun Control Act." I could go into the details, but you’re probably more familiar with the study than I am, but as I read it, my tactical shotguns are about to go the way of the Dodo. Its things like this that pit ordinary, law abiding, patriotic American’s against the ATF as an agency. Instead of enforcing law, its circumventing the legislative process, creating an edict against law abiding citizens and sticking good agents in the middle. If there is an illegal sale...I got that, and please throw the book at those involved, but good lord man....most of us are just trying to protect our homes and fmailies, just as I am sure you do.
I could be soup sandwich, and willing to listen to the others comments...but it’s my $.02.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

[ProConfesso]

Further. Doc said, "Chief counsel should be disbanded with those attys who feel false and misleading arguments are ethical. Creating documents. Dragging out settlements they KNOW they are going to pay, just for punitive purposes" Some of the atty's in this Bureau (past & present) really ought to be ashamed of themselves. I really don't know how else to put it. Nevermind dragging out "settlements that are going to pay." What about realizing the TRUTH. Their is only one truth. Defending lying managers is unethical anyway you slice it. Your oath to the LAW takes precedent over your false alligience to your employer's management at the expense of your bread & butter street agents. When will one mgr or atty speak out about their practices?

[ProConfesso]

Doc said, Cut every SES who is NON essential to the mission. Cut every field division to one ASAC, One ops officer and put these agents back in the field where they can produce.

It wasn't too long ago that each FD had 1 ASAC & 1 Ops Officer. No DTA, no NIBIN no blah blah blah etc. Oh, and the SAC did any "PIO" work that was needed. Eliminate the PIO sinecure. At least, make them responsible to supervise all groups when the RAC is off. One FD PIO hasn't made a case in 2 decades (and never made one on his own anyway. The position is a one way propaganda stream to promote the SAC for his own self aggrandizement anyway. The PIO doesn't answer any inquiries from the press that aren't puff pieces. Too many ops officers (many off the books in the manner that they are assigned to read ROI's and such (something the ASAC should be doing - and he (the ASAC) should be on the streets supervising cases like in other Bureau's as well.
Why does one FD have a contracted (non-agent)NIBIN coordinator unlike all other FD's? Why does a FD have former S?A's hired as "contractors" to do seized property - like that is a legit full or p/t gig.
No wonder TRAC reports Gun prosecutions are down. If it weren't for adoption cases (922g) where would we really be?
Most SAC's in large cities are laughed at by major PD's and are hardly taken seriously as players in the LE community.

[Doc Holiday]

Too many Chiefs, not enough Idians. Cut every SES who is NON essential to the mission. Cut every field division to one ASAC, One ops officer and put these agents back in the field where they can produce. We are so top heavy we should tip over. We have so many tiers within this small agency that nobody can be held accountable. Not my words, former Asst. Director Carson Carroll under oath I believe.As many have said, explosives gone why the dogs. Why are Agents assigned to the academy when there are no classes scheduled for a long time? Too many callouts for SRT. Streamline them and only use when they are needed. FIC DTA, collateral duties. They always were. Turn property back over to the groups and cut several millions.Too many focus groups and not enough gun and badge carriers hittin the brinks. Finally, stop the media chasing and allowing that to control the outcome of our missions.Dont let the thoughtof media drive the investigation. And stop with the all is well when you know its not, Next time you want a serious plan for an initiative, come to the troops. We know what to do and how to do it. Stinnett, dont know cases, never been trained as a investigator. Ford hasnt been in the field for even half of his career and has short term experience, McDermond is a Secret Service guy who cannot give a U S Senator a comprehensive brief.Martin has sat silent watching and knowing all of these practice where being used and was confident he could run the Intell shop without ANY Intell from Fast and Furious. The list goes on and on. Lest we leave the Gestapo of bad management, Internal affairs. Their cases fall short when bosses are implicated. They initiate on agent who have challenged the realm. Whitewash and cover-up. Chief counsel should be disbanded with those attys who feel false and misleading arguments are ethical. Creating documents. Dragging out settlements they KNOW they are going to pay, just for punitive purposes.

[Veritas]

Here is a few ways to save $$$. 1: Get rid of SATO or Carson-Wagonlit or whatever the travel service is. Whats the fee 30 bucks every time you travel? And additional fees if you have to change your travel plans. What a scam. Agents could make their own travel plans better, cheaper and more efficently and save millions for US taxpayers. 2: Get rid of the stupid assessment center. What a joke and what a waste of money. Give a standard test and then do a panel interview if you make the BQL. The way it is right now SOME agents who belong to certain associations get the AC cheat sheet or get special training by the test makers to help them score better. ATF spent MILLIONS on this flawed selection process. Another knee jerk reaction to a lawsuit and another abject failure. We are so screwed up because of the knuckleheads we promote. I have known many great agents who did not pass the test or scored low. They dont move up the knucklehead does and maybe thats why we are allowing guns to walk into mexico.

[Winston Smith]

Guys, Can we please limit this discussion to just ways to improve our agency's use of budget $ such as restructing programs, eliminating wasteful or ineffective programs and poor use/placement of personnel?

[Cool Hand]

1desertrat: I agree that there is much to laugh about right now, but that last thing I want is to get in a war of words with someone who is also trying to reform the agency. Rat, we are on the same team. I did not mean to suggest that we are currently elite and super effective or that we should re-label or re-brand through "smoke and mirrors"...I meant we should make a full court press effort to rebuild organizational pride and maximize our existing (if limited) resources. I thought this particular posting was supposed to be about budget recommendations. At the risk of making you laugh some more, I think building espirit d'corps will ultimately help the total organization in all categories. Personally, I would like to hear other ideas...or are we so broken that that there is no point in speaking up anymore?

[Thor God of Thunder]

I could not agree any stronger. It is the same thing with any special duty you put in for or transfers you want. They will lie when you ask them if they made or received any calls on the issue.

It is unfortunate but true. I don't know why they even bother putting out vacancy announcements.

[1desertrat]

You know, its funny. I have made references to "elite and super effective" to executives in the past and all it got me was "black listed". I'm not giving up. All of the great warrior organizations (military, police and intelligence) are small and often have crappy budgets. We can kick ass, bureau wide, if we want (I say that with the respect to those who already kick ass individually). It's an attitude. Come on, dammit, give us old dogs a reason to stick around past retirement eligibility. I double dog dare you.

"elite and super effective"....(LOL)...I almost fell on the floor laughing at this one!!

[Zorro]

I can't believe I am suggesting this, but how about eliminating PCS moves in lieu of disciplinary action or criminal charges? Someone help me out on the scenario - maybe 2yrs ago +/-.... SES got in trouble - as punishment got double promoted and PCS which set about a chain of events that brought about FIVE PCS moves. I don't remember the details - back before the board went high tech. Crenshaw? McLemore? Any other examples?

[Cool Hand]

You know, its funny. I have made references to "elite and super effective" to executives in the past and all it got me was "black listed". I'm not giving up. All of the great warrior organizations (military, police and intelligence) are small and often have crappy budgets. We can kick ass, bureau wide, if we want (I say that with the respect to those who already kick ass individually). It's an attitude. Come on, dammit, give us old dogs a reason to stick around past retirement eligibility. I double dog dare you.

[Cowboy Dan]

"Stop fixating on the position that we are small and weak and start concentrating on the position that we are elite and super effective" Amen! I worked for several years as a correctional officer in a secured facility. There were three towers inside the compound, staffed 24/7/365. In some facilities, tower duty was an assignment for marginal officers, warm bodies to keep the staffing levels up to standard. At other facilities, tower duty was prized, viewed as an assignment for the best and brightest. Tower officers were seen as the last line of defense against assaults from the outside or attempts to escape from the inside, while providing eyes on the entire facility and thus, intel for the safe and secure operation of the facility. Sort of like the optimistic twin's "There's got to be a pony in here somewhere!"

[GoodWorker]

I disagree with waiting a year. With the posts from the last week or so, I'd say things may not be changing that much, and if they do, it will be very very slow.

It's my opinion, to get an attorney now, who will represent all who need them. If you wait a year, many decisions about your pending cases could become resolved with your punishment being overwhelmingly not fair.
And this decision to wait a year or so, could be one that will effect your whole family for the rest of your/our lives!

I say "head em off at the pass", as opposed to waiting a year.
We may or may not get a republican president, but who knows what THEY will do. Gun laws are very "touchy" for most politicians, and they may not want to get involved. If there are big changes in favor of Agents, caused by the Congressional Hearings, you can always back off of your class action suit.

If you will remember the FLSA class action law suit, it cost only 25.00 to join it. If someone can get an attorney to represent us, I'm sure they will be working on a contigency of winning the case. I say its a very "affordable" cost, and that as Agents, we CANNOT "afford" to wait for these people to destroy our agency and our lives.

Some of the Agents, may only be up to their knees with intimidation and trouble, but I'll bet more agents are up to their EARS with bullying, indimidation, unfair practices,trouble, possibility of being fired, etc...and are really in need of our help. Because we live in different states, getting an attorney for the suit would be the greatest way to show what they did to this agency and to show what they did to US!!! How they have and will ruin lives. Plus, having an attorney to talk to you, thats on your side, will take so much stress off of a person allowing him or her to function somewhat normally. They might be able to relax and enjoy their family if they know someone is fighting for them, and they are getting support from Agents.

I think EVERYONE who has any kind of pending Internal Affairs investigation going on, should get on board with this idea. Or if any of you have been punished unfairly by ATF, you might be interested in joining the suit. If any of you were ever street cops, that was what brotherhood is. They had the FOP to fight for them, and they all supported each other. Some of you have loads of bricks you are carrying,and we as brother and sister agents, should be helping you carry that load. I dont know about the rest of you, but its damn hard to walk into my house everyday, and look at my family, knowing all of this bullshit is happening to me as well as many MANY others. I'm exhausted from it! Arent you?

If we get an attorney now, they can at the very least, give us important advice on what he or she will be needing to file a class action suit. What kind of evidence, documents, "tapings" we need to start collecting for the attorneys and our class action. Guys and Gals, there's no better time than doing this RIGHT NOW! I'll even bet a nickel, that Senator Grassley would also encourage us to do it. The things we find out, may help his case, who knows! I'm sure these ATF leaders in D.C. probably know who some of us are, and just cant wait to retaliate, but if we have representation, they have to leave us alone. I dont see any down side to this.

Would any of you be willing to get this started? It would probably be best to hire an attorney that's in the D.C. area, dont you think? The black agents in ATF had the balls to do it because of the treatment they were getting from the same people we have been talking about! We need someone to be the lead person on this, and talk to some attorneys to see if any of them would be interested. If we were a big police department, and our "leaders" in the police department were retaliating, intimidating, bullying, lieing, the FOP would step in and make some noise, and usually win. What do you all think? Lets find an attorney interested? Who will take the lead on that, if everyone wants to do it. I really dont see any other choices to make. ATF agents class action lawsuit against ATF, plus the many congressional inquiries going on against ATF! If you can give me a reason not to do this, Id be very interested in hearing it. Jaime3, you thankfully brought the idea up. Did you have an attorney in mind?

Lastly, think about this. If nothing happens to the "chosen ones in question", after the hearings, and we file a class action suit after the fact. We will look like a bunch of sour grape, disgruntled employees going after these poor guys just trying to do their jobs. Its my opinion we should do it NOW! We have all of this support NOW. We may not have all that support in a year, or longer, probably much longer! To the media and the public, all they are seeing is the Fast and Furious deal. They arent see the other crap thats happening to us individually. This needs to happen now, and piggy back it on the congressional hearings. So the public will know, ATF is not only screwed up when it came to fast and furious, they also screwed up at how they treat their agents. Opinions please.

In an ideal world your suggestion would work but #1, most agents have the stance that if they are not messing with me, why should I bother spending any money or telling people what I know? #2 finding a law firm that will take the case on a contingency basis is not easy. #3 the department of justice and ATF will spend more time, effort, and money in trying to conceal wrong doing than they will trying to fix the problem. The DOJ attorneys are already paid for by the tax payers who are getting fleeced. If you want to start this venture, you really have to have a strong team of class members and attorneys who will follow through on this for years. This is just one guys lessons learned from going 9 rounds with the government.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

I hope none of these recommendations will be taken personally. For starters, I agree that we should eliminate as many non-case productive positions as possible (i.e. I sincerely doubt that we are going to get any larger as an organization for the time being). For example, I do not know why we need a DOO let alone several SOOs. Frankly, I don't think these positions exist in other Federal law enforcement agencies. We can probably trim down the Intel function by simply assigning the few analysts we have directly to the groups. I think a Field Intelligence Group is a valuable resource, but it is a luxury we cannot afford at this juncture--at the end of the day, every agent and inspector is an intelligence officer. To reiterate from someone else's post, if your position does not respond to callouts or major incidents, no take home car should be assigned to you (as a side bar, I think new agents should have to earn their 13s again with a minimum of three years as a GS-12 and perhaps a reasonable justification of their performance...that is...if we ever hire more agents).
At the risk of straying from budget and spilling into leadership, I think the following recommendations will ultimately help our pocket book:
-Clarify the mission within our current body of laws with strong commanders intent and follow through
-Motivate and inspire the rank and file from the top on down
-Build trust and confidence with the field--this will save time and money in unnecessary grievances
-Reinstitute the time honored ATF tradition of creativity and resourcefulness
-Reassign as many agents to case productive positions as humanly possible
-Stop fixating on the position that we are small and weak and start concentrating on the position that we are elite and super effective

You have some very good ideas.

However, the reason the Intelligence Group was created/expanded was due to the recommendations of the Treasury Report on Waco. IF, the Intelligence Groups were staffed with competent supervisors, intelligence research specialists and support staff AND they were used at the beginning, middle and end of the case, then they would be worth keeping in the budget. Unfortunately, I have seen situations where SACs have placed probationary/marginal special agents/supervisors in the Intelligence Groups. Most of these individuals have made only one or two cases (in some case NONE), and have no idea what is really needed to support the working agents in the field. Also, some Intelligence Research Specialists are trained/paid to do effective work, BUT, they are either allowed to perform only clerical work, or they are not contacted until the case is finished and they are asked to step in at the last minute to produce a chart for court.

If ATF would utilize the Intelligence staff they have -- as the U.S. Military uses their Intelligence staff, it would free up Special Agents to concentrate their efforts on cases. Creativity and resourcefulness would flourish, if teamwork was encouraged to accomplish the mission.

[Cool Hand]

I hope none of these recommendations will be taken personally. For starters, I agree that we should eliminate as many non-case productive positions as possible (i.e. I sincerely doubt that we are going to get any larger as an organization for the time being). For example, I do not know why we need a DOO let alone several SOOs. Frankly, I don't think these positions exist in other Federal law enforcement agencies. We can probably trim down the Intel function by simply assigning the few analysts we have directly to the groups. I think a Field Intelligence Group is a valuable resource, but it is a luxury we cannot afford at this juncture--at the end of the day, every agent and inspector is an intelligence officer. To reiterate from someone else's post, if your position does not respond to callouts or major incidents, no take home car should be assigned to you (as a side bar, I think new agents should have to earn their 13s again with a minimum of three years as a GS-12 and perhaps a reasonable justification of their performance...that is...if we ever hire more agents). At the risk of straying from budget and spilling into leadership, I think the following recommendations will ultimately help our pocket book: -Clarify the mission within our current body of laws with strong commanders intent and follow through -Motivate and inspire the rank and file from the top on down -Build trust and confidence with the field--this will save time and money in unnecessary grievances -Reinstitute the time honored ATF tradition of creativity and resourcefulness -Reassign as many agents to case productive positions as humanly possible -Stop fixating on the position that we are small and weak and start concentrating on the position that we are elite and super effective

[Winston Smith]

Can we all agree to dedicate this discussion to areas of our budget where we can cut unnecessary expenses? Can we please prevent this discussion from being hijacked or dominated by Phoenix problems? I brought this up the other day as possible suggestions: Let's move forward to a less evil topic, such as what areas of our budget can we afford to "trim" some fat from? Do we need a full time SRT that travels extensively? Would we be better served by having Divisional SRT's to cut down on travel expenses? Pro's/Con's. Do we need to have a Canine Program? Is this a duplication of services that other entities can provide cheaper and more efficiently? Pro's/Con's. Should we redesign our Inspection Process to examine all program's for efficiency, effectiveness, staffing needs, and more, instead of the current practice of Inspectors just sighting in on NFORCE deficiencies and findings that are truly irrelevant/insignificant in terms of whether a case was fully investigated or prosecuted? What are some failings of the current Inspection Process? Public Affairs - should the PIO function become an ASAC collateral duty, thus returning a GS-13 agent to the field? Why can't ASAC's absorb this function? Vehicles - why are we still spending enormous amounts on purchasing specialty trucks for our Arson groups? Is this truly necessary? Are there any alternatives such as letting CFI's and CES's use a standard SUV? Does each DTA or F/A instructor need a full size SUV such as a Suburban for a take home? Could each Division have a dedicated vehicle that the DTA or FI uses only on the day of qualifications or enforcement ops? Why not purchase a subcompact for the DTA since he or she is not working active cases, and is typically on SRT travel anyway. Should the DOO and SOO be given subcompacts as commuter cars since they do not respond to call outs or work active cases? Would the fuel cost savings outweigh any potential down side? These are just a few examples. Most of you probably have ideas on what areas can sustain cuts, be restructured or eliminated without missing a beat. "I'm just saying" let's be productive with a healthy discussion. Get cracking or I will make a mandatory Learn ATF course about "Budget Cuts and You," which will be the sequel to "How to *#@& Up the Phoenix Field Division."

[Ike]

Gathering information in violation of the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA) of 1986, is not unusual or unprecedented at ATF. Another example:

On August 25, 2008, ATF issued Ruling 2008-2, allowing Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders to keep the Acquisition/ Disposition "Bound Book" on a computer without prior approval. However, when the FFL goes out of business, the ruling requires a computer (digital) file and file description be provided to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center - in addition to a printout of the "bound A/D book".

This is an official ATF Ruling issued after 1986, thus specifically violates 18 U.S.C. 926(a) as a rule requiring the digital file to be “transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States”. Each of these digital files is a “system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transaction or dispositions” specifically prohibited by 18 U.S.C. 926(a).

"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof..."

Those digital records include the Name and Address of every Buyer and every Seller for each gun, as well as the Manufacturer, Model, Caliber and Serial of each firearm. In fact, each set of digital Out-of-Business records is precisely a system of registration of firearms, firearm owners and firearm transactions specifically prohibited by 18 U.S.C. 926(a).

It is a simple technical task to search each of these for specific names or addresses, or to extract all purchasers of 9mm handguns (or 7.62x39mm), or combine all digital Out-of-Business files into one large registration database.

[Historic Arms LLC]

Shifting gears back to the original post [though the ID theft thing is alarming]. I just checked the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA). It appears that any FFL who were to report that information would be committing a felony, as it is specifically prohibited under the act. Voluntary or not it appears to be illegal under current law. Just sayin'...I think that type of reporting would require legislation. Len

[Zorro]

Tell me I'm wrong!

Wish I could. ID theft is a life wrecker. While most of my cases were "on view", occasionally they were based on reports from out of staters who found out when they applied for a loan or got a credit check for some other reason (no reason to pay someone else's bills). Finding and arresting the culprit did almost nothing to resolve their mess.

Sounds like a good cause for another budget bill rider.

[Ike]

Zorro:

(Don't forget to count your nose - that will make it 22...)

It's my understanding that eTrace provides a full Firearms Trace Summary, the same as is provided to LE in the United States. ATF claims the SSN is redacted, but I've seen no proof. I presume the Spanish version of eTrace produces the same report in Spanish.

The following information is provided in the report:

This report contains no disclaimer that the report identifies only the first purchaser, who may have no connection to the person found in possession of the firearm, nor any indication of presumed innocence of the purchaser nor the selling dealer. This report is provided to Mexican police (see Mexican Police Corruption below) from the bilingual eTrace program provided to Mexico.

* Firearm Information: Manufacturer, Model, Caliber, Serial Number, Type (Pistol, Rifle, etc.), Country of manufacture & Importer.
* Recovery Information: Recovery date, "Time to Crime" (age of firearm), Recovery address.
* Purchaser Information: (First purchaser only). Purchase Date, Full Name and Full Address, Date of Birth, Place of Birth, Race, Sex, Social Security Number, Drivers License Number, Height, Weight.
* Dealer Information: FFL Number, Name and Full Address, Phone Number, Ship Date (Date of Receipt).
* Summary of Results: Narrative by ATF of the trace results.
* Additional Dealer Information: Full transfer path from Importer or Manufacturer, to Distributor, to Dealer. Includes Full Name and Full Address of each, Point of Contact Name, Dealer Notes, Associated Traces (All other traces connected to dealer), Phone Number, Fax Number, FFL Number, Invoice Number (if any), Date of Last ATF Inspection
* Additional Individual Information: All information from 'Purchaser' above, plus: Criminal History, AKA (Alias) Name, AKA Date of Birth, Associated Traces (All other traces or multiple gun purchases for that last name and Date of Birth)
* Recovery Location: All the information in 'Recovery' above, plus Type of Recovery (On Person, etc), detail Vehicle Information (including license number), all other traces for that Street Name, City and State.

Just look at a Firearms Trace Summary and you'll know what I'm talking about. A real example is available here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETrace

Now, just to make it more personal and less abstract. Zorro, let's say you bought two AR-15 rifles 20 years ago (one for you and one for your wife). Two years later, you traded them in to a local gunshop for something better. The gunshop legally sells them to Joe Citizen, who re-sells them later. Then they get sold to a trafficker, and wind up in Mexico - and are recovered after a shootout. Guess what? Your name (Zorro) and your personal information will be reported to the corrupt Mexican cop who entered the eTrace report - or caused it to be entered at one of the Mexican eTrace locations. You will be a suspect to the Mexican police, and your personal data can be sold. Ain't that lovely? Tell me I'm wrong!

[Zorro]

Ike,

You bring up an interesting point on the ID theft. I do not know what ATF provides to Mexico, but ID theft is a barn burner as far as crime expansion. I have arrested more ID thieves than I can count (that means at least 21) and the ID document business is booming. If I go to my home town, I can have real docs w/ real info for $700. Less if fake docs with good info - it's pretty rare to run into someone with true fraudulent docs (possible exception the old laminated style resident alien cards) because the good ones (US birth cert and SS cards) are so readily available.

Regarding the Multi Sale forms, in a perfect world they could possibly be a useful tool. One of the things that gave me concern about the emergency request was that we were saying only 4 border states, but I could find no such restriction in the language - If that is an accurate assessment, it would be up to the public to trust our good word and given recent events, I can't blame anyone for the reluctance.

Anyone remember Joe Isuzu?

[abteilung]

Maybe ATF can create a focus group to develop a survey of preferred firearms for traffickers and dealers. We can invite them to participate through Learn ATF (Sarcastic).

Winston:

Why did you go ahead and write this? Now you've done it. Next month, there will be a new mandatory LearnATF course ("Interviewing FFL's: Firearms of Choice and the Current Trends")on all our Learning Plans.

And Winston, you won't even get a QSI for this suggestion. Some GS-15 at HQ will.

[Ike]

You're right, I'm not an ATF employee, and have stated such in previous posts. However, I've been following these issues for some time, and have some insight....

Using your examples, "Mr. X purchases seven 12 gauge shotguns in one month. While not illegal unto itself, this could be a good lead." Proposed multiple sale reporting didn't include shotguns.... If a person buys seven shotguns, it's far more likely he saw a good deal, and wants them for trading stock to enhance his collection. However, if they're Saiga 12 guage "Assault style" shotguns, then you have a valid point. If they're Browning Superposed, then I doubt if this is a problem. Of course, all agents know the difference, right?

And, yes, I've seen the pictures of sporting shotguns and .22 rabbit rifles included with the Mexican seized guns. I personally doubt, however, if these are much of a threat to Mexican law enforcement..... Probably more of a threat to the local rabbit population. I wouldn't want to go up against a full-auto AK armed with only a Ruger 10/22.

"We don't have enough agents or analysts with free time to do anything with all this data...". I don't disagree. However, ATF also has an entire organization (National Tracing Center) dedicated to accumulating registration records - with literally hundreds of millions of firearm transaction records (ATF' own figures). "What we don't do is collect data in private data bases without purpose or case specificity." I agree that agents have no time for that, but ATF (as an organization) does - so I respectfully disagree. ATF Investigators (by ATF's own admission) sometimes enter a dealer's entire 'bound book' into the suspect database. They also 'borrow', photocopy or photograph dealer books. Interesting. I could go on.....

Known registration databases: 1. Multiple Sale Reports. 2. Suspect Guns. 3. Traced Guns. 4. Out of Business Records. 5. Theft Guns. I didn't include N-Focis databases.

ATF's Gary L. Thomas, in the 2003 United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research paper mentioned above, referred to the "Gold Standard" of tracing being "web-based registration". Doesn't that kinda let the cat out of the bag? It may not be an objective of the street agents, but it certainly looks like it's an agency objective......

I didn't say ATF's goal is to confiscate firearms. Please don't put words into my mouth. What a future Congress, or President will do is an open question. What the UN will attempt by treaty in the future is also an unknown...

One gun per month would do little to reduce trafficking - especially considering "Fast and Furious". It would reduce the visibility.... With the resources the cartels have, they could enlist 20 (or 100) people to buy one gun per month, instead of one guy buying 20 at a time.

And, while we're on the subject, what possible good does it do for ATF to respond to an eTrace request from Mexican police, with a report of a firearm first purchaser name, address, height, weight, DOB, driver's license number, possibly SSN and other known firearm purchases - all reported to (possibly/probably corrupt) Mexican police who have NO jurisdiction in the United States? This is prime identity theft information! The possibly innocent first purchaser is reported to Mexican police as a suspect - but may have sold the gun in question years ago. The average age of etraced Mexican seized guns is (was) nearly 15 years! I would understand if this information was under close hold by ATF..... but it's not. And please don't say the Mexican cops are 'vetted'....

[Winston Smith]

Maybe ATF can create a focus group to develop a survey of preferred firearms for traffickers and dealers. We can invite them to participate through Learn ATF (Sarcastic).

From a pragmatic standpoint, monitoring MS of LG's makes sense. Traffickers, much as any person involved in smuggling or other illegal activity, change methods and preferences without notice. Just how many long guns does a person need to purchase every month? Could this be a pattern of illegal activity, maybe/maybe not. Use this example, Mr. X purchases seven 12 gauge shotguns in one month. While not illegal unto itself, this could be a good lead.


As far as ATF making a concerted effort to "obtain all firearm registration records," that is just silly. Let's examine why: We don't have enough agents or analysts with free time to do anything with all this data. Agents working cases on the border, with a specific mission, may use some of the sales/registration data to generate leads, which could lead to arrests and prosecutions - legit purpose without question. Most agents have little if any spare time to peruse data for fun. We are case specific and also keep eyes/ears open to trends. What we don't do is collect data in private data bases without purpose or case specificity. Our analysts are way busy as well. We have no greater plans to confiscate firearms from law abiding citizens, ok? If you doubt what I say, please articulate why. I think you are being rather petty by throwing out those suggested firearms as a basis for ATF "seeking to obtain registration records." Since you lack the trace data (doubt you are an ATF employee which isn't a bad thing), you are not aware of just how many run of the mill shotguns or rifles actually make their way into the hands of traffickers throughout the country.

I respect what you say, but disagree. The best thing people such as yourself can do is to write the border state Governors and have them enact legislation to allow only one firearm purchase per month. ATF would not need to worry about multiple sale data if people could buy only one gun per month.

Thanks for taking an interest in our agency. We are always seeking to make improvements to it.

Let's hope the reporting requirement is DOA. Had it been limited to just the calibers or models preferred by traffickers (and the Phoenix SAC, of course), then there wouldn't have been such strong objections... But, ATF management overreached (again) and instead of trying to find suspects, tried to get registration records for almost all multiple-sale semi-autos - including many C&R rifles.

Let's make no mistake.... It strongly appears ATF's primary purpose was seeking firearms registration records by the backdoor - specifically prohibited by the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. How many Winchester 1907 rifles, M1 Carbines, WWII G.42 rifles, MAS44, MAS 49, or FN49 rifles are bought by traffickers? Yet all would have had to be reported in multiple sales.

[Ike]

Let's hope the reporting requirement is DOA. Had it been limited to just the calibers or models preferred by traffickers (and the Phoenix SAC, of course), then there wouldn't have been such strong objections... But, ATF management overreached (again) and instead of trying to find suspects, tried to get registration records for almost all multiple-sale semi-autos - including many C&R rifles.

Let's make no mistake.... It strongly appears ATF's primary purpose was seeking firearms registration records by the backdoor - specifically prohibited by the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. How many Winchester 1907 rifles, M1 Carbines, WWII G.42 rifles, MAS44, MAS 49, or FN49 rifles are bought by traffickers? Yet all would have had to be reported in multiple sales.

[Rusty Shackelford]

A news article on the ATF news website (internal) reports that a RIDER was placed in the current budget prohibiting the requirement to force Multiple sales reporting on long guns. Bottom line is, we could have never managed all that information. The FFL's are voluntarily reporting and we cant keep up with it.

So Vincent, what exactly are FFL's reporting voluntarily? In other words, if there is no requirement, why increase the mess and hassle for themselves? Additionally, why aid the government in potentially creating an effective registry, on a national basis, or long gun ownership?

Lastly, what do most FFL's view as being a suspicious "multiple long gun purchase"? In other words, two? More than two? Three?

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

A news article on the ATF news website (internal) reports that a RIDER was placed in the current budget prohibiting the requirement to force Multiple sales reporting on long guns. Bottom line is, we could have never managed all that information. The FFL's are voluntarily reporting and we cant keep up with it.

[Zorro]

Short answer is NO; no reporting requirement has been implemented.

[Rusty Shackelford]

Hi. My apologies if I am posting this in the wrong forum or if a thread has already been made about, however, I have a question. Does anyone know if the proposal by the ATF/Federal Government to require FFLs (i.e. gun dealers) to report multiple purchases of long guns by a single purchaser on the same day (or over the course of 5 business days from what I hear) to the ATF has taken effect yet? If so, please provide some relevant links to news reports chronicling such. Thanks in advance.

[abteilung]

I say, give Issa and Grassley a year. By this time next year, the 2012 election cycle will be revving up, and a class action lawsuit against ATF and DoJ going into the November elections will stir up some consternation. Personally, I think that if a Republican becomes President in January 2013, ATF's days are numbered. And the way things are going, that may not necessarily be a bad thing.

[Jaime3]

I hope so...because this is absolutely ridiculous!
Some people just want to do their jobs...without the eggshells!

We may have to do that but it is preferable to hold off a little longer to see if these congressional hearings can accomplish something first. It would be nice if the Department of Justice actually handled things judiciously.

[GoodWorker]

I'm just putting it out there...

Because so many of us have experienced the same kind of retaliation, but on different levels...why not find 1 individual who acquires a right to sue letter and enter into a Class Action lawsuit?
Find a hungry Attorney, willing to do Justice within the spotlight, and make our complaints Viral!

Because it seems like each individual person is trying to fight a battle that is financially crushing us person by person.
As long as the complaints are target toward Gross Mismanagement and Retaliation...it is winnable!


Any suggestions?
Agreements?
Disagreements?

We may have to do that but it is preferable to hold off a little longer to see if these congressional hearings can accomplish something first. It would be nice if the Department of Justice actually handled things judiciously.

[Jaime3]

I'm just putting it out there... Because so many of us have experienced the same kind of retaliation, but on different levels...why not find 1 individual who acquires a right to sue letter and enter into a Class Action lawsuit? Find a hungry Attorney, willing to do Justice within the spotlight, and make our complaints Viral! Because it seems like each individual person is trying to fight a battle that is financially crushing us person by person. As long as the complaints are target toward Gross Mismanagement and Retaliation...it is winnable! Any suggestions? Agreements? Disagreements?

[GoodWorker]

I did put in for the now-canceled Assessment Center. I wasn't terribly bothered by the cancellation because in my heart of hearts, I honestly believe that the AC is rigged [and I won't even get into the Black Agents issue from a couple of years back]. To me, ATF management is like being in the Skull-and-Bones or the Illuminati -- they're only going to accept who they want, unless they're FORCED into promoting a particular agent. Yes, on occasion, a decent, hard working agent is promoted to a -14 job, but they're put into some paper-pushing job at HQ which slowly corrodes their morale and eats away at their soul. Meanwhile, the s--tbags are put in charge of field groups.
Or, the GS-14 or -15 who has a hard on for you gets word that you put in for the AC, and they call their old FLETC classmate or their old drinking partner who's going to be on the assessment panel and tell them, "Hey, old buddy, this puke street agent named Abteilung in my Division is taking the AC. Make sure he/she doesn't pass, OK?"
Do I really want to put the effort into something that just won't happen? Yes, you have to be in it to win it, but neither am I going to sign up for the NYC marathon and expect to win either.

I could not agree any stronger. It is the same thing with any special duty you put in for or transfers you want. They will lie when you ask them if they made or received any calls on the issue.

[abteilung]

I also voted Yes- for media and Congress only. I wish that there was a way to recognize the good agents properly without putting a target on their backs. Meanwhile, it is critical to keep in the agency those who are committed to doing their jobs properly and for the right reasons, and who may also have had experience with retaliation and getting smacked down by the system. Right now, sadly, that means keeping your anonymity. Those of you who fit that description are precisely the ones who should, if things are to be turned around, be helping change the culture by naming those who need to be weeded out and perhaps to take management positions where they can help the field agents run things as they should. I know there are some who don't want to be in management for any reason, just as in other fields of employment. But good leaders need to rise up if a clear path is opened for them. I realize that's a big "if" at this point.

I did put in for the now-canceled Assessment Center. I wasn't terribly bothered by the cancellation because in my heart of hearts, I honestly believe that the AC is rigged [and I won't even get into the Black Agents issue from a couple of years back]. To me, ATF management is like being in the Skull-and-Bones or the Illuminati -- they're only going to accept who they want, unless they're FORCED into promoting a particular agent. Yes, on occasion, a decent, hard working agent is promoted to a -14 job, but they're put into some paper-pushing job at HQ which slowly corrodes their morale and eats away at their soul. Meanwhile, the s--tbags are put in charge of field groups.
Or, the GS-14 or -15 who has a hard on for you gets word that you put in for the AC, and they call their old FLETC classmate or their old drinking partner who's going to be on the assessment panel and tell them, "Hey, old buddy, this puke street agent named Abteilung in my Division is taking the AC. Make sure he/she doesn't pass, OK?"
Do I really want to put the effort into something that just won't happen? Yes, you have to be in it to win it, but neither am I going to sign up for the NYC marathon and expect to win either.

[Outsider]

I also voted Yes- for media and Congress only. I wish that there was a way to recognize the good agents properly without putting a target on their backs. Meanwhile, it is critical to keep in the agency those who are committed to doing their jobs properly and for the right reasons, and who may also have had experience with retaliation and getting smacked down by the system. Right now, sadly, that means keeping your anonymity. Those of you who fit that description are precisely the ones who should, if things are to be turned around, be helping change the culture by naming those who need to be weeded out and perhaps to take management positions where they can help the field agents run things as they should. I know there are some who don't want to be in management for any reason, just as in other fields of employment. But good leaders need to rise up if a clear path is opened for them. I realize that's a big "if" at this point.

[apostate]

Abteilung- Same happened to me when in ATF. Did a big investigation. I think was around 15-18 ended being arrested. 2 received life sentences. 3 homicides solved etc etc. Award from US attorney's office. ASAC, who is famous for phugging with agents and making their lives miserable, went into N-force and tried to give me days off because of minor admin stuff. I mean really minor like not checking a box.. As an agent all i wanted to do was do my job, help the locals, put the really bad dangerous guys in prison and be left alone. I knew after my first year at ATF asking for Mgt to support our investigations was a moot point. Yet to this day ATF keeps promoting and rewarding those with absolutely no investigative experience, documented employee abuse and major ethical baggage. At the same time trying to destroy honest hard working employees I think it has reached a point where the agency has become so corrupt, inept, and morale so low, that the public will demand it be dissolved. Shame that nothing was done to stop this demise

[abteilung]

I agree with apostate. Our leaders [and that's probably an insult to anyone else who's ever been called a leader, like "Joseph Stalin, the leader of the Soviet Union during WWII," or "Charles Manson, the leader of a murderous cult in the 1960's and 1970's"] have shown time and time again that they can't stand rank-and-file agents who do a notable job. Most of our bosses are empty suits, "one-case" of "scammer" agents who quickly ran into SOO or management jobs because they figured out, in their bullying, predatory ways, that it's far, far safer to go after rank-and-file while hiding behind their GS-14 and GS-15 authority than to go after violent street criminals. I recently successfully investigated, prosecuted a long term case which led to a substantial sentence for the offender, with significant media attention. So what happened a few days later? The s--mb-g ASAC goes into all my cases into NFORCE, starts nitpicking, and then has my RAC call me in for "counseling." With that "attaboy" from ATF management, I sure as heck wouldn't want my name put in a Hall of Fame. My Division's Management would probably stick a dead body in the trunk of my G-ride, and dump empty beer bottles in the back seat, and call the local police and then OPRSO.

[apostate]

I'll echo Zorro's statement. My experience in ATF is that when an ATF agent IOI does a good job, works hard, and tries to exposes corruption, crime within ATF he is immediately attacked and ATF management. then starts the process to fire him drive him out of the agency. This scenario has been played out repeatedly and is well documented on here. Word is that the 5th floor is really po'd and want revenge against the agent IOI's for exposing their antics.

[apostate]

I'll echo Zorro's statement. My experience in ATF is that when an ATF agent IOI does a good job, works hard, and tries to exposes corruption, crime within ATF he is immediately attacked and ATF management. then starts the process to fire him drive him out of the agency. This scenario has been played out repeatedly and is well documented on here. Word is that the 5th floor is really po'd and want revenge against the agent IOI's for exposing their antics.

[apostate]

I'll echo Zorro's statement. My experience in ATF is that when an ATF agent IOI does a good job, works hard, and tries to exposes corruption, crime within ATF he is immediately attacked and ATF management. then starts the process to fire him drive him out of the agency. This scenario has been played out repeatedly and is well documented on here. Word is that the 5th floor is really po'd and want revenge against the agent IOI's for exposing their antics.

[apostate]

I'll echo Zorro's statement. My experience in ATF is that when an ATF agent IOI does a good job, works hard, and tries to exposes corruption, crime within ATF he is immediately attacked and ATF management. then starts the process to fire him drive him out of the agency. This scenario has been played out repeatedly and is well documented on here. Word is that the 5th floor is really po'd and want revenge against the agent IOI's for exposing their antics.

[Zorro]

I voted yes but only for congress and media for the very reason you stated. If potential employee-nominees were consulted and gave approval to post their names, different story. Sadly, I suspect that anyone being named by rank and file (especially THIS rank and file) as "respected" would paint a target on the people who deserve the recognition.

[GoodWorker]

I want to know what all of you think about starting a CUATF Hall of Fame. We already have the Hall of Shame but I think it is important to acknowledge the courageous acts of those ATF personnel as well as our friends in the media, the House of Representatives, and the Senate. My only concern is for the ATF personnel because I do not want to paint a bigger target on my ATF HEROES. It is a shame that people who have made a big improvement in ATF have to worry and lay low. I am proud of all of you who have made a difference. Semper Fi! .