290 replies to this topic

[Ike]

It appears ATF's National Tracing Center isn't telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" about computerized databases of firearms registration records.... In a March 25, 2011 article, Minnesota Public Radio reported: (http://minnesota.pub...atf-gun-library)

"Contrary to popular belief, there is no computerized database the ATF can search to find a gun owner. The ATF uses 20th century technology -- the telephone -- to first call the company that made the firearm. "We have to have them look into their records and tell us what they did with it," Houser said. "And we follow the chain of distribution of the firearm all the way until we find a retail purchase."

That's only part of the story (perhaps an official 'half-truth'. Mr. Houser seems to be overlooking some of the computerized databases at the NTC. According to Wikipedia (taken from official ATF sources), there are five databases of ATF firearms registration records that contain names and addresses of owners, along with other personal information: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETrace)

1. Multiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address - increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.

2. Suspect Guns. All guns "suspected" of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms (including collectors of older firearms rarely used in crime), and dealers with "improper" record keeping. May include guns “observed” by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere. Reported as 34,807 in 2010.

3. Traced Guns. Over 1.2 million (2002) detail results from all traces. ATF reported 343,746 guns were traced in 2009, and a total of 4 million traces since inception.This is a registration record which includes Names and Addresses of the first retail seller and purchaser.

4. Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form - in digital or image format. [This database can't be directly searched?] In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968.

5. Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010.[7] Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional). Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported.

[Cool Hand]

As far as I'm concerned,this website has been consistently about reform--the reform of a Federal law enforcement agency with serious leadership problems. Think of the old "black bag" FBI. Think of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics before their move from Treasury to DOJ (QUESTION: just how many old school Narcotics Agents were indicted for getting a little too familiar with their "subject matter" before the big sea change in 1968?). Think of the U.S. military during those dark days during and immediately following the Viet Nam War (hell, think of the military during those dark days during and immediately following the Civil War). Reform is not some far fetched dream conjured up by "angry bloggers". Reform is the natural by-product of the great American principal of "checks and balances". Our founding fathers had this all figured out. The framers of our constitution understood the nature of abusive leaders and power crazed executives. They saw it coming and they knew it would happen over and over again. Nixon did not fall by accident--it took a brilliantly constructed system of overlapping jurisdictions, a heavily insulated watchdog media...and the sacrifice of patriotic whistleblowers. Reform is wonderfully American, as American as the three branch system itself. As we speak, a transformed, all volunteer, battle tested, lean and mean, post-Viet Nam military is effectively waging war on several continents (and God bless their service to this outstanding democracy). Simply put, ATF is due for reform. This won't even be our first refitting. There is nothing new under the sun. Let's get this blood letting over with and get back to the business of confronting violent criminals as an organization the public can be proud of.

[Enufsenuf]

I hope I am wrong about the benefit of this website. I want this agency to be what is should be. Not filled with discontented and demoralized agents beaten down by bureaucrats and political hacks. I understand your anger, been there. Was angry for many years about my situation and the situation of others just trying to do the right thing. But you know what, that anger begins to really consume your life. Almost cost me my marriage. Eventually you have to let it go, the anger I mean. For me I figured out that if I can get up every day and go to work with the mindset of doing what I knew to be right, then I was winning the fight. To me keeping faith with my brothers and sister agents and supporting them day to day is my mission now. Small victories is all I work for now.

I saw your post and the part highlighted above hit a chord with me so I just wanted to comment. Yep, I had that anger and it consumed me to the point of depression, but thankfully it also worked to fuel my fight. That was when the IOIs were covered by the union and I went to the union after a series of issues including harrassment from management, "admonishment" letters, a 5-day suspension, etc. -- all because I was exercising my right to grieve management actions. The union had a great attorney who worked with us for over 2 years (i.e. I didn't have to pay out-of-pocket and deplete family finances to fight). Unfortunately, we ran into the same problems with HQ as many others on this site have and are encountering - lack of timely responses, dismissing grievances without any authority to do so, producing documents the night before a scheduled hearing, continual requests for extensions, retaliation because of the grievances, etc. After about 2 1/2 years when everything was resolved and an agreement was reached, I could not seem to shake the anger I continued to feel. This website did not exist at that time (at least to my knowledge) and I had that feeling of aloneness others have mentioned in their posts ... along with fear of what was coming next from management. I can't say that it almost cost me my marriage, but it wasn't a happy time. For me, I needed to let the anger go to survive and move on and that would have been a heck of a lot easier had this website been up and running back then.

I was ecstatic to see this site developed and I believe it is needed. Employees have no other place to air their frustrations and to "discuss" management matters . . . unless they have a confidant in their office. I've learned, however, not to put my faith in coworkers - I save that for God alone. As referenced in one of your earlier posts, I don't find this site entertaining - I find it sad that ATF has so many people at the top who have so little regard for others and themselves. It is sad that so many employees and their families are affected by ATF's mis-management. My heart breaks for people who are in daily battles with management ... because I remember what it was like. As you suggested in one post, why the heck would we want to "engage" with those we are hammering? I want nothing to do with management. Let me do my work and leave me alone.

But is this site beneficial to employees? You bet ya! I'm thankful for those who developed the site and for all of the insite I and others have received from the webmaster, moderators and other members. Sometimes you've just got to do what's right and management isn't doing it. Do I want to see ATF dissolved or our functions go to another agency? Nope, but if management can't get it together maybe that would be best. And to answer one of your previous questions, I think everyone who browses this website feels better after doing so. I, for one, feel encouraged that I'm not alone and that I now have others to vent with ... even though I may not know their "real" names.

Have a great day everyone!

[The Original Ralph]

i hesitated before deciding to throw my 2 cents in on this topic. i've been in the firearms industry for 27 years. The standards of conduct i've observed from dealing with washington DC, the outright lies i've documented from ATF General Counsel's office on down, some in OIG complaints, and the absolute lack of any consistency in policy or interpretation of existing regulations, the arrogance i've seen demonstrated by every branch at HQ, Wash DC, have horrified me. I couldn't believe the difference in standards from what i'd observed in the military.

To say some would "destroy" ATF is true and you can count me in that category. The arrogance and corruption of standards / integrity is so bad, on one occasion i actually asked one of the few people at HQ Wash DC, that I trust: "had lying become a professional responsibility at ATF?", to which he responded "Unfortunately yes - no one here knows how to apologize when they're wrong and made a mistake, instead they immediately go to circling the wagons mode".

If you had a house, built on loose sand on the edge of a swamp, and with a termite infestation that's been active for 20+ years, do you try to renovate that structure, or knock it down and rebuild it on firmer soil with termite shields. I learned a long time ago in a situation like that it's smarter, more efficient and with a much higher expectation of successful results to build new.

just 02 from an old fart that's been there

[beckroge]

Mr. Ike; I think that the American expression that is used says to 'call a spade a spade.' The problems at ATF are the result of senior managers not adhering to the mission of serving the public. You could also say that things are complicated by the fact that your legislators send neurotic laws for ATF to enforce that are crazy, silly, or so narrowly tailored as to remove the ability for interpretation in anything but a stupid way. That has allowed senior managers to rule over the public instead of serve the public. When the police get to write their own mission with no oversight bad things will happen. Your ATF has no top leader and your legislators wash their hands of any responsibility as soon as the cameras are turned off. Ich bin ein berliner!

[Ike]

Confession is good for the soul, right? As much as I hate to admit it, I don't hate ATF..... But, I hate some of ATF's policies and decisions, and I hate some of the attitudes and arrogance. Actually, I admire those good agents who have put your life on the line to put away really bad guys - and to those agents, I salute you. I stand beside you. I'd be proud to buy a round - and drink with you. And to those of you on this forum - who are standing up to be counted..... Damn, you make us proud. But, do I admire the Firearms Technology Folks who rule that a piece of string is a machine gun? Or a muzzle break that reduces muzzle blast by 1db is considered a silencer? Or who manipulate ammo so a semi-auto AR-15 will double or triple? - and then put a man in prison because he sold it? Do I admire the ATF employees who testify that the NFRTR is 100% accurate knowing fully well that it's riddled with errors? Do I admire the Inspectors who have a chip on their shoulder, and announce they're here to shut you down? Or allow a 'bound book' practice on one inspection, then write it as a violation on the next? Most dealers aren't criminals and don't want criminals to have guns. Hell, the criminals will use the guns to rob us, or invade our homes. Why would we want that? And, what about the Inspectors who require an ordinary gunsmith to be licensed as a manufacturer - even though he manufactures nothing? Do I admire ATF supervisors who abuse or slight their employees? Or any of the other unfair and unjust practices explained on this forum? Do I admire those managers who lie to the American People? That 90% of the guns seized in Mexico come from the United States? Then manipulate the data (and the investigations) to prove it? (Does Gunwalker come to mind?) The eTrace System that gives our personal data to corrupt Mexican (or Columbian or El Salvador, or U.S. for that matter)Cops? No matter how innocent we are? Or the de facto registration system that ATF is pushing - asking cops to trace every possible gun? Why is every traced gun (no matter how innocent) a 'crime gun'? Why is every dealer with a lot of traces, a 'criminal friendly" FFL? Even though he's the largest dealer in the state and fully cooperates with Enforcement? Or what about the agents who pursue normally law-abiding citizens for technical violations when a kind word might solve the problem? Where did ATF common sense go? Some of you still have it (and I'm grateful to you for that) - but I think the agency has lost it. It's clear that a lot of senior management either lost it or never had it. Maybe it's the lawyers? To those of you with clear vision, keep up the good work. To the rest, I hope you can see the light..... Ok, it's kinda rambling - but I hope it gets the point across? I think I need a drink......

[johnm]

I don't believe anyone is trying to hurt specific field agents. I do observe that there is a large contingent that believe that the ATF is no longer worth the money that we citizens funnel into it. You are forgetting that we are the customers and we do not believe that we are getting value from this organization. As a matter of fact we are getting more abuse for our money than service. At a time of critical budget shortfalls, I believe that we have to seriously consider defunding this orgainzation and place the enforcement of related laws in the hands of the FBI where they used to be before the
organization was formed.

First and foremost this organization has lost the idea that they are public servants and work for the people (my opinion). I do not believe the organization is working in the best interest of the taxpayer and citizen. There is a mission to be performed. I just believe the organization has lost site of that mission.

Sorry if you are an employee, which I suspect. This is not a personal comment about your service and contributions since I don't know you personally. I am sure that if you are a good public servant, you will have no problem finding a job where you can more positively contribute to the tax payers needs.

JohnM

[Doc Holiday]

This was sent to me by a former ATF Employee who did the right thing and held ATF leadership to task. This goes out to all who have either sat back and cheered from the sidelines, or challenged those who have stood tall to get ATF back on track. READ CAREFULLY

First they came…" is a famous statement attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. The text of the quotation is usually presented roughly as follows:

First they came....

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

-------------------

[Doc Holiday]

Covert one, Thanks for your insight . The "go-along-to-get-along" crowd is done in ATF. These Agents took an oath and it wasn't to Ken Melson, Eric Holder or even President Barack Obama; it was to the Constitution..."All enemies foreign and domestic." The fifth floor has become a domestic enemy to that Constitution. No matter how either side spins it, right is right and wrong is wrong. The spin machine, the "Big Picture", the Martins and Hoovers of the world who suggest that we in the field and the American taxpayers are too ignorant to understand these issues, have got to leave. To all of them, it doesn't matter how many times you say it in the mirror and validate each other through your own channels; the answer does not always land somewhere in the middle.

God Bless Agents Dobyns and Dodson.

John Boy, I've gotten word of who you are and Jumper is right. We disagree on this website but your service at Waco and elsewhere make you instantly credible so I will respect your views.

On the topic of enemies, ATF will always have its enemies. But the stronger enemy has emerged from within and as you know, the only way to chase the cockroaches out is shine a light on them. When your peers exposed themselves to speak out on Waco didn't you remain concealed and hidden giving a statement in shadows? John Dodson didn't. Vince Cefalu hasn't. Frank D'Alesio won't. Hiram Andres couldn't. Some of those who ATF attempted to destroy did what management wanted them to. Roll over, keep quiet, retire or wait for time to pass so they can return to good graces and have a new cushy job. Others have not. I'll come out an be honest, if not embarrassed. I'm not about to. I can't stand the heat. I am one of the ones silent in the shadows.

I understand you work with Dobyns on NIBIN (thank you Webmaster for taking up for my friends Jay and Vince). I think you should tell him to keep quite and solve his problem "in house". I challenge you to have the conversation with him. Do you have any idea what ATF did to him? Even the slightest? The details of those events that most of ATF is aware of are those that have been spun out of HQ (take the credibility of the HQ sources for whatever you feel they are worth). The Dobyns debacle is one the great personal tragedies ever at ATF. No comparison to Ariel Rios, Waco or Brian Terry's murder but none-the-less a black eye on ATF for allowing what has happened to him. Very discouraging to anyone here who ever laid it on the line and of all people you know that.

Before I signed on to read today's banter I checked this site and found this posting. Read the comments and give Jay a call. http://blog.jaydobyn...?p=325#comments You complain about this website spinning inaccurate information. Pick up the phone and tell him you are defending the people that have permitted and continue for this to happen.

What is too be accomplished at CUATF? This is not my platform but change, hopefully. Accountability. That might be naive, maybe improbable, likely impossible. Do you want to sit back after what you have been through and cross your fingers that things will get better? ATF has declined since Waco. That is not good enough for a lot of people who view this agency as more than a regular paycheck. Is there anyone at ATF that you feel is going to step up and right the wrongs? I want to find the hope that you have somehow found. John Boy consider this. ATF has 5000 employees, maybe 2500 agents. Of those only a very small portion will stand up to the machine for good "survival instinct" reasons. So if this site is as you claim not accomplishing anything how do you account for over 150,000 viewings and thousands of postings? Your topic alone has almost 1,000 viewings since it was created 24 hours ago.

Lots of people are watching and most are not ATF personnel and the numbers confirm that. Are some ATF's enemies? Without a doubt. But are some oversight agencies, government watchdogs, independent bloggers, members of Congress and the Senate, the Attorney General's office, the White House, the State Department, Foreign governments, civilians. You bet they are. This site is causing change, they are just not doing it the way you want them to.

Again, give us an idea. You passed on the request to come to HQ.

[vinnie]

I am not ATF. I do not want the ATF destroyed. If even significant fraction of the alleged facts are true I think the "destruction" of the ATF is not the worst case scenario. 2 federal agents killed by "walked guns". How many other citizens were killed? If you tell yourself that the criminals would have obtained guns anyway what are you getting paid for? You just admitted that the ATF is ineffective. If the criminals would not have obtained the guns anyway how many murders are the people who made these decisions accomplice to?

[GoodWorker]

Thank you Webmaster. Veritas ("truth", as he/she likes to be called), is full of the blind loyalty which has compounded the whole situation. I truly appreciate "Covert One" coming out and acknowledging his/her fears instead of downplaying others' experiences. Keep doing what you are doing Web Master!

[GoodWorker]

Well I am glad you have it all figured out. I now can sleep better at night, again thanks. No one will know how this plays until it does so we are ALL guessing on this website. Since you are not a disinterested party I cant rely on just your version of the facts. Anyone can post here and say whatever they want. But don't talk down to me or suggest that you have a monopoly on the facts.

I hope I am wrong about the benefit of this website. I want this agency to be what is should be. Not filled with discontented and demoralized agents beaten down by bureaucrats and political hacks. I understand your anger, been there. Was angry for many years about my situation and the situation of others just trying to do the right thing. But you know what, that anger begins to really consume your life. Almost cost me my marriage. Eventually you have to let it go, the anger I mean. For me I figured out that if I can get up every day and go to work with the mindset of doing what I knew to be right, then I was winning the fight. To me keeping faith with my brothers and sister agents and supporting them day to day is my mission now. Small victories is all I work for now.

What is the solution? I wish I could give you a good answer. I know the frustration and despair all too well. I just know that those in this country who want to do away with us will use this website to further their own agenda and pervert the good we do every day.

God bless and best wishes to you, I hope you find the justice you seek.

I thank God for SA Dodson and SA Cefalu. The courage they have demonstrated over the past year reflects credit upon themselves and ATF. This website gives good workers a place to air their concerns. I am sure there are some parties using this platform for their own agenda but the vast majority of people posting their concerns are good workers who have grown tired of trying to get things done within the mechanisms set up by ATF.

John Boy stated he had his own battles with ATF in the past. OK, so you chose to handle your situation in the manner you saw fit. I do not know how long ago you had your battle with ATF but it obviously did not have a positive impact on the way ATF workers' issues are addressed.

[John Boy]

I am not disagreeing with your point. I wish I had a solution. ATF has serious problems. I have been battling with HQ for the past year and had no success. We have promoted a lot of people who should have been fired. One of the problems in ATF is we give people the choice of being promoted or staying a street agent. That same problem allowed me to say no to going to HQ, which I was very happy about. So what is the solution? Take our best street agents and force them into management? That sucks for the good street agents. Continue the current path that allows agents to decide if they want to go into HQ? As a street agent, I really like having that choice. Here is the real problem in ATF. It is easier to promote an idiot away from you than deal with him due to our processes. Ask yourself, have you ever had an idiot in your office and when he put in for a job at another location, the guys there called you and you told them "he's the best guy we got, hate to lose him." In a big agency like the FBI, you might not ever see him again. In ATF, we are learning that plan eventually bites you in the ass. My issue with all this is that our enemies, and trust me, we have enemies, are laughing as we destroy ourselves. We have problems. We have serious problems in ATF. It is like a pack of wolves watching the two bull moose fight each other. After both moose are exhausted, they will move in and kill both of them. It won't matter which bull was better, they will both be dead and eaten. Jumper is right, I don't have an answer. I wish I had a solution to fix everything, but I don't. I just don't think this public forum is the answer. Merry Christmas NRA!

[Veritas]

Well I am glad you have it all figured out. I now can sleep better at night, again thanks. No one will know how this plays until it does so we are ALL guessing on this website. Since you are not a disinterested party I cant rely on just your version of the facts. Anyone can post here and say whatever they want. But don't talk down to me or suggest that you have a monopoly on the facts. I hope I am wrong about the benefit of this website. I want this agency to be what is should be. Not filled with discontented and demoralized agents beaten down by bureaucrats and political hacks. I understand your anger, been there. Was angry for many years about my situation and the situation of others just trying to do the right thing. But you know what, that anger begins to really consume your life. Almost cost me my marriage. Eventually you have to let it go, the anger I mean. For me I figured out that if I can get up every day and go to work with the mindset of doing what I knew to be right, then I was winning the fight. To me keeping faith with my brothers and sister agents and supporting them day to day is my mission now. Small victories is all I work for now. What is the solution? I wish I could give you a good answer. I know the frustration and despair all too well. I just know that those in this country who want to do away with us will use this website to further their own agenda and pervert the good we do every day. God bless and best wishes to you, I hope you find the justice you seek.

[Zorro]

To the two of you opining that corruption should not be exposed, do you have any alternate suggestions? You are telling everyone they are wrong and you have been repeatedly asked what is right, but nothing offered - other than possibly an implied "keep it secret".

[John Boy]

CUATF WEBMASTER, Thanks for making my case. You minimize the example of a anti-ATF organization using this information to distort the truth for their own gain and the response from an ATF agent explaining himself and his opinion. You might check to see if the site "Destroy ATF.org" is available. Jumper, you have my name and phone number. No one in ATF can question my knowledge on Waco or Oklahoma City.

[Ike]

My personal experience with ATF hasn't been all negative.... As I said in my last paragraph, "We know there are many good employees and agents of ATF. Over the years, we've met some of them, and we support you." As far as I'm concerned, ATF and FFL holders should be a partnership to keep the industry clean - not an antagonistic relationship.

[Zorro]

Ike: Veritas speaks the truth. When you are on the other side, you see it goes both ways. I have seen things I would never have believed had I not been working here and seen it for myself. What hits the internet and industry is often whatever part of the story that suits the agenda of the story teller and the teller is often asking for money to slay the evil dragon. Veritas - good thing we are not bigger IMO. We need to have a long term track record of weilding power wisely and being fiscally responsible before getting any more power or money.

[Veritas]

IKE: Sorry to hear your personal experience with ATF has been negative. I will say that day to day I try very hard to keep a positive working relationship with all of the FFL's in my area. They can be great allies in identifying and intercepting traffickers. However, in my area I only have one FFL who regularly calls me when he/she suspects a problem purchaser. The rest sell the gun and then call. Well maybe. Thats just the reality of regulating the gun industry. We all know the blatant trafficking scenarios like large purchases of black guns. But more commonly in my area FFLs do stupid or unlawful things like telling a guy that gets denied by NICS that he cant sell HIM the gun but it would not be unlawful for him to sell it to his wife, or friend. Or the FFL that takes in and sells used guns without ever running them through his/her books, no paper = more money from someone looking for an off paper deal. More often than not stuff like that is just one greedy partner trying to hide money from another. This is more common than you might think and it seems to be happening more and more in my area lately. I know the profit margin on new guns is minimal and times are tough but we need to work together. I judge every FFL individually and consider them as a partner in making sure bad guys don't get guns until their actions prove otherwise. As for ATF on the IOI side goes I have seen them bend over backwards to NOT revoke licenses when we on the CE side believe that the dealer should be out of business. Hey if you cant account for dozens of firearms and have no idea where they went to in my opinion you really should not be in business. But I have seen these people get a second and sometimes a third chance before action is taken and then IO usually allows them to surrender their FFL sparing them a revocation. So lets not say ATF is unreasonable with FFL's. I have seen it from both sides. Like I said I cant speak to your personal experience but we are a small agency (by design you see, thanks NRA!) and have learned that in general be nice, you usually get farther that way. Also, I have NEVER seen nor heard in over 10 years of service, ATF referring a case or any US Attorney criminally prosecuting any FFL for technical violations like IKE cites. If that has happened I would like to know about it. Seriously, I would. Please post the case info. Sometimes I have trouble getting felons/other prohibited persons caught red handed with firearms prosecuted in a timely manner due to the sheer number of cases referred. Things must be really slow in that area or there is more to the story. As for the Mexican trace stats. I remember watching one of our DAD's on tv once being interviewed about Mexican trace info. He said that 90% of the guns that were SUCCESSFULLY TRACED, traced back to the US to mostly FFLs on the border. I know, I heard with my own ears. What you heard I cant say. If you are confused by that I am sorry but it kinda made sense to me at the time. Wishing you well and hopefully letting you see a glimpse of what I see. Thank you.

[Ike]

I've been reading the posts here for a while, now. Although I'm not an ATF employee, I've been observing and dealing with the agency for many years. There have been several interesting discussions on this forum, and I'd like to offer an outside opinion - or two. As a member of the public, we have no interest in the 'bad guys' getting and using guns. However, for ATF to be expending tax dollars to prosecute some poor schmuck who makes a minor technical violation with no criminal intent, is just plain dumb. It's a victimless, technical offense. For example, a basement gunsmith who makes a pistol out of a rifle action (especially a single shot .22), even if it's a brand new action, or a rifle or shotgun barrel just a tad too short. Or owning a collectors pistol with a shoulder stock which is a few numbers over the allowed serial number. ATF has a history of harassing good citizens who make such minor violations. I could go on with many, many examples. Oh, yeah... There's that ATF ruling that a piece of string is a machine gun. I've got a copy of the ATF letter. Now, that's just plain foolish. Now, ATF won't even let me order a replacement barrel for my Walther PPK pistol from Germany.... Yeah, that makes the country safer. The Gun Control Act of 1968 specifically provided for periodic amnesties for machine guns, destructive devices, short barreled rifles, 'silencers', and the like. For various reasons, ATF has defied the law, and refused to allow any further amnesty after the first one in 1968. So Grandpa's Schmeisser (which he brought back from WWII) that the family found in his estate, can never be legally registered. Shouldn't these be treated differently and more humanely than the trafficker who is converting AKs to full-auto? Instead of being treated as a valuable, historic family heirloom, the family might as well go sell it on a street corner and get a few bucks for it. During annual FFL inspections, ATF investigators frequently come in with antagonistic attitudes, and that always makes us want to cooperate! ATF consistently goes after FFL dealers for minor bookkeeping violations which could be easily corrected. Some ATF Investigators invent violations which aren't in the regs, and cite violations which ATF HQ have stated aren't violations. What's with that? ATF has a history of abuses.... Gunwalker, Clifford Posey, Steven Campbell, Russell Vander Werf (ATF Poster Boy), Arnold Smalley III (What? She jumped on your hood??), Carl J. Truscott, Jon Carl Petersen (those teens were doing what??), Phillip J. Chojnacki and Charles D. Sarabyn, Calvin D. Rahn and Karl Terlau, just to mention a few. All are candidates for your Hall of Shame. On February 2008, William Hoover testified before Congress that over 90% of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States. In May, 2008, William Newell reported: "When 90 percent-plus of the firearms recovered from these violent drug cartels are from a U.S. source, we have a responsibility to do everything we can to stem the illegal flow of these firearms to these thugs." (Yeah, right!) In 2010, ATF admitted that “the 90% figure cited to Congress could be misleading". Duh! Does ATF management think the American People are completely stupid? And, of course, thanks for ATF's lovely eTrace program that reports as suspects, innocent dealers and first purchaser personal information (enough for identity theft) to corrupt Mexican (and Columbian, etc.) cops. Thanks, guys. I'm sure the Mexican cops will remember that all of us are innocent until proven guilty...... And you now have over 400 million firearms sales transactions in your databases now? I could write a lot more, but it's probably a waste of time. We know there are many good employees and agents of ATF. Over the years, we've met some of them, and we support you. But what about all these others......?

[apostate]

Afraid would have to agree with John Boy on this one Gosh golly gee wiz I really think ATF management promotes on merit and hard work, number of complex investigations and not on other corrupt factors. They are all a bunch of super nice and super kewl guys who have the saftey of the public and the well being and safety of their employees and street agents as their number one priority. By gosh they would never retaliatate against hard working employees. That would be an anathema in ATF! They would never never ever steal firearms at FTB, misuse tax payer funded g-rides to attend adult entertainment places, discriminate against military veterans,trash g rides and lie, commit fraud on travel vouchers,fail to investigate a torched employee's residence, banish agents for merely ego satisfaction,engage in racist remarks, send agents to their deaths, stalk or harass employees, lie under oath etc etc etc. ATF management is just a bunch of super nice and honest guys. Don't you all understand? Please understand. Let's just shut down this site and get back to work. Forget anything ever happpened Thank you

[Zorro]

Veritas: I am not a moderator or webmaster, but I will answer your questions from a mere participant point of view: End Game = attempting to rebuild a broken trust with the public. It won't be accomplished in this generation of employees but it can start. Admitting there is a problem is step 1 and thus far that has not occurred outside these pages. I see more self service than public service and so do a good number of people who work hard and pay for us to live well. SESers taking direction from here or resigning? Absolutely not. Engagement? From what I can tell, that has failed for the better part of 2 decades. I haven't been here that long, so someone please correct me if that is an overstatement. How much longer should these guys try? Before I entered the ranks of whistle blowers, I reported certainly unethical and possibly illegal conduct to senior management, foolishly thinking it would get addressed and corrected. Let's just say I was mistaken. Turns out that when senior managers do bad things, the definition of bad changes. I'll ask you the same as John Boy: What do we do? Keep the dirty laundry in house for another 20 and hope some people develop a moral compass?

[Spencer tea party]

FIRST POST Good Evening; I just stumbled across this site yesterday,and found it interesting.I will admit right off the bat that I have never been a fan of the BATF,because of all the harrassment of FFL holders,the myriad of ever-changing regulations, seemingly to make felons out of law-abiding Americans. However I read Zorros post in which he echoed some of the very practices I despise,as being the work of higher ranking beaureaucrats in the agency.This made me consider that many of the rank and file members are,as are most LEOs I know,probably dedicated guys who want to keep the bad guys off the street(although I am sure there are some assholes among you, this is not meant to be insulting,it's just human nature,as I'm sure you already know) Anyway,it seems your bosses have run afoul of Chuck Grassley,who happens to be senator from my state.I was on the phone with him Wednesday night,but there was not time to discuss much other than State issues as impact our local Tea Party,and nothing was said about the gunrunner situation.My question to you is; Should I recommend to the Senator that he read this website so he can get a better grasp of how the street agents view the situation? I figured it might give him a little insight into the goings-on in the real world.In fact he stated on the phone,and I quote, "D.C. is an island surrounded by reality" so I do believe he can see both sides of the situation. I was going to fwd your site to him,but as a courtesy I decided to join up and ask you if you would like me to send the URL to him or not? Oh by the way,I am not a politician or some big-money contributor,I'm just a small time carpenter,who happens to be an active tea party patriot (but not a domestic terrorist as Janet Incompetano would describe us) Please let me know if you would want the site sent to Grassley, I will keep watching the forum for a reply.Keep up the good work,but please catch the real bad guys and leave the legal gun owners alone.We have enough to worry about with Barack and Hillary.

[Veritas]

Gotta say you guys are pretty lost thinking that you are saving ATF. You are not. John Boy is right about that. There are many of us in the field who question the wisdom of the topics posted on this website. You may not want to believe it but thats the reality. I will say I have laughed my ass of from time to time reading some of the stuff posted on this website. You know, the who's hitting on who stuff, rumors, etc. I find it rather entertaining, so thank you. So my question to the moderator/administrator is whats your endgame? What do you hope to accomplish? No disrespect to you but what has changed since you started this website? Well except for a lot of bad press nothing. NOTHING! I know it may be hard to accept but the only way to change things is to engage with the people you hammer mercilessly every day. All of your anger and frustration is never going to change things in a positive way. It just breeds more resentment on both sides and further degrades our agency culture. Nothing will get resolved, or improve in this environment. Do you really think Hoover, Chait or Melson are going to resign because of this website? Or take any advice from it? Thats truly "pissing in the wind". It might make you feel good right now but its not making anything better long term. Hey, you pay for this site out of your own pocket, have at it, hammer away. Feel better? I really don't think you will. Someday you may wake up and regret the unintended consequences of your actions. Hope you all will go out of pocket to help the new guys and gals that get RIF notices when the truth gets twisted and used to dismantle ATF. Thanks for allowing me to post this.

[Doc Holiday]

John Boy, I am not sure where you were going with the rambling email exchanges so they have been moved to Archives for eternity. Yes, there are civilians, inspectors, clerical staff who participate on CUATF. You are entitled to your opinion, but let's not forget who pays our salary. If it will put your mind to rest, I can assure you that YOUR PRIOR ONE CASE SUPERVISOR is not behind this website. That's a fact without even knowing who your former supervisor is. Secondly, virtually everyone on here (Including the civilians), has attempted to air these disputes with the last 3 Directors, 4 Deputy Directors and a litany of ADs on down. They have been approached formally, informally, through grievances, EEOC complaints, Ombudsman complaints, and directly to Mr. Melson. So please, share with all of the people so disgusted with the corruption at the highest levels of ATF HOW to address these matters. Keeping in mind when you do, that ATF and Main Justice have lied to a senior member of the Senate and withheld the requested documents. So I submit to you that WE ARE NOT HURTING ATF, We are its only hope. Agents Dodson, Dobyns, Andrades, Cefalu and others should be applauded for having the stones to tell the truth.

[Zorro]

Just my opinion, you are wasting alot of worry for nothing. The only thing that can destroy ATF is ATF. There always have been and always will be those who don't want you to exist and will make things up about you. Honesty will stop them just as it will hopefully stop corruption inside the agency - telling the truth will garner respect and trust with reasonable people. Simple - we don't lie for anyone, inside or outside the agency and let the chips fall where they may. No agenda, just the truth.

This isn't the first troubled agency I have worked for. Past experieince says corruption will never fix itself. It must be exposed and pressure brought from the outside.

[John Boy]

This is a recent email exchange. Please read it! I encourage all the ATF agents reading this to finally let their voice be heard. If you think this site is helping ATF, let them know. If you think this site is hurting all of ATF, let them know. I am not a big fan of a lot of what has gone on in ATF. I have been a victim of a horrible manager, but I think he is now behind most of the stuff on this site. I don't disagree things are screwed up. This is not the forum. We are feeding our enemies.

Webmaster Comment: To view the long and rambling series of emails that John Boy posted, click here.

[Retired and loving it]

John Boy, if history repeats itself, ATF will not be disbanded. Disbandment nearly happened in the 1980s (with nothing at all like Ruby Ridge, WACO, Phoenix, or Russell Wanderperv having occurred). But when the NRA realized that the firearms oversight was to go to the Secret Service, miraculously, ATF remained alive! Do you really think that today's NRA wants the firearms work to go to the FBI or some other agency? However, if the "leadership" of ATF continues to allow the current "stuff" to occur, maybe not even the power of the NRA can make ATF survive. What is necesaary is exactly what is being done by people who care and who have courage. Speak up about unfair and unjust activity.

[Historic Arms LLC]

John Boy, I respectfully disagree with you. This website is the only place that ATF employees and FFL's and the general public can interact without fear of reprisal. You speak of the general public being unable to understand the difference between ATF street agents and ATF management?...boy do you seriously underestimate our mental capacity. Len Savage

[Zorro]

If I have posted anything that is not true, please call me out on it. If anyone posts anything on here that is not true or out of context, point it out. I have asked for that more than once. There are outsiders who occasionally post here, but they are obvious to those who know them. True, a good number of people foolishly assume that if ATF is disbanded the GCA and NFA will cease to exist but they will get a rude awakening when they deal with another agency like the FBI (that turned out so well at Ruby and Waco). I believe in culling dirtbags from the population and have seen exactly that from the vast majority of field employees (during my real life experience working at ATF), but I have also seen lies by senior managers, data manipulation, double standards of conduct, as well as blatant abuse of taxpayer money while the national debt sets a new record every year (it doesn't belong to DC or ATF); there are people in HQ who devote their lives to trying to find ways to criminalize the law abiding or intentionally damage businesses who make a best effort to comply with the rules which I have seen get changed with no notice on a whim and am hoping for the Judiciary to call these people on it. Stay tuned to a civil suit that was recently filed against us. The depositions will read like Mad Magazine Spy vs Spy cartoon. I do not want the agency to go away, either, but am quite comfortable with its demise if it proves to be incurable. Some things are more important than our personal comfort, a concept mostly lost in federal government. The M-1s wouldn't be a scandal if the truth were told immediately - or even a reasonable lie. Gunwalker would be nothing of what it is if the truth were told immediately - or even a reasonable lie. Senator Grassley caught us right out of the gate - "that never happened".... oops; no one considered the man might know the answer before asking the question.... we are so smart. Line level employees who are capable of telling the truth are not allowed to have contact with congress or the media. What do you suggest?

[John Boy]

If you can't figure out who I am, then I am suspect of you. I can't see your real name. You have my email address for my account. It ain't rocket science. You are feeding our enemies. If your goal is to help the street agents, then I would ask you to keep this entire site reserved for only real ATF employees. Again, you are hurting the street agents. The general public doesn't see a difference between ATF agents and ATF management. Please stop! John Boy

[John Boy]

Gentlemen, Please stop. While I am sure some of you have legitimate issues with ATF management, your current behavior is seriously hurting the street agents in ATF. Your venting and twisting of facts, by current, retired and probably never was agents is going to destroy this agency and hurt the very people you claim to be trying to help. There are people out there who are using this bull as ammunition against all of ATF. I believe we have a lot of issues in ATF, but I have worked with the FBI and DEA. The only difference is we seem to be much better at eating our own. Some of the people using your stories wouldn't care if we cured cancer. They want us gone. It doesn't matter that in reality we do very little with FFLs or citizens. 99% of our investigations involve convicted felons and/or violent drug dealers. You are hurting the street agents. I have been to war with ATF management before, but I did it through the proper channels. I sometimes wonder if some of these posting are even coming from people ever associated with ATF. The only real comparison with Phoenix and Waco is again, we aren't getting in front of the camera and explaining ourselves. I will never forget Janet Reno taking responsibility. The only real mistake at Waco was lying about losing the element of surprise. Once we lied about that, no one believe anything we said. It's funny the media never reported how they were successfully sued by ATF agents for their conduct that day. A cameraman told a rural mail carrier that ATF and the National Guard was coming and there was going to be a be shoot out. Sadly, the rural mail carrier was the #2 of the Branch Davidians.(Koresh later executed him) Don't compare this to Waco when you don't know the facts. We need a man to get in front of the camera and explain our actions in Phoenix. For those of you who know the law, it isn't a crime for someone to go buy a gun if they are legally allowed. It isn't until you can prove the person purchasing the gun is making a straw purchase. Most of you can figure out who I am. Feel free to call me and I will be happy to speak with you. You are feeding lies and half truths to people who want us dissolved. Please stop. You aren't helping.

[just gotta shake your head]

Totally agree with "bythebook". Phoenix morale was rated low at the last office review and has not changed for the better. Has gotten worse. Especially when we are told how good management is, not to talk about about certain topics and if we do Newell made it known that we would be sent to "answer phones". He is unaware of what goes on in his Division. The ASACs, DOO and some of the SOOs & RACs are a "groupie" and need to be broken up. One does not do anything without the other. Let us for the good the of Phoenix Field Division, and all of ATF, get completely new management and get the ball back rolling and the show on the road.

[ProConfesso]

The Groom of the Stool will be irrelevant as a talking head in six more months - although, then again, you never know with the publics appetite for so called experts.

[ISpy]

Will someone PLEASE tell Jim Cavanaugh to SHUT his pie hole related to ATF. He is NOT an Agent. He is NOT our spokesperson. And he should NOT be allowed to run around the country and further our corrupt and unethical leadership, even though thats what he did when he WAS an ATF Agent. Stop making excuses Jim, thats why we are in this boat. Nobody cares what your opinion (or should we say Mr. Melson and Traver and Hoovers opinion is), especially when it comes out of your mouth like a ventriloquist DUMMY. STOP SPECULATING for the media. Let Mr. Melson et al. speak for themselves, they are big boys. AND GET A LIFE.

Cavanaugh was always impressed with himself.

[Iceman]

Will someone PLEASE tell Jim Cavanaugh to SHUT his pie hole related to ATF. He is NOT an Agent. He is NOT our spokesperson. And he should NOT be allowed to run around the country and further our corrupt and unethical leadership, even though thats what he did when he WAS an ATF Agent. Stop making excuses Jim, thats why we are in this boat. Nobody cares what your opinion (or should we say Mr. Melson and Traver and Hoovers opinion is), especially when it comes out of your mouth like a ventriloquist DUMMY. STOP SPECULATING for the media. Let Mr. Melson et al. speak for themselves, they are big boys. AND GET A LIFE.

[Iceman]

That is why ACCOUNTABILTY is the KEY. Put Melson et al under oath. And demote, transfer, fire or indict as appropriate. The media needs to dig hard. I see the media asking for help but they are only TAKING the grounders re: Fast and Furious. The writing has been on the wall for years Follow the failed programs. Follow the public exposure of the abuses against its own. And definitely follow the managers who's outrageous conduct by ANT standard has gone ignored. The story is THAT ALL OF THIS COULD/SHOULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED.

I remember back when Bill Clinton got all wrapped up in "it depends on what the definition of is, is." The DEA came out with a memo to its agents ordering them not to engage in this lawyer double talk.
Flash forward to ATF, and we have a regime that engages in lawyer double-talk, lawyer-client privilege, plausible deniability and all sorts of sneaky, underhanded tactics that should be despised by professionals.
The thing is, people in the upper ranks of ATF have nothing to fear. If ATF were to disappear overnight, Mr. Melson would either find himself back at Main DoJ, or he would be at Georgetown University teaching a law school class on forensic evidence and laboratories, and making $300,000 a year. Chait, Hoover, Riehl and the rest of them would either worm themselves into another SES slot at another agency or would get a contractor position making $250,000 a year. Only difference is that they would get to stay domestic and not have to go to Iraq like Tommy Stanky.
Meanwhile, the rank and file would all be caught running around trying to find jobs in an economy with 10% unemployment.
The bosses have nothing to lose. We have everything to lose.

[abteilung]

I remember back when Bill Clinton got all wrapped up in "it depends on what the definition of is, is." The DEA came out with a memo to its agents ordering them not to engage in this lawyer double talk. Flash forward to ATF, and we have a regime that engages in lawyer double-talk, lawyer-client privilege, plausible deniability and all sorts of sneaky, underhanded tactics that should be despised by professionals. The thing is, people in the upper ranks of ATF have nothing to fear. If ATF were to disappear overnight, Mr. Melson would either find himself back at Main DoJ, or he would be at Georgetown University teaching a law school class on forensic evidence and laboratories, and making $300,000 a year. Chait, Hoover, Riehl and the rest of them would either worm themselves into another SES slot at another agency or would get a contractor position making $250,000 a year. Only difference is that they would get to stay domestic and not have to go to Iraq like Tommy Stanky. Meanwhile, the rank and file would all be caught running around trying to find jobs in an economy with 10% unemployment. The bosses have nothing to lose. We have everything to lose.

[Doc Holiday]

Mr. Melson, do not think Senator Grassley is not aware that you had a staff attorney respond on your behalf so you could personally deny lying when you are put under oath. Stop playing lawyer games. You denied that you tolerate retaliation yet Gillette and Newell are still in place. No investigation regarding the practice of letting hundreds of straw purchases heading for Mexico, go unchallenged. Isn't that like flooding DC with heroin so you can follow the overdoses to determine trafficking trends? How do you look in the Mirror every morning KNOWING what you are doing to Agent Terrys family by your attempt to protect your bosses. Unlike you sir, Agent Brian Terry was ONE OF OURS. We are watching and so is the entire country. Continued support of unethical, illegal, and immoral practices against those who come forward to do the right thing will not be tolerated. How is it our AD of Intelligence for almost the entire Fast and Furious case could not answer Sen. Grassleys questions from personal knowledge? Who else in this entire Bureau should know more about this case? Why not turn over the documents? If you have nothing to hide, why fight so hard to hide it? This is what happens when you act more like a lawyer than a law enforcement official. Time for a little soul searching. If you, Hoover, Chait, Martin, Newell, McDermond and Gillette can even fathom continuing these lies, maybe its time to consider leaving quietly. Remember Martin, Chait, Hoover et al, you have the same obligation to "Report" gross mismanagement as the field does. Sitting quietly hoping Mr. Grassley OR the OIG is just going to go away, is probably not a good strategy. How is SAC Traver sitting so silent? You are the nominee. If you pretend you don't know, you have no business being our director. If you are not as outraged as the rest of the LE community, you don't deserve to be our Director. If you are going to be a politician, you don't deserve to be our Director. We are law enforcement and as such "A" political. WE don't manipulate firearms laws with false data as in the lawful imports or firearms. Thatis why we are being sued and the entire firearms industry and the American public do not TRUST us.