229 replies to this topic

[Veritas]

IKE: My understanding of is that the funding that supplies those give aways comes either from the program direct budget where monies are appropriated for such purchases or from the general DOJ asset forfeiture account. When ATF/DEA/FBI/USMS seize assets from criminals they are placed in this general fund which the contributing agencies can utilize to pay for training, contractors, investigative expenses, etc. Just wanted to correct something that I stated before about firearm tracing. I stated e-trace provided the investigator with last known possessor. What I should have said was that e-trace provides that last "over the counter purchaser". I still think that firearm tracing is a great tool for federal, state and local police investigators. It has helped me in the past and continues to identify potential firearm traffickers.

[GoodWorker]

You missed one, the guy in Oklahoma, the Guy in Cleveland and the guy in Va. Are they truly going to allow Billy Hoover to have a field division after, well, after ALL of this?

Thanks Doc. I did not know about the guy in OK.

[Ike]

I'm just curious.... How is it that ATF has has been able to allocate taxpayer funds to purchase ATF advertising material? For example, ATF key rings and ATF Pens passed out freely at gunshows, little ATF notebooks, and those infamous "Always Think Forfeiture" Leatherman tool kits? What other advertising gimmicks has ATF purchased? Seems to me these are a total waste of taxpayer money! Perhaps Congress ought to take a close look?

[Doc Holiday]

You missed one, the guy in Oklahoma, the Guy in Cleveland and the guy in Va. Are they truly going to allow Billy Hoover to have a field division after, well, after ALL of this?

In the last six months, two ATF GS-13s have been indicted in separate incidents. I believe one has plead guilty and nothing has been proven in the second case. It is unfortunate IF both are guilty. I would like to know why the USAO around the country can prosecute GS-13s and give a pass to so many GS-14s and above who have also allegedly violated federal laws such as retaliation, false official statements, official misconduct, discrimination, and others?

[GoodWorker]

This post could go here in "Trimming the Pork" or Budget Cuts or Professionalism in ATF or just about anywhere. Just another example of waste, fraud and abuse. Most ATF managers on both sides of house-regulatory and criminal-act as though the taxpayers money is their own petty cash fund. Recently, it has been reported by an area supervisor under his chain of command, that DAD Harry McCabe, the top executive in the Industry Operations side, was on a "detail" March 2011 in Nashville, TN. Funny thing-Nashville, TN is where McCabe come from. I guess he needed to go back home for some reason. Why not stay save the annual leave and call it a detail. That way he could travel on the taxpayers dime and get per diem-probably to sleep in his own bed at his own home. This is just ridiculous. A Deputy Assistant Director doesn't have a need to be on a detail. Especially in their home city. Congressman Issa and Senator Grassley-look into this. Should be easy to prove-just subpoena the records. This isn't a surprise to ATF employees-managers get all the perks and we all pay for it. It has been reported her before about other managers using government cars to travel at will even on vacation to see family. It needs to stop and those that have been a part of the waste, fraud and abuse need to be held accountable and repay the taxpayers.

In the last six months, two ATF GS-13s have been indicted in separate incidents. I believe one has plead guilty and nothing has been proven in the second case. It is unfortunate IF both are guilty. I would like to know why the USAO around the country can prosecute GS-13s and give a pass to so many GS-14s and above who have also allegedly violated federal laws such as retaliation, false official statements, official misconduct, discrimination, and others?

[Getagrip]

This post could go here in "Trimming the Pork" or Budget Cuts or Professionalism in ATF or just about anywhere. Just another example of waste, fraud and abuse. Most ATF managers on both sides of house-regulatory and criminal-act as though the taxpayers money is their own petty cash fund. Recently, it has been reported by an area supervisor under his chain of command, that DAD Harry McCabe, the top executive in the Industry Operations side, was on a "detail" March 2011 in Nashville, TN. Funny thing-Nashville, TN is where McCabe come from. I guess he needed to go back home for some reason. Why not stay save the annual leave and call it a detail. That way he could travel on the taxpayers dime and get per diem-probably to sleep in his own bed at his own home. This is just ridiculous. A Deputy Assistant Director doesn't have a need to be on a detail. Especially in their home city. Congressman Issa and Senator Grassley-look into this. Should be easy to prove-just subpoena the records. This isn't a surprise to ATF employees-managers get all the perks and we all pay for it. It has been reported her before about other managers using government cars to travel at will even on vacation to see family. It needs to stop and those that have been a part of the waste, fraud and abuse need to be held accountable and repay the taxpayers.

[Winston Smith]

Guys, Thank you for sharing all these stories and information. I see that the discussion about cutting out unnecessary expenses/programs seems to have been shelved for now. Some of you guys have pointed out the sad situation our agency created by promoting inexperienced and untrained leadership. What about this so-called "agent plan" devised by Gant (I think) and others? Has anyone seen that? Feedback? What other constructive changes can be made that would address your concerns? Do we promote people too soon to Group Supv or ASAC levels? Should the Mgt. Assessment Center continue or should some other system for promotions be devised?

[apostate]

Top companies that support military veterans and I do not see ATF on the list. Oh that's righ ATF shut military veterans out of the hiring process. I know that FBI and DHS hire vets but ATF does not. http://jobs.aol.com/...rs-of-veterans/

[BeenThereDoneThat]

$50,000.00 for a SAC meeting at Headquarters! I tried (and failed) to get 4 new tires to replace the almost bald tires on my government car that has almost 100,000 miles on it! Dont get me wrong, I'm thankful I have a government car to drive. But believe me, it's "pray and drive" 24/7.

And why do we have so many Intelligence Research Specialists (IRS) in our Divisions? Why do we need that many people, when our agency does mostly "adoptive" "roadkill" cases? Do we really need "flow charts" for that? Do we really need "flow charts" for NICS cases? Remember 20 years ago when there were only about 10 people in each Division office, who supported about 2500 agents, and things ran smoothly? Now we have many, MANY more. But then again, Division has to support many MANY more agents...Wait a minute, we still only have 2500 agents (or less)!!! Never mind!

Can anyone tell me how many "non adoptive" "self initiated" cases ATF does nationwide in a year? I'm not talking about showing up at a search warrant and calling it "self initiated". I'm talking about full fledged, came out of an ATF agents mind, cases? Or is it impossible to determine that, because of all the loop holes defining what a "self initiated" case is, for (you guessed it) stat purposes.

Can ATF really justify agents having their own vehicles, to do mainly "road kill" cases? Is there anyway of determining how many "duty agent" calls we get, to justify take home cars? If we can, great.

QUESTIONS FOR HEADQUARTERS
1. Does ATF really need to deceive Washington D.C. and the taxpayers with "made up" statistics to survive?
2. Do you really need to inflate gun seizures, allow guns into Mexico, and falsify statistics to justify our existence?
3. Do you really need to lie to the American public, and our political leaders to be an agency?
4. Do you really need to lie and intimidate agents to prove your importance?

If you answered "yes" to one of these questions, then we have a huge problem. If you answered "yes" to more than one, we have an emergency. If you answered "yes" to all of these questions, then we have no agency!

Very poignantly stated!!!

I believe ATF began its descent when middle and upper management became dedicated to the people that promoted them -- instead of dedicated to the job. Once that happened, there was no way for the "worker bees" to overcome the disability of management's lack of vision and loss of purpose.

As a taxpayer, I am outraged by the lack of accountibility that has continued -- at the cost of increased waste of tax dollars, failure to serve and protect, and loss of lives.

I was recently appalled when an ATF recruiter told me that they did not care if ATF was going down the crapper, because they were going to get about $6,000 a month retirement. When I asked if they felt a need to get involved in making the Agency more effective, they said that they only care about themself, and they no longer cared about the work. Well, it made me wonder what kind of people are being hired nowadays. When I see someone in a high position, that they OBVIOUSLY are not qualified or competent to occupy, I wonder who they sold their soul to get/keep that position.

As an American, I cannot tolerate this trend -- a lack of transparency and lack of accountibility.

[Doc Holiday]

Well said Once Proud. Thank you for not inserting ALL of the " Whys". But let me go ahead and and a few.

Why are all of our SACs SES' bosses? Do they have more authority as such? Are they more effective as an SES than a GS-15? OR does it just jump THEIR retirement benefits and cost the Bureau millions with no return for the $$$$$$$$

Why are so many Special Agents assigned to dutys which produce absolutely NO investigations as a full time assignment? Remember when we had collateral duties and still made cases?

The battle cry of ATF 5th floor is "so much of our budget goes to salaries". DUH. Let me repeat that DUH!!!!!!!! How many GS 14 and 15 Special Agents are shuffling paper back and forth at HQ and not accomplishing one thing. How many man hours are spent on ongoing and totally unecessary employee disputes? We have a full ATF academy staff with NO classes scheduled. We run SRTs alll over the country to execute arrests, cover for deals, and search warrants. Hmmmmmm Isnt that in a Special Agents job description?

Once again, we could go on and on but at the end of the day, ATF management is broken and ineffective. When we fix that, we fix our Bureau.
May God Bless the efforts of Senator Grassley and Chairman Issa.

$50,000.00 for a SAC meeting at Headquarters! I tried (and failed) to get 4 new tires to replace the almost bald tires on my government car that has almost 100,000 miles on it! Dont get me wrong, I'm thankful I have a government car to drive. But believe me, it's "pray and drive" 24/7.

And why do we have so many Intelligence Research Specialists (IRS) in our Divisions? Why do we need that many people, when our agency does mostly "adoptive" "roadkill" cases? Do we really need "flow charts" for that? Do we really need "flow charts" for NICS cases? Remember 20 years ago when there were only about 10 people in each Division office, who supported about 2500 agents, and things ran smoothly? Now we have many, MANY more. But then again, Division has to support many MANY more agents...Wait a minute, we still only have 2500 agents (or less)!!! Never mind!

Can anyone tell me how many "non adoptive" "self initiated" cases ATF does nationwide in a year? I'm not talking about showing up at a search warrant and calling it "self initiated". I'm talking about full fledged, came out of an ATF agents mind, cases? Or is it impossible to determine that, because of all the loop holes defining what a "self initiated" case is, for (you guessed it) stat purposes.

Can ATF really justify agents having their own vehicles, to do mainly "road kill" cases? Is there anyway of determining how many "duty agent" calls we get, to justify take home cars? If we can, great.

QUESTIONS FOR HEADQUARTERS
1. Does ATF really need to deceive Washington D.C. and the taxpayers with "made up" statistics to survive?
2. Do you really need to inflate gun seizures, allow guns into Mexico, and falsify statistics to justify our existence?
3. Do you really need to lie to the American public, and our political leaders to be an agency?
4. Do you really need to lie and intimidate agents to prove your importance?

If you answered "yes" to one of these questions, then we have a huge problem. If you answered "yes" to more than one, we have an emergency. If you answered "yes" to all of these questions, then we have no agency!

[Doc Holiday]

I have been around this outfit a day or two. At no time in our history, EVER, has our credibility been more comprimised, our relationship with the industry been more strained and the faith and support of the American people been more in question. What I do KNOW, is that the firearms industry is NOT the enemy, CRIMINALS are. We used to have to do monitored investigations when it involved FFL's because we had abused our authority and because the 2nd amendmant might very well be the strongest amendment in our constitution after the 1st. After decades of hard work and fair treatment, we earned the respect of the industry. I have only crossed paths over Many many yrs with literally a hand full of corrupt FFLs. The overwhelming majority want what we want. I have made so many cases with the assistance of honest FFls. They want the bad ones out. This long gun Multiple sales foolish is inexperienced knee jerk panic because they (ATF SENIOR MANAGERS) can't figure out how to slow guns to Mexico. These reports will inundate an already overwhelmed Regulatory arm of ATF. The information will never be processed in time to be of any use. AND for the record,the FFLs dont have to be forced to help, they already do it. ATF NEEDS to stop blaming everybody else including FFLs, weak laws, low budgets. We have exactly the same number of agents we had 20 yrs ago, 4 times the budget and are making half the cases. GROSS MISMANAGEMENT.

A quick message inspired by Winston Smith. In a recent posting I lost my bearing and mentioned names. I regret that very much. In a moment of bitter frustration I lost the high ground. I have taken the position (on numerous postings) that this "movement" is about the reform of a struggling and mismanaged law enforcement agency. I once told a SAC many years ago that our then field division had become like the Palestinian issue: "the field" and "management" had retreated to their corners and no one would come to the table. Frankly that remark probably ended any hopes for professional advancement as the SAC felt is was "us versus them" and I had just identified myself as one of "them". I think its time for everyone to "come to the table" and workout what's best for this magnificent country, this relevant mission and this proud and relevant organization. I have read recent remarks by angry "outside" bloggers...and I too respect their opinion as fellow Americans...but you can't abolish a Federal law enforcement agency charged with enforcing the Federal gun laws without abolishing the Federal gun laws. Anyone's desire to abolish or reform the gun laws is a whole different subject for a whole different website. For now I believe I believe we must concentrate on corrective action and improving the efficiency and effectiveness of this incredibly resilient and adaptable organziation. Hey, I would like to work for an agency that the bad guys are terrified of...and the Gun Rights community would like to befriend (perhaps with the sentiment that ATF is NOT anti-gun but anti misuse of guns). As I eluded to in a past blog, reform is not an impossible dream, but an American ideal. History has proven that Americans learn from mistakes and overcome. Thank you Winston Smith, for behaving like a leader. I will try to do the same.

[Zorro]

However this Fast and Furious thing sorts itself out, a new era of befriending and fair partnership is a worthy goal.... (but I'm not holding my breath!)

Don't give up hope. Although it has recently taken a hit, such a relationship was being fostered by people on both sides. We still have some dionsaurs who see the industry and owners as the enemy who needs to be out debated and out regulated at all cost, but they really are the exception rather than the rule. Hopefully after some cleansing it will pick up again.

Something else you won't read much about on the ever reliable internet is that FFL holders help create some excellent cases. It's only common sense; you know your customer base better than we do and most dealers don't want some thug shooting their kid any more than someone else's. Peelian Principles still apply; any LE agency is pretty much moot without support.

[ProConfesso]

What next? Universal Studios suing ATF management for copyright infringement over the use of their name. The movie company doesn't want their name sullied.

[Ike]

Cool Hand: Inspired words. It's a shame ATF management doesn't seem to have aspirations in that direction. As an interested outsider, I'm trying to see both sides. We should all be in partnership to prevent bad guys from getting guns! There are many folks who believe gun dealers intentionally sell to bad guys, but dealers I know don't want a criminal gun stuck in their ribs when they're closing up shop - or walking down the street! However this Fast and Furious thing sorts itself out, a new era of befriending and fair partnership is a worthy goal.... (but I'm not holding my breath!)

[Cool Hand]

A quick message inspired by Winston Smith. In a recent posting I lost my bearing and mentioned names. I regret that very much. In a moment of bitter frustration I lost the high ground. I have taken the position (on numerous postings) that this "movement" is about the reform of a struggling and mismanaged law enforcement agency. I once told a SAC many years ago that our then field division had become like the Palestinian issue: "the field" and "management" had retreated to their corners and no one would come to the table. Frankly that remark probably ended any hopes for professional advancement as the SAC felt is was "us versus them" and I had just identified myself as one of "them". I think its time for everyone to "come to the table" and workout what's best for this magnificent country, this relevant mission and this proud and relevant organization. I have read recent remarks by angry "outside" bloggers...and I too respect their opinion as fellow Americans...but you can't abolish a Federal law enforcement agency charged with enforcing the Federal gun laws without abolishing the Federal gun laws. Anyone's desire to abolish or reform the gun laws is a whole different subject for a whole different website. For now I believe I believe we must concentrate on corrective action and improving the efficiency and effectiveness of this incredibly resilient and adaptable organziation. Hey, I would like to work for an agency that the bad guys are terrified of...and the Gun Rights community would like to befriend (perhaps with the sentiment that ATF is NOT anti-gun but anti misuse of guns). As I eluded to in a past blog, reform is not an impossible dream, but an American ideal. History has proven that Americans learn from mistakes and overcome. Thank you Winston Smith, for behaving like a leader. I will try to do the same.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

This why I love ATF. All of you are showing exactly why it is insane for Mr. Melson not to be including you in policy decisions. EXCELLENT ideas and they will all work. KEEP EM COMING, MR. MELSON READS THIS.

[Zorro]

Dang Winston,

Consider me taken to the wood shed. You are quite right - if I find it repulsive that a few ethically challenged individuals are "demanding" taxpayer financed goodies and threatening to get even with whitsleblowers that they believe exposed them, it's really a personal problem and not fodder for this board. I need to get a dose of Joe Friday and stick to the facts.

Yes, I get angry occasionally and from now on I will try to stick to my silly cartoon and movie clip posts in an effort to keep it light here.

I'll rephrase:

Winston, while I wish you the best in your endeavor and applaud you bringing it up, you have a tough nut to crack regarding vehicle extravance. As multiple IG letters bear out earlier in this thread, there appears to be an ingrained entitlement culture within the agency and based on other posts elewhere on this board, it is not limited to agents.

Folks, just because I bust on a crooked agent it does not mean I hate all agents. ATF is comprised predominantly of agents. It will happen. I get irate at the sense of entitlement, arrogance, and condascencion (all personal choices, not brought on by any one job description) - from ANYONE in government. We are all replaceable. If we go away tomorrow, the sun will still rise and set. Most of us live pretty well on the backs of others and the minimum we should do (in my personal opinion) is tell the truth and utilize frugality in burning their hard earned money.

[abteilung]

*Make one National SRT for the "really big" operations, and create Divisional SRT's that operate on a PT basis. And not every Division should have its own SRT. Have Newark share one with NYC; have Baltimore and DC share; have Dallas and Houston share. *Just take a look at the recent Fox News video on the TSA explosive detection dogs, and see the future: the end of the ATF explosives canine program. *NFORCE is a tool; a means to an end. Not an end in itself. *One division got along just fine with the ASAC as the PIO until it was time to transfer in someone's buddy and put them in the PIO slot. Does ATF really generate enough activity to warrant a full-time GS-13 PIO? The press release for an NRT call-out is boiler-plate; a GS-5 could issue that. And press releases for big arrests/major convictions are done by the local USAO. Now isn't the ATF PIO a duplication of effort? We're not a big enough agency to justify "speciality" agents who produce no cases. *Most local/state fire marshal unit have come to the conclusion that transporting arson debris in the same passenger compartment as the passengers is a health risk. However, I will agree that ATF doesn't need behemoths with super-sized suspension, armor-plated cargo beds [almost just joking] and a front end winch. No more explosive K9/CES's, no more need for the massive k9 vehicles. For other CES's, a standard pick-up in which day boxes can fit in the capped-off cargo bed. *Give the DTA's and FIC's a standard-sized pick up or mid-sized SUV [hybrids while you're at it] with towing capability. There's no need to drive something super-sized 220 days a year that's really only needed four to 12 times a year. *DOO's, SOO's, Intel Officers and the Intel Supervisor, if they can't show that they have responded to ANY scene more than once a month in the past year, take away their take-homes. Have a pool car or two for them to use during the day. And make it a two-door hybrid. *SACs and ASACs really don't need to impress anyone by driving up to a scene in a 300 or a Marquis or any luxury class car. Give them hybrids too. No one at a major scene really cares if the SAC isn't driving a Marquis. Our counterparts in other federal agencies and with the state and local agencies don't even KNOW who are SACs are.

[Winston Smith]

Zorro,
You did exactly what I hoped you wouldn't do. You seem very angry as well. With respect to the need for a G-ride, you are mistaken. Congress has approved the use of take home cars for those law enforcement personnel who meet certain criteria. Whether you or I approve is irrelevant. If you restructure you argument to explain why those 1811 personnel @ Martinsburg do not need a take home G-ride, perhaps I would take you seriously. Also, please change your tone!

All I want to do is encourage productive thought and discussion with respect to trimming unnecessary expenditures in our agency, and NOT blast anyone with personal attacks. I hope I haven't come to the wrong place. If this is the best that users here can do, its no wonder the Director, Members of Congress, or other important persons avoid this website. I expect more professional comments from my colleagues.

Winston - if you haven't perused this entire thread, please do. There is some excellent insight to the entitlement cultutre that exists in the agency concerning vehicles which was provided to me by a whistleblower with first hand knowledge; people who have absolutely no need of a taxpayer funded car would much rather see people get a RIF notice than to pay for their own gasoline like the lowly taxpayers do. Generally, they are very well paid, too. Average taxpayer is making just about 50K/yr while the entitlement class in ATF is pulling 125-175. The world is upside down - everyone sees the waste and misappropriation, but no one has the sand to say "enough".

For those of you in Martinsburg that are threatening to quit if you have to pay your own way to the office: I DARE YOU. Go find a better milking system than ATF has provided you. Do nothing for 150k/yr AND get a free car. Better yet, try your hand in the private sector where you might actually have to produce something before you get paid. You are replacable and your replacement will likely be much more efficient and cost-effective. Oh, and maybe said replacement won't stand in the hall every day watching the female contractors pass by at shift change. Oops - did I let that slip?

ANY office worker - REGARDLESS OF PAY GRADE OR JOB DESCRIPTION should not have a G-car unless they are in travel status 12-15,000 miles per year (or whatever the breaking point of mileage reimbursement is vs a GSA lease). PERIOD. The entire point of government cars is cost-efficiency, NOT status symbols for needy egos. If you want to be reminded of how great and invaluable you are, call home to Mom - it's her job and she won't expect some stranger to give her money for it.

Our best hope is that when the hearings begin, ALL aspects of this sick, twisted internal culture are examined. It is this culture that allows all these incredible acts to occur with no one saying "stop". If it is not exposed and dealt with harshly, the entire cycle will repeat itself.

[Zorro]

Winston - if you haven't perused this entire thread, please do. There is some excellent insight to the entitlement cultutre that exists in the agency concerning vehicles which was provided to me by a whistleblower with first hand knowledge; people who have absolutely no need of a taxpayer funded car would much rather see people get a RIF notice than to pay for their own gasoline like the lowly taxpayers do. Generally, they are very well paid, too. Average taxpayer is making just about 50K/yr while the entitlement class in ATF is pulling 125-175. The world is upside down - everyone sees the waste and misappropriation, but no one has the sand to say "enough".

For those of you in Martinsburg that are threatening to quit if you have to pay your own way to the office: I DARE YOU. Go find a better milking system than ATF has provided you. Do nothing for 150k/yr AND get a free car. Better yet, try your hand in the private sector where you might actually have to produce something before you get paid. You are replacable and your replacement will likely be much more efficient and cost-effective. Oh, and maybe said replacement won't stand in the hall every day watching the female contractors pass by at shift change. Oops - did I let that slip?

ANY office worker - REGARDLESS OF PAY GRADE OR JOB DESCRIPTION should not have a G-car unless they are in travel status 12-15,000 miles per year (or whatever the breaking point of mileage reimbursement is vs a GSA lease). PERIOD. The entire point of government cars is cost-efficiency, NOT status symbols for needy egos. If you want to be reminded of how great and invaluable you are, call home to Mom - it's her job and she won't expect some stranger to give her money for it.

Our best hope is that when the hearings begin, ALL aspects of this sick, twisted internal culture are examined. It is this culture that allows all these incredible acts to occur with no one saying "stop". If it is not exposed and dealt with harshly, the entire cycle will repeat itself.

[Winston Smith]

Let's move forward to a less evil topic, such as what areas of our budget can we afford to "trim" some fat from? Do we need a full time SRT that travels extensively? Would we be better served by having Divisional SRT's to cut down on travel expenses? Pro's/Con's. Do we need to have a Canine Program? Is this a duplication of services that other entities can provide cheaper and more efficiently? Pro's/Con's. Should we redesign our Inspection Process to examine all program's for efficiency, effectiveness, staffing needs, and more, instead of the current practice of Inspectors just sighting in on NFORCE deficiencies and findings that are truly irrelevant/insignificant in terms of whether a case was fully investigated or prosecuted? What are some failings of the current Inspection Process? Public Affairs - should the PIO function become an ASAC collateral duty, thus returning a GS-13 agent to the field? Why can't ASAC's absorb this function? Vehicles - why are we still spending enormous amounts on purchasing specialty trucks for our Arson groups? Is this truly necessary? Are there any alternatives such as letting CFI's and CES's use a standard SUV? Does each DTA or F/A instructor need a full size SUV such as a Suburban for a take home? Could each Division have a dedicated vehicle that the DTA or FI uses only on the day of qualifications or enforcement ops? Why not purchase a subcompact for the DTA since he or she is not working active cases, and is typically on SRT travel anyway. Should the DOO and SOO be given subcompacts as commuter cars since they do not respond to call outs or work active cases? Would the fuel cost savings outweigh any potential down side? These are just a few examples. Most of you probably have ideas on what areas can sustain cuts, be restructured or eliminated without missing a beat. "I just saying" let's be productive with a healthy discussion.

[Thor God of Thunder]

Our rank and file is sickened by our leaderships conduct before,during and after the actions leading up to Brian Terrys death. We know it could have been one of our Agents. Many agents involved, have and will continue to come forward to ensure the truth is known and perhaps prevent future tragedies. All that can be done at this point, is to hold those who planned, implemented and approved this grandstanding, accountable.

Off with their heads!

[Cowboy Dan]

You can't control the number of witnesses on a conference call.... I'm just sayin'.....

That was my thought. You also can't control someone perhaps making a record of the video. I'm sure ATF has people tech-savvy enough to make that happen. Hell, even I can (or could, many years ago) tap a telephone line.

I hope someone fails to sweep the room for bugs before they have their meeting. Maybe there will be a record kept after all. We can hope, right?

[Zorro]

24 SACs to DC for 3 days to be briefed on what we already know. Wouldnt want to use tele conference or video conference. Lets spend 50-60 K to try and get all SACs onboard. This is pathetic and will never stop until we get new leadership.

You can't control the number of witnesses on a conference call.... I'm just sayin'.....

[Doc Holiday]

24 SACs to DC for 3 days to be briefed on what we already know. Wouldnt want to use tele conference or video conference. Lets spend 50-60 K to try and get all SACs onboard. This is pathetic and will never stop until we get new leadership.

[Doc Holiday]

There are very few Ron Nobles left in government service. Is there ANYTHING about the current ATF leadership that suggests that anyone is going to be accountable or take responsibility? Martin leaked to the media to cut away from Hoover and crew. Billy allowed and participated in the ongoing coverup,(as evidenced by recently released emails), Thommason is ONLY concerned with spin and defending undefensible actions, the entire Chief Counsels Office has lost sight of integrity, Chait can remember first IF, and then WHEN, he authorized the illfated plan. Mr. Melson says theres nothing to see here folks, while refusing congressional requests, Traver is silent and unaware hoping to claim, I wasnt aware and not on my watch. Stop with the "Open and ongoing investigation", they were punk ass straw purchasers. This defense hasnt stopped us from grandstanding every other open "Vang Pao",or "Black Biscuit" case when it suited us. Stop with the smoke and mirrors, nobody is buying it. You are letting Eric Holder and DOJ embarrass us.This is what happens when Law Enforcement officials try to be politicans instead of law enforcement Officers. Two U.S. Agents are dead. DO THE RIGHT THING.

Ron Noble would make an outstanding director. After he left the Department of the Treasury, served as Secretariat General of Interpol, he still remains a highly intelligent leader with a true sense of purpose. He is a rare leader that has retained his integrity and truly cares about justice.

I spoke to him when he was investigating Waco, and he was totally dedicated to finding the truth, dealing with the situation, and correcting the problems. He was bold, fearless and focussed. Wouldn't someone like Noble be a breath of fresh air?

[BeenThereDoneThat]

Ron Noble would make an outstanding director. After he left the Department of the Treasury, served as Secretariat General of Interpol, he still remains a highly intelligent leader with a true sense of purpose. He is a rare leader that has retained his integrity and truly cares about justice. I spoke to him when he was investigating Waco, and he was totally dedicated to finding the truth, dealing with the situation, and correcting the problems. He was bold, fearless and focussed. Wouldn't someone like Noble be a breath of fresh air?

[ISpy]

I nominate Noble for Director. A real Stand up guy.

[Retired and loving it]

As Vince said ATF street agents are very very upset over the death of PA Terry. Many ATF S/A's are former Border Patrol. PA Terry and his family are in our prayers. Unfortunately the cannabalistic management in ATF has a long and sordid history of holding the lives and saftey of agents in such little regard. See Waco for one example. We are hoping the culture will change.

At least after Waco, we had a department level person (Treasury Assistant Secretary Ron Noble) who took decisive corrective action. Nothing like that seems to be coming from Holder and his underlings in the so-called Department of Justice. They just seem to be doing the same as ATF management by circling the wagons and clamming up.

Maybe Ron Noble should be asked to come back from Interpol to serve on (or lead) a group to investigate what has really taken place with Project Gunrunner. At least he has shown that he has the stomach and the resolve to do what may need to be done.

[apostate]

As Vince said ATF street agents are very very upset over the death of PA Terry. Many ATF S/A's are former Border Patrol. PA Terry and his family are in our prayers. Unfortunately the cannabalistic management in ATF has a long and sordid history of holding the lives and saftey of agents in such little regard. See Waco for one example. We are hoping the culture will change.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Our rank and file is sickened by our leaderships conduct before,during and after the actions leading up to Brian Terrys death. We know it could have been one of our Agents. Many agents involved, have and will continue to come forward to ensure the truth is known and perhaps prevent future tragedies. All that can be done at this point, is to hold those who planned, implemented and approved this grandstanding, accountable.

[SDUSBP]

You need to add one more thing to that list. The murder of my fellow PA., Brian A. Terry. HONORFIRST

[Oldpuppymax]

If Traver actually does become a recess appointment, the question has to be will Republicans expose him for what he is and castigate Hussein for appointing him? Or will they, as limp-wristed Republicans so often do, simply forget the whole thing, not wanting to annoy the NY Times!

[1desertrat]

I spoke today with an insider who has spent a lot of time on the Hill and is pretty well informed. In his judgment, not only will Traver NOT get the job, he will be unlikely to make it to hearings. Therefore, those in HQ promoting how "tight" they are with Traver may be in for an awakening.

[Doc Holiday]

OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!! I'm running out of adjectives. I feel like I walked thru the looking glass. Word is they are going to try and do a recess appointment of Traver. Seriously? In the middle of this when he can't be found, won't grant an interview or weigh-in, and they think he has the tools to save this Bureau? So much for the Presidents transparency, if that happens. He'll be crushed, we'll be crushed and the Bureau will be crushed. I hope Senator Grassley and Congressman Issa will not stand for this.

[Doc Holiday]

Chairman Issa is seeking people willing to come forward with significant example of managerment abuses, unthical practices, violations of policies, rules or law. His website has a contact us drop down. On there is a portal which will allow you to make a brief synopsis of your information. Now is the time to come forward and fix this Bureau so we can get back to what be do. Interdict illegal guns and criminals who posses and use them. If yu are uncomfortable coming forward,( for obvious reasons that Mr. Melson says dont exist), then send a back channel message to me or the webmaster and we will forward or give you guidance. Cefalu, Andrade Dodson and Dobson and the rest of those guys,did a good job at great personal expense, but we may now get a say so in the future and direction of OUR Bureau.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

THE FOLLOWING WAS SENT TO CHAIRMAN ISSA, TODAY
It has been posted on multiple websites, HOWEVER, it should be noted this letter was sent and resent OVER THE PAST 2 YEARS,in an effort to prevent such scenarios as "Project Gunwalker".

THE FOLLOWING LETTER WAS SENT CERTIFIED MAIL TO CHAIRMAN LEAHY, MEMBERS OF THE JUDICIARY, SENATOR DIANNE FEINSTEIN, SENATOR BARBARA BOXER, ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER AND BOTH ACTING DIRECTORS MIKE SULLIVAN AND KEN MELSON.

NO ACTION WAS TAKEN, EVEN AFTER FOLLOWUP AND DOCUMENTATION WAS PROVIDED. "THIS" IS WHY WE ARE IN THE MESS WE ARE IN, PURE AND SIMPLE. NO OVERSIGHT NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

This letter was sent initially over two years ago.

Judiciary Committee Members

President Obama, a civil rights attorney and constitutional law professor, has stated his commitment to justice, equality, transparency and enforcement of civil rights laws for every human being. He has committed to overhauling the Justice Department. However, we as members of the elite Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives are gravely concerned about the Departments failure to hold senior managers within our great Bureau accountable. We are further concerned that such apathy in the administration of our great Bureau is and continues to negatively impact our ability to ensure public safety and has created an environment which has condoned massive waste, fraud and abuse.

The following are examples of practices which have now divided this Bureau and are the motivation for this direct action:

Multiple findings of discrimination against senior ATF managers which have gone completely undisciplined or disciplined in a manner not consistent with the standards applied to the line agents and employees.

False documents and testimony submitted by or ignored/supported by ATF Chief Counsel’s office to include falsification of evidence and perjury. Failing to comply with Open Records Act and lawful court ordered demands for documents and testimony. The refusal by ATF Chief Counsel’s office to provide truthful and factual counsel to the Executive staff continues to create costly litigation for the employees and wasteful litigation and costly settlements for the Bureau. The consistent failure of ATF counsel to report significant violations of policy and law by ATF managers to appropriate authorities i.e. OPSRO and the OIG, allows the patterns and practices to continue.

The use of internal affairs to conceal ATF manager’s ethical and/or criminal violations regularly includes lackluster investigations and/or only cursory investigations when Senior management officials are implicated. The failure to pursue allegations against ATF managers when they are supported by documentary evidence is common practice. Refusal to open investigations against ATF managers is the standard response. It is common-place to withhold or delay OIG findings or interviews related to senior managers when discipline or more severe consequences would be warranted. Chief Counsel’s Office, Internal Affairs, ELRB and senior management facilitates the timely retirement from the Bureau of managers who are known to have committed significant violations of policy or law. This effectively shields them from perjury or sworn testimony harmful to the Agency. Internal Affairs conducts hyper-aggressive investigations related to whistleblowers and or EEOC complainants. OPSRO fails to conduct transparent investigations for the purpose of covering up gross mismanagement and abuse of authority by senior managers. The obstruction of justice and perjury by senior ATF managers has been ignored.

ATF EEOC Directorate blatantly and willfully disregards statutory timelines (often in excess of 300 days) creating artificial delays within the process and forcing unnecessary litigation and litigation expenses to complainants causing a Bureau wide chilling effect on potential complainants. With the support and guidance from Chief Counsel’s office, the EO office and the Agency withhold evidence or deny its existence until such evidence has been proven to exist by the complainants.

Management witnesses are thoroughly interviewed while witnesses identified by the Complainant are ignored or retaliated against later. Reports of Investigation are improperly documented. The no fear act is ignored and manipulated within the Bureaus hierarchy.

Multiple violations related to the validated threats against Special Agents have resulted in extremely expensive and unnecessary litigations at taxpayer’s expense. In these instances, the Bureau’s history of retroactively attempting to destroy the agent’s reputation and discredit the agent’s honorable service were employed through Chief counsel, Personnel Office and Internal Affairs. Personal attacks on the professional contributions as well as psychological attacks were employed. Multiple and punitive transfers to create hardship upon these agents when complaints were logged destroyed not only the agents but their families. Families have been splintered through multiple punitive transfers, health complications are created within the families and often financial devastation is the result.

Counsel’s office has consistently stated this strategy is the Bureau’s position to supervisory classes to send a message and discourage complaints. The agency failed to act, acted in bad faith and in several cases ignored policy and safety procedures knowingly. When the threatened agents challenged ATF management, they launched a campaign of personal and professional attacks and retroactive destruction of the complainant’s reputation to discredit the complaints. In most cases no negative documentation existed prior to the complaints. The devastation to the families is undeniable. An attack is carried out against an agent and the Agency does not respond with even one agent. The Special Agent in Charge ensures no ATF assets are directed at investigating or protecting the Agent’s family. A veiled attempt to name the Agent as a suspect was undertaken by management as a matter of reprisal for his prior whistle blowing activity.

Perceived, and actual whistle blowers have suffered withering attacks on every possible administrative and employment related grounds. A perceived whistleblower was denied all of the Bureau internal remedies. The result was a fabricated and fictitious assault on the agent’s ability to perform their duty after 18+ years of service. An unnecessary lengthy and expensive and extremely damaging litigation resulted. Chief Counsels Office was once again directly implicated in the fabricated representation to a U S Congressman and administrative court of law. The assigned attorney was quickly and quietly employed by a sister agency before accountability by himself or his supervisors could be obtained. Multiple incidents of the agency falsely responding to Congressional inquiries can and will be provided.

The Bureaus second most powerful manager Deputy Director Edgar Domenech, himself filed a whistleblower complaint and publicly stated that the Bureau of ATF has a propensity for reprisal and he “knew” such actions would result in career suicide. This institutional pattern of fear does not create a transparent law enforcement agency and blatantly violates the No Fear Act. It should be noted that there are many dedicated and professional managers within ATF who have or have wanted to act ethically and professionally, only to suffer the same abuse as the field agents. Supervisors are transferred back to headquarters, demoted or their successful careers impeded at the hands of vindictive senior managers. It is unconscionable that such courageous Agents and Supervisors should be governed by such a hostile and pervasive institutional mandate of fear.

A Special Agent attempts to resist an investigation using unlawful wiretaps. The Special Agent openly challenges and reports it to superiors. After 20 + years of exemplary service, the next 1 ½ years results in the Special Agent and his family being transferred 5 times, suspended for 3 days, attempts made to have a psyche evaluation conducted, 2 letters of reprimand, and ultimately a termination. ATF Counsel agreed to settle the complaint in concert with the complainant’s attorney present when unlawful and unethical practices were uncovered on the part of SES managers during sworn testimony. In the case of this whistleblower/grievant, not one significant act of misconduct was documented for over 20+ years of decorated service until the very night that the complaint was made. Once the depositions were cancelled, ATF Chief Counsel’s office indicated there would be no settlement. This protracted the litigation and insured a much more costly settlement and a further waste of taxpayer’s funds. Documents requested 12 months prior to the hearing dates, were turned over just days before the complainant’s response was due. These documents existed all along and ATF counsel refused under lawful authority to relinquish them and in fact denied their existence.

The government mobility agreement is used contrary to law and ethical designs to punish Agents without due process and often times without justification. Complainants or those who would challenge unethical and/or illegal acts by Special Agents in Charge or senior managers are often threatened with collecting their next pay check in Fargo, North Dakota or Anchorage, Alaska. This violates the reprisal laws, the No Fear Act and the intent of the “good of the Bureau” ability to relocate agents. This practice is paramount to waste fraud and abuse because hundreds of thousands of dollars are wasted for the retaliatory transfers.

Internal Affairs is regularly used by ATF to generate credibility issues against complainants while ignoring the substantive whistleblower complaints which originally initiated internal affairs involvement. An anonymous letter was sent to the Department of Justice OIG from Las Vegas, Nevada alleging government Fraud waste and abuse. The OIG provided the letter to ATF Internal affairs for follow up investigation into the allegations contained in the anonymous letter. One of the primary objectives by ATF Internal Affairs investigators was to identify the author of the anonymous letter. During theInternal Affairs investigation, ATF identified an Agent who ATF had perceived to have been the whistleblower. This Agent became the recipient of vindictive personnel actions that ranged from a letter of reprimand to a notice of proposed removal from Federal service. Further investigation identified the true author of the letter and he/she admitted to being the author of the letter. ATF management then directed their attack on the actual whistleblower. ATF continued their attack on the perceived whistleblower and terminated him from Federal service. The Agent was later reinstated by ATF after appealing his removal to the MSPB. An Agent who provided documentation that supported the above agent’s allegations later became the target of reprisals for assisting the agent unknowingly after a demand for the documents was made by the agency.

The Wireless Communication Section (WCS) routinely discriminates against its older Telecommunication Specialists by subjecting them to a hostile work environment. In one case a Telecommunications Specialist with a Masters degree in Electrical Engineering was fired for technical incompetence. In another case a Telecommunications Specialist in his sixties with bad knees was being forced by WCS to attend a radio tower climbing school, something his bad knees would not allow him to complete so he retired. On several occasions, Telecommunications Specialists assignments have been changed to create hardship and as an act of reprisal to expedite a constructive retirement. Unwarranted disciplinary actions along with unsatisfactory annual performance evaluations are arbitrarily used to retaliate against employees. Many current Telecommunication Specialists left their old agency to come to ATF under the Pay Demo system in order to get the equivalent of as GS-14 salary. This system attracted the best and brightest from other agencies. WCS lacks leadership and relies on a hostile work environment as a means of managing our employees and assets.

Multiple substantive official allegations against senior managers go uninvestigated. One senior manager was alleged to have ignored ATF policy and procedure with regards to massive amounts of missing government property and certifying such documents knowingly. Another senior manager participated in the concealment of the intentional destruction of a Special Agent’s badges in an act of reprisal. He conspired to conceal the act and failed to report this act which is the willful and wanton destruction of sensitive government property. Both of these managers remain in the SES program.

Senior executive staff members have been advised directly and informally of the abuses and are either unwilling or incapable of making the necessary policy changes to prevent the ongoing abuse.

ATF’s Counsel’s Office, ELRB and HR resources act in concert to proactively attack and destroy Agents who complain and to deter others from acting on whistleblower or discrimination practices. Letters challenging mental and emotional stability are common practice. Low evaluations and letters of reprimand not consistent with Bureau practices are used. The agency pursues Psyche evaluations and forced reassignments, unjustified integrity investigations which would normally amount to nothing more than a local management issue if the agent had not been a complainant ATF knowingly and intentionally ignores EEO laws, procedures and practices. Although the law requires discrimination investigations to be addressed within 180 days, ATF has an average time to investigation exceeding 300 days. ATF counsel regularly and unethically delayed the procedures at every turn. This has generally gone hand in hand with ongoing and often times withering acts of reprisal to cause the complainant to drop their complaint. Whistleblower and discrimination complaints have become synonymous with career suicide and stated publicly by Edgar Domenech in his whistleblower complaint. As the second most powerful man in ATF he felt compelled to author anonymous letters out of fear for his career. Senior ATF managers are not required to testify in hearings, depositions or any other personnel action without ATF counsel present. Management statements are reviewed by Chief Counsel’s Office before they are submitted to the investigator. “Attorney Client” privilege is often invoked to protect the individual managers, not the Agency. The authors of this action will testify before Congress or meet with the Director without the benefit of counsel and will not invoke their right to the attorney client privilege if the agency heads will do the same. The truth remains the truth negates the need to hide behind legal representation. Managers are prepared and their testimony crafted by ATF Counsel, after the fact to attempt to conceal their reprisals. In one cases a Senior Executive schedule manager being groomed for a Special Agent in Charge stated “I do not know”, or I don’t recall” over 100 times during one sworn deposition. These responses were related to direct questions about actions he was responsible for or policies he was relying upon to defend his actions against the employee. Why would a manager be elevated to such a level if he cannot recall or doesn’t know ATF policy?

ATF does not recognize the wasteful process of ignoring legitimate employee concerns. Multiple Whistleblower and discrimination complaints which could and should have been resolved at the lowest level were escalated to a full blown legal battle due to the Bureau’s institutional mandate not to accept responsibility for its mistakes. ATF counsel’s office resists mediation or alternative dispute resolution measures due to the false assumption that this will create a flood of complaints. ATF has written millions of dollars worth of damages checks, court costs, travel funds and wasted man-hours on complaints which could have been handled with a hand shake. This is done with impunity and no oversight.

The standing philosophy that Whistleblower and discrimination complainants are automatically the enemy of the Bureau creates unnecessary litigation and results in higher monetary settlements. The Bureau is currently relying on sound-bite enforcement and failing to pursue sound investigative priorities.

Assignments to historically unfavorable positions and job duties have flown under the radar as reprisal. However, significant positions related directly to the successful mission are used to push senior agents out the door or to force compliance by junior agents. The field divisions’ operations officers are critical and essential to the effective management of ATF’s Mission. Yet consistently these positions are used to punish individuals who have made complaints, filed grievances or to ensure the constructive retirement of otherwise happy and productive senior agents. Agents are regularly threatened with assignments to TOO or other jobs or details for the sole purpose of causing hardship on the agent.

Agents are subjected to gross disparities in scrutiny or surveillance of their performance or work product if they file Whistleblower complaints, grievances or discrimination complaints.

The signatures on this document represent some of the most egregious abuses of authority over the past three years. However, the list of Agents, Inspectors and clerical staff who are willing to provide documents and direct sworn testimony related to the violations and abuses contained in this letter is significantly larger. The total lack of leadership and oversight has diminished the Bureau’s ability to perform its Mission at the lowest level. Collectively we intend to see that “Our” Bureau’s credibility and standing in the law enforcement community is restored to the level it once held.

It should be noted that in each case, the employees referenced in this letter made every attempt, sometimes heroic attempts, to resolve their grievances at the lowest and most informal level. Every representation contained in this letter is supported by memoranda, court documents and sworn depositions and internal written communications. This is a nationwide vote of no confidence.

Respectfully submitted,
/s/
G/S Rene J. Jaquez, Phoenix
S/A Jay Dobyns, Arizona
S/A Vincent A. Cefalu, California
S/A Kelly Niess, California
S/A Paul Jessen, New Mexico
S/A John Taylor, Nevada
S/A Jim Tokos, Nevada
Investigator Robbie Mcgowan-Butler, California
Radio Tech Stephen Swift, California
Admin Assistant Phyllis Goins, California
S/A Stephen Carman, California, Ret.
S/A Charlie Fuller, Tennessee, Ret.
S/A Sierra Donaven, Michigan, Ret.
Joesph Stafford, Ret. OCDETF Coordinator, California
Adam Delgado, Illinois, Former ATF S/A
Eugene Richards, Illinois, Former ATF S/A

[Retired and loving it]

Thank you for your post Outsider. It would be good if some of the ATF "leaders" read it and took heed but I doubt that that will happen. I don't know what ever happened to all of those FBI/DOJ attorneys who brushed Agent Johnston aside but Treasury Undersecretary Noble, who was willing to listen to Agent Johnston and had the courage to act upon the information that he provided, went on to a very responsible position with Interpol.

[Outsider]

I am new here, gentlemen, and you will see in my profile that I am not part of ATF, just your average civilian with business in the firearms industry. This particular discussion brought back to my mind a situation experienced by then AUSA in Waco, Bill Johnston, in 1999. News had recently broken about use of pyrotechnic gas grenades on April 19, 1993 despite years of FBI insistence that nothing like that had ever happened. While much is in dispute about whether or not this was a factor in the fire, as always the cover up was worse than the original issue. I am quoting a fairly long passage below from a letter written by Johnston to AG Reno, in August of '99, trying to express to her that she is not being told everything she should be. I think you will find he is dealing with something that will ring with familiarity to many here. He previously has noted that he received both a phone call (at home!) and a letter from an attorney in the DOJ Tort Branch (Marie Hagen) blasting him for allowing an investigator access to the evidence lockers, which led to discovery of the rounds in question. Though he had gone through proper channels for approval, he quickly begins feeling the heat. I hope you will find it worth the read, and I know it will bring up unpleasant reminders for some. Still, I think it is a good fit here.

As you recall, when Congress investigated the Davidian matter in 1995, I was called as a witness. Once it was determined that I would have to testify, I was kept at a distance from the Department. It was not the Department that brought me to Washington to prepare for the hearing, but the Treasury Department. Although I was treated courteously by Richard Scruggs, I was not assisted by anyone with DOJ in any real way in preparing for my testimony. In fact, I was handled as if I had some strain of intellectual leprosy. A couple of days before the hearing, an AUSA named Zipperstein told me that I needed to write out a statement of my recollection of the events. This, he said, was so that I could have these matters placed into the record in case I was not given the opportunity to have my say on certain matters. An office and computer were provided to me to prepare this statement. For the next several hours, I worked feverishly on my statement. Upon completion, I walked proudly to Mr. Zipperstein’s office with statement in hand only to be told that I did not need to do a statement after all. When I asked what had changed and why I would not be allowed to give the statement, Zipperstein told me simply that nothing had changed – he just did not need for me to do the statement. Naively, stupidly, I accepted his response. With the hearing beginning the next day, I made my way down the street to the Treasury Department where Undersecretary Ron Noble, who was neither ashamed of me, nor afraid of what I might say, talked with me about some of the issues which might arise at the hearing. I mention the foregoing about the previous experience because I anticipate the same or worse may occur. In fact, it may have already begun. Last week, a fax which originated with the Department of Justice came to me. The fax was in three pages. The first was a copy of handwritten notes which had apparently been written by a paralegal who assisted in the Davidian trial preparation. The notes were of an interview of an FBI agent which was probably conducted in 1993. The notes reflect that the agent said that he fired ferret rounds and a “military gas round.” An accompanying document is an outline of the witness testimony which bears the name of the paralegal and my name. This suggests that I was present during the interview. Although I do not specifically recall the interview, I was probably present if the document says I was. I can certainly tell you that, assuming I heard the entire conversation, the term “military gas round” would not have meant anything to me at the time. The third page of the fax was an FBI report of an agent who heard radio traffic about a military round being fired. It has been suggested to me that these documents were sent to me to “hang over my head,” or to say that I’d better look out stirring this matter up, as I may have to explain this paralegal’s memo. So long as it is the truth “hanging over my head,” I am not afraid. I will not be intimidated by anyone with the Department of Justice. I will assist the Congress or any other body who seeks the truth in this case.

I mentioned above that I think that I understand why Marie Hagen was so upset that I had worked with Mike McNulty in allowing him access to the Davidian evidence. I believe that the three pages faxed to me last week hold the answer. At the top of the typewritten document, someone has written, “…privileged.” At the bottom it appears that someone wrote, “DOJ witness do not disclose.” It appears that someone was making decisions about whether the plaintiffs in the civil case, or others, should have access to these documents. It is my own hypothesis that the Torts Branch has had these documents for years, and that they decided not to make them available to the plaintiffs. The Torts Branch or some other component also apparently decided not to let you know about these documents. Certainly, as attention focused in the past year on the fire issue, the full import of these documents must have been known to whomever possessed them. I now wonder whether or not you were ever advised that two Deputy U.S. Marshals in Waco were falsely accused of leaking raid information to the media back in 1993. These allegations were completely false, if not malicious. Not only was no action taken against the accusers who were both Deputy Marshals as well, but one of them has since been promoted. Similarly, although two ATF supervisors lied to the Rangers about whether or not they knew the element of surprise had been lost before the raid, representatives of the Department of Justice chose to not prosecute these individuals – and they were rehired with ATF. This sore of non-accountability as described above cuts at the credibility of the Department of Justice.

Bear in mind that Johnston was involved in the investigation and planning before the raid at Waco, and was one of the prosecutors in the criminal trials of 12 of the survivors. He had called for ATF to stop their review of the raid, while the siege was underway, as they were creating Brady material. He was on the agency's side throughout, but when he found there had been false testimony from any agency he was not interested in condoning it. His career had a sad ending. Under pressure from the retaliation within his own Department, he foolishly withheld some of his own notes and was later scapegoated for the whole issue he was trying to expose in his letter above. His job was going to be toast anyway, but he did make his own situation worse. Overall, I think it perfectly illustrates why things have to change at last, so that the kind of punishment some of you have experienced does not continue, and people are held accountable at all levels.

[Thor God of Thunder]

I agree with the points made by "Plain Old Agent". The sad part of all of this is that a lot of the times we drag ourselves through the mud with the ammunition that our top and stellar managers provide. They know some of this stuff is wrong but will go a long with it. A lot of the mud we have on us is self slung because there are some that have no idea or concept of what doing the right thing is and will blame the little guy or blame others for their bad decisions. I would like to for once see one of these guys stand up and say yes I made that decision and will accept the consequences. All I see them do is distance themselves and run for cover when the shit hits the fan. When the shit hits the fan that is when we need leadership the most and is when they all disappear and no one is at the wheel or are in complete and total denial. This is simply pathetic!

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

It has gone on way too long. Bring in a STRONG outside leader. It doesnt matter where he or she comes from. They must be tested, law enforcement and free from the collusion and self promoting that our Senior Executive staff have become. Pull SES grades from those who do not perform at the highest levels. Fire or sideline those SES and GS 15s who cant show they have a strong understanding of our mission. That means stop promoting 10-12 year ASACs. And fire those who cant follow the laws and rules of our chosen profession. It has to be someone who hasnt promoted or BEEN promoted by anyone in our senior leadership. He or She can appoint and potentially groom a Deputy Director to be our next and First Agent Director. First the bleeding has to stop before we bleed out. The cycle has to be broken. Everybody loses if the agency is absorbed. Except the bosses who have tanked this agency.

ISpy, several years ago, I would have had the same response as you. But that response was mostly out of the pride I had for ATF, and being an ATF agent. Back then I felt we were the best agency in the world, and no one could tell me differently. I felt we were the best "gun", "bomb" and "arson" agents God ever created, and we probably were. I still feel ATF is the best arson investigating team in the world. No one can touch our NRT! Since that time, in my opinion, our reputation has fallen as well as our focus. I feel it has fallen because of horrible leadership. Our leadership has not focused on the entire ATF agency. They have been focused on the furtherance of their own "after ATF" careers, and the "after ATF" careers of their cronies, and its all they care about. The selfishness of the people in power at ATF, is astonishing. To me, it's simply "empire building" and "bullying". Our focus nowadays, is horrible. ATF actually used to do mostly non adoptive cases, and very VERY few adoptive cases. But because we lost focus, we now produce mostly adoptive cases nationwide. And why do you think its that way now? Because we have leaders who are frightened that a non adoptive case may cause too many waves, which would effect their personal "after ATF" agenda. Now, if you just show up at a locals search warrant, its a non adoptive case! If I'm wrong, please correct me. It's all about stats now, whether its adoptive or non adoptive. And I'm not saying ATF agents are not good at gun and bomb cases. We are, but because of the "clown" atmosphere in our headquarters, we dont have the tools and leadership to do our job.

I personally think the best thing that could ever happen to ATF, is to be merged with another agency. Our agency is so small, most of the people who have been around for awhile, know each other, are friends, and take care of each other. If a miracle happens, and we survive, the worst thing that could happen, is someone within ATF becoming the director. The cycle that has destroyed ATF, would start all over again. If my memory serves me correctly, we have never had a retired FBI agent as our director. They have mostly, if not all have been retired Secret Service agents, or attorneys. And I didnt mean to say that a retired FBI agent as our director would save our agency. I feel a retired chief of police of a huge police department, may be just as good. Like Zorro said, and I agree, if we are to survive, we would need a very dynamic, strong former leader, to take control of our lost agency. If we promote someone within, this person will have many friends in the agency, and will start from day one with lost power. If you are a supervisor, and you are already friends and buddies with your equals, and now subordinates, you lose a little power, which negatively affects leadership abilities.

ISPY, I hope I explained my opinion in a positive light since we both DEFINITELY want the same goals.

[x1811]

Bring someone in from the FBI to run our Agency??? HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Melson, Truscott and Magaw all came from outside that that was a mess. The last two coming with an entitlement mentality wanting everyone to kiss their ring. I wonder how much you have really worked around the FBI and than Holier than Though types.

We have plenty of good managers within our own Agency. They just tend to be lower down the food chain and somewhat quiet to avoid getting screwed by the upper management club. They don't like to play the games. I can think of two ASACs right off the bat and I'm sure a lot of you can think of others you have worked for.

I don't know....Former DEA Administrator Francis Mullen was with the FBI for 20 years and made substantial improvements to DEA operations and grew the agency into a more effective crime fighting agency. Former DEA Administrator John Lawn was with the FBI for 15 years before being "transferrred" to the DEA. During his tenure he increased the number of DEA agents by 900 and increased their budget from $362 million to over $750 million. He put DEA on the map duuring the crack cocaine epidemic and got international Columbian drug trafficker Carlos Lehder extradited to the U.S. He also headed the Kiki Camerena kidnapping/murder investigation. In my career I worked with plenty of DEA and FBI SA's. Some were a**holes, but the overwhelming majority were decent hardworking guys. There is arrogance and a**holes in every law enforcement agency. The ATF is not immune to arrogance as these forums have proven ample evidence by ATF SA's that this agency has too many internal problems. DEA Administrators and FBI Directors have mostly been outsiders. I do not see these agencies suffer from the leadership issues ATF is experiencing. Outside leadership brings in fresh ideas and new leadership. Also an outsider has not formed any allegances within the organization that be end up biting back at him down the road. ATF jsut does not seem able to attract effective leadership.

[Zorro]

ISpy: In a perfect world I would like to agree with you, but I have concerns about someone from inside. 1. Who will actually step up if the opportunity comes? Right now, the best aren't even interested from what I see. 2. Of those who will step up, how many have ZERO allegiances or behavior patterns connected to the current regime? As I posted elswhere in the forum, this isn't my first goat rope. The last troubled agency I worked for, the torch was passed time and time again. 3 chiefs in my first 2 years on the job. Not much better than permanent actors. Each successor adapted the ways of the previous only a different clique came to power. Morale stunk in perpetuity as the backstabbing continued one regime to the next. The best scandal free strecth (and longest serving CLEO of my tenure there) was when an outsider came in with no old baggage or blood oaths. 3. I am not so sure I want the quiet ones to get the reins. As it is now, they see the corruption and abuse but refuse to confront it for their own comfort. When it crops up again, will they change their colors from "go along to get along" and become solid professionals with the spine to say "ENOUGH" and hold higher pay grades to at least equal standards of conduct? MAYBE. If not, we will repeat the entire filthy cycle. 4. I feel more comfortable with someone who doesn't need the job. This agency needs bold, dynamic leadership from someone who is not afraid to tell the truth - no mater who it offends. We have alienated the people we are supposed to protect in the regulatory realm by torturing them in their livlihoods and tanked our credibility in the LE world possibly beyond repair. In both cases no matter how wrong we are, we insist we are right and lie repeatedly to prove it. A milktoast cannot repair any of that. We need someone that the general public will see and hear, then walk away amazed and excited in near disbelief that they just encountered a government employee. Anything less will just be seen as more smoke and mirrors produced by another crop of empty Armanis. The right military officer could work wonders - but where to find one who wants to clean up someone else's tragic mess and has the character for it? Wish I knew. The best guy I can think of just got busy with being a congressman.

[ISpy]

Bring someone in from the FBI to run our Agency??? HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!! Melson, Truscott and Magaw all came from outside that that was a mess. The last two coming with an entitlement mentality wanting everyone to kiss their ring. I wonder how much you have really worked around the FBI and than Holier than Though types. We have plenty of good managers within our own Agency. They just tend to be lower down the food chain and somewhat quiet to avoid getting screwed by the upper management club. They don't like to play the games. I can think of two ASACs right off the bat and I'm sure a lot of you can think of others you have worked for.

[beckroge]

I am trying to understand the drama of the political performance in this organization. Is not Mr. Melson a fallen guy? Someone selected to take the blame for mistakes? It is hard for me to tell exact bits of the system so I can only assume that there has been no leader appointed by your president and approved by your Congress for very many years, six or seven I should think. You must have the support to do the work or else you are nothing but a caretaker. It looks like nobody has had the support for a very long time and that nobody could get the support needed to be the official leader. Ha! a headless Hydra! I have a theory. It is not a Socialists dominion at this organizations because that would mean that the workers are running the curtains. It must be an auto cracy by joint rule. The autos want somebody to tell them that decisions are good so they ask to kiss the rings of the gods on Olympus. But the gods are lawyers doing what they think is the best way to take care of the stupid mortals. The gods get a sacrifice in the form of regular acting directors who are merely the victims of bad timing. Mr Melson cannot take responsibility for what is happening because he was never given the responsibility. He is just a goat being led to the altar of the gods.