Read the complete sentences bro. I said IF, then you are a moron. Its your kind of linear thinking that insures failed or marginalized cases. Take his guns, (as you recall almost ALL of the straw purchasers guns had already been traced to violence in Mexico)(Remember Voth and Gillette bragging via email?)(and a few eggs comment?). I said Halfway to PC. READ SLOWLY. Make him and his attorney come in and explain why he makes $15000 a year and just bought $70,000 worth of guns. What do you like the chances you'll EVER hear from that guys again? Hein endith the lesson. I don't have time to school you. However, YOUR opinions are always welcome. BUT do not represent your opinion for fact. There is more line agent and Inspector glorifying that goes on day to day on this website than you can shake a stick at. WE LOVE ATF. We do however take exception to our veteran Agents being fired for nonsense,while perverted bosses are sticking their "Johnsons" through plywood in government quarters are getting promoted.Why do you think we have all laid our asses on the line to get it right. Blame the corrupt and inept managers for the chaos we are experiencing. NOT those who are trying to hold them accountable. Let me rephrase my earlier. I do NOW think you are a moron. You may feel free to remove the IF.

Vince,
If this is loving ATF, I would hate to see you mad at ATF. So, the guy refuses to talk with you and you confront him and he stops trafficking guns. This has been standard policy for years. No charges. This is the reality of the situation. I don't want to get into anymore of the reality of the situation than that, but it isn't like we see a guy who looks like he is trafficking and we can go arrest him. We use to have the luxury of putting the fear of god into this guys, but with the violence of the cartels, things have changed. I am only trying to acknowledge that the world has changed over the past 20 years. I thought this would actually be an interesting discussion. Sorry for trying to add a point that you don't agree with. I would bet that there is a little more bad mouthing ATF every day on this site than GLORIFYING LINE AGENTS and Inspectors. Good luck. I hope you win you appeal.

So difficult to tell why our credibitliy is shot.

If you make a mistake, accept it - own it - correct it - learn from it - improve. No problem.

Lie, get caught in the lie, deny the existence of the lie.... a few people outside the DC beltway view that as unacceptable behavior so all hell breaks loose.

Life is so complicated.

Thanks Zorro,
Great Post. Hopefully ATF will someday learn this lesson.

First off WHERE DID I SAY that everyone in the ATF was a criminal? I submit that you need to learn to READ and pay attention because I never even suggested anything of the sort...but entirely opposite of that. So where are you coming up with that crap?
If youre not saying that I was doing so, then what the hell are you going on about?
My post was NOT slamming anything and if you could actually pay attention you would have figured that out. If anything Ive tried NOT to slam the ATF even though in many ways it deserves it.

So...lets say someone buys 100 guns tomorrow. What is the remedy YOU are suggesting?
You seem to be implying overall that you should have free reign to do whatever regardless of our rights. Is that what youre getting at?

Nice use of passive aggressive. Next time, try "bless their heart"before saying something nice about ATF. My point is it is your right to buy 100 guns. PERIOD. ATF walks a fine line everyday. Pay attention to my post. ATF doesn't need anymore laws. PERIOD. You go on about defunding ATF without taking the time to discuss the problems they encounter. I think very few agents outside those directly involved knew what was going on. I just get tired on the slamming of ATF and that the american public thinks we need to be defunded. Fine. Give the gun laws to the FBI. ATF does not need anymore power or laws. We are underfunded and understaffed and we still do more than most other big federal agencies.

Check this out Truthteller,
If I gleaned from your posting that there is ANY justification to what occurred in Phoenix, you are either a moron, a current go along to get along manager, or have absolutely NO knowledge of the tools in our arsenal. I have worked ALMOST exclusively firearms trafficking cases and UC ops for my entire career. I am proud to have worked in Atlanta, (admittedly one of the heaviest source States in the Country) and not ONCE did we ever intentionally or knowingly let a firearms slip into the hands of a criminal through a "legal" straw purchaser. You clearly do not understand Terry, Escabedo, Miranda and the Federal rules of criminal procedure. Set down the mail order law book and journey with me into the real world for just a moment. First, if somebody is purchasing 100 semi-automatic rifles on the southwest border and doesn't present his FFL to the seller, you are halfway to PC. That stands for probable cause. Then you do what we ATF Agents call, INVESTIGATE. I really don't have time to break it down for you. However after my dispute with the agency is settled I will give you my email address and I will be glad to share techniques with you NOT on an open forum. Finally, 5 guns is a mistake. 20 guns is a big mistake. 2000 guns is a reckless and dangerous abuse of authority and an obstruction of justice. Stop defending the indefensible. Apparently you haven't gotten the memo that we have lied, concealed and manipulated and withheld the truth from Congress. I am in my 31st year as a badge totin, gun totin law enforcement Agent. I cant think of ONE, (while I'm sure they may be one), time I have lost an appeal, had a case overturned or was successfully sued over a 2nd amendment issue. That's the courts job. Stop whining about the big bad NRA wont let us do our job, and go do it. I don't care what the NRA, GOA or any other partisan group thinks or doesn't think about the laws we enforce. They are the law of the land until Congress changes it. Its a convenient excuse that they wont let us do our job. I have NEVER been hindered, and that statement is supported by an ATF 100% conviction rate over 24 years.

So, rather than address the points I made, you call me a moron. Nice. So if someone buys 100 guns that is PC. PC for what? Your honor, I need a search warrant because someone bought 20 guns. Seriously. So it is a crime to buy too many guns. No. It might make you want to investigate a little. What if he tells you to pound sand and won't talk. So far, you have an individual who bought 20 guns legally, refuses to talk with you and no guns have ever come back on a trace. Your next step is to give him a letter explain dealing without a license, not a search warrant. Next month you have the same guy buy another 10 guns. You go talk to him and he say "NO". Under your statement that is Probable Cause. Seriously?? All you have is a US citizen who purchased 30 guns legally and won't talk to you. Last time I checked it is his legal right to buy guns. Who am I to say how many? If I won the lottery, the list of guns I would buy would be mind boggling. It isn't like it was 20 years ago when the mexican nationals were scared of law enforcement. I am not trying to defend what happened in Phoenix. I know several agents who were there on the GRIT and had no idea what was going on. I can't find any excuse to tell a dealer to make a sale he isn't comfortable with. But I don't think it is right to call everyone in ATF a criminal without understanding the facts. I do see this kind of stunt done in Phoenix being used by the anti-gun lobby to tighten up the gun laws. The last thing ATF needs is anymore laws. We have plenty and not enough people to enforce them. I was only trying to point out some simple facts that seem to have been lost in the slam ATF postings. The point of this site was to bring to light the problems with ATF, not bad mouth every agent working the streets. Or am I wrong?

I would say that I think the ATF does 'suck' in a lot of ways...but probably because of what has been explained by Sandy.
I dont know if ATF folk understand this or not, but there is a lot of call for defunding of the ATF entirely.
If something doesnt happen to get upper mgt in line soon it may well become the main priority of 80 million gun owners to get the ATF shut down.
Right now as things stand I have to say Id be for such an effort. Especially seeing that at a time when ATF should being laying low for a while, they instead are trying to bring about MORE rules and regulations that ONLY affect the law abiding.
If things change for the better, however, and ATF becomes what it should be, my views could be changed pretty easily.
Law abiding gun owners like myself have had pretty much all we're willing to take. Every moron who gets into the White house seems to either declare war on us....or pull some underhanded crap that we dont find out about until after the fact (Obama and the Korean M1's comes to mind, not to mention the attempt to destroy a lot of used military brass last year or so).
We appreciate the good guys in the ATF, but if things dont change something is going to have to be done to get the ATF out of the picture altogether....which defunding probably would accomplish.

I certainly dont mean to bash or anything...but Im really just as sick of opening up yahoo.com every other day and seeing some news article that is telling some story about how law abiding gun owners are somehow a threat and need to be disarmed.

I obey the law to the letter. I have perfect credit. I dont litter, dont speed and wear my seatbelt every time. Id say I obey the law better than most cops do. Im courteous to other drivers and everyone I meet...yet somehow *I* end up being painted as a bad guy just because I own some a couple shotguns and a couple revolvers. Its a real pain in the arse sometimes. I feel like we have to watch every damned move Obama and others make to keep them from either openly trying to destroy our rights...or pulling some underhanded nonsense like this UN treaty that has no chance of passing now anyway.
Where does it stop? When do we go after the BAD guys and leave the good guys alone?

Seriously! Enough! 99.9% of everything ATF does is good and serves the people. We strive to protect the 2nd amendment. We put extremely bad people in jail. But we also walk a fine line protecting the 2nd amendment and at the same time enforcing the gun laws. What really happened down in Phoenix still hasn't been reported. I was told that on four occasions agents tried to get a federal search warrant to recover guns sitting in a suspected traffickers safe house after watching the location for over 90 days. Sorry, judge said no. The guns were legally purchased and no crime had occurred. No arrests could occur till they tried to cross the border, if they ever did. Here is another little fact I just learned. Most of the agents who were done there on the GRIT didn't even know what was going on with the wire or that there was even a wire to begin with. Agents in Mexico didn't know. Agents in California didn't know. Agents in Texas didn't know. Here is another little fact. A large number of ATF agents came over from Border Patrol. ATF gets bashed for stuff they don't even do. Yes, agencies make mistakes. Fine with me if you give the gun laws to the FBI. The NRA will never let that happen. A weak and beaten ATF is what the gun lobby wants. I am not a fan of ATF management - period. I think Obama wants ATF gone so he can give the gun laws to the FBI. You leave out the little stories about the big FBI screw ups and attribute them to ATF. Unfortunately, when this is all over and the complete truth comes out, it will be too late for the true story to be reported. ATF missed their chance to tell their side of the story. Here is my one question for you. I know you won't answer it, but dance around. A suspected gun trafficker goes into a gun store and passes the NICS check and wants to buy 100 assault type weapons. What should the ATF agent do? It is his legal right to buy as many guns as he wants. He refuses to explain himself. The purchase is legal. Now what???? They aren't afraid of law enforcement anymore. The cartel will actually cut them into little pieces if they talk. They move the guns around for several months and split them into several stashes. No tracker will last that long. Now what???

Yes we had a Comm Center that was operating 24 hours. If you were an employee of ATF, you would know that. Ask any Agent working a high profile case back in the day -- there were two or three Agents that had to man the Comm Center at HQ. We use to have hotlines that came into the Comm Center and were answered 24 hours a day. And yes, Conroy was at the HQ Comm Center -- which wasn't a bad thing for the DADLE to be doing. He was fully aware of what was transpiring.

Also, some Agents did have cell phones at Waco. Investigators determined a least one citizen was monitoring cell phones and picked up a conversation of an Agent pertaining to raid preparation (either in route or the day before). Hense, we are now careful about cell phones, monitoring devices, etc.

Yep, back then you could get your 13 for spending a year at the Comm Center and it was typically manned by one person, not three. But it wasn't high tech constant monitoring. Hell, our radios barely worked. Encryption killed the range. Yes, a very few agents had cell phones, but the person monitoring the cell phones was a reporter, not a citizen. The AUSA wanted to charge him, but wasn't allowed. It is hard to tell who was where or heard what. Shoot, Royster did remember anything for several months. The point being it was this high tech center. It was a bare minimum operation. People need to remember the lack of technology we had back then. Not much.

I beg to differ with you about HQ not knowing what was going on in Waco before/during/after the raid. The fact that there was no "Plan B"in the raid plan approved by HQ tells volumes. In fact, a couple of days after the raid, a "Plan B"was inserted to cover up the fact that HQ was going to do the raid no matter what.

Also, at the time the raid was going down, wasn't DADLE Conroy in the HQ Communication Center, listening to the real-time moment by moment? The raid did not occur in a vacuum.

This type of discussion is only relevant when you examine how ATF Senior Mgt handles situations that produce negative results or bad press. There is a scramble to modify/destroy evidence and to point the finger at a sacrifical lamb, i.e. Street Agent.

Hence, when questioned by Congress, you will not get a straight answer from Senior Mgt to 1) Who thought of this plan? 2) Who approved this plan? 3) How much money was spent on this plan and who has been involved with the approval of the funds?

Guys,
Communication center? 1993? real-time moment by moment? Few people had cell phones. I am not defending management. You are just giving HQ too much credit. I don't disagree with your other points.

Zorro, I think there's another possibility; if HQ actually did have something to do with the push to hurry up and go on with the raid to make a big media splash in spite of having lost the element of surprise, and that is simple denial on the part of many agents. What agent wants to believe that four agents and many innocent children were killed because of this? It's almost too horrific to even contemplate.

Let me clear this point up once and for all. One of the requirements to main treasury for the search warrant to go forward was the element of surprise. The SACs and ASACs on the ground in Waco never informed HQ that they had lost the element of surprise. They thought they could still do the warrant. Did the amount of money already spent cross their mind? Probably. Most likely the biggest factor was no one had ever fired on law enforcement like that before. HQ got involved afterwards with the lie that we hadn't lost the element of surprise. This was not a media thing. It was two days after the first World Trade Center bombing. It was believed that no national attention would be given to this warrant. They were probably right. If the warrant had gone as planned, no one would have noticed. They didn't send a media team out. It was just PIO Sharon Wheeler for the Dallas Field DIvision.

The real comparison here is what has happened afterwards. Getting in front of your mistakes and taking responsibility for your actions. They don't even teach WACO at the academy anymore and few people are left in ATF that were there and know what really went on.

Sorry Truth, I read your post as if you were implying that Weaver refused to show up for court, which would have been very misleading. I can see now that you were merely saying because he wasn't in court, an arrest warrant was issued. Again sorry - internet miscommunication and I admittedly take an occasional pharmaceutical when I deal with anything that is ATF related.

Who is Roosenhoover? And since he's already marked, do you think he would post on here? I would sincerely like to hear from someone who had first-hand knowledge of Waco events who could defend your theory, which I know is held by many of the agents who were there. This is actually the theory that I would prefer to believe, and if true, I think it is important to have out there for the public to have access to. Sadly, much of the public does judge the agents in light of the corruption at the top.

Sandy,
You sure do have that right. And like most things, you are judge by your mistakes, not your successes. We truly have some of the best agents in all federal law enforcement. Underfunded, understaffed and lacking leadership. Still, ATF agents put more people in prison per agent than any other federal agency. Risenhoover is listed in the directory. Good luck.

It's not that simple Truth. Here's the official Justice Dept Report: http://www.justice.g...ortcover_39.pdf . You don't have to read any further than the first page to see why Weaver didn't show up to court. Many in the public have read this report and know what's in it. If we on this site misrepresent the facts, which you just did, the public will start to see the agents as indistinguishable from HQ. When that happens, ATF will not survive and we will have let all the good in this agency be destroyed by a few at the top and our own ignorance. And to add insult to injury the Randy Weavers will be seen as the victims.

I think ATF agents have a responsibility to know the facts of our history before they hostilely comment on them. And defending mistakes out of ignorance, while at the same time writing off anyone who dares mention these mistakes as a nut, makes us look just like the managers we are all so repulsed by . I do not want to see the best agents in the world thrown out with the bath water and left to follow some FBI agent around all day as a flunky. Alienate the public through ignorance of facts while at the same time calling them crazy makes that nightmare scenario all the more likely. And believe me, the public is reading this site.

No one in the non-criminal public has more contact with ATF than the FFLs, who have apparently been horribly victimized themselves. Many FFLs are business leaders in our communities and they tend to be extremely savvy about ATF's history. They are also all over this site. Do we really want them going out into the community and telling people that the agents aren't any better than the liars running the agency?

'Those who do not know their history are destined to repeat it' comes to mind, except that in ATF's case, the agency may not be left standing to repeat anything.

Sandy,
Again, I don't see where I am not quoting fact. DOJ OIG REPORT Page 2, Section B - B. Significant Findings

In October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF

informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as

an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver

refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government

indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no

evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because

of his religious or political beliefs. Similarly, we found

insufficient evidence to sustain the charge that Weaver was

illegally entrapped into selling the weapons.

When Weaver was arraigned on the weapons charges in January

1991, he was told that his trial would commence on February 19,

1991. Two weeks later, the court clerk notified the parties that

the trial date had been changed to February 20, 1991. Shortly

thereafter, the U.S. Probation Office sent Weaver a letter which

incorrectly referenced his trial date as March 20, 1991. After

Weaver failed to appear for trial on February 20, the court

issued a bench warrant for his arrest. Three weeks later, on

March 14, a federal grand jury indicted Weaver for his failure to

appear for trial. We found that: the government, especially the

USAO, was unnecessarily rigid in its approach to the issues

created by the erroneous letter; that the USAO improvidently

sought an indictment before March 20, 1991; and that the USAO

erred in failing to inform the grand jury of the erroneous

letter.

I am not defending ATF out of ignorance. We have done plenty of stupid stuff without being accused of doing thing we didn't do. Ruby Ridge was a tragedy. I would have been amazed if Weaver had been convicted for the ATF charges after losing a son and wife. I think we all can say there is no crime in the world to justify what happened on that mountain. ATF was manning the road blocks. Let's stick with facts. Call Risenhoover if you have questions about Waco. HQ has already said he is a marked for complaining about the money wasted on NIBIN.

I have to agree with SD - entrenched behavior like we are witnessing does not materialize overnight. IMO, it has been a culmination of no accountability for years, even decades. Lack of consequences for Ruby/Waco and any number of lesser known scandals likely created the breeding ground that brought about F&F.

In a previous post, I falsely attributed the recently exhibited brash actions to "guts" but upon further reflection I believe it comes from operating in a vacuum so long that any sense of right and wrong has dissipated (if it ever existed). These people don't understand that their behavior is unacceptable to professional co-workers, taxpayers, and congress any more than a child understands a stove is hot before being burned.

Again, we are getting into the "crazy". Ruby Ridge? We bought sawed-off shotguns from Weaver. Simple case, not much jail time. Arrested him without incident. Weaver makes bail (only looking a probation) and goes into the mountains. Doesn't show up for court and writes the judge letters. USMS goes up into the mountains to scout out the area and everything goes horrible wrong. A Deputy Marshal gets killed, Weaver's young son gets killed. FBI HRT shows up and another tragedy occurs and Weaver's wife gets killed. ATF manned the road blocks.



This is the problem a lot of people have with this site. I agree we should stay on topic and concentrate on what is wrong with ATF. We do enough stupid stuff that we don't need to be blamed for crap we didn't do.

Never in my career have I seen such extreme contempt and outright disdain for the U.S. Congress and their obvious intent in the GCA and Gun-owners Protection Act as I see in the below email generated by the AD and DAD of Enforcement Programs and Services. When did ATF become partisan and political taking a stance FOR or AGAINST the laws and regulations we are expected to enforce without bias or prejudice? At least be quietly professional or express your opinions in private as a private citizen. NOT IN A GOVERNMENT ATRIUM, ON GOVERNMENT TIME WITH GOVERNMENT RESOURCES. Have we solved violent crime in this country to the extent that we can party for championing OUR or ANY administrations agenda? You Ms. Ficaretta and Mr. Herbert are an outright embarrassment and do not truly understand who and what we have taken an oath to. WE DON'T TAKE SIDES, EVER.

Not only is this an ill advised concept, as we have no agents or inspectors to ever significantly process that many multiple sales reports, it produces minimal information in relation to cost and wasted time, we could be actually physically intercepting firearms.

From:
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:36 AM
Subject: Rifle Multiple Sale Reporting Program Celebration

Please join us on Wednesday, August 31, at 9:30 a.m., in Conference Room B to celebrate the successful completion of the rifle multiple sale reporting program. Collaboration among many directorates made this program possible, and ______ and I want to recognize and thank all the employees who contributed to our success.

This celebration will be held in connection with our EPS supervisors meeting to be held in the same room beginning at 10am. Please forward this invitation to all the remaining EPS supervisors in Martinsburg. I initially tried to list all their names, but I know I will leave some of the section supervisors out, and our celebration would not be complete without them. ______ and I look forward to seeing you all in Martinsburg.

Only in ATF! We have laid off all the contractors at the tracing center, so there will be no one to do the reporting, tracing or tracking of multiple sales. BUT, we got permission to track multiple sales on assault type weapons on the southwest border. Great, we now have permission to track something, but no one to do the actual work. Are they crazy? I bet the SESs will still get their giant bonuses this year, $15k to $50k. Someone please do something.

ATF"truth"teller
actually, i didn't quote sof - i quoted the ATF employees organization newsletter that SOF POSTED IMAGES OF THE VERY PAGES OF THE COMMENTS and suggested you go review (or even go to the original source if it's still around) and see for yourself

sof ain't no better or worse than any other print media - and i think that was why they simply printed the images or scans of The Lion newsletter (assuming that was the correct newsletter title)

obviously, your goal isn't concerned with the actual facts

Actually Ralph, I am just sick of the crap that comes out of conspiracy nuts. You might want to get back to working with Charlie Sheen on your 9/11 conspiracies. You make up crap and try and say it is fact. Good luck to you and your Unicorn hunting friends.

This is not surprising. ATF tries to get all law enforcement to trace every gun they observe or encounter - for several purposes. From an ATF brochure: "ATF's longstanding position is that investigating the origin of the firearm [a trace] to develop leads to determine if it has been used in a crime constitutes a bona fide law enforcement investigation".

As I understand it, the law only permits ATF traces for bona fide law enforcement investigations. By twisting the meaning, ATF infers that every firearm 'might' have been used in a crime (or 'might' be in the future), therefore every trace is a bona fide law enforcement investigation, and every possible firearm should be traced. (Anybody else see something wrong with this logic?)

Incidentally, through eTrace, each trace performed creates one (or more) firearm and owner registration record at ATF's National Tracing Center. The most recent report indicates over 4 million trace (registration) records have been created and are permanently retained by ATF. Counting dealer out-of-business records, multiple sale reports, suspect guns (as in Fast & Furious), and theft guns, there are several hundred million firearm and firearm owner registration records overall. Now, we'll have the multiple long gun purchase records, too.

ATF’s Gary L. Thomas, in a 2003 United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research paper, referred to the “Gold Standard” of tracing being “web-based registration”, explicitly and consistently forbidden by Congress. Yet, that's exactly what eTrace has turned into. Not to mention that eTrace (and the firearm and owner registration records) can now be accessed world-wide....

Gee, I wonder where all this is leading.....?

Wow! You really took my comments a whole different direction.

Truth, come on, throwing insults at Ralph instead of showing us where he is wrong simply isn't helpful. Please tell us where he is wrong. In all fairness, you did post quite a bit of "shit" yourself about cases you knew nothing about, yet stated your words as if you were stating facts. Then I was accused of "pissing on the graves" of our fallen agents and Michelle Roberts was slandered in your post with the very lies that Hartnett and Higgins spoon fed to you 15 years ago.

Ralph is posting what very much appears to be facts based on the interviews and testimony after Waco. You have been insufferably insulting and still you have not presented any facts.

While I admire your passion and loyalty to our fallen agents, how would getting the facts out on the table, regardless of what they are, be disrespectful to these four men?

And as far as me getting a "raw deal" - now there's a euphemism for you. There is still a man today who was within 5 years of retirement who got fired for testifying for me. It's been 20 years and it still takes my breath away when I think of what he went through and how it changed the course of his life and that of his daughters. I witnessed the pain Michelle Roberts went through as she had her reputation ripped apart across this agency that she loved. I have watched agents almost lose their minds from the stress of the battle as their spouses left them in financial ruin, their fellow agents turned against them, and their attorneys drop the ball in their cases ensuring that in the end, they never did get any vindication.

Truth, I believe your heart is on the right place. It's the location of your head that seems to be the problem.

He is quoting fact that isn't fact. I listened to your argument and thanked you for it. You were there and I didn't dispute your point. I thank you for letting me know the truth about what happened almost twenty years ago. What I can't tolerate is some "expert" who wasn't even there. The reason the supervisors on site lied was one of the requirements to go forward with the raid was the element of surprise. He is quoting things that never happened. He is making up stuff and acting like it is fact. Here is a little piece of fact. I knew the Sheriff and spoke with him personally. I tried to give you a piece of fact and had some nut job start quoting crazy. I work for ATF. I am all full up on crazy.

I wasn't going to respond to your posts but after slamming the media as reliable sources (and i'll agree that the media generally mis-state, mis-quote interviewees for the sake of sensationalizing - hell, i was mis-quoted one time so badly, i vowed never to be interviewed again). But to portray the media in a manner to suggest they never report factually is as bad as what you accuse them of. Then you go on to state "I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing" as if when you use 2nd hand sources, they're legitimate

the information i have is from the C-span recorded testimony at congressional hearings, a TV interview of the sheriff of waco, and lastly from a contact that was called in by both ATF and the FBI that wanted him to provide "independent expert testimony" for them at the congressional hearings. After he reviewed all their evidence, i won't repeat what he said to both agencies (it'd be too inflamatory) but suffice it that he refused to testify on either agencies' behalf. As far as the congressional hearings, they're in the C-span archives online - view them for yourself

a) the sheriff of waco, in that interview stated unequivocably that the actions at Waco amounted to murder, plain & simple. He went on to state that if ATF really believed the davidians had machineguns, why did they send their agents out there in cattle trucks and pull up right in front of the main building???? and that was confirmed in a video tape displayed in the congressional hearings. There was also the audio tape of david koresh calling into the sheriff's office at the very beginning of the raid, just after ATF started shooting at koresh when he stuck his head out the front door, asking for help, asking why they were being fired on, and asking the sheriff to tell the agents that there were children inside. The tone of excitement in his voice told me he wasn't acting - there was real fear and terror in his voice, and it sure gave credibility to the assertions that ATF fired first at Waco. The sheriff actually had tears in his eyes when he was interviewed but you could see the anger behind them. That interview is burnt into my memory.

the sheriff also stated "if ATF wanted to talk to Koresh, or take him in" all they had to do was have him (the sheriff) call koresh in. In the past, whenever there'd be a problem, he'd called david koresh and asked him to come down to the sheriff's office and he would. Or they could have picked him up when he jogged, regularly, early AM - that was from the sheriff's mouth - so don't tell me the sheriff knew less than ATF about koresh's habits.

,
I could go on and on - and you will still push your own set of "facts". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but there's only one set of true facts

There was a publication entitled "THE LION" (don't recall the full title) but apparently a monthly newsletter published by an private organization for ATF personnel. Find the issues from the months after WACO and read the letters written in by retired ATF agents regarding what took place at Waco. Bob Brown, of SOF, published a number of them in his magazine. Not requotes, but actual images of the articles in their original print form.

that's all i am going to say on this subject - the last time you and i got into it, my blood pressure stayed too high for too long. Just recalling Waco raises my BP.

You can defend atf's action at waco all you want, but waco was one of the most disgraceful acts by my gov't that i'm aware of, both on ATF's part and the FBI's. Stating that the negative image of ATF at Waco was only a result of the lies ATF told afterwards is like saying a pig didn't sell for a silk purse cause ATF put the wrong shade of lipstick on it -

Question (rhetorical) : why would ATF need to lie about Waco afterwards, if it was justifiable and they action honorable?

PS - not sure how that icon of a frowning yellow sun with sunglasses got in there - can't seem to remove it -

Ralph,
For someone who quotes SOF, you truly are full of shit. Try and get past the fact the media was successfully sued. Did you ever hear about that?

I have never heard this before, but I can see how it could be confusing. Most everything ATF Law Enforcement does is related to convicted felons having guns or carrying a gun while drug dealing (violent crime). A majority of this is in relation to gang crime (crip, blood, outlaw motorcycle gangs, etc..). I could easily see ATF saying that while executing a search warrant for narcotics or a violent crime, if you come across a gun, you should take it into custody. With a good interview of the suspect, you might be able to prove 924© - carrying a firearms during and in relation to a drug trafficking crime or a crime of violence. That tacks a extra five years on the defendant. You can take almost anything out of context and make it sound either good or bad. I would never advocate taking the gun of a law abiding citizen. I believe it is a constitutional right and must be protected. Convicted felon or drug dealing gang member - we need to remove them from the streets and put them into federal prison for a long time, and yes, take their guns. I hope you get my point. For years, people having be getting half the story about what street agents are doing and it makes it sound like we are taking citizens guns. Most of the agents I know have large firearms collections and love to go shoot. The industry Ops side (dealing with FFLs) is something the agents rarely get involved with. Most all our contacts are positive and we are asking them for help, not trying to regulate them.

And remember, you can only take what is listed in the warrant unless it would be another violation to leave it there. Say, you were doing a warrant for sexual assault and notice a gun in the corner. You realize it is a saw off shotgun and next to it is a pound of cocaine. Should I leave it???

Didn't Wheeler finally admit under oath that she did indeed give a reporter a 'heads-up' after first claiming that she had only gotten contact numbers (per the blue book report or congressional testimony)? My theory is that Hartnett looked around for a big ATF case to offset the bad press that he knew was about to hit. I believe that was the reason that the raid wasn't called off when the element of surprise was lost. Because no one wanted to tell that vile little man he had no clothes on. I'm not throwing wild accusations around about Hartnett. This was exactly how he operated during his tenure at ATF.

I can see Hartnett getting so caught up in his own nasty little games, that he would not stop to think about the lives of his agents before making major decisions. He made a career out of viciously going after agents. It's who he was. It's his motivation concerning the orders that came down after the element of surprise was lost I'm bringing into question. And I also suspect he knew and approved of a reporter being there. My question has alway been why was there such a big rush to charge into the compound? Those people weren't going anywhere. ATF had already lost the element of surprise. Other than ATF leaders wanting a big media splash, what was the rush? I think the critical question is did ATF leaders want the reporter there prior to the raid? And why were there so many lies told? What were they covering up? If they just made a mistake in judgement, why all the lies? I'm sorry, call me jaded, but every time I've seen ATF HQ lying, they were covering-up.

I would like to find out if Wheeler admitted giving the reporter a heads-up. I'll try to find Wheeler's testimony or my copy of the blue book.

Is there anything else about this article's documentation that you feel is bs?

Story goes a lot deeper than that. When ATF started their investigation they quickly discovered that the ex-cult members they were interviewing were also being interviewed by the Waco Tribune Herald. The paper was writing a series on the cult and just how dangerous they were. These ex-cult members informed the paper that ATF was also investigating the group. Finally, a meeting was scheduled with the paper. ATF SACs were there and it was thought that the paper and ATF were in agreement. WRONG. The paper intended to publish their series before the raid, so it would look like their story is what lead to federal action. I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing. So, when ATF made arrangements with the ambulance service, the dispatcher was immediately relaying all information to her boyfriend at the TV station, who was best friends with the guy writing the story for the paper. Every time ATF made a change and let the ambulance service know, all the media was immediately informed. That is why the ambulance service destroyed all their telephone recordings. The paper started their series on a saturday, the worst day of the week for a paper, instead of Sunday. ATF was ignorant to think they could trust the paper. The media was not invited out there that day. This is why the media was sued and lost. The compromise with the Davidians was caused by a lost TV camera man who told a rural postal carrier that the ATF and the national guard were coming and there was coming to be a big shootout. Problem was, the rural postal carrier was the number 2 man in the Davidian compound. After this meeting, the TV camera man left the area and went and hid at his house for the next few days. No one knew what had happened to him. Most of this came out when the defense attorneys went into the compound, but was never reported by the media.

I'm sorry I upset you and I know these wounds run deep, however, in my mind if critical decisions were made by ATF leaders that in some way led to the death of those four agents, I would not be "pissing on their graves", but trying to ensure it doesn't happen again by exposing what I believe to be a pattern of behavior on the part of ATF HQ. I understand how the media spins things, so please point out specifically where this article is wrong. I sincerely want to know. I also want others to know the truth whatever that may be. Again, I am not questioning the investigation itself, but the reasons for some of the decisions made by ATF leaders. If you'll read the article, it is not about the investigation itself, but the connection of the media and decisions that were made................

Thank you for your reply. Your description of what happened to you and those agents isn't surprising and the kind of information we need to get out to the public. I always said Higgins and Harnett should have been criminally prosecuted for Waco and now I know they were doing the same crap for years. It is hard enough being an agent with ATF when you are attacked for bullshit and then have work for an agency that is run by people that should be fired for their lies. I never heard anything except you got a raw deal.

Sandy,
You are opening old wounds. If you were part of the investigation, you would know most of everything you have heard in the media is extremely slanted. One of the wounded agents successfully sued the media (local newspaper and TV station) and the ambulance service for eight figures. (never reported) The undercover house didn't see him go jogging everyday, because he didn't. I will say it was a mistake. They should have stopped when they lost the element of surprise, but dragon was alive and wouldn't be stopped. It probably was influenced by money, not by media. The common theme at the time was everyone in the compound would commit suicide based on interviews with cult members that had left the group. Guess what, they were right. They were a suicide cult and we made their prophecies come true when we tried to execute the warrant after we lost the element of surprise. Please don't go there. You piss on the grave of those four brave agents when you say they were just doing a publicity stunt. The Davidians had machineguns and handgrenades. They were violating federal firearms and explosives laws. The one common denominator you could go with is the lies afterwards. They lied after Waco about losing the element of surprise. When you screw up, be responsible and admit your mistakes. It's the right thing to do and it minimizes the damage. Same thing we teach our kids in kindergarden. In Waco, they tried to pin the mistakes on lower level people and protect HQ.

Sandy,
Did you ever get a copy of the full interview of Higgins on 60 minutes. It showed how slanted Wallace really was. The female supervisor complaining of sexual harassment didn't file a complaint, she was the target of the complaint. Mike Wallace sort of left that part of the interview out of the aired story. ATF ended up paying a fortune to that young male agent. I know the young girl interviewing for the job was harassed and ATF settled with her. The husband and wife team story was just goofy.

Sandy,

Always believing there is a bright side in everything;

Those three weeks could be used to coordinate and exposure of the things needing changed. If even a portion of that time were used it would be using their policy to give you time to expose what needs exposing.

I say use it to your advantage.

I dare say anyone in the industry speaks up we get a lot more that three weeks unpaid leave to live with. We coordinate, agents do the same. Now we do it together, simple. Not so simple for current ATF management to deal with.

Len Savage

Under FLSA rules, you would be prohibited from doing anything related to work. Answering your phone, getting on your computer, etc.. Len, I know you have had trouble with Industry Ops, but the criminal enforcement side of ATF (they guys you don't deal with), prosecute more violent criminals than any other federal agency. More jail time per criminal. Convicted felons with guns committing violent crimes. I don't think anyone has a problem with that part of ATF's mission. Without money for buys, informants, mission critical funding, these prosecutions will plummet. HQ will continue on and nothing will change until someone comes in and either abolishes ATF or cleans out the upper management.

Director Melson, et al. are ON RECORD stating that we must lose 400 Agents by the end of the year or furloughs and or RIFS will have to occur. For the first time in this Bureaus history, ATF is " Officially" asking for early out $$$$ to encourage Agents to leave. At NO time in this agency's history have we seen such a diligent attempt to TERMINATE employees for such trivial oversights as they are wholesale now. Notwithstanding the posture they are taking on the high profile whistle blowers, they are actually voting to terminate stellar agents for "failing to report" fellow agents and supervisors for trivial violations of internal policies. A recent PRB voted to terminate 5 employees in one fell swoop. It would appear that Melson and the SES club have so poorly managed our resources that the field employees must now be targeted to salvage THEIR (the bosses) SES packages.PIPs are being handed out and SACs and ASACs are being directed to "Motivate" employees to leave.
This while NOT ONE of the Senior executive staff PER DAD STEVE MARTIN reported the wholesale conspiracy to traffick in firearms into a foreign nation, refused to respond to Congress and yes perjured themselves across the board. Not one Attorney has been "encouraged to leave for their obvious complicity in these actions. Senior managers have gone unscathed for such acts as publicly disclosing UC trade secrets, giving false testimony in administrative hearings against Agents and inspectors. Senior managers have affairs with subordinates, lie to the OIG, are arrested for heinous conduct in hotel rooms and sit comfortably drawing SES pay and benefits. Our SACs are not supervising any more people than ten years ago, have no larger case loads yet receive the ever so costly SES training and paid transfers at retirement that we shouldn't and cant afford.
Eric Holder, you are on notice..........this is your problem and it AINT GOIN AWAY. How dare you allow the Glory whole supervisor to be transferred and maintain his rank and pay, along with George Gillette, Bill Newell, Bill McMahon, Billy Hoover, Mark Chait, RAC Voth and the other architects of a program so devastating it cost a Border Patrol Agent his life, sit comfortably drawing pay and benefits reserved for the best of the best. They have committed PERJURY.

Well said. Congress only needs to get one of the legendary Dirty Ones (I would go with Matt Horace) in front of a committee. Once under oath, he will give up everyone to save himself. This pattern of corruption and allowing employees who should be prosecuted to be promoted must be exposed. Most citizens wouldn't believe the stuff that upper management gets away with. I don't think we need to use speculation here and bring up theories. We can stick with the facts and let everyone figure out the motives for themselves. Most citizens would assume that ATF upper management is held to a higher standard than a regular street agent. The reality is they hold themselves above the law and rules. The street agents are out everyday trying to do their jobs and protect the citizens of our great nation. ATF upper management seems to be only concerned with their next promotion.

I wonder how long we will have to scream accountability before there is any.

If someone (congress) looked into the incident in Seattle with Horace and Krenshaw, the whole house of cards would come down. That incident is typical of what is wrong with ATF. Upper management commits crimes and still get promoted. An agent is accused of "lack of candor" and is fired. All you have to do is get one of these guys under oath and they will burn everyone else down.

Well he sounds like a perfect replacement for Melson. Fits the Obama agenda to a tee: Incompetent and corrupt.

How to we force ATF to hold upper management to the same rules of conduct they hold street agents to? Until that happens, we are doomed. A critical element of any organization is faith in your leadership. We do not have that in ATF. We do have some good people in management, but they also seem to be disillusioned with upper management. I would plead with someone in congress to poll the ATF employees to truly identify our frustration. This can not continue. We are all looking at 21 furlough days, but are the SES looking at any cuts? I wouldn't be surprised to see them still collect their 10 - 30% bonuses. ATF seems to be the only agency that is looking at furlough days, while at the same time producing the most jail time criminal cases per agent in DOJ. At the same time, we continue to let SESs get away with actions that would get any street agent fired.

Point of clarification: Is Kelvin Crenshaw STILL WITH the BATFE? Still employed? Or does he have a private consulting firm sucking up government grants like Vanessa McLemore?

Still the SAC in Seattle after being the head of OPR/IA in HQ.