95 replies to this topic

[Ozark Noodler]

ATF is looking for True Leadership. We'd like to have someone who worked the streets, but was able to go beyond on their own merits. I present: Reynold N. Hoover. He was a Special Agent in the early 90's. He has the LEADERSHIP Qualities our agency employees are seeking. Not sure he'd want to come back, but sure would be great if someone would ask him to take control of the chaos.


Reynold N. Hoover
Assistant Vice President, Law & Risk Management,
CSX Intermodal, Jacksonville, Florida

He joined CSX Transportation as its Assistant Vice President for Police & Infrastructure Protection in May 2007. In that capacity, Reynold is responsible for CSX’s Police Department and Infrastructure Protection programs, securing a 21,000- mile rail network, along with the company’s critical infrastructure assets in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. He also represents CSX on matters relating to national rail security policy. Prior to joining CSX, Reynold was appointed by the President of the United States as a Special Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Senior Director for Nuclear Defense Policy on the Homeland Security Council within the Executive Office of the President. In that capacity, Reynold was responsible for leading domestic nuclear defense policy issues and was responsible for coordinating national continuity of government policy.

Reynold also served as the Director of the Office of National Security Coordination in the Department of Homeland Security’s Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA); and as Chief of Staff for then-FEMA Director Joe M. Allbaugh, responsible for the day-to-day operations of the agency and for executing the priorities and policies of the FEMA Director.

Reynold earned a Bachelor of Science degree from the United States Military Academy and a Master’s Degree from Birmingham-Southern College. He also holds a law degree from The Catholic University of America’s Columbus School of Law and is a graduate of the U.S. Army War College.

Anyone have a suggestion as to how we can get Congress to recommend this man to be our next leader? Nothing against Traver, but he has been a part of the broken SES system for too long, and we need someone with outside leadership experience, a law background to know when ATF and DOJ attorneys are lying, and a street background to relate to those in the field. Reynold Hoover worked the streets, understood explosives quite well, and worked great with the Regulatory side of the house. He has even prosecuted criminal cases in federal court, so he truly has accomplished many things on his own merit.

[ATFTRUTHTELLER]

Pinacolada,

It sounds like some DIO/Area Sups unique interpretation of instructions. I've been told by IOI's who worked for DAD McCabe when he was a DIO he had the exact same policy but if you finished your assignments and traveled home without staying overnight he never said a word, because it saved the Bureau money. He just didn't want IOIs spending most of their shift driving or running up milage on personal vehicles by driving back and forth on the same assignment.

Zorro, haven't a clue what ATF's mission is in Denmark but i'm willing to "take one for the team" and go on a fact finding mission...

A little bird told me that ATF Lab Services is still running NIBIN into the ground. Wasted another $400,000 by not shutting down over 30 sites they already agreed needed to be shut down. Wasted $450,000 the previous quarter by not getting around to shutting down the sites they already agreed on shutting down. That is $850,000 in the past six months pissed away. Over $20,000,000 in the past two years wasted on sites that don't produce and everyone agrees needs to be shut down. I heard that Risenhoover complained to DOJ IG and they did nothing. It is only a matter of time till they go after him. The government is broke and ATF can't be bothered to save $20,000,000. NIBIN is a great program and works well in big cities. No one listens and keeps on driving the bus into the river. Why????

[Lone Wolf]

Pinacolada,

It sounds like some DIO/Area Sups unique interpretation of instructions. I've been told by IOI's who worked for DAD McCabe when he was a DIO he had the exact same policy but if you finished your assignments and traveled home without staying overnight he never said a word, because it saved the Bureau money. He just didn't want IOIs spending most of their shift driving or running up milage on personal vehicles by driving back and forth on the same assignment.

Zorro, haven't a clue what ATF's mission is in Denmark but i'm willing to "take one for the team" and go on a fact finding mission...

[Zorro]

From what I can tell after reading our policy is that other ATF SESers determine whether you get the big $ bonuses or not. Outside SES personnel "may" be used to evaluate performance, but first guess would be that doesn't happen.

Congress needs to trim some fat in this regard. People can and would run the agency as GS-15s. No retirement PCS, 20% pay hikes, "incentives", etc. Without even trying to be specific, seems like 500,000-1 mil could be saved on bonus payments alone.

If I am missing anything, someone please chime in.

[The Original Ralph]

chainsaw, the sad part, even after reading the descriptions from multiple posters on this forum, the average sane person wouldn't/couldn't/can't believe the posts - down deep i wouldn't want to, but atf managment/Medusa is that bad.

occasionally we had some issues with our OSHA inspector - this guy had personal issues, serious ones and took them out on the companies he inspected. i could see most of the issues were or had to be, plain and simply, he was unhappy with his life, he was short so the napolean complex was strong, and it was apparent the only satisfaction he got was demonstrating what authority he had by his inane citations. I kid not when i say we knew that at night, he must have laid out aspirin tablets on a table and practiced giving them a headache.

i finally found the cure - we had a secretary here, cute as a button with a personality that was golden and she always wore the nicest perfume i'd (or anyone) ever smelled. We let her assist him on his tour of the plant, offering him coffee, answering his questions etc. Wow what a difference in his reports a basic simple move like that made.

Problem with ATF mgmt or Medusa is, what or how do you appease them to get them to conduct themselves in something approaching a fair and professional manner?

but again, back to my basic assertion - there is no way you or anyone not involved with Medusa, can truly appreciate the depravity of their conduct.

[apostate]

After 20 years I have come to the very same conclusions. And while I have no doubt that other gov agencies operate like this to some extent, I have yet to talk to the attorney who represents agents from various agencies not say, "I've never seen anything like it" about ATF. I have always felt that one of the reasons it was so much worse at ATF in this regard was that before Waco, most people had never heard of ATF. It was much harder to get any type of media coverage (and then political help) b/c of this. And if you did get someone to finally listen, what you told was usually so unbelievable, that you were just written off as a nut.

Also Ralph, loved your "Medusa" analogy. The main attorney who used to handle all the cases against the agents was a Michelle Davis King. She represented the agency in it's personnel actions, as well as represented everything wrong and twisted in ATF. She trained Eleanor Loos if that tells you anything. Anyway, bless her heart, Ms. King was not an attractive woman and her hair was very curly. My attorney, the late Prather Randle, started calling her "Medusa", and we never referred to her as anything else. When I looked at her, I saw pure evil. It was obvious that she truly enjoyed what she did and was not merely an attorney for ATF after a personnel action, but that she was up to her very unattractive neck in the conspiracies to go after any agents who dared stand against HQ, and no despicable act was beneath her. I don't think I've ever been as personally offended by another human being in my life. She was truly representative of what HQ was all about and I see that not much has changed - there are just new names.

Since there is so much confusion between the fine agents in the field and snakes in HQ, maybe instead of referring to "ATF" when we talk about the corruption in HQ, we can just refer to "Medusa".

With the number of innocent lives destroyed and lost by incompetent or arrogant ATF management, I think the word "evil" would aptly describe them. No other federal law enforcement agency has this level of problems and I have worked with all of the major ones.

Like in Waco when DOJ needs some dirty work done they know to come to ATF

[ISpy]

Does anyone know exactly what the SES Bonuses are based on?

Years ago they use to put out a list of awards, both cash and comp. time that was given to every Agent all the way up the chain. I think that was some part of the Black Agent Law Suit. Whatever happened to that list getting published? Sure was interesting to see all the 8 hours of comp time awarded and then the 5 figure bonuses going to the SESs.

[The Original Ralph]

Chainsaw – it’s nice to know you aren’t management, anonymously posting trying to sell these guys to work with mgmt, kind of like Lucy convincing Charlie Brown that this year she won’t pull the football away. Since your contact with ATf has only been with agents, your statement(s) make a lot more sense.

What will never make sense to me is ATF mgmt’s motivation in their conduct. I’m a simple guy - a guy robs a bank, the motivation is easy to discern – he wants the money inside. Before this website I assumed their motivation was simply anti-2nd amendment with some arrogance developed from lack of accountability. Reading how they treat their agents, I can only assume mgmt conducts itself the way it does solely for the pleasure of being evil. I know that has to sound harsh, but there’s no other explanation and per glenn beck, makes me want to wrap my head in duct tape to keep it from exploding. They apparently take enjoyment from demonstrating their power, irregardless of the harm they cause to their agents, the industry or the public, with the more vile the position they can take, the more arrogance they've demonstrated, which apparently generates the most pleasure or satisfaction.

Sandy Davis – to be clear, I’ve no issues with inspectors. In general, the couple of bad experiences were irksome, at worst, and due to their lack of knowledge of the regs, and even that is understandable as FFl inspections are probably, at most, 3% of their workload with Alcohol & Tobacco compliance being the dominant workload. Those two areas, I’m sure the regs are the same as the FFL regs, kind of like the IRS tax code, mind boggling. It’s been the constant 180 degree cycling of rulings that ATF Washington seems to enjoy generating, that has amounted, as Len Savage referred to it, “enforcement by ambush”. They have put citizens that have made purchases in full compliance of the regs, then they’ll change or twist the “interpretation” of those regs while openly acknowledging they are putting those individuals into felony violation status retroactively. They get away with it or have, simply because the American public would never believe it – nor the audacity of it.

You guys putting this stuff out there makes the industry realize the corruption at ATF HQ is more serious than we had thought, and helps give the industry issues credence - that’s my primary reason for supporting this website. On the reverse side, the industry issues becoming more public helps give the true picture of ATF mgmt more depth, and has to help the agents' cause.

[Zorro]

The agency is riddled with wasteful spending. pinacolada, sounds like you have a local problem. If you have made situations like that known to your managers and are told to stay overnight with no work, time to fire up the keyboard and let OIG know. Not that you can expect much, especially if OIG kicks it back to ATF but if congress starts to examine other areas of misconduct it may help.

Meanwhile, BOLO for this bit of intel this year - SES bonuses are to be limited to 5% (no more 20% pay hikes) for 2011 and 2012. Please post any incidents of non-compliance.

http://www.chcoc.gov...nsmittalID=3997


Does anyone know what ATF's mission is in Denmark?

[CI***]

Big cuts are going to have to be made. I almost feel like ATF is getting tossed under the bus. I mean, yeah there are major problems and they need to cut staff by at least half. But if the GOP wins the ATF is toast. If Tea Party GOP wins it will be even faster. No more hanging out on your fat guts watching TV at the Courtyard while informants do your work. Oh the karma is priceless. I do hope honestly things turn around. The ATF was a good agency long ago.

[pinacolada]

For those that do not know-Industry Operations Investigators (formerly inspectors)have to travel throughout their respective territories in order to inspect Federal Firearm Licensees and Federal Explosive Licensees. Deputy Assistant Director Harry McCabe, through his Directors of Industry Operations (DIO) and Area Supervisors (AS)has instituted a policy that if an Investigator travels over 100 miles, they should conduct several inspections and stay overnight. In theory, this sounds good and make work some of the time. However, because of Headquarter programs and Division priorities, there is not always "extra work" in a particular area. And sometimes, even with "extra work" it is possible that you will get done and be able to come home and not stay the night. I don't know if this is part of DAD McCabe's instructions or not, maybe just incompetent managers not able to think outside the box, but investigators across the nation are being told that even if they get through with their work and could come home, that they have to stay overnight if it was over 100 miles. What a waste. Many investigators work a flexible schedule that allows them to work up to 10 hours in a day. So many times work can be accomplished with enough time to get back home. But under current guidelines, this is not to happen. This entails cost for a hotel and meal per diem. Using CONUS this would amount to $77 (hotel) and $69 (meals)=$146 extra. Why does management come up with such stupid policies? I can't begin to tell you how many times, I could have saved the government that extra money. The agency is always harping about money but yet they try to make concrete policies that cannot always work and the 14's and 15's just go along to get along. WOW and we wonder why we are where we are. I hope Congress will look into all the problems within ATF if we are still around to do so. If you are a citizen and reading this and don't like your tax money wasted-contact your congressman.

[avatar]

http://oversight.hou...ss_due_7-18.pdf

From a letter by Senator Grassley and Congressman Issa to Eric Holder released this morning:

We have recently learned that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) has afforded potential witnesses for the Committee's investigation into Operation Fast and Furious access to a shared drive on its computer system replete with pertinent investigative documents, including ATF e-mails. Although our staff has been advised the Department has since terminated access to this document cache, we write to seek additional information relating to this egregious decision. We also ask that you promptly self-report this matter to the Office of Inspector General (OIG).

As we understand it, the shared drive contains the documents that have been produced to the Committees through the course of our investigation, those made available for in camera review and possibly documents that the Department of Justice (DOJ) has not yet provided to the Committee. These witnesses had not previously seen many of these documents.

Allowing witnesses access to such documents could taint their testimony by allowing them to tailor their responses to what they think the Committees already know. Additionally, witnesses who gain access to documents they have not previously seen could alter their recollection of events. This practice harms not only our investigation, but also the independent investigation that you instructed the Inspector General to conduct.

One witness who had access to these documents informed us of this questionable practice:

Q: What other documents have you gone through other than your emails?
A. A couple of the things that have been produced. They put a link on our computer, some kind of drive that I can click on and read things that have been produced. So I do that every once in a while, but not normally.

Q: And what is the purpose of that, to your knowledge?
A. Just to refresh my recollection about what is out there, you know.

Q: So you have a link on your computer so that you know what we have been provided by Justice?
A. Yes. There is a link in our computer for Gunrunner, Fast and Furious produced to Congress, and there is updates every once in a while of those documents that are being produced.

[retired1811]

Thank you Chainsaw

[Chainsaw]

All off you that are upset with Chainsaw assumed that I worked for ATF, which I do not. No Vince, I don't have a $100,000 go along to get along gig. I am a local police officer who works very closely with ATF Agents and my salary is only around $45,000 a year. ATF helps us out when the FBI and DEA won't even return our phone calls. ATF has helped our city by taking the worst criminals federally and locking them away for a long time. ATF Agents hit the streets with us, make buys with us and kick in doors with us (with search warrants of course) on a regular basis. ATF Agents are more like street cops than any other federal agency.

Sandy Davis, I didn't say anything about Fast and Furious or Agent Terry. You are the one who brought the Terrys into the conversation. This website was up and running and the ATF bashing was going on long before Fast and Furious ever made headlines. I was simply saying that ATF is stocked with good agents who do good work and also has those of you who arent happy and may be better satisfied somewhere else.

I am grateful for the relationships I have developed with the ATF Agents that I work with. They are a bunch of good guys, unlike the way this website portrays ATF.

[The Original Ralph]

okay - i wasn't going to respond to this thread but i can't help it

again, i'm not atf but industry. Chainsaw - from the industry side, i can tell you point blank, i've seen, on a predicatable basis, deceptions, illogical rulings & decisions from ATF HQ (often reversing a previous decision) since the mid 1990s, all delivered with unbridled, shameless arrogance that i have never in my 61 yrs on this planet, seen anywhere else (I've got ruling letters on hand that have made attorneys shake their heads). To say ATF management has been reptilean would be an understatement (and i use that metaphor clinically, not vindictively, and i utter it with all due respect).

Up till now i had thought ATF management was simply hiper-anti 2nd amendment, in spite of their self-described mandate in 1974 that they were there to "assist" the industry. Reading the threads here regarding how ATF management has treated it's troops (ie the field agents) tells me it a combination of anti-firearms sentiment with a heavy heavy dose of arrogance from years of no accountability. I've been lied to by Theresa Ficaretta, as Chief Counsel every time i came into contact with her. She has stood rulings that were established decades ago, on their ear and put untold civilians into felony violation status RETROACTIVELY with a smugness that i cannot even fathom. Theresa - i do hope you're reading this. As someone with a law degree, she can't claim ignorance of ethical standards AND YET SHE HAS CONVINCED ME AND A NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS PRACTICING FIREARMS LAW THAT SHE HAS NO ETHICAL STANDARDS WHATSOEVER.

For the love of anything holy, how does ATF management tell a dealer in Houston for 9 months to go thru with straw sales that that dealer had called into ATF concerned about, and then turn around and actually charge that dealer with making suspicious sales and straw sales??? All for a few minutes of positive press for themselves and their "gunrunner" program. Sad, they didn't have the IQ to look 2 steps ahead & realize the charges would not only not stick, but of the embarrassment that would follow - THAT SHAMELESS CONDUCT REFLECTS ON YOUR ENTIRE AGENCY. And you want to assume that management has / will shed it's arrogance and shamelessness? It's gotten to the point where it's genetically encoded at HQ - they have no other plays in their playbook because the one they've used for years has worked so well, up till now.

The arrogance is so deeply engrained, the proof being the undeservedly poor treatment these agents have received while management gets a complete pass on serious violations (the most recent example being that pervert in New Orleans that rented hotel rooms on an ATF credit card to set up a glory hole. Even that perverse act and the embarrassment it should have brought ATF HQ did not give ATF pause to circle the wagons around him. Chainsaw, you're defending Medusa, the multi-headed snake when you defend management and ask the agents that are posting here to "trust" ATF HQ that this time mgmt has seen the light and somehow will develop some integrity. ATF HQ convinced me a long time ago they can't even spell the word, much less display it. But a question: how low or perverted a violation would a manager have to commit to be sanctioned by ATF HQ?

A $2 Tijanua hooker would have a better chance convincing me she didn't have any STDs then you will that ATF management has suddenly seen the light of their errors. But that's just me, an outsider.

I'm sure ATF HQ will put their computer forensics staff on overtime to identify me - and all the agents on this forum would no doubt eat my lunch if ATF HQ painted me as a target - so be it. I was in real estate for 21 years and an old broker warned me early, that all the little transgressions i might attempt to get away with, to be aware, the "pleasure" of those might be sweet, but they come in in small increments, but to keep in mind all those "pleasures" had an equal offsetting "pain" and the pain from those transgressions would come home all at one time. Personally, i hope those reptiles at HQ are named & shamed in pubic.

The "Shades of Many Doubts" story i posted at http://cleanupatf.or...onalism-in-atf/ . After committing unadulterated perjury to convict an innocent dealer, and caught at it, Gary Shaible not only was not reprimanded, he was made "Acting Chief" of NFA branch for 8-9 years, and only NOT made "CHIEF" because to do would have been an open admission that lying had become a professional responsibilty at ATF HQ.

Chainsaw, - try to sell eskimos ice - you'll have more success than trying to convince me that ATF HQ suddenly realizes the errors of their ways.

But that's just me, and again, the above is stated in all due respect.

[atfsa]

I appreciate the responses from those agents who tried to approach management and got beaten down. I also understand the history of this agency - I have been around here a long time. Due to the continuing fallout from Operation Fast and Furious and it's aftermath, I believe this agency is in the worse position it has ever been in during it's entire history - worse than the early 80s and worse than after Waco. I do fear that the abolishment of this agency is a more likely outcome than Congress, DOJ, etc. marching in and removing our entire management system. Management has to agree about the likelihood of abolishment, and they have to be getting embarassed and upset by the continuous exposure provided by CleanUpATF. They certainly monitor this site and understand it's powerful results and connections. Due to all these new conditions, perhaps they would be more agreeable to hear our voices now than they were in the past? Or, everyone really thinks it is a lost cause?

[Ozark Noodler]

ATFSES I mean ATFSA

The only way to change ATF is to:

-Enter management and try to change policies and management decisions.
But the promotion process is so corrupted that competent honest hard working agents are shut out of the promotion process. It is a well-known fact that certain groups and individuals are given the answers and cheat sheets before attending the Assessment Center. Many very good agents have been given low scores at the assessment center because there come from the wrong background. Agents now know the AC is so corrupt they do not even bother putting in for it. ASAC assessment test scores were retroactively just lowered to get certain people into management according to good sources. The entire system is so corrupt it is not even funny anymore. What happened last Fall with ATF's secret hiring process? OPM policies require the general public be notified and ATF ignored this. Why did ATF lower the standards at the academy for recent secret hired classes? Will this improve ATF or give ATF an entire new set of future management rejects? Please respond ATFSA

-Speak out and offer suggestions and try and stop illegal, dangerous management actions. It think Vince, Jay, Dodson and others just did this. Look how management treated them. Vince is without a job. There are quite a few senior agents all over ATF now being terminated due to minor infractions. I mean really minor while management commits major violations, fraud and they are promoted. And how can you defend the promotion of glory hole?

Why did JT just reveal ATF law enforcement sensitive uc techniques and practices to the public? If I had any CI's I would deactivate them immediately because I would no longer feel I could guarantee their safety. How many good experienced agents have left ATF under JT?

Many very good experienced good agents all over the country are looking to leave ATF now and know one is stopping them. Typical SAC/ASAC answer when he/she hears that an ATF agent is leaving for another agency is "Good we don't want you" No wonder so many are leaving now.

How does one improve ATF? Please be specific and don't use the standard reply "By doing good cases" A typical ATF agent does the work of 6-8 FBI agents now with no support from management and gets no credit. Many agents, IOI's in ATF come from military and local law enforcement backgrounds and possess very strong moral characters and an ingrained sense of right and wrong. That is why they are so pissed off when they witness ATF mgt fraud, criminal behavior and bad management practices with zero consequences.

The policies and orders of some in upper ATF mgt has escalated and just resulted in the lost lives of brave fed LEO's just like in Waco.

Should ATF agents IOI's just be silent and allow more deaths?

I got totally fed up with "management craziness" the last couple of years, so I decided to put in for the AC. 20 plus years, but stuck here a dozen more to get to a real retirement, so what the heck. They canceled the AC testing, saying no funding??? I asked, what if a position comes open that I want, well apparently I have to have an AC score. OFW. I didn't want to be in management anyway, but darn I did like making HQ think I might be headed for them full steam ahead. LOL So, I thought of the Agents I've known who went into HQ with plans to change the system. OOPS, they had not realized the Institutional arrogance was so ingrained, so over-demanding, and that trying to change it at ATF means changing GSA, OPM, EEO, FLSA, DOJ, OIG, ... Trust me, I've spoken to good people who tried to move into management to make changes. They try so very hard, but more often than not, they are beat down by far more than just a few ignorant ATF managers. I had an SES tell me of the efforts to remove Vanessa McLemore and how humiliating that mess became as they realized it wasn't going to happen and that DOJ was condoning it. Yes, DOJ. Remember, she was to be indicted by the US Atty of the Northern Dist of Georgia, but that never happened. And part of the trade off to remove her from Atlanta was to allow Matt Horace his SES to go to NJ. Such a demoralizing, head shaking, laugh to keep from crying shame that mess turned out to be. That was DOJ, and NOBLE behind the scenes pulling the strings. Then again, this has been done for others in the past, repeatedly. Remember, I said I'd been here 20 plus years, so I've seen the slimmy stuff done by management to protect management, and only in recent years began to see the outside interferences that force many of the horrible management decisions. Luckily, there are some damn good men and women who have made it into management, so they give it balance. And not everyone I've seen listed on this site is totally horrible. Melson is an outsider without a clue, so he doesn't count. He has an attorney's spine. Most people will admit to having had good experiences with Hoover. Most have always known that Chaite puts Chaite first, always, but he hasn't crushed too many people on his climb. Then a few others listed on this site are just horrible people. They have no management abilities, zero leadership skills, no people skills, and really are dead weight for the agency. Wish they would let some of them jump ship to TSA, again. ATF is a small agency, but it is ruled by huge egos inside and outside, and giant agencies from all sides. Until ATF gets a true LEADER, one who puts the agency back on track, who tells OPM, GSA, DOJ, EEO, and others to get out of the way while repairs are made. Let the chips fall, let the disgruntled sue, but fix the messes and no more free passes. Fixing ATF will mean not backing down to all those OVERSIGHT Groups, and it will require ATF HQ to remove every ATF Atty within the agency. The ATF Attys are a large part of the problem, especially as they don't understand law enforcement, and they drink from the DOJ watercooler so they can't be trusted with ATF business. Then every SES who has been involved in any criminal act on the job that has been upheld by the PR board and Deciding Official, has to be removed-retire as no one will do anything to them. Next all GS 14s and above are also held to this standard. And lastly the indians. (no offense) This means agents and IOIs and staffers, and support personnel, and laboratory people and all the others. To clean a house, you start at the top, but it isn't over until the floors have been mopped.

[Ozark Noodler]

I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.

Chainsaw, quitters never win, winners never quit OK, the folks who started this website, I know them professionally and personally. They are Type A, never give up, never quit, never back down, never surrender people. They would die for you, me, anyone to include a stranger if that is what it would take to save a life. Most likely, with their skills, insight, training, backgrounds, and quick thinking only the Bad Guys need worry about dying. SO your suggestion for them to Quit, that is ludicris. These guys are fighting to protect what they love and cherish, have put their lives into for many years. They did not choose the path of least resistance (management), they stayed on the streets. They learned, they made mistakes, they made great decisions, they worked hard, they made great cases, they put evil people out of the business of doing evil to others. Seems a bit melodramatic, but when an Armed Career Criminal gets caught buying a gun/drugs from an U/C ATF Agent, then spends the remaining good years of his life behind bars, many people are protected who will never know it. When homicides, bombings, arsons, gun smugglers, armed drug dealers, outlaw biker organizations, international terrorists funding sources (tobacco), and so many others are stopped because of the small handful of ATF special agents (about 1800 on the streets of the US and US Territories) it is something to be PROUD OF. So, if quitting is your suggestion, it tells us alot about you and I don't want you to have my back. If you work for ATF, you will move up in your chosen management career, because i can't imagine you are a street agent. If so, your time on the street will be short, I know because I've been on the street for a very long time. If you are worried that ATF is going to go away, quit worrying. ATF is here to stay. The NRA actually has our back, as well as Issa and Grassley. We will be fine, we've come through these issues repeatedly. Just cross your fingers we get a leader and not a manager.

[Cool Hand]

Okay, let me get this straight. If those of us who are fighting for change, corrective action, improvement and reform in our little agency had just kept our mouths shut everything would be fine? Our entire system of government was set up with the very idea of oversight, "checks and balances" and the peaceful/democratic means for corrective action (hell, the very reason why we don't have one national police agency is the fear of too much control in the hands of one cabinet level executive and the need to offset the predictable potential for abuse of power--you'll notice that military and intelligence agencies are split up into compartments as well). Those of us who are "standing up" have the courage of our convictions. History shows that speaking out against mismanagement is the right thing to do.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

ATFSA, I feel your frustration and would love the Utopia you describe. You have either not been paying attention, are a fairly new employee or have just now become aware of how outrageous the conduct of our most senior managers has become over the last 4-5 years.

Are you aware that over 20 current and retired ATF Agents and Inspectors wrote and signed an open letter (along with extensive documentation) to Director Sullivan and Director Melson outlining criminal and integrity violations by the very people he was accepting counsel from? It went ignored and increased reprisals began against any of those who signed the letter.

Who in a perfect world would you approach that we haven't already? Melson, Dirty, Hoover, Dirty, Chait, Dirty, McMahon, Dirty, Loos, Bouman, Hurst, Ficaretta, Dirty, Internal Affairs? Dirty! Traver? He has been completely silent even though he is our nominee. Is it your informed and professional belief that you have some secret venue that even could clean up this mess without public and Congressional oversight, after the President of FLEOA and our ATF President were placated and then told to go pound sand?

Do you believe that anyone on this site or in the field would support your "anonymous" efforts no matter how well-intentioned? Is it your belief that Mr. Melson would lie to the American people on National CNN broadcasts and subsequently be seeking Whistle-blower protection for himself, and he could be approached?

And finally, check this out, Brother or Sister; This is how www.CleanUpATF.org has worked out for us so far. Loos? GONE. Domenech, Bouchard and Gordon? GONE. Multiple settlements for horrendous treatment of ATF employees? PAID. Numerous employees? REINSTATED. Congressional oversight? IN PROGRESS.

Should I continue or can we agree that www.CleanUpATF.org is a good thing and will go away when ATF is finally cleaned up?

Vincent A. Cefalu

Eleanor, is that you?

Seriously though, lets say that you can get ATF management to agree to stop taking off the head of every agent who dares to disagree with them, sit down with the agents, and start dealing with character and integrity. What agent is going to come out of the shadows and belly-up to that table? That's when they generally lose their heads; when they can be seen. And that would just be the first hurdle.

So here is where I think you are naive at best - you are asking agents to trust that although ATF has been outrageously treacherous for as long as anyone can remember, and tracherous with unbelievable consistency; that THIS is the time they are going to stand up and say, "ok we really, really mean it now. If you come out of the shadows, we will not take off your heads. Really".

One can not trust their career, pension, marriage, children's college, and sanity to these same people who are simply saying AGAIN, "really, trust us".

Specifically, how would you suggest getting that little problem out of the way?

[Jay Dobyns]

You're suggestion to "quit and prepare a resume" are the means and methods of sissys. You suggest that somehow by exposing the corruption at ATF, we have "damaged" ATF. It is the corruption itself that is ruining ATF, not those who shine the light on it. If everyone followed your suggestion then guns would still be passing through ATF operations into Mexico, Agents, Mexican cops and civilians would be murdered with no accountability. The self-righteous leadership would still be sitting pretty with no pressure on them to tell the truth.

How can those that are sick of the corrupt double-standards of ATF improve anything by just leaving? It doesn't sound like you want the status quo to remain, but then in the next sentence, it sounds like you do.

If you or anyone you cared about had suffered the way the way many of us have you would be encouraging the exposure and accountability instead of asking everyone to stick their heads in the sand and pretend like it isn't happening. Our agency is in ruin but no person I have spoken to at ATF wants it to be vanquished. We just want ATF to get back to doing what we do without having to cheat and break the law and then cover it up and lie about it.

ATF is not in trouble because people have spoken out, but because people like you have been content to allow corruption to continue.

Please don't say that there is "another means to address the problems". Every conceivable method was attempted on multiple occasions and all we ever got was a blind eye and a deaf ear. Instead of telling us to run away, which solves nothing other than making things personally easier for you, tell us how to get some reform. We are all ears and will use any reasonable suggestion to try and get things fixed.

Chainsaw, please keep posting here. I do not agree with your "solution", but I am always willing to hear anyone out, regardless of whether I like what they.

For me personally, I challenge you to find a single public or private statement I have made that suggests "all of ATF is bad". Never have and never will. I have spilled blood for ATF and with many of the great agents and supervisors you brag on. Our leadership is the problem and the efforts of this site have only tried to expose that.

I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Chainsaw, your opinion is noted. However, let's try to focus on facts. You suggest WE are hurting the Agency. WE ARE THE AGENCY. We have not perpetrated the unethical and illegal acts. We did not plan or implement any of them. Your bosses who you are apparently defending did. Your ATF attorneys have created this entire situation. We have merely exhausted ALL legal means to stop it. I'm sorry if exposing PROVEN integrity lapses at the highest level of ATF leadership messes up your cushy GO ALONG TO GET ALONG $100,000 A YEAR GIG. But this ends NOW.

Chainsaw, your points have logic, reason and common sense and that is why they make no sense in dealing with ATF. There is none of that in the management of ATF. You are not expected to understand. You are reprimanding agents who have spent 10, 20, 25 some 30 years in this agency. The posts of the "discontented" are harsh but what is your alternate suggestion? You need to understand the many of those you label as "pea brained rejects" and "discontented empoloyees" are the same people you praise a sentence or two later for hard work and long convictions.

You suggest to those that complaint to quit. Your final line, "Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted." That is nearly word for word what ATF Group Supervisor Jeff Voth wrote to his agents in Phoenix when they complained that the Fast and Furious gunwalking program was illegal and unethical. Interesting your choice of solution.

[retired1811]

Since ATF became a bureau in 1972 every 15-20 years an incident like is now happening occurs. I went through two of them. If I where to guess the outcome it would be this.

ATF will remain as a bureau because the FBI(or any other federal agency)does not want you and the NRA does not want to get rid of you. You will get a new outside director that will announce ATF is going for quality cases and not quantity. That is management speak for no cases, no problems. There will be very tight guidelines on getting approval to do an original case and you will not be able to meet those guidelines. You will notice that ATF is not hiring any new agents. You will notice that more ATF agents are being put on other agencies task forces (to be helpers). You will notice that more agents in case producing positions are being assigned to non-case producing positions. State and local officers will still have coffee with you and laugh at your jokes but you will notice that they don't call you as much as they used to. You will hear through the grapevine that FBI agents have shown up at FFL locations and have told them to call the FBI when they suspect straw purchases.

[Winston Smith]

It is deplorable to think a select few have done so many nasty things to so many hard-working employees and received so little in terms of consequences. At the very least, Congress needs to intervene and revise our agency's disciplinary and accountability measures for GS 14's and up. Supervisors must receive serious consequences for violations of regs, poor decisions and other questionable actions, to include mandatory reduction in grade. Send 'em back to the field when they screw up. Supervisors with sustained findings of sexual harrassment and worse must be removed immediately. Our agency's Internal Affairs unit must also be restructured - stop putting those who were known as weak investigators into the unit, and stop retaliating against vocal critics. Senior Special Agents with strong investigative creds should be assigned as "street" GS 14's to conduct IAD cases.

Till then, let's all keep working hard to put bad guys in jail, and maintain those great working relationships with the locals and prosecutors.

[Chainsaw]

I have to agree with ATFSA, you people are doing more to make the entire agency look bad than you are toward getting the management cleaned up. The general public doesn't know any difference between an SES, SAC, ASAC, RAC and a POA. It would appear from reading most of the posts on this blog that ATF is just a bunch of pea-brained rejects who couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag. I happen to know otherwise and believe that ATF is filled with top notch criminal investigators, who work extremely hard and work better cases which end up with more bad guys in prison for longer periods of time than several other federal law enforcement agencies combined....this is accomplished with a smaller budget and fewer agents than the other federal agencies have. The posts of you discontented employees only serve to give ammunition to those who wish to see ATF go by the wayside. Perhaps none of you have thought of this, maybe the best way to improve ATF would be for those of you who aren't happy working for ATF to quit and find a job elsewhere. Instead of all the complaining and whining, maybe your energy and time could be more wisely invested by getting your resume up to date and applications submitted.

[Cool Hand]

Well. I am yet another one of the agents fighting for change and reform in this organization. I know what it is to say "no" in the face of "improper, illegal or immoral decisions"...and to suffer swift character assassination, harassment, retaliation, hostility, etc, by ATF executives. I personally know what it is to the do the right thing and to suffer the consequences. I have worked through the proper channels. I have made my recommendations for improvement. I have had the one-on-one meetings with DADs, ADs, DDs, and Directors and the unanimous response was irreversable career dammage. The funny thing is that I remain open to some sort of productive dialogue with leadership. Unfortunately there has been no real "leadership" to have dialogue with.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

atfsa,

Your ideas fundamentally look good in writing.

However, I can honestly say that I tried EVERY conventional method you talk about, and some you may have not known about. If you discover a serious problem (i.e., illegal acts or violations of law/regulation by GS-15s or above), and you have the evidence -- you will not be treated well.

For over ten years I tried the following avenues:

Talked with ASACs, SACs, DADLE, HQ Division Chiefs, ATF Ombudsmen, ATF Legal Counsels, Employee Assistance Program -- I got nowhere. In fact, I suffered continued and accelerated intimidation and retaliation from some of these individuals -- which I eventually settled (before trial).

Utilized the ATF EEO counselors at Division level, and HQ level to resolve intimidation and retaliation. They merely supplied my information to the offenders. When my complaints went formal and denied -- I appealed, and the EEOC ruled that I had suffered retaliation, intimidation and ordered ATF to go back and do a proper investigation as required by law. (ATF did not do as ordered and continued to increase retaliation)

Contacted ATF Internal Affairs -- twice. I was intimidated and suffered personal character assassination. Twice, I contacted the Office of Inspector General to report the incompetence and abuse practiced by ATF Internal Affairs investigators (intimidating employees to prevent exposing the malfeasance caused by GS-15 and executive staff). Eventually an official report was submitted to the Director of ATF to make corrections, which were ignored.

GAO conducted an extensive investigation of my repeated efforts to work within the established rules/regulations/avenues, concluding that ATF EEO, Internal Affairs and executive managers were working together to intimidate complainants/witnesses, and deny employees rights.

The issues that I brought to the attention of senior ATF managers were situations that threatened the safety of law enforcement officers, employees and the public. I wasn't just whining about minor issues. I could not sleep at night, knowing that some of these issues were not corrected or handled.

I ended up in federal court, MSPB and EEOC. After years of continued retaliation and intimidation -- and over $50,000 of unrecovered legal fees, I could no longer work for ATF. Even though I settled each case, I realized that I could not "fix"the problem by myself. ATF legal counsel knows this, and will wear you down with ridiculous delays and extended legal costs. Forget about Alternate Dispute Resolutions -- as ATF uses them as another form to intimidate and prolong your continuing legal costs.

atfsa, let me tell you for a fact: If you use the ATF system that is in place, you are working with a stacked deck. If you uncover or reveal a serious/illegal situation involving one of the ATF anointed ones, you better prepare yourself and your family to suffer terrible consequences. The more serious the ATF problem, and the better your evidence -- you will be assaulted with character assassinations, monetary losses, humiliation, and you will be isolated -- and this will go on for years, until you leave or they fire you. NOT fair to your family, but it happens.

[atfsa]

With the ultimate goal of saving ATF, I suggested banding together and attempting to improve ATF in-house in a more professional manner rather than continuously throwing the agency under the bus, releasing false allegations about an outstanding investigation, and making the entire agency appear to the world that we are incompetent overall. I even suggested using this forum to promote causes, promote ATF successes, exchange information, and encourage experienced agents to move into management and personally make a difference to improve this agency. I stand behind my post despite the negative and cynical replies. I want to see this agency improve, expand, and survive, but I truly get the feeling by the replies that some people in this great agency have just thrown in the towel. In reply to my post, I get called "ATFSES", "naive", "delusional", "lost and out of touch", etc. Are these replies truly the spirit of this website when an ATF street level peer suggests an alternative to improve this agency? Is that not our common goal? For those who have thrown in the towel, please ask yourselves what you did personally to try to improve this agency. Did you truly try anything other than listen to what others have done and then complain about it? I know that plenty of people have exposed themselves with ATF management and I admire their courage and attempts. However, I doubt that all potentially productive efforts have been exhausted. I will go a step further with my posting and volunteer to be the next street level agent to personally approach ATF management in an attempt to effectively and professionally give the street level employees a voice in an overall attempt to improve matters. For those who have replied that you are all ears and encourage such efforts, then I'll get us jumpstarted but I ask for your help. I do not have all of the answers myself, but I guarantee that if we get enough of us together to discuss options, discuss street level concerns, and iron this out, then we will come up with a feasible, productive alternative to throwing in the towel, publicly bashing this agency, and greatly risking the abolishment of ATF. It’s should be more about attempting to get solutions to a problem rather than making the problem worse. I already have some good ideas, and I want input from anyone else who would support this alternative effort (don't worry I won't ask those who have thrown in the towel and/or only wants to bash this effort and the agency). However, I am certainly not going to work through this process in a public forum for the world to see. So, anyone interested in supporting this alternative approach and anyone who wants input in exposing issues, addressing those issues, and suggesting solutions to those issues, then please send me a message or email, and feel free to remain anonymous. And, to the poster who suggested that I go fix ATF my way and those participating here will do it “our way” – good luck with that and let me know how it works out.

[CI***]

I hope that the agents inside ATF understand that if Perry runs and wins it will be the end of the ATF. He has no love for ATF. My bet is they will get cleaned up by elimination. ATF duties will go to OGA and states. From the outside it is easy to see the writing on the wall. Our local DA has asked the Police and Sheriff to stop all cases with ATF and to notify the local FBI office of the change. Just saying.

[limestonenerd]

atfsa, lets remember that everyone said fast and furious was made up to. the very people you are defending insisted it didn't happen. highlight what successes? the failures are some imensely overshadowing of anything good that is done who is going to notice? should we publicize a good case and hope that it outshines the murders of fandf? epic had it right, you are lost and out of touch with the here and now reality of atf.

[Zorro]

Others have come forward and asked to keep the corruption in-house, but were short on ideas on how to eliminate it without bringing pressure from outside. I think it's safe to say that most of the employees who post here would like nothing mnore than to stop as that would mean some professionalism has been attained.

"We're all ears".

[apostate]

ATFSES I mean ATFSA

The only way to change ATF is to:

-Enter management and try to change policies and management decisions.
But the promotion process is so corrupted that competent honest hard working agents are shut out of the promotion process. It is a well-known fact that certain groups and individuals are given the answers and cheat sheets before attending the Assessment Center. Many very good agents have been given low scores at the assessment center because there come from the wrong background. Agents now know the AC is so corrupt they do not even bother putting in for it. ASAC assessment test scores were retroactively just lowered to get certain people into management according to good sources. The entire system is so corrupt it is not even funny anymore. What happened last Fall with ATF's secret hiring process? OPM policies require the general public be notified and ATF ignored this. Why did ATF lower the standards at the academy for recent secret hired classes? Will this improve ATF or give ATF an entire new set of future management rejects? Please respond ATFSA

-Speak out and offer suggestions and try and stop illegal, dangerous management actions. It think Vince, Jay, Dodson and others just did this. Look how management treated them. Vince is without a job. There are quite a few senior agents all over ATF now being terminated due to minor infractions. I mean really minor while management commits major violations, fraud and they are promoted. And how can you defend the promotion of glory hole?

Why did JT just reveal ATF law enforcement sensitive uc techniques and practices to the public? If I had any CI's I would deactivate them immediately because I would no longer feel I could guarantee their safety. How many good experienced agents have left ATF under JT?

Many very good experienced good agents all over the country are looking to leave ATF now and know one is stopping them. Typical SAC/ASAC answer when he/she hears that an ATF agent is leaving for another agency is "Good we don't want you" No wonder so many are leaving now.

How does one improve ATF? Please be specific and don't use the standard reply "By doing good cases" A typical ATF agent does the work of 6-8 FBI agents now with no support from management and gets no credit. Many agents, IOI's in ATF come from military and local law enforcement backgrounds and possess very strong moral characters and an ingrained sense of right and wrong. That is why they are so pissed off when they witness ATF mgt fraud, criminal behavior and bad management practices with zero consequences.

The policies and orders of some in upper ATF mgt has escalated and just resulted in the lost lives of brave fed LEO's just like in Waco.

Should ATF agents IOI's just be silent and allow more deaths?

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

I and most of those who post on here agree with you 100%. You tell us the proper way to engage management that is so corrupt and unethical? You tell us where we are to air our dirty laundry when EVERY SES manager on the fifth floor ignores our complaints and suggestions? You tell us where to go when Chief Counsel is insistent on protecting criminal acts by senior mangers and attack the Finest Agents in the world. You tell us where and who to get accountability so the Larry Fords, Steve Martins, Mike Gleysteens, Billy Hoovers Mark Chaits, Bill McMahons, Vanessa Mclemores, Elenor Loos', Rachel Boumans,Bill Newells and George Gillettes (and those unnamed) of this world are Never allowed to place this agency's very existence in question EVER again. If you do that with any reasonable and PROVEN effective measure of success, I will stop posting today.

I recently published a post entitled, “Operation Castaway”, which provides the truth of that Tampa Division investigation and prosecution in hopes of preventing the new falsehoods from snowballing out of control. I understand the “credible” source who leaked the false information to an anti-ATF rumor-mill blog, as well as most people on this site, hope to make positive changes for ATF, which is a noble cause that I embrace, but I am extremely concerned with some of the methods utilized and some of the blog sites that they align themselves with in attempting to accomplish this task. Please do some research on the individuals and organizations that we think are doing us a favor by allowing our voices to be heard, and if your goals truly are to improve the condition and management of this agency, then perhaps better forums should be explored. I believe this public ATF "improvement" experiment has snowballed out of control into widespread agency trash-talk, rumor spreading, bashing, and backstabbing, and a lot of employees are jumping on the bandwagon. Again, I support your cause, but I truly believe that airing out agency dirty laundry, throwing the agency under the bus, and publishing false, detrimental information about agency investigations / operations for the world to see will end up having potentially devastating, unexpected results... and it must stop. We all know (so I hope) that ATF is the greatest agency in the world with the best criminal investigators on Earth, and this agency should grow, strive, expand, and improve into the future (even recently fired Vince Cefalu wrote the same thing this week). However, the more we bash ourselves to the world the more incompetent we appear overall, and I would confidently believe that Congress would likely decide to abolish us rather than trying to replace all of the mid to upper management personnel, which seems to be the intended message of this website. I even read a few posts recently that some agents are on USAjobs looking for new jobs. Seriously guys? That's not the solution either... It's time to band together in a better manner than to continue to utilize the potentially disastrous techniques currently being employed by some, and this website can continue to serve its original purpose to promote causes, exchange information, and encourage experienced agents to move into management and personally make a difference to improve this agency, rather than continuously complain and publish untruths in hopes that someone else will make a difference for us. Let's be the professionals we truly are, and proceed a bit more professional towards our goals.

[atfsa]

I recently published a post entitled, “Operation Castaway”, which provides the truth of that Tampa Division investigation and prosecution in hopes of preventing the new falsehoods from snowballing out of control. I understand the “credible” source who leaked the false information to an anti-ATF rumor-mill blog, as well as most people on this site, hope to make positive changes for ATF, which is a noble cause that I embrace, but I am extremely concerned with some of the methods utilized and some of the blog sites that they align themselves with in attempting to accomplish this task. Please do some research on the individuals and organizations that we think are doing us a favor by allowing our voices to be heard, and if your goals truly are to improve the condition and management of this agency, then perhaps better forums should be explored. I believe this public ATF "improvement" experiment has snowballed out of control into widespread agency trash-talk, rumor spreading, bashing, and backstabbing, and a lot of employees are jumping on the bandwagon. Again, I support your cause, but I truly believe that airing out agency dirty laundry, throwing the agency under the bus, and publishing false, detrimental information about agency investigations / operations for the world to see will end up having potentially devastating, unexpected results... and it must stop. We all know (so I hope) that ATF is the greatest agency in the world with the best criminal investigators on Earth, and this agency should grow, strive, expand, and improve into the future (even recently fired Vince Cefalu wrote the same thing this week). However, the more we bash ourselves to the world the more incompetent we appear overall, and I would confidently believe that Congress would likely decide to abolish us rather than trying to replace all of the mid to upper management personnel, which seems to be the intended message of this website. I even read a few posts recently that some agents are on USAjobs looking for new jobs. Seriously guys? That's not the solution either... It's time to band together in a better manner than to continue to utilize the potentially disastrous techniques currently being employed by some, and this website can continue to serve its original purpose to promote causes, exchange information, and encourage experienced agents to move into management and personally make a difference to improve this agency, rather than continuously complain and publish untruths in hopes that someone else will make a difference for us. Let's be the professionals we truly are, and proceed a bit more professional towards our goals.