1315 replies to this topic

[Storm]

@Itsy, I get the impression that you must be one of the ones that is being talked about for you to post such a broad opinion. Do us a favor and keep your opinions to yourself!

[Jay A. Dobyns]

I don't need to figure out or determine where I stand. My track record speaks for itself. You figure it out. Here I am in the open and taking a beating for not doing what you claim "everyone" does. Thanks for the comments and observations. Do you have anything of substance to add or did you just pop up to advise everyone of your observations? I would say what I have to say to your face too but since you go by "Itsy", that's a little hard to do.

The truth is I have not "rambled or ranted" about or against anyone. I simply wrote that as a culmination of my observations. My remark imcluded "everyone" simply to represent the majority of my finds. It was not ment to include everyone, so I'll leave it up to you to determine whether you correlate with those in that group or not.

[Itsy]

The truth is I have not "rambled or ranted" about or against anyone. I simply wrote that as a culmination of my observations. My remark imcluded "everyone" simply to represent the majority of my finds. It was not ment to include everyone, so I'll leave it up to you to determine whether you correlate with those in that group or not.

[Jay A. Dobyns]

When you write "everyone" that includes me and I have not hidden from anyone and said everything and more to their faces. I will look any person out there in the eye and say what I have to say. Since you don't have the "confidence and courage" to use your name while you "ramble and rant about others" you have displayed yourself to be the epitome of a hypocrite.

I find it funny, how everyone on here rambles and rants about others, simply because they don't have the confidence or courage to say it to that person face-to-face.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

You would have them subject themselves to reprisals and retaliation that even CONGRESS can't stop??????????

I find it funny, how everyone on here rambles and rants about others, simply because they don't have the confidence or courage to say it to that person face-to-face.

[Itsy]

I find it funny, how everyone on here rambles and rants about others, simply because they don't have the confidence or courage to say it to that person face-to-face.

[Doc Holiday]

26, The issue is not whether the Eagle scouts is a worthy organization to support or not. Their history speakks for itself Only a communist would not support them. The issue is #1 wasting tax payer money directed at public safety to grandstand by an agency whose own leadership is failing. #2 local Agents could have been given admin time, maybe fly two specialists to the Jamboree to coordinate our presence and leave the rest of the agents in the field to catch badguys and use all that money to advance Criminal Investigations. Or perhaps spend it to train our own leaders. Just a thought.

I believe the “Boy Scout Jamboree foolishness" you’re referring to is the yearly Eagle Scout event. These young people are tomorrow's leaders and this country's very best and brightest. Young people with their integrity, drive, and intelligence are exactly what is needed in government, particularly ATF. Look around at all the current “leaders” and you’ll see many marines and other assumed 'good guys', but I’m willing to bet there is not one Eagle Scout in the entire rotten bunch. You won’t see many Eagle Scouts willing to lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead. There is a very good reason why many Fortune 500 companies have an 'automatic hire' stamp for any Eagle Scout who applies with them. Recruiting from this elite group is just plain smart. These are also probably LAW ENFORCEMENT Eagle Scouts in Ft Collins.

Finally it seems as if Jones has gotten something right. Finally.

[Doc Holiday]

Fact.........Mr. Sweetow was/is part and parcel of MANY significant adverse actions and reprisals in the Atlanta field division. He was NOT the SAC for many but was definitely in a position to stop frivilous terminations, transfers and personnel actions and didn't.

The following is from a Highly reliable source.

OK, just learned that these 120 day details are being funded by extra money
coming from DOJ, so we're going to keep running them. Makes perfect sense: ATF
will be the new Violent Crime Bureau; Front Line initiative is the big PR wave
to get ahead of the OIG report.

120 day details are to show that we are specifically targeting violent criminals nationwide; money from DOJ funds this PR spin to help get ahead of media circus from OIG report and to shelter Holder while under contempt citation. Low agent morale is no impediment, since the over arching plan is to just put on a show despite impact or cost. Couple that with the spike in New Orleans murder rate right in the middle of the ATF detail
there, and you can pretty much show that despite the fiscal costs at a time of budgetary belt tightening, the point is to prepare a media plan in preparation for the OIG report. I don't think you'll be able to show any positive impact on violent crime as a result of these details in any city targeted.

Also, this "Frontline" bullshit is killing morale nationwide. Divisions have their
own ideas about what and how to implement it, and the agents are just winding up
pissed on and pissed off. GA, NY, FL and KS are my sources.

SAC Sweetow is apparently heir apparent for some HQ job fairly soon. ASAC Delvecchio is
pining for the west coast, and will be putting in for some supervisor job out there as soon as its announced as His Chief Counsel wife and will be putting in for some Chief Counsel supervisor job out there (probably Larry Nichols old job), as soon as its announced. Both will be good riddance when gone from Atlanta at this point.

Lastly, we have about 30 people, agents, IOI's, etc., detailed to Ft. Collins,
CO, to play at some Boy Scout jamboree or some such foolishness. I've heard
20-25 NRT folks, 4 medics, a PIO, and a partridge in a pear tree, but I'm not
sure about the tree. The B. Todd is supposed to make an appearance, but that's
not for sure.

Unconfirmed Reports...can anyone confirm?

There are reports that the Special Agent in Charge of Atlanta, GA is a repeat discriminator and retaliates against employees that file EEO complaints or any complaint for that matter. How many more complaints need to be filed before this is not tolerated? There are reports that when the Special Agent in Charge of Washington, DC was announced his employees received condolences from their fellow ATF employees. Aside from the crazy stories that are already out there, we will see what else this madman does. There are reports that the Special Agent in Charge of Seattle, WA is being targeted because of the supervisor that stole the ATF's money. Has he been held responsible yet? There are reports that the Fast and Furious Report will be out in August. There are reports and then there are REPORTS....stay tuned

[Storm]

Unconfirmed Reports...can anyone confirm?

There are reports that the Special Agent in Charge of Atlanta, GA is a repeat discriminator and retaliates against employees that file EEO complaints or any complaint for that matter. How many more complaints need to be filed before this is not tolerated? There are reports that when the Special Agent in Charge of Washington, DC was announced his employees received condolences from their fellow ATF employees. Aside from the crazy stories that are already out there, we will see what else this madman does. There are reports that the Special Agent in Charge of Seattle, WA is being targeted because of the supervisor that stole the ATF's money. Has he been held responsible yet? There are reports that the Fast and Furious Report will be out in August. There are reports and then there are REPORTS....stay tuned

[Iceman]

This is RICH, IF more than rumor. Mr. Traver justified his MIA status during the massacre, by #1, he was working out and didnt check his phone and #2, his total lack of Law Enforcement response being based upon his being the Director nominee and was not going to weigh in until the White House told him what to do. LEADERSHIP at its best. FYI Mr. Traver, you are nothing more than a half court shot by the administration, that missed the rim completely. Your name still being there is NOTHING more than something to put on your resume' AINT HAPPENIN.

If this is true, then he should be immediately removed for dereliction of duty. ONCE AGAIN, nice guy, probably a good neighbor, but a Crummy Agents and Leader and WE TOLD YOU SO. Someone said on here once, Mr. Jones Brandon et al, YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF EXPERIENCE COLLECTIVELY, WE HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS. You should listen to us. Last note, IF Traver was ever qualified as a potential Director, don't you think a democrat controlled Senate and a Democrat President would have ramrodded his nomination through?

[Iceman]

If this is true, then he should be immediately removed for dereliction of duty. ONCE AGAIN, nice guy, probably a good neighbor, but a Crummy Agents and Leader and WE TOLD YOU SO. Someone said on here once, Mr. Jones Brandon et al, YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF EXPERIENCE COLLECTIVELY, WE HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS. You should listen to us. Last note, IF Traver was ever qualified as a potential Director, don't you think a democrat controlled Senate and a Democrat President would have ramrodded his nomination through?

Aurora Colorado:

The ATF agents, first and mid-level supervisors on scene responded and performed to the very highest standards of law enforcement to include going above and beyond when requested to tag and bag corpse's in the theater after the FBI's evidence recovery team was called off the task because they were trampling valuable crime scene evidence.

Now the good part. Obama's choice to be the Director of ATF, Andy Traver, now the SAC in Denver could not be found until 7am the morning after a national catastrophe took place in his own town at 12:30 the night before. Wouldn't answer his phone. This is not entirely clear but either responding managers were preparing to, or actually did, send a car to his house to advise him of what had occured. When he ulitmately showed he had is PIO driving him around to meetings as a personal chauffeur.

You can not make this stuff up. How does that fit into Jones's Changecast message when he talked about the demands he was going hold his managers to? Traver failed in the face of a world wide event that happened only miles from his home and missed the mark on every one of Jones's expectations. This is not an ordinary run of the mill field SAC. It's the guy the White House wanted to run ATF!

Like one agent recently stated, "Traver couldn't get Chicago right let alone the agency."

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Not withstanding Special Agent Forcelli who has obviously received some sort of appeasing treatment, that does NOT negate the hundreds who have suffered withering attacks(like the ones he suffered just months ago) and continue to at the time of this writing. OUR Agency did NOT drop from our heralded 20th best place to work with honest and trustworthy managers, down to the 200"s because a couple of slug disgruntled employees didn't like taking orders. Release the new survey just conducted months ago. Is it possible we dropped lower? To Pete, is it possible that you have not reviewed the hundreds of pending complaints and lawsuits. Is it possible you have forgotten the treatment Jay got and CONTINUES to get because he exposed Newell and Gillette as incompetents and there was NO Consequences for the perpetrators as Mr. Jones states.

Did ya know an employee out west got a 5 day suspension recently for a normal dispute with another employee? Remember Jays 5 days off for calling an incompetent an incompetent? What about the guy who posted a public article outlining line by line how Joe Riehl with Martin and others help, COMPLETELY tanked the efficiency and effectiveness of our Arson and Explosive programs? He didn't write the article and it had been posted for over a year. When Riehl was promoted (SERIOUSLY), that kid got days off for the article posted for a year before. But Thomasson is still in a boss job, Ford is still a boss. This is rich, Richardson and Crenshaw are still bosses.

Those of you who make an oversight or legitimate mistake BEWARE. But if you lie to congress, steal or misappropriate taxpayer funds, discriminate and retaliate, Mr. Jones WASN'T threatening you. Mr. Jones, are you starting to see how your specific Changecast #8, was not a leap, hell it wasn't a shuffle to the obvious conclusion everyone in the country is talking about? The new "philosophy seems to be, (Not Officially Coined Yet), "Lead from the bottom or don't lead at all"

All great points Jay. I'd just like to add that if anyone is being retaliated against by your managers, please send in your complaints to the congressional contacts I've listed below. There are actually congressmen actively engaged in helping those in ATF who are being retaliated against which is VERY RARE. Please send in your cases to the contacts below so that Issa and Grassley are aware of the scope of the retaliation and fear within ATF. Please keep in mind that if these men on the Hill drop the ball, everyone will likely be left at the mercy of Jones & Co. If you think these "leaders" are vicious now, imagine what they would be like if congress wasn't looking.

In Grassley's office:
Jason_Foster@Judiciary-Rep.Senate.Gov

In Issa's office:
Ashok M. Pinto
202-225-2382 fax
Ashok.Pinto@mail.house.gov

In Lamar Smith's office:
Todd.Washam@mail.house.gov (Fax 202.225.5102)
Bart.Forsyth@mail.house.gov

[Jay A. Dobyns]

PS: you post here, they are coming. They're keeping score. You willl be on the "watch list" if they can figure out who you are. You spit on the sidewalk and you are going down. Think before you write and then think again.

[Jay A. Dobyns]

I saw the Changecast from Acting Director Jones when it was posted. Perception is reality and the perception is that if you don't play by the rules they are coming after you. I agree with that. Trust me, I fully understand ATF consequences. I have suffered under both justified and unjusitified consequences in my 25 years. When I had it coming I took it like a man and didn't make excuses or perjure myself to avoid them. When they weren't justified I didn't roll over and play coward like they wanted me to.

The problem is the whistleblowers I know have all played by the rules and presented complaints to first, second and third level supervisors, the Ombudsmans office, Internal Affiars, the EEOC, the OIG and OSC, Congress and finally the media. None that I am personally aware of immediately jumped tough and put themselves in front of a reporter or camera. What Acting Director Jones does not discuss is the utter lack of interest when whistleblowers follow the rules. He talks as if the process is balanced but the truth is it is a one-way street. You get NO attention or concern until an executive is embarrassed in the media. Not even an acknowlegement of a complaint beyond a boilerplate email - thank you for your interest; we are very concerned; blah, etc.

Lump the Changecast message with the institutional history of ATF retaliations (still ongoing). Then add in guys like Thomasson who openly state their intent to trainwreck whistleblowers (when interviewed on his statement claimed that he "did not know and does not care"). Take the managers in Phoenix who attacked and derailed the lives of honest agents like Forcelli and Canino and have not been held accountable (Thomasson's plan being enacted). And then top it off with a "no oversight" policy for the Office of Chief Counsel who has an undeniable track record of whistleblower ambushes. What does that leave you?

An agency where the fear of speaking the truth will leave you in such a demolished state of career, reputation, family and finance that any agent with a brain cell is going to shut up, keep their heads down, let someone else get their head chopped off, and continue to work on (more like survive) in a culture where no one of influence is willing to hear the truth. ATF's acomplishments have historically been made in spite of our executives, not because of them. Is every executive bad? No. Come on. No one is saying that. But the ones who are, they're out of control bad and the good ones don't do a damn thing to reign in their peers for fear that someday the dirty boss could be their boss and the retaliation could come down on them. ATF executives are masters of playing it safe.

This is of note: I have repeatedly begged for the HQ executives to meet with me to discuss my dispute. The repeated answer: "We can't because the attorneys won't let us." The attorneys won't let the Director or Deputy Director talk to an ATF employee? And Jones and Brandon accept that! They need OCC's permission to do their jobs? No overruling of the attorney to say - "thank you for the counsel but this is MY agency and I will talk to anyone in it about any topic I chose."?

Nope. If it is happening to me it is surely happening to dozens of others like me. Now you decide who calls the ball around here.

REWIND TO 2010 CNN WITH KEN MELSON DENYING REPRISAL AND RETALIATION, EVEN THOUGH OUR COMPLAINTS EXCEED THAT OF BOTH MUCH LARGER FEDERAL L.E. AGENCYS. Coupled with the fact that the FAAP (Agent committee) has been told Chief Counsels Office is free from public accountability or ethical oversight and will NOT be exposed on the FAAP link on the ATF website, pretty much tells EVERY Employee in the agency, Smoke and Mirrors is still the order of the day. NOT my words, theirs.
http://washingtongua...wer-video-chill

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

REWIND TO 2010 CNN WITH KEN MELSON DENYING REPRISAL AND RETALIATION, EVEN THOUGH OUR COMPLAINTS EXCEED THAT OF BOTH MUCH LARGER FEDERAL L.E. AGENCYS. Coupled with the fact that the FAAP (Agent committee) has been told Chief Counsels Office is free from public accountability or ethical oversight and will NOT be exposed on the FAAP link on the ATF website, pretty much tells EVERY Employee in the agency, Smoke and Mirrors is still the order of the day. NOT my words, theirs.
http://washingtongua...wer-video-chill

[ProConfesso]

I'm very disturbed by some of the crap I read here. I've never visited the site before today, because although I know ATF management has been a big incompetent, and sometimes corrupt, mess, I also knew some of the people involved with this site to be, shall we say, less than objective. I just want to say, in my one and only appearance here, I recently attended a teleconference of the "Town Hall" meeting in Denver. Contrary to some other folks indications, both the Acting Director and the DD actively solicited questions, and encouraged a "nothing is off the table" environment. They have both come out repeatedly and said that lousy inexperienced supervisors with "poor interpersonal skills" (read: clueless arrogant assholes), have been a huge problem in ATF for years. So I'm not sure where the attitude that these meetings are a farce is coming from. We all came away impressed that these are two sincere, down-to-earth, highly involved and dedicated guys, who know they have a tough job to do but mean to do it. Furthermore, if you look at the personnel actions that have occurred in the last few months, you'll see two things: a number of crappy first line supervisors removed from their positions, (when's the last time you saw that before the current regime took over??) and a number of upper level bosses transferred or "promoted" away from SAC jobs or other Field Ops jobs to positions where they would have no direct impact on street agents. They have also tried to make the Ombudsman's Office an actual working advocate for street agents with real concerns who have been ignored or even abused by their regular chain of command. And finally, we in the SLC office have seen, first hand, the top bosses intervene in a situation that was shaping up to be just another old-school ATF management "blame the victims" whitewash.

Full disclosure: i've known the DD for my whole career and have worked for him (as a street agent) as both an ASAC and SAC, so I'm not objective. But I can tell you unequivocally he is an extremely hard working, experienced, dedicated "street agent" oriented guy, and above all a man of integrity. Pisses me off to see him and Mr. Jones dissed here.

In my 23 years as an agent, I have never had reason to be optimistic about the top ATF management trying to do the right thing. Until now. I believe these guys are actively advocating for better bosses and trying to change the in-bred messed up culture of ATF Supervision, a soup sandwich that's been the norm for years and years. A huge job, admittedly. But they are truly trying to make it happen. Some people here need to give them a chance.

Be Safe,

Jerry Sharpe

"Furthermore, if you look at the personnel actions that have occurred in the last few months, you'll see two things: a number of crappy first line supervisors removed from their positions, (when's the last time you saw that before the current regime took over??) and a number of upper level bosses transferred or "promoted" away from SAC jobs or other Field Ops jobs to positions where they would have no direct impact on street agents"

When someone goes back and makes the victims (and that is the right word) of those tyrant, incompetent and abusive first line supervisors whole again instead of just shuffling them around (seems another institution tried that method)then I'd give them a chance.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

To ALL ATF Agents, Investigators, Clerical and Support staff,

As you may know, our new Acting Director Mr. Jones and select staff are traveling the country holding Town Hall meetings for what they have said is an effort to encourage and improve communication, as well as get input from all of us. And as some of you know, I have had a public presence in questioning and pointing out significant and dangerous practices by management of ATF, and have been used as a public face for other ATF personnel who wanted to remain anonymous involving cases and initiatives which have gone horribly wrong and in more than one instance cost innocent lives. We all know we cannot stand by and let ATF disintegrate, and Congress apparently now knows it too.

You need to know that when the Town Hall was scheduled to come to the San Francisco Field Office, I contacted San Francisco Management staff to advise I would like to participate. We had all been advised in writing by one of the ASAC’s that “All active employees (which I am) are encouraged to attend.” I was also advised that all questions and concerns must be submitted in writing ahead of time, so that ATF would have the questions or concerns by close of business one week in advance. So I submitted my questions. I drove (on my own dime) over 200 miles to attend. At close of business on July 10, (the night before) I was advised I would not be allowed to attend. You may want to know about this action by ATF against one of ATF’s so-called “whistleblowers.” I have said nothing publicly.

The Town Hall may be coming to your town. In the hopes that these concerns are shared across the country, ANY of you may ask any such question on my behalf or use them on your own, and yes, do you do so at some risk? Of course. I know this all too well. It turns out that ANY field division that requires questions in advance, is doing so against the subsequent direction from the Directors staff. I have emails from the Acting Director’s staff to the San Francisco ATF management staff,to NOT require questions in advance. They did so anyway, and never rescinded the requirement. These are the questions I would have asked, if allowed. If you get any answers, or even non-answers, please post them for everyone. Thanks.

Questions for Acting Director B. Todd Jones
1) Why are managers who were in charge or substantively responsible for the failure of major ATF programs still managers and, in some cases, promoted?

2) Why does there seem to be such a gaping disparity and accountability of treatment by ATF management between managers who are known to have abused policies and have violated ethics and integrity standards and field agents? For example, field agents are being reprimanded for relatively insignificant violations while the more egregious conduct of managers is left unaddressed.

3) Why is ATF not in compliance with EEOC laws and rules regarding the timely processing of complaints? What is ATF planning to do to correct this issue and to come into compliance?

4) Why have those managers who have publicly threatened or acted against whistleblowers and other complainants not been reprimanded or fired?

5) What is the ATF doing to protect its whistleblowers and to encourage an environment where an agent feels he or she can bring forward issues without retaliation?

6) What observations and/or action items did you gather from the recent Government/OPM survey which concluded that the ATF had the least trusted and respected leadership in the U.S. law enforcement community? What do you plan to do about this issue that can be measured by the field? When do you plan to take action on this issue?

7) Why were the Field Agents Advisory Panels criticisms and recommendations regarding the ATF Chief Counsel's Office deleted from the ATF website, thus preventing public view and accountability? Are the abuses of ATF Chief Counsel's Office no longer subject to the same scrutiny as other ATF Directorates?

8) Why is ATF leadership not protecting ATF's jurisdiction, such as our explosive jurisdiction, and allowing the agency to be minimized?

9) Why did ATF leadership allow a process to buy out senior agents, inspectors, and employees when the agency was already lacking experience and competencies? Would it not have been better to reduce the top heavy management ranks that were underperforming and lacked accountability?

10) Our agency has been in existence and a highly functioning agency for 40 years. Why, 8 months into our “new” leadership is the field learning that ATF almost has a management philosophy? When will the philosophy be acted upon?

Jerry - apparently after Jones and his minions had the Town Hall in Denver, they decided to shut down any pretense of encouraging a ‘nothing off the table’ environment where they actively solicited questions. The last Town Hall in SF was anything but what you have described. All questions had to be submitted in advance and approved before they could be asked. After reading the questions of one agent, that agent was told he could not attend. Maybe that’s why so many of us think these meetings are a farce and view Brandon and Jones with such disgust . These men are supposed to be leading and I have yet to see you or anyone else able to defend them with examples of what they have done to lead. I used to believe Tom was a good choice for DD but now I merely see him as Jones’ puppet.

[limestonenerd]

This is probably the 5th or 6th time I've seen someone post here only to be ridiculed by Madea and Sandy Davis for offering an opinion that they do not share. Webmaster you have lost control of your pages. I will no longer be participating either. BTW, I agree with their opinions but belittling a 23 year agent like he doesn't deserve an opinion of his own puts Madea and Sandy Davis in the same catagory as the bad bosses of the past.

[JEROME SHARPE]

I'm very disturbed by some of the crap I read here. I've never visited the site before today, because although I know ATF management has been a big incompetent, and sometimes corrupt, mess, I also knew some of the people involved with this site to be, shall we say, less than objective. I just want to say, in my one and only appearance here, I recently attended a teleconference of the "Town Hall" meeting in Denver. Contrary to some other folks indications, both the Acting Director and the DD actively solicited questions, and encouraged a "nothing is off the table" environment. They have both come out repeatedly and said that lousy inexperienced supervisors with "poor interpersonal skills" (read: clueless arrogant assholes), have been a huge problem in ATF for years. So I'm not sure where the attitude that these meetings are a farce is coming from. We all came away impressed that these are two sincere, down-to-earth, highly involved and dedicated guys, who know they have a tough job to do but mean to do it. Furthermore, if you look at the personnel actions that have occurred in the last few months, you'll see two things: a number of crappy first line supervisors removed from their positions, (when's the last time you saw that before the current regime took over??) and a number of upper level bosses transferred or "promoted" away from SAC jobs or other Field Ops jobs to positions where they would have no direct impact on street agents. They have also tried to make the Ombudsman's Office an actual working advocate for street agents with real concerns who have been ignored or even abused by their regular chain of command. And finally, we in the SLC office have seen, first hand, the top bosses intervene in a situation that was shaping up to be just another old-school ATF management "blame the victims" whitewash.

Full disclosure: i've known the DD for my whole career and have worked for him (as a street agent) as both an ASAC and SAC, so I'm not objective. But I can tell you unequivocally he is an extremely hard working, experienced, dedicated "street agent" oriented guy, and above all a man of integrity. Pisses me off to see him and Mr. Jones dissed here.

In my 23 years as an agent, I have never had reason to be optimistic about the top ATF management trying to do the right thing. Until now. I believe these guys are actively advocating for better bosses and trying to change the in-bred messed up culture of ATF Supervision, a soup sandwich that's been the norm for years and years. A huge job, admittedly. But they are truly trying to make it happen. Some people here need to give them a chance.

Be Safe,

Jerry Sharpe

[ProConfesso]

http://trac.syr.edu/...nthlyapr12/fil/
If you were a sales manager and your sales were down from last month and moreover the last year you would most likely have to answer to your boss. Or perhaps a more relevant comparison e.g. NYPD COMPSTAT. But since ATF managers engage in the practice known as logrolling no one is ever called on the carpet. If it weren't for those adoption cases a good arguement could be made for an agency budget reduction - or is that anathema in Congress? Heck, a novel concept is that those adoption cases could be brought directly to a Federal Magistrate from a local cop, who is doing all the heavy lifting anyway, for Federal Prosecution (if deemed necessary) and cut out the Agent steno pool altogether. Has your big city neighborhood becoming safer already from gun play because of PSN?

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

You are 100% correct. Not in my meager 30 yrs in LE have I ever seen a requirement to submit questions or concerns prior to an executive holding a "Town Hall" meeting. #1 He knows exactly what the problems are in ATF. Ray Charles can see whats broken here. #2 it stinks but it doesn't change anything. I'm submitting my questions to the SFFD for his visit on the 11th. He can either explain and answer or he can't. He's not gonna fool anyone with smoke and mirrors. He saw that at EPIC, he saw it in Atlanta and he will continue to see it until he acts.

Let me see if I have this shit straight. Now these so-called Town Halls are scripted? Unless you submit your questions in advance, you can’t ask them? Jones, Brandon, and Serres, are you not even going to PRETEND that these little propaganda meetings have a purpose other than to blow smoke up our collective asses? Mr. Jones, has having a security detail made you so delusional that now you think you’re the Reich Chancellor? Why waste any more tax payer money and our time on this farce? Come on, what’s next? Are you going to start showing up at these things with a teleprompter? Maybe have canned applause while your stepford employees (the two I understand are still left) look on at you in awe? How many ATF attorneys will be analyzing the submitted questions? Do you three realize how insane you appear? Consider these my pre-submitted questions for your review.

[FUBAR]

Let me see if I have this shit straight. Now these so-called Town Halls are scripted? Unless you submit your questions in advance, you can’t ask them? Jones, Brandon, and Serres, are you not even going to PRETEND that these little propaganda meetings have a purpose other than to blow smoke up our collective asses? Mr. Jones, has having a security detail made you so delusional that now you think you’re the Reich Chancellor? Why waste any more tax payer money and our time on this farce? Come on, what’s next? Are you going to start showing up at these things with a teleprompter? Maybe have canned applause while your stepford employees (the two I understand are still left) look on at you in awe? How many ATF attorneys will be analyzing the submitted questions? Do you three realize how insane you appear? Consider these my pre-submitted questions for your review.

I wanted to share part of an email I received from Jim Jorgenson (DD of NAFA) regarding Waco’s 5th fatality, not only to remember S/A Nathaniel Medrano, but as a reminder about the importance of knowing ATF’s history. Just like another Waco tragedy has happened again with F&F (as JJ and so many others said it would), there will be another F&F. As much as Jones and Brandon would like to convince you otherwise, you cannot reform corruption and incompetence by changing the name of the agency again and ‘not looking back’. For those of you who will be at the upcoming Town Hall in San Francisco, think about this while you listen to Todd, Brandon and Serres answer your previously submitted questions and give their carefully scripted answers. The last time a man named Jones wanted people to drink this much kool aid.....well, we all know how that ended. These bastards are pushing cyanide - step away from the punch bowl.

"While browsing the "grapevine" I came across a narrative concerning "S/A Medrano."

Nathaniel Medrano's situation was well known to NAFA...then NATA...since he was a member and asked us for assistance. In addition to probably suffering from PTSD, his main concern...the one articulated by him...was that he'd received a bum rap...an untrue narrative in the Treasury Waco Repot. You may recall he did a bit of undercover work posing as a UPS employee prior to the predictably ill-fated raid. Some, including Nathaniel, told NAFA personal "honor" is a big deal among folks of Hispanic decent. I assume that's true, but I think "honor" is a big deal for lots of folks irrespective of their ethnicity.

Specifically, Nathaniel wanted an opportunity to personally meet with then Treasury Undersecretary (Law Enforcement) Ron Noble. NATA arranged for that to happen at a NATA annual meeting in Las Vegas, NV which Nathaniel attended. However, at the last minute, Noble sent an underling who did speak privately with Nathaniel. I believe a bit later Nathaniel was able to chat with Noble by phone.

Obviously, Nathaniel's demons were not assuaged by Noble since it was only a matter of a couple weeks later that he took his own life. KK [Madea] also had numerous contacts with Nathaniel in a futile attempt to help him.

I've always considered Nathaniel Medrano to be the 5th ATF Waco fatality. Anyone who has been in combat as I and many others have know not all the casualties happen in the field."

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

TO ALL WHO HAVE AND ARE FIGHTING FOR THOSE PRINCIPALS OUR FOREFATHERS FOUGHT AND WON FOR.

HAPPY 4TH AND GOD BLESS AMERICA

The following is a letter from Sen. Grassley to the IG requesting that the OIG find out what has been done to Scott Thomasson after his comments were made public in May. As you'll recall Scotty boy gave orders to "$#&@" the F&F whistleblowers. Maybe the OIG should start at Eleanor Loos' office. She can explain why ATF managers are never held accountable.

As for how ATF tries to explain what has been 'done to' Thomasson, that should be interesting reading. And I'm already laughing just imagining what our brilliant "leaders" will do to show the OIG what they are doing to ensure that retaliation stops. Let me guess.....make Thomasson AD of I.A.?

Todd and Brandon - you two are doing a bang up job! First the 'Crenshaw standard' and now the 'Thomasson Standard'. I shudder to think what you two clowns will come up with next.

http://www.grassley....retaliation.pdf

[Iceman]

Am I missing something? Acting Director Jones is up to "Changecasts" 6 or 7 and he is just now talking about a management philosophy he is going to "implement" in the future. Surely he is aware WE HAVE a management philosophy and we have been in existence for 40 yes 40 years. We are NOT a start up agency. We are Good, NO GREAT at what we do. We have all the rules and policy's in place we will ever need. STOP acting like you are bringing something new to this Bureau. You ARE NOT. You, Melson, and Sullivan have just set the standard of competency and character for all managers by applying NO ACCOUNTABILITY. Hell, if I was a boss, I'd feel free to do whatever I want, when I want. Worse case scenario for incompetence, corruption, lying under oath, waste fraud and abuse, gross misconduct..........I become SAC Chicago, DAD Intell, SAC Seattle, Newark or SAC of IA. STOP with the character and competence. We don't need a new and improved philosophy, JUST LEAD FROM THE TOP. A LARGE portion of your executive staff has NO character and very little competence.As long as you have senior executives who attended F and F briefings weekly and FAILED TO REPORT,(per ATF and DOJ policy) your top echelon beyond Brandon and Turk will have NO credibility. It is so apparent that you seem to be just warming the seat for a few more months and creating sound bites to keep the heat off of Eric Holder. Shameful. DOJ is NOT accountable to Congress? Really?

[ProConfesso]

Our Alumni:

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all
"In April 1972 President Richard Nixon appointed Caulfield as Assistant Director: Criminal Enforcement - Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Caulfield was placed in charge of over 1,500 Federal agents. John Dean wrote that John Ehrlichman had hoped Caulfield could use the post to "influence how both friends and enemies of the White House were treated by the Internal Revenue Service."
NYPD Shield # 911

[apostate]

I sure ATF hope is doing something about these violent armed thugs committing hate crimes now in Philadelphia.

http://www.wnd.com/2...ism-in-america/

I think ATF should start a task force like they did with the church fires to address these attacks

[Doc Holiday]

CONGRATS AND A JOB WELL DONE TO THE GIDEON III FOLKS. YOU MAKE EVERYONE CARRYING AN ATF BADGE PROUD.

It does beg to question why the entire Oakland Field Office hasn't seized 90 guns (which is what a handful of skilled UC operators did in approximately 4 months) in the last five years under the leadership of Lindsey, Gleysteen, Martin, Vind, Lee and Herkins et al? But for a couple highly motivated Agents under questionable leadership and a real slug ex FIC, Oakland has produced NIL prior to the arrival of Gideon III. Bet they wish the Gideon folks could stay.

[VINCENT A CEFALU]

Happy Memorial Day.Thanks to all who have served this Great country. Thank you for our Freedoms.

[Iceman]

CHANGECAST 5??????? What significant change can be effected in 5 months Mr. Jones? Any substantive changes YOU make will only be reversed when you go back home or to whatever new position you are assigned to when you leave. We are still waiting to see accountability in Chief Counsels Office and those who have corrupted this agency. They are laughing at our system and they are laughing at the Senior leadership. We are watching you NOT SO QUIETLY dismantle our arson and explosives jurisdiction and pretend its not happening. Agents are being attacked by you and your attack dogs for expressing their opinions (coupled with FACTS) and you are still championing the likes of Torres, Hoover, Chait McMahon, Gillette and Crenshaw. Do you REALLY think this will all just go away because you say so? It will not. Just because you weren't here when it happened doesn't mean you don't own it.

[Iceman]

So the chain of command does NOT apply downward? Since when does an ADFO give out suspensions? I guess to protect the Phx management staff? So now we pick and choose who is the best manager to give adverse actions to avoid accountability? What is going on in this place? Is Mr. Jones merely here to tamp down the rebellion and protect Holder et al? And what exactly did Dobyns do to warrant a suspension. John Torres did everything Jay said he did and has dodged any accountability. We are sorry that the "ACTING" Director was/is embarrassed at his choice of leaders to Champion but Torres is one if not THE most corrupt and unethical this agency has ever spawned and apparently everybody but B. Todd Jones knows it.

Kay had an interesting point this morning. This 5 day suspension letter Jay has received is obviously just another message for the field to shut up. Vince was just cleared for publicly criticizing management and Madea encouraged everyone to start posting again. Ooops, I guess ATF had to reverse course. Can’t let the field think they are free to criticize their managers. And certainly can’t let the field think it is acceptable to point out corruption. As ATF can see though, this move actually had the opposite effect. Instead of intimidating the field, according to the very high number of views since yesterday and the increased postings, it seems to have just made the field angrier and brought even more outrageous conduct into public view. A hostage situation? Really? Oh my. Anyway, my suggestion to ATF would be to stop running forward with the same old philosophy of ‘flog them until they stop screaming’, to look back, and start correcting the corruption that is so firmly entrenched in this agency. It also might be a good idea to stop all current reprisals and correct the recent injustices. Mr. Jones, I can tell you from personal experience that there is a point at which you become so angry that you no longer have the good sense to be intimidated. Many employees were already to that point before you became Director. Many more seem to be hitting that point now.

Far be it from me to give legal advice to a sitting U.S. Attorney, but I feel compelled to point out to you Mr. Jones that when you brought Kelvin back, you set a standard that you now have to live with. And every time ATF’s leaders go after someone in the field for petty and/or made-up violations, they may as well shout from the rooftops that only non-managers are going to be disciplined.

For those of you who want to post something, but still have the good sense to be intimidated, I will gladly post for you. sandraedavis@bellsouth.net

[The Shadow]

Shadow, Madea wants to make it clear to everyone, including HQ, that you are NOT claiming that Kelvin did all of the things you just mentioned. Believe it or not folks, there’s actually a few he may not have done. Some were done by his buddies.

Ok, Madea is still pondering these latest developments. Was an investigation conducted into the statements made by Jay in this memo? It would seem that a sitting U.S. Attorney (if you’ve forgotten, that would be you Todd) would make a determination as to whether or not the statements Jay made were true. Did I.A. or the OIG investigate whether or not Torres perjured himself and committed acts of corruption? Are you telling me that U.S. Attorney Jones would sanction a suspension and once again VIOLATE an employee’s due process rights? Oh tell me it’s not so. Considering how many requests I have personally made asking for investigations on upper management, Madea just can not believe this could possibly be the case. Now, I know Julie Torres did not investigate whether or not John Torres committed perjury. After all they’re on the new Diversity Panel together. And how uncomfortable would that be?

Thanks for the correction Madea. I had not intended to say that he did all of the things listed. Most of those acts were committed by others in ATF management. Unfortunately, there are more than enough bad actors running the show and to attribute the misdeeds to only one would not be accurate.

[1desertrat]

THE BELOW EMAIL SENT BY SPECIAL AGENT JAY DOBYNS, ANNOUNCING HIS PLANNED RETIREMENT, RESULTED IN HIS RECEIVING A 5 DAY PROPOSED SUSPENSION FROM THE ADFO TODAY. YEP, YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST, THE ADFO. YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS SHIT UP.