Never in my career have I seen such extreme contempt and outright disdain for the U.S. Congress and their obvious intent in the GCA and Gun-owners Protection Act as I see in the below email generated by the AD and DAD of Enforcement Programs and Services. When did ATF become partisan and political taking a stance FOR or AGAINST the laws and regulations we are expected to enforce without bias or prejudice? At least be quietly professional or express your opinions in private as a private citizen. NOT IN A GOVERNMENT ATRIUM, ON GOVERNMENT TIME WITH GOVERNMENT RESOURCES. Have we solved violent crime in this country to the extent that we can party for championing OUR or ANY administrations agenda? You Ms. Ficaretta and Mr. Herbert are an outright embarrassment and do not truly understand who and what we have taken an oath to. WE DON'T TAKE SIDES, EVER.

Not only is this an ill advised concept, as we have no agents or inspectors to ever significantly process that many multiple sales reports, it produces minimal information in relation to cost and wasted time, we could be actually physically intercepting firearms.

From:
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:36 AM
Subject: Rifle Multiple Sale Reporting Program Celebration

Please join us on Wednesday, August 31, at 9:30 a.m., in Conference Room B to celebrate the successful completion of the rifle multiple sale reporting program. Collaboration among many directorates made this program possible, and ______ and I want to recognize and thank all the employees who contributed to our success.

This celebration will be held in connection with our EPS supervisors meeting to be held in the same room beginning at 10am. Please forward this invitation to all the remaining EPS supervisors in Martinsburg. I initially tried to list all their names, but I know I will leave some of the section supervisors out, and our celebration would not be complete without them. ______ and I look forward to seeing you all in Martinsburg.

Only in ATF! We have laid off all the contractors at the tracing center, so there will be no one to do the reporting, tracing or tracking of multiple sales. BUT, we got permission to track multiple sales on assault type weapons on the southwest border. Great, we now have permission to track something, but no one to do the actual work. Are they crazy? I bet the SESs will still get their giant bonuses this year, $15k to $50k. Someone please do something.

ATFTRUTHTELLER,

SA Dodson is an honorable man in my book. He displayed a lot of courage over the past few months.

Did you read my whole post??????

Latest word is FBI and DEA have been told to make plans for folding ATF into their agencies. GET READY NRA! You wanted it and it looks like it is finally happening. Arson and Explosives will go to FBI. Gun enforcement and Industry Ops will go to DEA. At this point, it might be the best thing. Currently, ATF will have to lay off 400 employees if they go to 2008 budget constraints. No money for operations, just survival. I know DEA and FBI have their own problems, but at least they have more room to hide the idiots. ATF promotes theirs. Of course, we are much better at eating our own. This might be the end of ATF. As a gun owner and a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment, I worry about the gun laws if the authority goes to the FBI. DEA might be a better fit. ATF gets pushed around by the NRA. They keep saying we have been without a director for 6 years, but it was Truscott before that, so... it has been a lot time since ATF had a truly strong director or accountability. I fear the only thing that will happen if ATF stays intact is the top people will be removed and their minions will take their place. Same type of people with different faces. No real changes. We also heard that Virginia O'Brien really did let guns go to Honduras. I don't know if that means they watched suspected straw purchasers buy guns and didn't confront them or they actually had UCs or CIs hand gun to traffickers. Of course, HQ is saying that Dodson while undercover actually handed guns purchased with agent cashier funds to firearms traffickers in another case prior to F&F. That is why he was in trouble in the first place and he is only trying to deflect attention away from his own misdeeds. It will be nice if he testifies again and he can set the record straight and show how the 5th floor tries to slander people. What is next, Dobyns shot Kennedy and Vince faked the moon landings.

So, what did Vanessa do? She evidently has some sort of government consulting company now. I'm curious to know specifically what she did.

Look in "Unpunished Misdeeds." Her violations are detailed in a DOJ OIJ report in which they recommended she be criminally prosecuted. The point I think some of us are trying to make here is that Vince has been fired for "alleged" lack of candor. Some high ranking people in ATF have been found to commit criminal acts and weren't fired, but were actually promoted. Vince completely denies all these allegations and the violation of "Lack of Candor" is sketchy at best. So, if Vince was actually in upper management, would he have been promoted instead of being fired. Joe Gordon was a white male and got away with tons of stuff, but he was in management. They finally forced him to retire. Funny thing about Joe was that he was extremely competent. It was just he had a split personality that was extremely kind, then extremely cruel. He disliked minorities and made horrible comments when they left the room. I too have had the benefit of working with outstanding agents throughout my career. Every black agent and TFO that I have worked with was a better agent than me. Nothing personal, but just the reality. We have great people, but we also curse ourselves by promoting the idiots away from the street agents so we don't have to deal with them. It is a recipe for disaster. We don't force people into management. We allow our best people to stay on the street where they can do the most good, putting violent criminals in jail. Not all upper managers are problems. We have a lot of good people up there.

Everything I am hearing says it won't matter soon. ATF is going to be forced into being split. The NRA is going to get their worse nightmare. The gun laws will be enforced by the FBI. I will be praying for the 2nd amendment.

I say we go back as far as we can remember. Those of us who have been around for twenty years know some funny stories. How 'bout the attache for Canada who got thrown out for two separate allegations of rape and then still got promoted. Of course, it's hard to beat all the stuff Vanessa McLemore (?) did. That could be a topic in itself.

It would be interesting to see list the crazy stuff upper management has gotten away with through the years and who they have gone after for so, so much less. From Matt Horace getting days off for lying directly to Internal Affairs, then getting promoted, then to Kelvin Crenshaw throwing Internal Affairs out of Seattle during an investigation, then getting promoted to the head of Internal Affairs. Seriously, we should start a list of these crazy stories. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with race. Dick Chase didn't even live in Denver when he was the SAC and stole a bunch of car parts upon his departure. Once you are their ugly baby (upper management) you can do no wrong. What about the agent who didn't report to the tracing center and just sat at her house in Chicago for a full year getting paid. When they finally figured it out, nothing happened to her.

onesparkz makes a great point for you. If ATF tolerates a lot then they have to tolerate a little. That is not to say that you are guilty, I'm sure you are not. Life as a whistleblower at ATF is terrible. If they let Torres off then they have to restore your job, regardless of facts or circumstances. My best wishes to you and Jay. If they can do this to you guys then everyone knows they can and will do it to us. Holder and Melson need to go away at best and preferabbly to prison. They would make interesting cellies.

Excellent point. If Vanessa can get promoted after getting caught lying, continue lying and get caught. Have DOJ IG request she be prosecuted criminally, then let her retire as a Special Assistant to the Director - how do you justify firing someone for "Lack of Candor." If you implement a zero tolerance policy, then you must go to your upper management and address those individuals that have been promoted and have been found to have lied directly to Internal Affairs in the past. Until then, the policy is something used only for retaliation. Hold everyone to the same standard. Wow! It is sad that this is a novel concept.

ATF"truth"teller
actually, i didn't quote sof - i quoted the ATF employees organization newsletter that SOF POSTED IMAGES OF THE VERY PAGES OF THE COMMENTS and suggested you go review (or even go to the original source if it's still around) and see for yourself

sof ain't no better or worse than any other print media - and i think that was why they simply printed the images or scans of The Lion newsletter (assuming that was the correct newsletter title)

obviously, your goal isn't concerned with the actual facts

Actually Ralph, I am just sick of the crap that comes out of conspiracy nuts. You might want to get back to working with Charlie Sheen on your 9/11 conspiracies. You make up crap and try and say it is fact. Good luck to you and your Unicorn hunting friends.

I have to agree with SD - entrenched behavior like we are witnessing does not materialize overnight. IMO, it has been a culmination of no accountability for years, even decades. Lack of consequences for Ruby/Waco and any number of lesser known scandals likely created the breeding ground that brought about F&F.

In a previous post, I falsely attributed the recently exhibited brash actions to "guts" but upon further reflection I believe it comes from operating in a vacuum so long that any sense of right and wrong has dissipated (if it ever existed). These people don't understand that their behavior is unacceptable to professional co-workers, taxpayers, and congress any more than a child understands a stove is hot before being burned.

Again, we are getting into the "crazy". Ruby Ridge? We bought sawed-off shotguns from Weaver. Simple case, not much jail time. Arrested him without incident. Weaver makes bail (only looking a probation) and goes into the mountains. Doesn't show up for court and writes the judge letters. USMS goes up into the mountains to scout out the area and everything goes horrible wrong. A Deputy Marshal gets killed, Weaver's young son gets killed. FBI HRT shows up and another tragedy occurs and Weaver's wife gets killed. ATF manned the road blocks.



This is the problem a lot of people have with this site. I agree we should stay on topic and concentrate on what is wrong with ATF. We do enough stupid stuff that we don't need to be blamed for crap we didn't do.

It's not that simple Truth. Here's the official Justice Dept Report: http://www.justice.g...ortcover_39.pdf . You don't have to read any further than the first page to see why Weaver didn't show up to court. Many in the public have read this report and know what's in it. If we on this site misrepresent the facts, which you just did, the public will start to see the agents as indistinguishable from HQ. When that happens, ATF will not survive and we will have let all the good in this agency be destroyed by a few at the top and our own ignorance. And to add insult to injury the Randy Weavers will be seen as the victims.

I think ATF agents have a responsibility to know the facts of our history before they hostilely comment on them. And defending mistakes out of ignorance, while at the same time writing off anyone who dares mention these mistakes as a nut, makes us look just like the managers we are all so repulsed by . I do not want to see the best agents in the world thrown out with the bath water and left to follow some FBI agent around all day as a flunky. Alienate the public through ignorance of facts while at the same time calling them crazy makes that nightmare scenario all the more likely. And believe me, the public is reading this site.

No one in the non-criminal public has more contact with ATF than the FFLs, who have apparently been horribly victimized themselves. Many FFLs are business leaders in our communities and they tend to be extremely savvy about ATF's history. They are also all over this site. Do we really want them going out into the community and telling people that the agents aren't any better than the liars running the agency?

'Those who do not know their history are destined to repeat it' comes to mind, except that in ATF's case, the agency may not be left standing to repeat anything.

Sandy,
Again, I don't see where I am not quoting fact. DOJ OIG REPORT Page 2, Section B - B. Significant Findings

In October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF

informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as

an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver

refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government

indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no

evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because

of his religious or political beliefs. Similarly, we found

insufficient evidence to sustain the charge that Weaver was

illegally entrapped into selling the weapons.

When Weaver was arraigned on the weapons charges in January

1991, he was told that his trial would commence on February 19,

1991. Two weeks later, the court clerk notified the parties that

the trial date had been changed to February 20, 1991. Shortly

thereafter, the U.S. Probation Office sent Weaver a letter which

incorrectly referenced his trial date as March 20, 1991. After

Weaver failed to appear for trial on February 20, the court

issued a bench warrant for his arrest. Three weeks later, on

March 14, a federal grand jury indicted Weaver for his failure to

appear for trial. We found that: the government, especially the

USAO, was unnecessarily rigid in its approach to the issues

created by the erroneous letter; that the USAO improvidently

sought an indictment before March 20, 1991; and that the USAO

erred in failing to inform the grand jury of the erroneous

letter.

I am not defending ATF out of ignorance. We have done plenty of stupid stuff without being accused of doing thing we didn't do. Ruby Ridge was a tragedy. I would have been amazed if Weaver had been convicted for the ATF charges after losing a son and wife. I think we all can say there is no crime in the world to justify what happened on that mountain. ATF was manning the road blocks. Let's stick with facts. Call Risenhoover if you have questions about Waco. HQ has already said he is a marked for complaining about the money wasted on NIBIN.

Sorry Truth, I read your post as if you were implying that Weaver refused to show up for court, which would have been very misleading. I can see now that you were merely saying because he wasn't in court, an arrest warrant was issued. Again sorry - internet miscommunication and I admittedly take an occasional pharmaceutical when I deal with anything that is ATF related.

Who is Roosenhoover? And since he's already marked, do you think he would post on here? I would sincerely like to hear from someone who had first-hand knowledge of Waco events who could defend your theory, which I know is held by many of the agents who were there. This is actually the theory that I would prefer to believe, and if true, I think it is important to have out there for the public to have access to. Sadly, much of the public does judge the agents in light of the corruption at the top.

Sandy,
You sure do have that right. And like most things, you are judge by your mistakes, not your successes. We truly have some of the best agents in all federal law enforcement. Underfunded, understaffed and lacking leadership. Still, ATF agents put more people in prison per agent than any other federal agency. Risenhoover is listed in the directory. Good luck.

Yes we had a Comm Center that was operating 24 hours. If you were an employee of ATF, you would know that. Ask any Agent working a high profile case back in the day -- there were two or three Agents that had to man the Comm Center at HQ. We use to have hotlines that came into the Comm Center and were answered 24 hours a day. And yes, Conroy was at the HQ Comm Center -- which wasn't a bad thing for the DADLE to be doing. He was fully aware of what was transpiring.

Also, some Agents did have cell phones at Waco. Investigators determined a least one citizen was monitoring cell phones and picked up a conversation of an Agent pertaining to raid preparation (either in route or the day before). Hense, we are now careful about cell phones, monitoring devices, etc.

Yep, back then you could get your 13 for spending a year at the Comm Center and it was typically manned by one person, not three. But it wasn't high tech constant monitoring. Hell, our radios barely worked. Encryption killed the range. Yes, a very few agents had cell phones, but the person monitoring the cell phones was a reporter, not a citizen. The AUSA wanted to charge him, but wasn't allowed. It is hard to tell who was where or heard what. Shoot, Royster did remember anything for several months. The point being it was this high tech center. It was a bare minimum operation. People need to remember the lack of technology we had back then. Not much.

I beg to differ with you about HQ not knowing what was going on in Waco before/during/after the raid. The fact that there was no "Plan B"in the raid plan approved by HQ tells volumes. In fact, a couple of days after the raid, a "Plan B"was inserted to cover up the fact that HQ was going to do the raid no matter what.

Also, at the time the raid was going down, wasn't DADLE Conroy in the HQ Communication Center, listening to the real-time moment by moment? The raid did not occur in a vacuum.

This type of discussion is only relevant when you examine how ATF Senior Mgt handles situations that produce negative results or bad press. There is a scramble to modify/destroy evidence and to point the finger at a sacrifical lamb, i.e. Street Agent.

Hence, when questioned by Congress, you will not get a straight answer from Senior Mgt to 1) Who thought of this plan? 2) Who approved this plan? 3) How much money was spent on this plan and who has been involved with the approval of the funds?

Guys,
Communication center? 1993? real-time moment by moment? Few people had cell phones. I am not defending management. You are just giving HQ too much credit. I don't disagree with your other points.

Zorro, I think there's another possibility; if HQ actually did have something to do with the push to hurry up and go on with the raid to make a big media splash in spite of having lost the element of surprise, and that is simple denial on the part of many agents. What agent wants to believe that four agents and many innocent children were killed because of this? It's almost too horrific to even contemplate.

Let me clear this point up once and for all. One of the requirements to main treasury for the search warrant to go forward was the element of surprise. The SACs and ASACs on the ground in Waco never informed HQ that they had lost the element of surprise. They thought they could still do the warrant. Did the amount of money already spent cross their mind? Probably. Most likely the biggest factor was no one had ever fired on law enforcement like that before. HQ got involved afterwards with the lie that we hadn't lost the element of surprise. This was not a media thing. It was two days after the first World Trade Center bombing. It was believed that no national attention would be given to this warrant. They were probably right. If the warrant had gone as planned, no one would have noticed. They didn't send a media team out. It was just PIO Sharon Wheeler for the Dallas Field DIvision.

The real comparison here is what has happened afterwards. Getting in front of your mistakes and taking responsibility for your actions. They don't even teach WACO at the academy anymore and few people are left in ATF that were there and know what really went on.

Truth, come on, throwing insults at Ralph instead of showing us where he is wrong simply isn't helpful. Please tell us where he is wrong. In all fairness, you did post quite a bit of "shit" yourself about cases you knew nothing about, yet stated your words as if you were stating facts. Then I was accused of "pissing on the graves" of our fallen agents and Michelle Roberts was slandered in your post with the very lies that Hartnett and Higgins spoon fed to you 15 years ago.

Ralph is posting what very much appears to be facts based on the interviews and testimony after Waco. You have been insufferably insulting and still you have not presented any facts.

While I admire your passion and loyalty to our fallen agents, how would getting the facts out on the table, regardless of what they are, be disrespectful to these four men?

And as far as me getting a "raw deal" - now there's a euphemism for you. There is still a man today who was within 5 years of retirement who got fired for testifying for me. It's been 20 years and it still takes my breath away when I think of what he went through and how it changed the course of his life and that of his daughters. I witnessed the pain Michelle Roberts went through as she had her reputation ripped apart across this agency that she loved. I have watched agents almost lose their minds from the stress of the battle as their spouses left them in financial ruin, their fellow agents turned against them, and their attorneys drop the ball in their cases ensuring that in the end, they never did get any vindication.

Truth, I believe your heart is on the right place. It's the location of your head that seems to be the problem.

He is quoting fact that isn't fact. I listened to your argument and thanked you for it. You were there and I didn't dispute your point. I thank you for letting me know the truth about what happened almost twenty years ago. What I can't tolerate is some "expert" who wasn't even there. The reason the supervisors on site lied was one of the requirements to go forward with the raid was the element of surprise. He is quoting things that never happened. He is making up stuff and acting like it is fact. Here is a little piece of fact. I knew the Sheriff and spoke with him personally. I tried to give you a piece of fact and had some nut job start quoting crazy. I work for ATF. I am all full up on crazy.

Sandy,
You are opening old wounds. If you were part of the investigation, you would know most of everything you have heard in the media is extremely slanted. One of the wounded agents successfully sued the media (local newspaper and TV station) and the ambulance service for eight figures. (never reported) The undercover house didn't see him go jogging everyday, because he didn't. I will say it was a mistake. They should have stopped when they lost the element of surprise, but dragon was alive and wouldn't be stopped. It probably was influenced by money, not by media. The common theme at the time was everyone in the compound would commit suicide based on interviews with cult members that had left the group. Guess what, they were right. They were a suicide cult and we made their prophecies come true when we tried to execute the warrant after we lost the element of surprise. Please don't go there. You piss on the grave of those four brave agents when you say they were just doing a publicity stunt. The Davidians had machineguns and handgrenades. They were violating federal firearms and explosives laws. The one common denominator you could go with is the lies afterwards. They lied after Waco about losing the element of surprise. When you screw up, be responsible and admit your mistakes. It's the right thing to do and it minimizes the damage. Same thing we teach our kids in kindergarden. In Waco, they tried to pin the mistakes on lower level people and protect HQ.

Sandy,
Did you ever get a copy of the full interview of Higgins on 60 minutes. It showed how slanted Wallace really was. The female supervisor complaining of sexual harassment didn't file a complaint, she was the target of the complaint. Mike Wallace sort of left that part of the interview out of the aired story. ATF ended up paying a fortune to that young male agent. I know the young girl interviewing for the job was harassed and ATF settled with her. The husband and wife team story was just goofy.

I'm sorry I upset you and I know these wounds run deep, however, in my mind if critical decisions were made by ATF leaders that in some way led to the death of those four agents, I would not be "pissing on their graves", but trying to ensure it doesn't happen again by exposing what I believe to be a pattern of behavior on the part of ATF HQ. I understand how the media spins things, so please point out specifically where this article is wrong. I sincerely want to know. I also want others to know the truth whatever that may be. Again, I am not questioning the investigation itself, but the reasons for some of the decisions made by ATF leaders. If you'll read the article, it is not about the investigation itself, but the connection of the media and decisions that were made................

Thank you for your reply. Your description of what happened to you and those agents isn't surprising and the kind of information we need to get out to the public. I always said Higgins and Harnett should have been criminally prosecuted for Waco and now I know they were doing the same crap for years. It is hard enough being an agent with ATF when you are attacked for bullshit and then have work for an agency that is run by people that should be fired for their lies. I never heard anything except you got a raw deal.

Didn't Wheeler finally admit under oath that she did indeed give a reporter a 'heads-up' after first claiming that she had only gotten contact numbers (per the blue book report or congressional testimony)? My theory is that Hartnett looked around for a big ATF case to offset the bad press that he knew was about to hit. I believe that was the reason that the raid wasn't called off when the element of surprise was lost. Because no one wanted to tell that vile little man he had no clothes on. I'm not throwing wild accusations around about Hartnett. This was exactly how he operated during his tenure at ATF.

I can see Hartnett getting so caught up in his own nasty little games, that he would not stop to think about the lives of his agents before making major decisions. He made a career out of viciously going after agents. It's who he was. It's his motivation concerning the orders that came down after the element of surprise was lost I'm bringing into question. And I also suspect he knew and approved of a reporter being there. My question has alway been why was there such a big rush to charge into the compound? Those people weren't going anywhere. ATF had already lost the element of surprise. Other than ATF leaders wanting a big media splash, what was the rush? I think the critical question is did ATF leaders want the reporter there prior to the raid? And why were there so many lies told? What were they covering up? If they just made a mistake in judgement, why all the lies? I'm sorry, call me jaded, but every time I've seen ATF HQ lying, they were covering-up.

I would like to find out if Wheeler admitted giving the reporter a heads-up. I'll try to find Wheeler's testimony or my copy of the blue book.

Is there anything else about this article's documentation that you feel is bs?

Story goes a lot deeper than that. When ATF started their investigation they quickly discovered that the ex-cult members they were interviewing were also being interviewed by the Waco Tribune Herald. The paper was writing a series on the cult and just how dangerous they were. These ex-cult members informed the paper that ATF was also investigating the group. Finally, a meeting was scheduled with the paper. ATF SACs were there and it was thought that the paper and ATF were in agreement. WRONG. The paper intended to publish their series before the raid, so it would look like their story is what lead to federal action. I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing. So, when ATF made arrangements with the ambulance service, the dispatcher was immediately relaying all information to her boyfriend at the TV station, who was best friends with the guy writing the story for the paper. Every time ATF made a change and let the ambulance service know, all the media was immediately informed. That is why the ambulance service destroyed all their telephone recordings. The paper started their series on a saturday, the worst day of the week for a paper, instead of Sunday. ATF was ignorant to think they could trust the paper. The media was not invited out there that day. This is why the media was sued and lost. The compromise with the Davidians was caused by a lost TV camera man who told a rural postal carrier that the ATF and the national guard were coming and there was coming to be a big shootout. Problem was, the rural postal carrier was the number 2 man in the Davidian compound. After this meeting, the TV camera man left the area and went and hid at his house for the next few days. No one knew what had happened to him. Most of this came out when the defense attorneys went into the compound, but was never reported by the media.

I wasn't going to respond to your posts but after slamming the media as reliable sources (and i'll agree that the media generally mis-state, mis-quote interviewees for the sake of sensationalizing - hell, i was mis-quoted one time so badly, i vowed never to be interviewed again). But to portray the media in a manner to suggest they never report factually is as bad as what you accuse them of. Then you go on to state "I am getting all this second hand, so I apologize if it gets confusing" as if when you use 2nd hand sources, they're legitimate

the information i have is from the C-span recorded testimony at congressional hearings, a TV interview of the sheriff of waco, and lastly from a contact that was called in by both ATF and the FBI that wanted him to provide "independent expert testimony" for them at the congressional hearings. After he reviewed all their evidence, i won't repeat what he said to both agencies (it'd be too inflamatory) but suffice it that he refused to testify on either agencies' behalf. As far as the congressional hearings, they're in the C-span archives online - view them for yourself

a) the sheriff of waco, in that interview stated unequivocably that the actions at Waco amounted to murder, plain & simple. He went on to state that if ATF really believed the davidians had machineguns, why did they send their agents out there in cattle trucks and pull up right in front of the main building???? and that was confirmed in a video tape displayed in the congressional hearings. There was also the audio tape of david koresh calling into the sheriff's office at the very beginning of the raid, just after ATF started shooting at koresh when he stuck his head out the front door, asking for help, asking why they were being fired on, and asking the sheriff to tell the agents that there were children inside. The tone of excitement in his voice told me he wasn't acting - there was real fear and terror in his voice, and it sure gave credibility to the assertions that ATF fired first at Waco. The sheriff actually had tears in his eyes when he was interviewed but you could see the anger behind them. That interview is burnt into my memory.

the sheriff also stated "if ATF wanted to talk to Koresh, or take him in" all they had to do was have him (the sheriff) call koresh in. In the past, whenever there'd be a problem, he'd called david koresh and asked him to come down to the sheriff's office and he would. Or they could have picked him up when he jogged, regularly, early AM - that was from the sheriff's mouth - so don't tell me the sheriff knew less than ATF about koresh's habits.

,
I could go on and on - and you will still push your own set of "facts". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but there's only one set of true facts

There was a publication entitled "THE LION" (don't recall the full title) but apparently a monthly newsletter published by an private organization for ATF personnel. Find the issues from the months after WACO and read the letters written in by retired ATF agents regarding what took place at Waco. Bob Brown, of SOF, published a number of them in his magazine. Not requotes, but actual images of the articles in their original print form.

that's all i am going to say on this subject - the last time you and i got into it, my blood pressure stayed too high for too long. Just recalling Waco raises my BP.

You can defend atf's action at waco all you want, but waco was one of the most disgraceful acts by my gov't that i'm aware of, both on ATF's part and the FBI's. Stating that the negative image of ATF at Waco was only a result of the lies ATF told afterwards is like saying a pig didn't sell for a silk purse cause ATF put the wrong shade of lipstick on it -

Question (rhetorical) : why would ATF need to lie about Waco afterwards, if it was justifiable and they action honorable?

PS - not sure how that icon of a frowning yellow sun with sunglasses got in there - can't seem to remove it -

Ralph,
For someone who quotes SOF, you truly are full of shit. Try and get past the fact the media was successfully sued. Did you ever hear about that?

This statement is accurate and truthful but I believe your numbers are conservative. NIBIN was designed to be an investigative tool that developed and supported leads for investigators on the federal, state and local levels. The techniques and technology are incredible but the program has been so poorly managed and robbed from over the past few years that it is yet another example of how management incompetence can ruin a very good thing.

Dobyns is still a NIBIN Regional Coordinator. My suggestion is he tells congress about this good program being horribly mismanaged by ATF. At a time when the US Govt is trying to save money, ATF wastes millions that could be used to improve the program and agency. AD Holgate should be held personally responsible. I would love to see HQ explain how they have managed this program to congress.

Sandy,

Always believing there is a bright side in everything;

Those three weeks could be used to coordinate and exposure of the things needing changed. If even a portion of that time were used it would be using their policy to give you time to expose what needs exposing.

I say use it to your advantage.

I dare say anyone in the industry speaks up we get a lot more that three weeks unpaid leave to live with. We coordinate, agents do the same. Now we do it together, simple. Not so simple for current ATF management to deal with.

Len Savage

Under FLSA rules, you would be prohibited from doing anything related to work. Answering your phone, getting on your computer, etc.. Len, I know you have had trouble with Industry Ops, but the criminal enforcement side of ATF (they guys you don't deal with), prosecute more violent criminals than any other federal agency. More jail time per criminal. Convicted felons with guns committing violent crimes. I don't think anyone has a problem with that part of ATF's mission. Without money for buys, informants, mission critical funding, these prosecutions will plummet. HQ will continue on and nothing will change until someone comes in and either abolishes ATF or cleans out the upper management.

Pinacolada,

It sounds like some DIO/Area Sups unique interpretation of instructions. I've been told by IOI's who worked for DAD McCabe when he was a DIO he had the exact same policy but if you finished your assignments and traveled home without staying overnight he never said a word, because it saved the Bureau money. He just didn't want IOIs spending most of their shift driving or running up milage on personal vehicles by driving back and forth on the same assignment.

Zorro, haven't a clue what ATF's mission is in Denmark but i'm willing to "take one for the team" and go on a fact finding mission...

A little bird told me that ATF Lab Services is still running NIBIN into the ground. Wasted another $400,000 by not shutting down over 30 sites they already agreed needed to be shut down. Wasted $450,000 the previous quarter by not getting around to shutting down the sites they already agreed on shutting down. That is $850,000 in the past six months pissed away. Over $20,000,000 in the past two years wasted on sites that don't produce and everyone agrees needs to be shut down. I heard that Risenhoover complained to DOJ IG and they did nothing. It is only a matter of time till they go after him. The government is broke and ATF can't be bothered to save $20,000,000. NIBIN is a great program and works well in big cities. No one listens and keeps on driving the bus into the river. Why????

http://www.greatfoundationinc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15%3Avanessa-mclemore&catid=2&Itemid=2
How much you want to bet she is getting tax payer dollars through her LLC? That would be worth knowing.

http://www.scribd.co...essa-McLemore-1

Holy Crap! She lied to OIG several times during her career and wasn't prosecuted, much less promoted. Seriously! I had no idea until I just read the OIG report the crap she pulled and lied about. Retired with full benefits and brags about her career. This is outrageous.

I had a feeling this would be a popular thread.

I've been hearing 'outrageous Vanessa stories' for over 20 years now. Maybe someone could just post a bullet list of her career highlights, and if it gets too lengthy, we can start a separate thread? I hardly think it's fair to leave her out just because no one wants to tackle such a big job. Come on folks, let's not get lazy.

Ditto on Eleanor.

Also, would someone please verify for me that Eleanor was indeed appointed to "Ethics Attorney". I read that somewhere, but I'm guessing that the poster was just being sarcastic. But then again, we are talking about Medusa, so anything is possible.

I don't want to post slander or gossip. I think we can take a little time and post accurate, verified information. I was stunned to see how much information from the OIG report was available on Vanessa. This only involved the time she was the SAC of Atlanta. I still remember we she put out a email while the SAC of Houston stating she was tired of her supervisor in Houston looking "like corporate white america." Problem was, there was only one white male in management for the entire Houston division. She stopped a qualified candidate from getting the job and he sued successfully for her racism. Her punishment was a transfer. I have no idea what Vince supposedly has done, real or fiction, in his career to piss off HQ so badly. One thing is clear, there is no way he has done as much crap as Vanessa was found to have done and she still got promoted and was allowed to retire with honor.

There are a couple of people in ATF that have pulled so much crazy stuff we could set up a topic on each of them.
1. Matt Horace
2. Dick Chase
3. Vanessa McLemore
4. Kelvin Crenshaw
5. John Torres
6. Joe Gordon
7. Larry Ford